What’s with Time Outs?

Dawn - posted on 07/09/2010

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have gotten a lot out of this thread. As with Rliana, I realize that I am not anti-spanking, but anti-negative behavior strategies! Thanks again!

Becky - posted on 07/09/2010

Bingo! Well said Riana! I have really loved this thread. =)

Riana - posted on 07/09/2010

I want to thank you ladies for partisipating so positively in this post, I think I started it out of frustration that people criticise my parenting methods when in fact they have no idea what my parenting methods are. I feel it is unfair to comment on something you don't understand. But surprisingly that was not the problem, like Mylene said I know what I believe I just have trouble defining it. So I can't justify it to someone else because I have not thought it through carefully enough. All your comments and input has helped me organise things in my mind so thanks a million!

It's like a light has gone on, I realise now that I am not anti-smacking, I'm anti-negative behaviour strategies, and (thanks Becky) I can also now understand the exact difference. The difference lies in the emotion. The moment you or the child feels de-valued then you are busy with negative behaviour strategies. If you make the child feel bad anout who they are them you have done it wrong! (It is impossible to experience positive emotions during smacking or screaming or name calling ect ect ect)

Positive behaviour strategies empowers a child. We do not ignore dissipline we just empower them to solve their own problems.

So as Becky said the situation could have gone just the same way but if it was accompanied by negative comments ie. you have to get chores as a result of doing something wrong then the child would have resented the chore resented you and resented himself. But as your comments were uplifting and left a choice he willingly did the chores, loves you and feels great about himself! Thats the difference.

Chatty - posted on 07/08/2010

Sweet dreams!

Nicole - posted on 07/08/2010

Yup yup! William has taken to throwing his food lately when he is all done instead of telling us like he had been for the past 3 months much to my frustration.
So now I just have him help clean up the floor when he throws food. This seems to be have slowed his food throwing and slowly he is returning to telling us he is finished instead of dumping it on the floor.

Natural consequences when you can allow them to happen are best. Finding a consequence that best fits the action when you can't use a natural one is also far better then punishment.

I am too tired to parse coherent thoughts together so I shall just leave it there.

:)

Chatty - posted on 07/08/2010

Absolutely....I LOVE that you shared that Becky! I would have done the same thing! Life has natural consequences and I'm a firm believer that the "punishment" or consequence has to fit the "crime"....Roxanne draws on the walls....Roxanne helps mommy clean the walls! Roxanne throws her toys,......mommy takes away Roxanne's toys! It's all about teaching our children how the real world works! Time-outs are just a moment to gather your thoughts and calm down.....then the real work begins! ;)

Jaime - posted on 07/08/2010

Becky I think you bring up some great points! I don't think your teachable moment was a punishment at all...if your four-year-old was able to understand that the consequence for playing with the can was that he would have to buy it and work for the money first, then in my opinion that was absolutely acceptable. It's not as if you forced actions upon him to get a desired result, you took an opportunity to teach him about the consequences of his actions rather than punishing him for his curiosity.

Becky - posted on 07/08/2010

Ya know, there is a fine line between "punishment" and "consequence." Not so much between the real things but between the perceptions in people's minds of them.

Here's an example. The other day, my almost 4 year old was playing with a can of pressurized air at the bank while I was talking to a friend. I asked him not to do so, but he felt inclined to do it anyway. It wasn't a huge deal, but I saw a teachable moment, so I told him he'd need to buy her a can back and asked how he'd earn the money. He said he'd do chores, and so he did. He sprayed and wiped down the bathroom sink, kitchen table, and high chair. I gave him $1 for doing so, and he took it back to my friend at the bank. Now, would some see my having him do chores to pay for that as punishment? Probably.

I, being a positive discipline mommy, know the difference (most of the time) between a consequence and a punishment, because these are terms I've come across in my research and in my positive parenting books, but I don't know if "negative behaviour strategy" parents understand the difference.

To me, if there's not a logical consequence for something, then rest time is a perfectly acceptable "consequence." Punishment would be locking him in his room after yelling at him and making him feel bad about himself.

I have no idea where I'm going with this post. lol. It was just on my mind ;-)

Riana - posted on 07/08/2010

LOL problem is I'm not really like that either, I'm acttually and fairly average normal responsible person I just don't mind being labled as irresponsible and fun loving LOL for some reason I hate being labled as serious and responsible even though I am (most of the time).

I'm just in a good mood today and not feeling very argumentative :-)

Jaime - posted on 07/08/2010

Riana, I think it's awesome that you are so confident in your parenting strategies. If you are a nature-loving hippie then that is who you are. My only grievance with hippies is patchouli...blech! LOL...other than that, kick off your shoes and run through corn fields! I am kinda in between. I love being barefoot and I love nature. I want my son to enjoy the outdoors and I'm slowly learning how to create my own outdoor, backyard oasis for us! I want to be involved in my life...not just getting up and getting through the day...does that make sense?

You don't need to convince anyone here of your intentions. You sound like an amazing, confident, involved, loving mother to some pretty awesome kids...can't ask for more than that!

Riana - posted on 07/08/2010

Jess I agree that the world think I'm a nature loving hippie that lets my kids run wild, problem is that I LIKE this LOL at least my kids know how to run - even if wildly but I prfer that to them sitting in the corner while life passes by! LOL

Point taken however that if your trying to convince people that there are better ways and means then a anti dissipline post will certainly not be in your favor.

But I am done (for today at least) trying to convince people, I love the interaction I have with my children and I do not feel the need to validate myself anymore.

Thanks for the chat ladies, I definately feel less frustrated with the world and their ways (even if I don't agree with them) and more sure of and able to enjoy my own choices.

Jaime - posted on 07/08/2010

I agree Jess...but punishment is usually reserved for something heinous like murder (prison or death)...kids don't require punishment and most adults don't either. We face consequences in the work place or at home if we say or do something stupid that offends or upsets someone else, but we're not usually punished for it. I do think that we stress discipline in this community and try to steer away from 'punishment' because self-discipline needs to be embraced and used by everyone eventually in order to succeed through life.

Jess - posted on 07/07/2010

I think half our battle with Positive Behaviour Strategies is that people expect us to be nature loving hippie's with Kids that run wild ! I think we need to be careful not say that we choose not to discipline or punish our children because thats exactly what the wider community think we are choosing.

The reality of life is there are consequences for actions and schools and employer's will punish bad behaviour and we aren't doing our children any favours if we don't prepare them for that. We have to do it in a positive way but they need to know that for every action there is an equal or greater reaction. I want my daughter to know that bad behaviour won't be accepted.

Nicole - posted on 07/07/2010

There isn't much for me to add here that hasn't already been said.

And we will slowly get this world pointed toward Positive behaviour strategies. Groups like this are the starting points.

:)

Becky - posted on 07/07/2010

Here's my take on it. Time outs, like anything else, can be abused. They are useful as a cool off, separate the kid from the situation type of thing, but they don't have any real teaching value. In other words, time outs are not punishment, in my mind, unless done excessively and for every offense. Rather, the "punishment" to the child comes from the parent relying on the time out to do the teaching and not showing the child appropriate behaviors.

Jaime - posted on 07/07/2010

grassroots...good point Dana!

Chatty - posted on 07/07/2010

Start from the ground up...build a foundation!

Cathy - posted on 07/07/2010

I agree. I think all these Supernanny type shows are to blame. They show kids with NO discipline and an extreme method is used to bring them back into line. Reality wise If you ever get to the stage of needing to enforce timeouts as the only method to control your kids then you're failing somewhere else, just like parents who resort to regular spankings. I only use time outs on my eldest as a cooling down period for him.

I'm firm, pretty strict compared to most parents I know, but I also give my kids lots of positive praise. It's not very often they require punishment. With my 7 year old, normally just knowing he's upset me is enough for an apology, and it's a genuine apology not a robotic programmed response.

Jaime - posted on 07/07/2010

You too Riana!...except it's only 11am here in Ontario LOL.

Riana - posted on 07/07/2010

Makes sense to me Dana, mostly kids learn from their own mistakes (same as we do) if they are repeatedly making the same mistake then they might need a little guidence. But I say if they are first time offenders let it go and move on to what challenges tomorrow might bring!

Heading home now to hubby and kids. Have a great evening!

Jaime - posted on 07/07/2010

No, it makes sense Dana. I think though that when it comes to repeated biting, kicking, hitting or pushing, the aggressive behaviour is a call for attention or frustration. Some people don't know how to properly channel their anger and frustration...namely kids. If we hit or pinch or punch them back to try and prove that it's not nice behaviour then out point is moot because we are the models for behaviour and if we can't find a better way to show the that biting is not good, then how can we expect them to? As for random chance, I agree...everyone makes mistakes...it's how we learn. If we were perfect at it the first time around we wouldn't need schools or education. Usually if mistakes are repeated it's due to lack of education or communication. So instead of reprimanding a child/adult for their mistake, find a way to make it less likely to happen again.

Chatty - posted on 07/07/2010

I LOVE what your brother had to say! ....and your dad too! What a sweetheart! I totally agree. I get so frustrated when I hear people saying, " When Sally bit Johnny, I bit Sally and Sally NEVER bit Johnny again!".....REALLY? Or perhaps it was impossible for her to bite Johnny again because he was some random kid walking thru the mall! Gah...



I hope I don't sound totally silly with my anology? It makes sense in my head......RANDOM CHANCE.....I'm the queen of random! lmao

Mylene - posted on 07/07/2010

Thanks Riana, I'll look into it.

Jaime - posted on 07/07/2010

Riana I think it's awesome that you are so close with your brother and your parents are cool people...which let's face it--parents in general are the enemy! LOL

I too lose my temper and have been known to yell at Gray...this is what I'm currently working on...I lose my temper because I'm frustrated or tired or whatever...but it's not Gray's fault I can't control my behaviour. I have a long way to go I think but I'm always looking for new strategies to help keep me on track. Thanks for posting this conversation...I think this will be of great benefit to our community!

Riana - posted on 07/07/2010

Dana you might recall from another conversation how I referred to my brother as my soul mate and the person who best understands me in the world, I send him a copy of this conversation and here is what he came back with:

“Very cool - really liked the post. I read an interesting book called ‘The drunkard’s walk’ (it’s actually all about randomness) and they had an interesting piece regarding ‘Positive Behaviour Strategies’

During a seminar at a flight school they got on to the topic of ‘Positive Behaviour Strategies’ versus ‘Negative Behaviour strategies’ (ie. being punished for doing something wrong). Everyone was for negative behaviour strategies coming up with lots of examples of errors made by pilots that were reprimanded (shouted at) and that then never made the same mistake again afterwards. And therefore they felt that they had proved the point that negative behaviour strategies works. The writer then came back and said: Wait a minute what your are describing is 100% expected from random behaviour. In other words an average person is almost guaranteed to make a mistake at some point mostly due to random chance. But based on the laws of randomness the chances of the average person making the same mistake again is very unlikely. All your screaming and shouting basically comes down to nothing other than making you look stupid. It’s only in your mind that you feel you have achieved something.”

My dad’s comments was: ‘When I read this it reminds me of why I love you both so very dearly.’

Just thought I would share this with you  I like the way he refers to ‘Negative behaviour strategies’. I have never thought about it this way but I like the term. I think a lot of times when we try to control our children we use negative behaviour strategies to try and force them into listening to us as opposed to guiding them into being better people and that sums up perfectly what I am against in terms of parenting.

So it is not really time outs that I am opposed to it is negative behaviour strategies. I think they are counter productive and does nothing other than make you look like a fool and feel terrible about yourself.

By this I’m not pretending that I have never lost my temper (I am a very stubborn person with an equally stubborn 9yo daughter). I just like reminding myself what my ideals are…

Jaime - posted on 07/07/2010

I think it's great that the PET program exists...it would be even better if it was more widely accepted so that people can realize the true value in positive discipline strategies. I know that it's not easy to maintain a calm, stressless demeanor when dealing with chaotic situations, but if people are consistent and actively try to change their own behaviours, they will notice a difference in only a short time, and that will eventually be followed by compliance on the part of the children. It's never going to be 100% because the point is never to control the actions of a child, but merely to help them learn to control their actions...because they are children they will make many mistakes and that's when they need some redirection or time to reflect...but certainly never punishment.

Chatty - posted on 07/07/2010

Thanks for the resources, Riana!

Riana - posted on 07/07/2010

LOL Jaime, that has happened to me twice and I can't even blame it on the kids as they are not in my office :-)

Mylene have a look at the following: The Parent Effectiveness Training (PET) program was created in 1962 by award-winning psychologist and three-time Nobel Peace Prize Nominee, Dr. Thomas Gordon. Gordon Training International (GTI) was established by Dr. Thomas Gordon, and his Parent Effectiveness Training program was the first skills based parenting program in the world. It is the most successful parenting program in the world - more than 1 million people in 43 countries have benefited from the skills. Please refer to http://www.gordontraining.com/parentingc...

The course in Parent Effectiveness Training (PET) focuses on teaching parents practical communication skills to assist them in their parenting, whether they're the parent of a toddler or a teenager.

My parents did this course about 27 years ago in South Africa, I always thought it was my fathers iniciative as he believes hart and soul in positive parenting, but my mom now (jokingly) say its because I was the most stubburn child on earth and impossible to deal with without a mannual *giggels* more honestly she says it was because the more she punished me as a todler the more I hated her and the less co-operative I became (surprise surprise) so she realised that there had to be some changes in our house and so she enrolled for this course, first on our own and later with my dad. Not sure it has done much for my stubborness but I love and respect my mom more that anyone in the world and I think this counts :-)

Jaime - posted on 07/07/2010

I had a response typed out and then Gray hit the mouse and I lost the page...I'll come back to this when he goes for his nap.

Riana - posted on 07/07/2010

PS - think I shoud print out a copy for my husband to read also ;-)

Riana - posted on 07/07/2010

Absolutely agreed Jamie, I think that is why I started off with saying that I'm not entirely against time outs. In the way that you describe it time out is used as a tool to positively influence future interaction and behaviour, it them becomes part of posivive parenting.

I just sometimes find it frustrating (and no offence ment to anyone) that generally parents only start looking for an alternative once spanking does not work, and they then start hopping from one form of punishment to the next with little or no success and will then in frustration tell you that time outs doesn't work either.

There is no quick fix. As a positive parenting mom I don't just send my kids to their room every time something goes wrong and expect that to fix the problem. I work at it every single day!

So I guess what I am getting at is that there is a lot more to it than what meets the eye.

Meghan - posted on 07/06/2010

I have tried time-outs with J and he just doesn't get them yet...so I do think it is really unfair and a form of punishment to use them at this point in time. But once they are old enough to understand and sit and think I don't think that time-outs are punishment. It's a bit of a break to reflect on what they did wrong. I think if done right, they could teach self control as well as give them the oportunity to say "hey, you know what...I need to cool down a bit"

Mylene - posted on 07/06/2010

Agree!

You just summed up the thoughts I've had for the longest time and could not, for the life of me, explain. Thanks, now I'll get my husband to read it too so we can discuss this.

Does anyone have resources about this type of parenting? It's real easy to find info on time outs but not so much when it comes to encouraging good behavior.

Jaime - posted on 07/06/2010

I disagree with your description of time-outs. Time outs are not punishment...at least I don't see them that way. Time out is exactly that. Taking time away from chaos or stress to calm down so that both parent and child can communicate better and solve the issue. Time-out is not meant to be damaging or punitive. I've said it before in the debates that even as adults, when we become stressed or aggitated we should and often do take time away from the situation that is creating or adding to our mood. So for me, the same goes for children. Behaviour doesn't always necessarily need to be stifled. Some kids become angry or frustrated and just want to hit something...usually they end up hitting their sibling, or a friend...but if they were able to positively channel their frustration into hitting a stuffed toy or squeezing some play-doh, then they will have secured an appropriate outlet to vent, rather than be told 'no' and redirected or punished.



I agree that people often contend the opposite of spanking to be time-out, but in most cases it is. There is nothing wrong with taking time away from the frustration. Now if we're talking time-out in terms of being sent to the bedroom and confined for long periods of time...that is more punishment than behaviour strategizing. Kids do need to learn how to come down from their frustration, but an excessive amount of 'idependent reflection' can prove damaging as well. It all comes down to communication really. Children can't learn if they aren't given the tools and we can't give them the tools if we don't know to use them ourselves. Positive behaviour strategies are about recognizing limits and boundaries as much as establishing respect and coping skills.



I absolutely agree that it is our job to guide and teach our children, but I just feel that time-out can be a great benefit when it is used in conjunction with other positive strategies.



So to sum up...I mostly agree with what you said...LOL



Thanks for posting this conversation...it will be interesting to see what others think.

Chatty - posted on 07/06/2010

Agree