Proverbs. Enough said.

Jenni - posted on 06/18/2012

Marie- "Secondly, the Bible teaches if parents spare the rod we spoil the child. This does not mean BEAT the child black and blue. But we are to spank them when needed and steer our children in the right direction."



-- I know some Christians who would disagree with your interpretation and who believe the Bible is merely referring to discipline and correction which does not necessarily have to be "spanking" them. The Bible also advises parents to have their unruly children stoned. It should hardly be the "go to" for modern parenting.



"If a parent see their child doing wrong and does nothing to correct them, there isn't much love there."



I do agree with you here but discipline and correction does not have to include methods that infringe on their rights to bodily integrity. This group is dedicated to just that, respectful methods of discipline.



"The Word also teach parents to train up a child in the right way, and that child will not depart from those ways. They may slightly stray as they get older; but you can rest assure they will come back to what they were taught."



Now this is just not true in all cases. I have known many adults who were raised in very strict Christian homes but have come to the conclusion that they do not believe the god they were raised with exists.



"My final comment: Build up your bank account; you'll need it to post bond over and over if you fail to spank and train your child while he/she is still young enough to discipline. By the time they reach high school, its too late to teach the dos and don'ts."



Now that was quite insulting and unfounded. The moms in this group pay very close attention to the discipline of their children. They just know that you don't have to hit your child to discipline them. Not to mention 90% of the prison population were spanked as children.



Spanking does not teach, spanking is simply a negative deterrent. If you do not utilize the most important discipline method, teaching your child *why* they shouldn't engage in negative behaviours by letting them experience those negative consequences, they will reach an age where spanking no longer is an effect negative behaviour deterrent and they will do as they please or learn to avoid being caught. As a child, I simply learned to lie convincingly to avoid being spanked. I don't want that for my children. I want them to learn that negative choices will have *real* negative results, not to obey for fear of retaliation of an authority figure, but to truly understand why it's best to choose positive choices over negative ones. That when they make a good decision they will be reward for it with natural occurring rewards and when they make a poor choice that results will be negative.



IMO, spanking is the easy way out of discipline. It takes much more work, involvement and consistency to truly teach your children the virtues of being good people and model citizens but it is a challenge I am willing to accept because my children are worth the effort. I don't want to raise children who mindlessly obey authority figures for fear of physical violence on their person.



I am a very strict parent who has high expectations and plenty of boundaries for my children. I have seen positive behaviour strategies work absolute wonders on my children. I have 3 wonderful children who get along famously together, are very well-behaved in public and in the home, are well-mannered and who will very articulately explain why they shouldn't make a particular poor choice. Children do not exit the womb knowing how to properly behave in the adult world, we must teach them through; role modelling, role playing, natural and logical consequences (consequences that teach a direct lesson about a particular behaviour) for negative behaviours, how to properly vent and express their emotions, discussions, verbal correction, clear boundaries and rewarding them for hard work.

Marie - posted on 06/15/2012

kelly the Bible says people will be without excuse for not believing in God. I'm not sure what kind of Bible you are reading,but the Word does not contradict itself. If you sincerely ask God first for forgiveness and accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you can ask Him to open up your understanding and He will. Secondly, the Bible teaches if parents spare the rod we spoil the child. This does not mean BEAT the child black and blue. But we are to spank them when needed and steer our children in the right direction. If a parent see their child doing wrong and does nothing to correct them, there isn't much love there. That's just like telling them to break the law as they get older its okay. The Word also teach parents to train up a child in the right way, and that child will not depart from those ways. They may slightly stray as they get older; but you can rest assure they will come back to what they were taught. My final comment: Build up your bank account; you'll need it to post bond over and over if you fail to spank and train your child while he/she is still young enough to discipline. By the time they reach high school, its too late to teach the dos and don'ts.

Chatty - posted on 09/19/2010

I'm glad your journey led you here, Jenny.

Jenny - posted on 09/19/2010

Let the "biblical spankers" be! lol
I agree with you that if we go by the book of proverbs we should also go by the book of deutronomy. But these twisted people always have a reasoning for their beliefs. My parents are just like your mum. And they would be like "of course we wouldnt take our kids to be stoned at the city gates...thats cleary something that was done in those times and God gave us some brains to know better now. We dont take the whole bible litterally." Its the whole not seeing the log in your own eye and like someone else on here mentioned its all about "cherry picking" verses to justify things that have been done "traditionally".
I too have the urge to confront every believer that sticks to the whole "spare the rod, spoil the child" misguided biblical belief. But it can over consume me and it makes me bitter.
I try to recognise that i did not always believe the way i do now, and maybe in years to come i will believe differently again. I believed in spanking because i thought it was biblical. but i have now been exposed to the other side of the argument and opened my way of thinking and can now see that i was misguided. however this was a journey. Everybody is on a different journey. And is passionate about a different thing at different times. We need to be more accepting of others, they havent gone through what we have that has gotten us to this belief. We shouldnt try to enforce our belief on them just as we dont like when they try to do that to us.

We should just live by example, and hopefully people will ask us for advice when they go through difficulties with disciplining their children and thats when we will have an opportunity to show them our way with kind gentle words that will speak to their soul and heal them from their hurtful guilty ways of spanking. lol.
something like that.
Hope this gives you some peace in your heart :)

Sheryl - posted on 09/19/2010

well i have to say i was one of those bible spankers but i read more and more and talk to people. know i do look to the lord for how to handle thing with my kids. plus i also take into count what my son thap. for his sensory processing says. do i think it right no but i hate to say it alot of us grow up that way and it is easy to fall back on even when we know we are wrong. i find we even has adult have to teach are self selfcontrol. plus taking into count what i feel the lord would have me do. not all of us christain are that way. that what i got from your frist post but that ok . it seem like your where just upset. so it sound like it just came out wrong.maybe if people talk to those people in a different way just maybe like my case where someone juat talk to me instead of getting upset with me. but i do understand where the fust. can come from when you feel so strongly against it. alot of us christain just look to the bible or god in genral for help. we look to are faith for help on how to do thing alot of the time. the right way even though sometime we may be reading wrong or taking in the wrong way. i hope you are not angry with me just was giving my view on this. maybe it would help you talk to other have that view on things.

Chatty - posted on 09/18/2010

I totally agree, Karen but unfortunately there are so many Christians that don't see things as you do. One of THE most common arguments in a 'spanking' debate is religion, the Bible and proverbs like these. At least we're talking about it, right? Progress not perfection!

Karen - posted on 09/18/2010

I just wanted to make the point that some Christians - myself included - are thouroughly in the non-spanking camp. Also, I think the metaphor of shepherding our children is not to be taken very literally. We aren't to treat our children exactly like sheep. I think the idea is about gently guiding our children along, helping them avoid danger and looking out for what's best for them.
To answer Becky's original post, we aren't supposed to take one verse out of the Bible and apply it blindly disregarding all others - that's an abuse of God's word for sure. The Bible should be read as a whole, in context and with careful thought. In my opinion, there's more in the Bible showing that positive discipline strategies are within God's plans for the family, as opposed to punishements.

Becky - posted on 09/18/2010

Dawna, you SHOULD be responding to more thiings online, because that response was awesome :) Seriously, I feel the same way, and you make some great points! I have argued this point several times online and with my mother, but I haven't taken on any other christians. I wish that when I do (I'm sure it will happen eventually) I could have you by my side ;-)

Charlie - posted on 09/18/2010

Ive been on an internet holiday Dana but i missed you too lol.

Dawna - posted on 09/18/2010

see, now, the ridiculous length of that response is exactly why i shouldn't be responding to things online. perhaps you can tell i have deep-seated issues with the topic.

Dawna - posted on 09/18/2010

It's been my experience that Christians that use the Bible to defend their use of spanking will immediately begin backpedalling and dodging the issue if I ask things llike, "Does that mean you think it is OK to beat your wife? Or, do you think your husband should also be allowed to marry a second wife (while still married to you) if you are unable to bear him a male child?" I have found, and not because I know every Christian, so my data is flawed, that those who argue the most for this honestly seem incapable of understanding that there are other ways to 'discipline', or they are completely unwilling to take extra time to actually parent their children. Discipline is a term wrongly used by most to only mean hit or force someone to abide by your will. In fact, it means something more along the line of 'provide the structure and example neccessary to teach the difference between right and wrong' in order to encourage the child to grow up making socially accepted 'correct' decisions.

I have a few problems with the Bible's use of shepherd imagery to tell us how to behave, especially as parents. First, most people don't understand that the rod and staff were used to guide the animals out of harm's way and possibly to attack animals that would harm the sheep, not to beat the sheep themselves. Second, if a shepherd felt it was necessary to beat a sheep to keep it in line, that was most likely because it was not possible for him to actually teach the sheep through communication and example, since sheep are not intelligent humans. Justifying beating an animal to save its life is easier, since they are not as intelligent, and according to Christians, have no souls. However, children are not dumb, soulless animals. (Please no PETA inspired responses, I love animals and am very much against any abuse of them, and I don't believe in souls, so they are on even ground as far as I'm concerned.) Third, shepherds are meant to train a flock to listen and avoid danger, not to teach them lifelong lessons on how to become self-sufficient. In fact, a shepherd would be putting himself out of a job if he did that. Parents, however, should strive to see their children some day leave home and carry on all by themselves; which requires teaching them to be able to make decisions for themselves, not teaching them to blindly follow every order given to them. Children learn most by following our example. Parents who are more concerned with forcing their children to submit to every command than raising an independent, capable adult seem to be less inclined to take time to try a more positive technique, especially if their children's personality types make them submit to their parents' will at the threat or use of violence. What these parents don't seem to grasp is that the child is really only learning that right and wrong are whatever does or doesn't piss off mom and dad, and they are learning that as adults, if they are in a position of power, they have the right to exert their will over others, even if that means hitting them.

Now, I'm mainly talking about parents who spank their children for every offense, or let them run wild until they finally cross the invisible line that angers mom or dad enough to warrant a sound whipping. These parents don't use their chosen form of 'discipline' to teach lessons, they just assume the kid will know why they got hit and behave accordingly next time. The problem here is that the kid never really connects what was wrong about what they did with the punishment they received.

Anyway, before I rant on forever and make even less sense than I already have, I will point out that I do know some Christians who have very firm rules for how they spank, when and why. I don't think these parents are abusive or bad parents, just misguided, in my humble opionion. They seem convinced that in some cases their child will only be able to connect the bad behavior to the desired postive change in behavior by being hit. I'm not sure how the brain works, but I don't think it generally travels down to the butt area to learn the major lessons of life. I will also admit that I have spanked, and always in times when I was stressed and/or at a loss and fell back on how I was raised. In no instance did spanking achieve the desired result. My child not only did not correct her behaviour in a positive manner, but she added new and exciting negative ones to her repertoire. Sure, some kid out there may only be capapble of learning by being hit, but I haven't met him yet. I have, however, met lots of parents who'd rather spend time at a bar, watching tv or playing video games than take a few minutes to get to know their child and brainstorm positive ways of disciplining them instead of just spanking them.

As for answering the question, I think we are supposed to listen to Proverbs because it suits the will of those who choose to spank, and for no other reason. If our society still saw stoning as acceptable, we'd listen to that part, too. One big reason I'm not Christian, despite having been raised in a very strict, Pentecostal family, is my perceived hypocrisy of the 'pick-and-choose' use of scriptures to justify very un-Christlike behaviours.

Chatty - posted on 09/17/2010

Loureen, where have you been? I've missed you....were you gone for a few days?

Charlie - posted on 09/17/2010

this is the exact argument i had in a spanking thread about spare the rod BS , i will try to find it ad post it .

Riana - posted on 09/16/2010

LOL Becky I tend to use stong words when things are important to me when generally speaking I like to think that this is not my arguing "style" or at least I try to make a consious effort for it not to be.

I try to respect that some people need religious practices to find God, while I just don't. I try to find "soft" words to explain it but my general anoyance with the violence and fear and treats and negativity of it all always shines through LOL so have posted a link to a song insteads that words it all very well - for me.



(sorry but don't know how to link the video) It is Just Jinjer - What He Means

...peace, love, more tolerance, faith, hope trust in the same god in whose name we die for, take an innocent life for - thats not what he means and it doesn't matter what book you read ...

Chatty - posted on 09/15/2010

I never said I don't believe. I'm just not sure what!

Becky - posted on 09/15/2010

Riana, lets not worry about the safe side, LOL! I am struggling with my own beliefs. I know what I want to believe, and what I do believe to a certian extent, but I agree that I hate they way people USE religion to justify things like spanking and worse. I'd be interested to hear more on your view ;-)

Riana - posted on 09/15/2010

Religion is like parenting for me - something that I feel very strongly about and therefore as a general rule try to avoid discussing as I am likely to end up in a argument either way :-) So if you were wondering if I've been avoiding posting an answer then yes I have.

So to be on the safe side I will only say this – I am not religious at all (ie churches, bibles, preachers, prayers ect ect) I hate the way that religion uses fear to try and intimidate people ** lots and lots of tying, lots and lots of deleting ** but for the life of me I am not able to look into my sons baby blue eyes and say to myself "There is no God".

All I am saying is people tend to look for God in all the wrong places…

Chatty - posted on 09/14/2010

That's awesome, I've never heard that!

Becky - posted on 09/14/2010

I like what Gandhi said. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I'm not saying I don't like Christians, I do, most of them anyway, but I get what Gandhi was saying for sure!

Danielle - posted on 09/14/2010

@Kelly

I was raised in a Christian home, went to church, chapel, Bible Study, if it was a Christian thing to do I did it. And while I never had a negative experience in all of it, I got so burnt out. It took years but I figured out why. I was trying to be a Christian, but not trying to get to know the God I was doing everything for. It was a lot of reexamining and I'm still in process. So I suggest just trying to get to know God. Christianity is just a collection of rules put together by crazies if you don't believe there is a Powerful Loving God behind it. Its not trying to be like a Christian, its trying to be like God.

Anyway, thats totally off the original topic of the thread. Hopefully I 'll be back with something relevant. =]

Becky - posted on 09/14/2010

Thanks Dana! I try not to usually sound SO judgemental, but dang it, this topic burns my butt. No pun intended. :)

Chatty - posted on 09/14/2010

Stop aplogizing, seriously! We ♥ you!

Becky - posted on 09/14/2010

Oh, and I know it says "discipline him diligently" but why does discipline equal hitting? I discipline my kids, but I don't smack them.



There's several ways to look at this. 1. The rod is not an instrument to do harm but a symbol of guidance, as the shepherds used. If a "rod" was harmful, then "thy rod and staff" certainly wouldn't "comfort me." 2. If Solomon really is referring to a literal rod used for beating, is this truly meant to be taken literally? Consider this verse: Proverbs 23:1-2 reads: "When you sit down to dine with a ruler, Consider carefully what is before you, And put a knife to your throat If you are a man of great appetite." 3. Again, if this is literal, and these are God's very instructions, why twist them around? Isn't turning "beat with rod" into "spank with open hand on butt" a bit of a twist of God's word and therefore sort of ungodly? Oh yeah, because if you beat them with a rod, that would be abuse. But wait...so God doesn't want you to abuse your children then? Can we make the leap a little further and say He doesn't want us to hit them period? Apparently not, because that would be inconvenient. But I digress. 4. These are, to my understanding, the words of Solomon and not Jesus. What Jesus teaches is clearly marked in the Bible, I do believe. What Jesus taught seems to be quite against violence and more in favor of gentleness.



Either way you slice it, it doesn't add up for me.



Again, my graded nerves over this issue are showing. My apologies.



My own mother uses this "spanking is in the Bible" hogwash to try to change my mind on the issue. Thus, the sore spot!

Becky - posted on 09/14/2010

You know, after going back and re-reading my original post, my annoyed mood certainly was shining through there. Sorry! LOL! I didn't mean for that to sound as snarky as it did.

Chatty - posted on 09/13/2010

THIS THREAD IS AWESOME! A lil' spice in our nice, for sure. I'm tired too Riana so I'm headed to bed also.

To be continued...

Riana - posted on 09/13/2010

Will post you a reply tomorrow as I must run now. xxx

Kelly - posted on 09/13/2010

LOVE that quote Riana!!! I'm painting it now :)



I WANT to be a Christian, really, really badly, and I've been trying for roughly the past year and half. Unfortunately, I am so friggin' turned around and confused, I don't know which way is up anymore (and apparently that's where Heaven is, so I need to figure that one out :P).

I go to Church, I pray, and I try to believe in God, but there are sooooo many contradictions in the Bible that I don't even know the beliefs, much less how to practice them! (The big one bothering me right now is that I cannot 'make' myself believe in something I don't believe in, as much as I would like to, I don't REALLY believe in God. Thus, I feel like I'm lying when I say "Yes, I'm a Christian." because I know a big part of being a Christian is actually believing in God--and lying is a big no-no. BUT, there is a verse that says that if you say you do not believe in God, he will deny you in Heaven and you are not really a Christian.....so I don't want to say that I don't believe in God, but if I say I do, I'm lying. )

I'm really close to giving up. So, back to the subject at hand. I don't know why only certain parts of the Bible are followed, but I do know that discipline does not mean beat your kid into submission. I've been seeing those too, and they didn't bother me at first, every one I know spanks except for myself, but what irks me is that they are so closed minded to new ideas. Sure, not spanking takes a little more thought and effort, but it is more effective......blah, I'm about to go off on another tangent...

Riana - posted on 09/13/2010

Hi Nanette, welcome and great to have you here! Like you I agree that spankings is fine when justified my problem is only that I have yet to find a valid justification ;-)

Becky my worst proverb is "Bend the tree while it is young; when it is old it is too late." ???!!!??? What? That comment just always gets to me. Like there is something wrong with all children and we need to fix them before it is too late?

My favourite quote however is: "All parents damage their children. It cannot be helped. Youth, like pristine glass, absorbs the prints of its handlers. Some parents smudge, others crack, a few shatter childhoods completely into jagged little pieces, beyond repair."
— Mitch Albom (The Five People You Meet in Heaven)

I love this quote firstly because it comes down to it being impossible to be a perfect parent and secondly because I love how he refers to children as fragile as glass, they are the most perfect little beings to start with we should strive to enhance their beauty and curiosity and individualism - not bend it!

LOL just thought I would share this highly opinionated random point of view.

Nanette - posted on 09/13/2010

The spare the rod spoil the child is not in the bible, but the concept is there. Proverbs 13:24 He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

I was spanked as a child and I do not believe I was abused! I am not for or against spanking. I am still deciding. I do believe that children these days need to be disciplined and many children aren't. I believe that some offenses should be timeout, or grounded or privileges taken away, I also think that spanking is for somethings. depends on the offense in my eyes.

Cathy - posted on 09/13/2010

Discipline is teaching not beating a kid into submission!

JuLeah - posted on 09/12/2010

the 'Spare the rod' line.... it is not even in the bible. The line going around on fb is funny really, cause most folks in jail were abused as kids