Democracy or Theocracy?

Gina - posted on 12/28/2010

Tammy, I love your responses. I homeschool too, and the great thing about homeschooling your kids is that you get more of an education yourself, and it definitely shows with you Tammy. I feel I have learned more in the last 2 years of homeschooling, than I had in all of my years of school. There is so much more history to be learned than what they offer in public schooling.

Rebecca - posted on 12/28/2010

Tammy, I loved your post! And I said it was funny because of the last paragraph...that's hilarious! I hadn't thought of that before! I'm one of the people who previously posted in favor of homeschooling, and I plan on homeschool my kids when they are older, and I think it's a good point: the same people who advocate the public school system think that the products of the public school system are so dumb as to not be able to transfer the same knowledge...priceless!

Tammy - posted on 12/27/2010

OK, finally got to read some more of the posts to find out what transpired "before". Online debating is a tough road, it can go on forever and ever! One thing I did not see mentioned, however, is all of the writings and Congressional Acts by the founding fathers AFTER the Constitution was ratified. Fisher Ames (sp?), who wrote the lanugauge for the First Amendment, is on written record touting the Bibe as THE text book to be used in ALL schooling. The Bible was a textbook in schools until rather recently in the grand sceme of things. Also, there is the funny little historical tid bits about how the Capitol building was turned into a house of worship on Sundays and the Marine Core Band provided the worship music. It's a matter of historical record that our congress used federal funds to promote Christianity throughout the land. They bought Bibles, printed Bibles and bought land and built churches. Christian ones of course. Because while our Constitution does not allow for the official statement of "Our national religion is....." is does allow for the promotion and encouragement of Christianity.



Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was in response to a letter to him from them. They were worried that the new government would do something like England and have an official state denomination. You see, many of the colonies were generally made up of a particular Christian denomination and the Baptists didn't want to be told that they had to be protestants and the Protestants didn't want to be told they had to be Catholic, etc.



The history taught in schools today leaves out anything that might in any way make anyone even think the name of Christ. They also teach a very, very small piece of it. When you think of the Boston Tea Party or why we wanted a revolution what comes to mind? Most people automatically spout "taxation without representation". Because that's the only one taught in schools. That is number 17 in a list of 27 items listed in the Declaration of Independence. Maybe we should start teaching about the other 26?



One note about religion in schools. If you read all the news you'll find that it is only the Christian religion that is being forced out. They aren't just bringing in other religions to "makes things fair". In California fifth graders had to have a class where they took Muslum names, made prayer rugs, had to bow to Mecca AND stage a Jihad through a game.



One note about homeschooling. People who say that a parent can't possibly homeschool and give a good education is basically saying that the public schools in this country are sooo bad that the products of them are rendered incapable of transfering the same information onto someone else. Just saying.:)

Tammy - posted on 12/27/2010

"Seperation of church and state" WOW, this is why I homeschool! There is no such thing in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.It is a red herring. The first amendment clearly states thet congress shall make no law establishing an OFFICIAL, have to be this denomination or nothing else, relifion and it absolutely FORBIDS keeping ANYONE else, including governemtn employees, from exercising their religion. They were trying to avoid another Church of England. Please read the Constitution AND anything written by our founding fathers and don't just take anyone's word for it. We have lost the ability to self educate ourselves as well as giving our children no real education in the schools.

Did anyone hear about the uproar caused in Texas when the new texas board of education had the audacity to say students needed to read the Constitution? This would be why, if you are ignorant of what's in it they can tell you anything about it and you'll believe it.

Tammy - posted on 12/27/2010

I would rather have my republic back! I would ask you, would you rather have a Socialistic society or a Communistic society? Just asking, respectfully:) Right now we are being steamrolled by less than 5% of the population. That is not democratic or majority rule. When the people have voiced thier opinion at the ballot box it is being shoved aside by out of control judges wielding stolen authority. So I hope you're not going under the assumption that what we are experiencing now is in any way democratic.

The only theocracy that would work is one in which God himself reigns (not a sinful creation) which won't be until Jesus comes back so in answer to that part of your question: No, not now.

...and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under God......

Gina - posted on 11/23/2010

Diane, was your post directed to me? Sorry I don't get on here much, but I honestly don't know what you are talking about. From what I have read on your post, I feel the way you do.

Diane - posted on 11/16/2010

This is to ms. g.jensen. ok its not about red or blue. oh the demo want things for free. rep. want if you work for it you deserve it dont look life the easy way. ok i am so sorry to tell you but a christian we do all things in the eyes of the LORD. so i do switch i can be a rep.or dem. but if one says vote for abortion i will switch real quick cause GOD dont believe in abortion.homesexual. i live in texas and i dont agree with or mayor. she is gay. its not judging. i respect her and love my love neighbor. but i dont agree with a gay mayor. hope you understand. cause on your post was very scarrrry :)

Christa - posted on 11/15/2010

Laura, I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Who's teaching anyone's children Christianity? I've already answered your question. What's hanging on the wall is irrelevant to a trial. Our constitution is what matters and possibly the religious beliefs of your judge or jury. I'm going to bow out know because this has become a ridiculous conversation.

Isobel - posted on 11/12/2010

Quotation:



* "Americans misreport how often they vote, how much they give to charity, and how frequently they use illegal drugs. People are not entirely accurate in their self-reports about other areas as well. Males exaggerate their number of sexual partners, university workers are not very honest about reporting how many photocopies they make. Actual attendance at museums, symphonies and operas does not match survey results. We should not expect religious behavior to be immune to such misreporting." Kirk Hadaway, a sociologists at the United Church of Christ, (1993) 1,2

* "... despite the rhetoric, active religious participation remains a minority interest in American life." Tom Flynn, writer for Free Inquiry magazine, (1998). 2

...............................................

I went to church last week with my son's Beaver troop...and it was a lovely ceremony. I must admit though...if not for the Beaver parents, I'm thinking the place would be empty.



Don't get me wrong...I don't believe that the majority's consensus means that it's right...just that I don't believe that the majority of our population is "practicing" Christian. A lot of people think they are Christian if they believe in the ten commandments (which I have already stated existed LONG before Christianity)



So now that those studies are MOOT...explain to me again why you have the right to teach my children Christianity? (Do I get the right to teach your children Islam if I move enough Muslims into your neighbourhood?) And do I get to hang the Pagan Laws in front of my neighbourhood courthouse if the majority of my neighbourhood is Pagan? and if so...would you feel that you were likely to get a fair trial there?



I have asked this question multiple times now...tell me...would you feel that your interests were being fairly served in a court that displayed religious objects that were contrary to what you believe????

Christa - posted on 11/12/2010

How is putting the ten commandments on a wall in a courthouse or saying "under God" in the Pledge putting religion in schools or courts? It's pretty ridiculous, since the bible is NOT our law the constitution is. IF you are worried about getting a fair trial without a Christian bias, good luck. There is an 85% chance that your judge, or lawyer or jury members are Christian, because we are a Christian nation. It really comes down to each individual and how they apply their faith, within the limits of our constitution. I'd say we have the fairest justice system in the world regardless of whether or not the ten commandments are hanging on the wall.

It's really the Christians who are being treated unfairly. People try so hard to wash Christianity from everything that people are afraid to even mention they are a Christian in a school or work setting. And it's really sad because MOST Americans have a Christian foundation so the people who we are catering to are the minority. The most recent stats I've seen say 85% of Americans identify as Christian (obviously level's of involvement are different) So that's 15% of Americans who are not Christian, however my guess is of those 15% less than half would actually be offended by someone saying a prayer or saying Merry Christmas. So really we are catering to ~5-10% of the population and THAT'S a problem.

In fact with Facebook I'm finding out people I went to high school with are BIG Christians but I never knew that then because you aren't allowed to talk about it. It's quite sad, other than my close friends and kids I went to church with I had no idea who was a Christian. I might have made some better choices had I known I was with other Christians and not people who would judge me because of my faith.

Isobel - posted on 11/11/2010

The principals represented by the Ten Commandments long pre-date Christianity...they are the basic rules of a healthy society...the fact that Christians believe God put them on tablets is the only thing that's different about them.

Lists/jokes like these only further the false dividing lines between the left and the right. Just for fun...I'll take the test...let's see.

-I don't like guns, but I feel that the right to own one IS an important part of a free society.

-I'm not a vegetarian, but many of my (what you would call liberal) friends ARE...and none of them has ever tried to stop me from eating meat :)

-All the gay people I know just want equal rights...and last I checked that's a pretty All American Concept.

-When I was down and out, I enrolled in school to better my situation.

-I HATE Glenn Beck...but I think he has a right to spew his garbage...I just don't EVER turn his channel on ;)

-I don't believe in silencing ANY religion...do you? I just don't want them taught to my children or presiding over my court cases.

-healthcare...well...I am a realist, so I know that economically speaking that in a capitalist system, the bigger the buyer, the cheaper the cost...and in a true free market, ALL of the true costs of business would be passed to the consumer to encourage the public to make informed decisions...but since big business lobbyists out number your congressmen something like 35 to 1, their clout leads your government to bow down to their "job creation" extortion...you are being raped by insurance companies because they are not being held to TRUE free market conditions.

So there you have it 6 out of 7...I guess I'm a conservative :D

Gina - posted on 11/09/2010

Wow, I have been gone for a while..... because yes, I have a life!



I am quite frankly insulted by some of your comments, especially since you feel that Americans who homeschool their children will lead them into uneducated idiots. Clearly that is not the case, if you study more, In my area colleges prefer homeschooled children to the public educated ones. For one, when the parent takes their children's education into their own hands, they don't take it lightly, and they have more freedom to teach them things they should learn.



The nonsense about separation of church and state is getting old. We have tried to explain time and time again that the founders set up that clause to protect religion from the State, and quite frankly, it has been turned the other way around. If a Muslim taught my child their prayer in school, then this is a free country, and I would take my child to a different school. That is the great thing about being free. In the early days of our country, there were people of all diverse religions here in America, including Muslims. In fact one of the Founding Father's was a Muslim, and was later converted to Christianity. I'll do some research and get his name, I had it the other day and need to find it. That is what is wrong now, people who don't believe in God are so offended by believers. It goes back to that quote again from Thomas Jefferson that says "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. " If you study the early history of America, the Supreme court always ruled in favor of religion. It wasn't until a case in 1947 that the Supreme Court decided to read it differently. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/w...

From then on, religion has been abused by the State. That was a very important ruling, since our nation was founded on Christian principles it changes everything. Take the ten commandments for example, they are the basis of our law. If you take that out, then whose to say that to murder someone else is bad, since it is on a religious document. So that is why it is so important to stick with our founding principles. Our nation will eventually become in mayhem if we disregard all concepts of Christianity in our nation. The ten commandments are very good, they establish the laws of a self governing people, and when we disregard those laws, people can no longer self govern themselves, and in turn rely on socialism and communism, which in history doesn't work.

I found these the other day, and thought they were great, I don't want to post these to offend anyone, I just felt they were true.



If you ever wondered what side of the fence you sit on, this is a great test!



If a conservative doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one.

If a liberal doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.



If a conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat.

If a liberal is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.



If a conservative is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.

If a liberal is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.



If a conservative is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation.

A liberal wonders who is going to take care of him.



If a conservative doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels.

Liberals demand that those they don't like be shut down.



If a conservative is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church.

A liberal non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced. (Unless it's a foreign religion, of course!)



If a conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.

A liberal demands that the rest of us pay for his.

Isobel - posted on 11/09/2010

The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an oath of loyalty to the national flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892. The Pledge has been modified four times since then, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954.

and In God We Trust did not become the official U.S. national motto until after the passage of an Act of Congress in 1956.

................................

If you put religion in schools and courts...it becomes a STATE religion. The rest of us will have our children taught religion and have our court cases judged on religious principals that don't apply to us.

How is that fair? Is it fair in the middle east?

Christa - posted on 11/08/2010

“Saying that America is a Christian nation means that Christianity is America's state religion...I don't understand why we are butting heads on such a simple issue.”

No it doesn’t. It means our constitution was founded with Christian values and the majority of American’s identify themselves as Christians. It does NOT mean the bible is law or the EVERYBODY must be Christian.

“and the words "separation of church and state" don't appear but the spirit has long been understood. When the crazy lady from Delaware tried to debate that there was no separation of church and state in the constitution she was laughed out of the debate :)”

Like I said the wording in our founding documents was to provide protection for the churches NOT the other way around.

“How is it that people have been misinterpreting the document for 200 years and you guys finally got it right?”

They haven’t been misinterpreting it for 200 years, it’s only within, I’d say, the last 50 that people have begun spinning it to somehow remove all mention of religion from anything public.

Isobel - posted on 11/06/2010

Saying that America is a Christian nation means that Christianity is America's state religion...I don't understand why we are butting heads on such a simple issue.

and the words "separation of church and state" don't appear but the spirit has long been understood. When the crazy lady from Delaware tried to debate that there was no separation of church and state in the constitution she was laughed out of the debate :)

How is it that people have been misinterpreting the document for 200 years and you guys finally got it right?

Christa - posted on 11/06/2010

Please show me where anyone on this thread said they wanted a state religion? I did not see it.

Our founding fathers put religion in our constitution by referring to God and the Creator. Again this doesn't make the national religion Christian, but it does mean our constitution and other founding documents were written from Christian values and therefore should be interpreted that way. AND for the millionth time. Nobody wants to remove separation of church and state because it doesn't actually exist in the founding documents. It protects churches from government regulation and that is it. It's liberal judges who have twisted the meaning to remove anything Christian from a public venue. Please study our history better before coming in here and asking things you don't quite have a handle on.

Isobel - posted on 11/06/2010

everybody in this thread has said that they want Christianity to be the state religion...that's what removing separation of church and state does.

And saying that many the founding fathers were Christian doesn't mean that they wanted religion in the government.

Christa - posted on 11/06/2010

What??? Nobody said anything about a state religion or a wall. Now who's "fear mongering"?

Then you agree we were founded with Christian values and are and have always been a Christian nation? Great! I'm glad you've finally opened your eyes. Please encourage some of your like minded thinkers to do the same.

Isobel - posted on 11/05/2010

I never said that MANY of the founding fathers weren't Christian...I'll take that as an "I agree with the rest of your posts and cannot answer any of your other questions"



Since we have (over and over) agreed that many of your founding fathers were Christian.



And yes Christa...a few of us are already building an underground railroad for the progressives ;) ...if you guys decide to create a state religion and build a wall (like the Tea Partier in Alaska wants to do...how is it he said? control our borders like East Germany did?)...nice

Christa - posted on 11/04/2010

Well said ladies! Rebecca I've not seen you before, but EXCELLENT posts! :)

I wanted to ad for you Laura. Here is a website outlining how Christianity played a part in our founding and creation of our constitution. http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsA...

You will see that 51/55 (93%) of our founding fathers were some form of Christian. Rebecca made some great points about how in most societies, religion sets the "moral code". Unfortunately there is no way to prove an "absolute morality" so each culture or country does their best to define it. Ours was guided by the bible. Now this doesn't make the bible law, merely the origin of this countries values. And while we do have freedom of religion and all religions are equal and welcome. The bible is what our constitution was influenced by and to understand our constitution things must be taken in context. There is no way for every religion to have "their way". There are too many conflicting ideas and values among different religions. The US is a Christian nation and those who come here should realize that. If they don't like our constitution then they should choose another home, perhaps Canada. ;)

On the separation of church and state, like they’ve already said the wording in our constitution and other founding documents was to protect the churches. It was to protect the churches from persecution from the government. It does not anywhere say that religious values (values stemming from religion) should be kept from legislation or public domain. Our country has Christian references in almost every historical site in Washington DC. I have a child waking up so my time is up, but I will attempt to find some sources for you showing the deep Christian markings all throughout Washington, our capital, that have been there since their creation. It is the liberal/progressive/non-Christians that have quite successfully begun to "spin" our true origins. But the true evidence is irrefutable.

Abre - posted on 11/03/2010

ah, I posted without seeing the replys. This is my first time on this group because I was looking for thoughts on the elections...

Abre - posted on 11/03/2010

honestly, we know that Theocracy doesn't work from history because not everyone who becomes the leader has the best at heart...but then that goes for any leader....
There is no reason however that we can't have a person in leadership who has a firm understanding of right and wrong or a strong faith in God that guides the choices they make in office.
So, yes Democracy, but still following God’s rules…the way our nation was meant to work.

Isobel - posted on 11/03/2010

and I also already said that I agreed that MANY of the founding fathers were Christian...my only point is that it doesn't prove that they wanted religion mixed up with politics...that's all.

Isobel - posted on 11/03/2010

I don't understand...when I tried to back off and said that I guess you guys don't like debating I was chastised.

The ruling class has always been educated by people who were experts in their field...do you feel able to teach advanced calculus...computer programming...biology...physics...economics...chemistry? I don't, but then you do appear to be far more intelligent than I. I agree that public schools are failing, but the answer is to fix them, not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I'm not asking for you to think like I do...just to try putting the shoe on the other foot...would you feel comfortable with somebody else's religious laws on display in front of a court room that was supposed to serve YOUR interest as well as everybody else's? and would you be OK with your child's teacher leading a class prayer of a different religion if more than 50% of the class agreed? Cause that's how we feel. That's all I'm saying.

I was not trying to be rude or sarcastic...just trying to help you understand how the other side feels. You seem to consider a differing opinion an attack...and that was never my intention...just dialogue.

The fact that nobody is willing to listen to each other is part of what's very wrong with society today.

I do agree with you on another point as well...those kids should never have been asked to stop praying OUTSIDE the building.

Rebecca - posted on 11/03/2010

Laura, we're tired of arguing with you. It's something we don't agree on, and no matter what we say to you, you don't comprehend our point of view. All of your retorts are arguments that don't make sense, and are therefore hard to argue with because they are nonsensical to us. Here are some examples:

LAURA: "You can pray anywhere you want in public...feel free to drop to your knees anywhere you like...unless you are teaching MY child or presiding or MY court case."

If we want to pray, not loudly to draw attention to us, but quietly in a public place, we are told we can't. Here is a link: http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=179585
We are told it is "separation of church and state" so we can pray on state-owned property.

LAURA: "You can also celebrate Christmas anywhere you want...unless your boss nixed it for their own stupid reason."

Same thing as above, they say "separation of church and state" means that we can't display a nativity on county or state property or in a public school, or in a government building. Examples: http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=27948
http://www2.counton2.com/news/2009/dec/2...
http://www.thefoxnation.com/culture/2009...
And this one is from an HOA: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news...

LAURA: "You didn't answer my question. Would YOU feel confident that you were going to get a fair trial at a courtroom that had Sharia Law posted in front of it?"

As I explained before, this is a Christian nation founded on Christian principles. Sharia law is not constitutional. This isn't the middle east. They have Sharia law over there because their religion dictates how the government is run, and they abide by Sharia law. We do not, we abide (or are suppose to) by the Constitution. I wouldn't have to worry about getting a fair trial at a courtroom with Sharia law because this is America, and our laws are based on Christian principles. What is wrong with the ten commandments anyway? They are good morals to live by, whether you believe in God or not. If Muslims come over here and want to practice their religion, that's fine. But they are required to abide by our laws, not the laws on the land they came from. Sharia law is a moot point. They choose if they want to come over here, or if they are born here they have the choice to leave. But they can't change the Constitution to allow us to al be ruled by Sharia.

LAURA: "and would you feel comfortable with your child's teacher leading the class in an islamic prayer if the classroom was largely muslim?"

Teachers aren't allowed to lead prayer in public schools. But students are allowed to lead prayer and participate voluntarily. They can also choose not to participate. Same with the pledge. But many people want to outlaw prayer in school altogether, meaning if a student wanted to pray at all, it would not be allowed. And now even clergy members are banned from saying a prayer at a graduation ceremony. And students can't lead prayer before a football game. And "moments of silence" were done away with because it was presumed that it was meant for students to have a moment to pray. My goodness, a moment of silence DOES give students a chance to pray, but it is silent! So a Christian can pray how they want, a Muslim can pray how they want, a Jew, etc....and an atheist can just remain silent. What's wrong with that? It's gone too far.

LAURA: "Oh yes...and I know several muslims who say that the terrorists are not "real" muslims, just as you say Koresh and that mormon(ish) guy are not "real" christians...you guys really have more in common than you know."

We say they are not a real Christian because they do something that is a SIN and AGAINST God's COMMANDMENTS, but they do so in the name of the Lord. There is not mandate in the bible to kill sinners. We are not told that it is okay to murder if that person is a baby killer or child molester. So those people who invoke His name for their evil purposes are not acting in a Christian manner. Conversely, Muslims are told in the Koran to kill infidels, that infidels are not to be interacted with. They are told that they will be rewarded with however many virgins in "heaven" or whatever they call it, if they martyr themselves in the name of Islam. THEY ARE DOING AS THEY ARE COMMANDED IN THEIR HOLY BOOK. That's what the Koran says, the Bible does not say these things. We are to go through the world preaching the gospel, but we are not told to kill them if they don't convert. That is a huge difference, and if you can't see that, then you just don't want to see it.

LAURA: "are you concerned that being told to homeschool your kids (like the republican/teapartiers want you to do cause they want to close public schools) will create a subclass of people who are less educated and therefore unable to succeed in the world?"

WHAT??? What is wrong with homeschooling? You think that I'm not capable of teaching my child? You think he's going to be an idiot because he didn't get a public school education??? People were educated at home for centuries before the public school system was created. Some of the greatest minds were taught by their mothers, and went on to study on their own. Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, our founding fathers.
http://learninfreedom.org/Founders_free....
Our public schools are failing miserably, and now not allowing prayers, and now teaching as yound as kindergarten that it's okay to have two mommies or two daddies. Also, they are indoctrinating our kids with false information. I'm sick of history books telling kids that the founders were atheists or agnostics, that FDR's New Deal saved us from a depression, and that capitalism is evil. I am perfectly capable of teaching my children. In fact, I went to college to be a teacher. And many children benefit from a one-on-one learning experience that the public schools are incapable of providing. You're implication is demeaning and rude, and frankly, ignorant.

Now, as I said before, I don't have time to keep this up. You probably noticed I ignored your last two posts. You want to get on here now and be rude and condescending about how those were "difficult questions" when that is not it at all. We have already agreed to disagree and you want to keep bringing up more stuff. WE DON'T SEE THINGS THE SAME WAY. WE NEVER WILL. And I don't have time to keep arguing with you about it. Savvy? Why don't you drop the sarcasm and understand that we think of things differently, and that doesn't mean we are stupid. We have been patient with you and have tried to get you to understand our viewpoint, but you keep coming back for more because you can't fathom it from the viewpoint of a conservative or from a Christian. Please, stop. I have wasted too much time already, and I have two kids to take care of. I'm a stay at home mom, and they are my first priority. It took me sitting on the computer in increments of a few minutes here and there just to type this message, and it's exhausting. I don't care how many times you get on here and ask more questions, I'm done. So when your next two or three posts go unanswered, don't assume it was because the questions were hard. It's pointless trying to argue with you.

Isobel - posted on 11/03/2010

In all fairness...I suppose they were difficult questions...here's some more:

are you concerned that being told to homeschool your kids (like the republican/teapartiers want you to do cause they want to close public schools) will create a subclass of people who are less educated and therefore unable to succeed in the world? Does it bother you that the ads from the "concerned Americans" or whatever they call themselves are actually created by special interest lobbyists? no? ok.

Isobel - posted on 10/29/2010

Oh yes...and I know several muslims who say that the terrorists are not "real" muslims, just as you say Koresh and that mormon(ish) guy are not "real" christians...you guys really have more in common than you know.

Certainly more in common with each other than with me ;P

Isobel - posted on 10/29/2010

You can pray anywhere you want in public...feel free to drop to your knees anywhere you like...unless you are teaching MY child or presiding or MY court case. You can also celebrate Christmas anywhere you want...unless your boss nixed it for their own stupid reason.

My kids' school celebrates Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan, Kwanzaa, and Lunar New Year. That's the way it should be in a public school...all or nothing.

Find me a country with a free people that doesn't have separation of church and state. You didn't answer my question. Would YOU feel confident that you were going to get a fair trial at a courtroom that had Sharia Law posted in front of it? and would you feel comfortable with your child's teacher leading the class in an islamic prayer if the classroom was largely muslim?

Gina - posted on 10/28/2010

I also want to address these things you asked.... I had to copy and paste your question here....

How is it an attack to make all religions equal? Everybody is allowed to say prayer wherever and whenever they like...so long as they are not leading a class (which may or may not have children of other religions in it who are made to feel like second class citizens?)





Actually we can't say a prayer in public anymore, or in a public meeting. We can't celebrate Christmas in public, because it mentions Christ, and might offend people of differing religions. Which makes me wonder why they are offended by Christmas because it's a Christian holiday. We can't teach God with history to our kids in public schools, we can't post the Ten Commandments at a courthouse.... I could go on!



Your next comment I want to answer is this.....



and yes, I agree that several (not all) of the founding fathers were Christian...that doesn't mean that they believed that it belonged in the government...most of the Christians I know feel very strongly in favour of separation of church and state.



Most of the founding fathers were Christian, the only one I believe that wasn't was Thomas Paine. People assume that Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson weren't, because they were the least religious..... which in fact in today's terms they would be considered very religious. Thomas Jefferson had Sunday services in the Capital building. Benjamin Franklin said when asked.... what is America's religion... answered by saying" We believe that there is a God, and when we die we will answer to that God". Founding Father Benjamin Rush's handwritten personal Bible study booklet entitled “References to Texts of Scriptures Related to Each Other Upon Particular Subjects.” In it he listed scriptures under various topics and wrote his own notes on those scriptures. John Adams was religious also, he suggested a proclamation of fasting and prayer.... here is the link http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt...



John Adams

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States



[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.





[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.





The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.





I have studied the founding fathers for the last two years, and I have read their own writings. I know they were very religious men, and they were Christian.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt...

Gina - posted on 10/28/2010

I don't agree with you that our children are being force fed religion. If you could take a poll here in the United States, you would see that the majority of us still are Christian, so therefore, we agree that there is a God. We have different religions, and different churches we go to, but to say a general prayer in public to the God we worship is force feeding it down someone's throat? I am confused by that, because if you don't believe in God, then you just don't pray or participate. If you want my opinion, here in our society we are moving away from God, and that is causing all of our problems. I can't understand why

Christianity is so offensive, most Christians who study the Bible, devote their lives to bettering themselves and society. The way things are happening now, I would say we need more of it. So it goes back to your point, in our religion, we believe in praying. Praying to bless our food, praying to watch over our kids in a game, praying in graduation etc... so when we are denied those rights, then we are losing our religious freedoms.



David Koresh was not a true Christian. He was clearly a radical, going off and making his own religion, claiming it to be Christianity. The so called mormon leader in Utah, is not a Christian if that is what he was doing, plus he is not a mormon, he was some radical fringe religion branched off of Mormonism. Christ is who we are supposed to pattern our lives after, and clearly Christ was not like that.



So to get back to your question on separation of church and state, I say the only separation that needs to be there is to protect the free practice of Religion from the State. There was nothing in the constitution that said we need to protect people from being offended by another's religion. Just that religion is protected from the State making any laws prohibiting religion.

Isobel - posted on 10/27/2010

I don't know what you are talking about, cause I'm not upset...I love debating...I was making reference to all of the other ladies who had left or told me that they would never go to PDM...sorry that I missed counting you.



To be honest with you...I really was talking about separation of church and state, not whether or not god exists, or whether christianity is a good thing or not.



In my eyes, all religions are equal, during the crusades the christians killed hundreds of thousands of people for disagreeing with them...perhaps you could look at islam in that light...that's the evolutionary stage their religion is at.



and yeah, anybody who kills people is a psychopath...but they often use the name of god to do it.



David Koresh is my favorite example of a Christian lunatic, there are more though...who was the mormon leader out in Utah who was molesting the children of all his multiple wives??? Doesn't really matter I suppose, since you want me to ignore everything bad about christianity and focus on only the bad stuff from Islam.



Do you believe in freedom of religion? and if so, do you believe that it is possible for all religions (including atheists) to feel equal when ONE particular religion is being force fed to their children in school, and to them in the courts? Do you believe that any state in the world that has a state-sponsored religion guarantees religious freedom to its citizens? How would you feel if the majority of the people in your city were Muslim and therefore held Muslim prayers in class every morning? Or if you walked into a Courtroom that had all the muslim laws in front of the doors, would you feel like you were going to get a fair shake? Probably not, which is why we (non-christians) feel so threatened when we feel like you guys want to judge us by laws that do not apply to us.



Forcing everybody to be of one religion is the beginning of a VERY dark and slippery slope...one MUCH scarier than socialism.

Rebecca - posted on 10/26/2010

Excuse me. I have been nothing but polite in debating you. We may have agreed to disagree, and that's fine, but I didn't attack or demean you in any way. I do enjoy debating, as should be evident by the great care and detail I put into my posts. You asked the question on this forum, even telling us up front that you had different opinions, and I've politely giving you my perspective and rebuttals.

In giving examples concerning other religions' morality, I was simply trying to display that different cultures and religions have different beliefs on right and wrong. I wasn't attacking or judging Muslims. I did say "radical." And saying that there are radical Muslims is not saying there are no radical Christians. I was merely pointing out a fundamental difference in the two religions.

You say, "There are plenty of Christian lunatics out there who believe it's ok to rape children and murder people." WHAT??? Raping children is completely against everything in the Bible. It is without a doubt a sin. If someone doing that claims it's God's work, they are psychotic. And those people like the abortion-doctor murderers are committing THE SIN OF MURDER. Hello!!! Thou shalt not commit murder. There it is, in the Bible, clear as day. As far as the Koran goes, the passages do advocate killing of the infidels, and stoning adulterers, and killing those family members who dishonor the family. That's in their book. So someone who is a Muslim radical and wants to use his/her faith to commit a crime has scripture they can actually use to back up their hatred. That is not the case with the Bible. If that guy who murdered the abortion doctor thinks it's okay because in his eyes (and in God's) the doctor was murdering babies, that still doesn't give him the right to take matters into his own hands. Vengeance is the Lord's. And, Jesus also commanded us to follow the laws of our government. Murder is against the law, and against God's commandments, so there's double the proof that a "Christian" can't claim God's blessing in committing these crimes. And in turn, you used an example from the Bible to show how our religion condones stoning, and I explained to you as clearly as I could the reason why those Old Testament laws are obsolete now.

Did you not read my last post where I EXPLAINED why we follow the Ten Commandments? Yes they were in the Old Testament, in Exodus. But they are repeated in the New Testament. If you care, you can see them here: http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/ten-c...

I don't know what you were looking for when you came on here, but if you can't put your big girl panties on and have a discussion without getting so upset when someone disagrees with you, then maybe you are wise in leaving. I surely wouldn't mind you sticking around for more discussions, because I think it's great to listen to other viewpoints. But, hey, if you can't handle it, I understand.

Isobel - posted on 10/26/2010

Just for the record, those people would be comparable to David Koresh...There are plenty of Christian lunatics out there who believe it's ok to rape children and murder people...but you don't seem to like having Christianity judged on those people...so kindly don't judge other religions by their nuts.

The VAST majority of the planet believes that the concepts laid out in the ten commandments (weren't they from the old testament by the way???that part you don't have to follow anymore?) anyhoo...those concepts are FAR older than the bible and are widly accepted world wide.

murderers and rapists are sick, twisted human beings that are missing a part of their humanity that those of us who do not believe in god call a "moral compass"...we are almost all born with one.

but yeah, I see this isn't going to work, I suppose it takes a specific type of person to enjoy debating...and you guys ain't it :( have a nice life.

Rebecca - posted on 10/26/2010

You're right in that we will never agree, so I won't keep making arguments. The only thing I want to address is the morality thing. There are cultures in the world that think it is okay to murder people. I wasn't bashing Muslims, just using it as an example. Radical Muslims read the words of the Koran and live by them, including the passages that allow them to murder infidels and stone adulterers to death. What I meant is that all cultures are different. In China, since the one child rule, parents murder their infants at an alarming rate if they are a girl, since many hope to have a boy to carry on a bloodline. There was just a story in the news about Chinese officials bursting into a woman's home and kicking her in the stomach to try to induce a miscarriage. She was 8 months pregnant and she already had a child. Then they took her and forced her to have an abortion. In America, we find that heinous, but not in China. Our cultures and religions DO dictate our views on morality. Everybody around this world does not agree on morality. Heck, even in America we differ. Abortion is a prime example. It's a morality issue to us, and for the liberals it a women's rights issue.

And as far as stoning people in the bible, let me explain something that a non-believer may never be able to comprehend. God made a covenant with His people in the Old Testament. There are many laws in the OT that are very cut and dry, black and white, sin equals punishment. But when Jesus was sent to this earth, He died in our place. He paid our debt. He died so that we may live. In the New Testament, Jesus death was the New Covenant that God made with His people, and that is why Christians today don't make animal sacrifices. Jesus' blood was sacrificed for our sin, so we no longer must sacrifice animals to the Lord as a penance for our sin. The harsh laws that were in the OT were done away with. We still follow the Ten Commandments because they are repeated in the NT. Jesus also gave us other commandments. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul and all your mind" is one. The writings of the disciple Paul also tell us how to live: children obey your parents, husbands love your wives, etc. (obviously there is more explanation in the actual verses, but for those of us familiar with the whole context, one needs only to say the shortened sentence "husbands love your wives" and we understand the reference to the verses and their meaning).

So, when non-believers argue that the Bible says it's okay to dole our harsh punishments, like stoning, they have no understanding of the concept of Jesus' death on the cross and how that changed the relationship between the believer and God. The covenant is in our hearts now, because the Holy Spirit has come into our hearts, and we have a direct line to God in prayer and meditation. We are no longer required to live by the Old Covenant.

I will sign off for good now.

Isobel - posted on 10/26/2010

and yes, I agree that several (not all) of the founding fathers were Christian...that doesn't mean that they believed that it belonged in the government...most of the Christians I know feel very strongly in favour of separation of church and state.

Isobel - posted on 10/26/2010

How is it an attack to make all religions equal? Everybody is allowed to say prayer wherever and whenever they like...so long as they are not leading a class (which may or may not have children of other religions in it who are made to feel like second class citizens?)

I think I'm going to bow out soon, cause I don't want to hurt any feelings, but you are right, we definitely just have different brains...clearly, cause I don't see how those quote can be read any other way than...keep religion OUT of the government.

Gina - posted on 10/25/2010

I just feel that we are on two different pages here, and that is one of the reasons why I decided to never go back to the PDM's. We think so clearly different, that we could argue all day, and still not understand each other. I get it, that you don't believe in God, but we do. We don't want to force our religion on anyone, and we don't want people's unbelief forced on us. There is a quote that Thomas Jefferson said... The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
What is happening in our society now is clearly an attack on Christian beliefs. We aren't allowed to say a prayer in a public setting. I just don't understand how that would offend a non-believer. If you study the founders, you would be blind if you could not see that they were God fearing men. Whenever Thomas Jefferson signed a document, he always signed it In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
As far as separation of church and state, there is nothing in the constitution that state's that. The only evidence they have found about that, is a letter from Jefferson to Madison, and Jefferson was concerned about a State religion. Basically he was wanting more protection on religion from the State. Clearly it has been turned upside down now, and religion is taking a beating from the State.
I don't know what history books you are reading, but check their references, and check those references too. The history books that were published before the 1900's are the most accurate. Read the Founding Father's own words, and not some authors interpretation on their words.

Isobel - posted on 10/25/2010

I'm sorry if that sounded like christian bashing...it wasn't meant as that, just as a response to what I considered muslim bashing. And I'm not saying that honour killings or any of the violence that fundamentalists (in any religion) carry out is right either.

Isobel - posted on 10/25/2010

the majority doesn't get to vote on human rights, never have...the fact that they are now is a travesty. Democracy should control POLICY not human rights. All Americans are allowed the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, no? Why should any group of people be denied what is guaranteed to them in the constitution just because somebody else's fairy tale about a man upstairs says so?

and the majority of Americans WERE in favour of healthcare before it got watered down to garbage.

and I would beg to differ...that part of morality is completely NATURAL...all cultures and all religions view the "sins" in the ten commandments as wrong.
Why to you mention honour killings? when the bible clearly demands that you stone your child if he lies to you?

America is NOT a Christian nation...you can twist words to suit what you like but I think those quotes speak for themselves...there is NO freedom of religion in any country that has a state sponsored religion.

Rebecca - posted on 10/25/2010

I'll address you last question first: We are not a democracy. We are a republic. Think about it this way...do you, as I assume you are a liberal, believe that gays should have the right to marry? Let's say for the sake of argument that answer is yes. So in California, they voted on Prop 8 a few years ago and the voters overwhelmingly said they did not want to allow gay marriage. Is that fair to the gays in your eyes? In most liberals eyes? I mean, we have all these people on TV screaming that we conservatives are homophobic sexists because we don't agree with gay marriage. So now all the "abbreviations" (GBLT or whatever it is, and ACLU, etc.) are trying to get a judge to overturn the "will of the people" because it's not fair to the MINORITY. So, majority rules, and too bad for the gays, they lost.

And what about healthcare? The polls are showing that over 70% of Americans are not in favor of healthcare, and would like it repealed. So, in theory, the majority rules and we should repeal healthcare (or it should not have been passed in the first place). Is that what YOU want as a liberal? See, if you argue that majority rules, then all the liberals need to shut up when the people speak. But they cry how it isn't fair, and the minorities don't have a say.

You see, we are a republic so even the minority gets to have their voices heard and gets representation in Congress. If we were a democracy, majority rules, then there would truly be "taxation without representation" for those people.

And you ask: "Why on earth would a small sect of people deserve as much say as the rest of the ENTIRE state, or country?" Okay, so gays shouldn't have a say because they are the minority. And blacks, well, they're still a minority, too, so they shouldn't get as much say. And atheists, they are a minority, so they shouldn't get a say. See? You're logic is flawed. I may not agree with what all those people want, but I still believe they have the right to want it and the right to have a representative go to bat for them in Congress. Now, that doesn't mean the whole country bows to the will of the minority, but it gives them a place at the table and options. For example, you live in Texas and want to marry your same sex partner? Not allowed, but because there are gays who have voted for representatives that share their views, there are places in the country where that is allowed. So, if that's important to you, move to Vermont. It's like that so that everybody in America will have someplace to go where their lifestyles, religious practices, etc. are accepted. But it doesn't mean that the minority forces it's will on the whole.

As far as Jefferson's quotes, I've read them all before, I'm familiar with his writings. I read the same words you just typed and got an entirely different understanding. You need to comprehend historical context. It's much too lengthy to go in depth with it all, but you must understand that King George did not allow the free practice of any religion other than the state religion, The Church of England. The government had it's fingers in everyone's personal life as it pertained to their choice to worship freely. Jefferson said, "I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another." He is saying that the state can't dictate Christian over Jew, Hindu over Muslim, etc. The phrase "building a wall of separation between church and State" is referencing that the government should stay out of religion. The government can't tell you what you can and cannot do, how you can worship or choose not to, etc. It is, once again like all of the Bill of Rights, a negative right....that is, what the government is not allowed to do. That doesn't mean that God is not allowed in government, period.

Also, you ask: "Since there clearly is NO god...why should I have to follow but YOUR god's rules?" I don't believe that anybody has to follow my God's rules. This country was founded on Christian principles. Think about the Ten Commandments and parables in the bible. Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not bear false witness (lie), thou shalt not steal, etc. Where do you think we get our morality? It doesn't come naturally. If you were born in the middle east, the culture would dictate morality. You'd believe that common sense morality says that it's okay to sleep with a prostitute for one hour, it's okay to beat your wife for any reason, it's okay to kill a family member to restore honor to the family, that if a woman is raped it is her fault and she should be punished. Those people believe that because of their religion. Religion dictates to the culture what is and is not morally acceptable. When you think about what is morally acceptable in the US, as a whole, these morals come from the biblical principles. It doesn't mean you have to follow all the commandments, but it is our basic understanding of right and wrong.

This IS a Christian nation. It was founded by Christian men, people who moved here primarily for religious freedom. Somewhere around 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christian. Some practice their faith, some don't. But as I said in my last post, God doesn't force people to believe in Him, He lets them choose. We don't force people to follow His laws, because then we would be no better than the tyrant King George.

Isobel - posted on 10/25/2010

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802



Where the preamble [of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom] declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting the words "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. (Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363)



I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 499.)



Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority. But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises, which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. (Thomas Jefferson)



...........................................



I respectfully submit that America was never meant to be a Christian nation.



and did I read right...did you just say that you don't believe in democracy? What system in the world does more to see that the will of the people is upheld? Why on earth would a small sect of people deserve as much say as the rest of the ENTIRE state, or country?

Isobel - posted on 10/25/2010

While I agree that the states should have more power (I actually believe you guys should be a commonwealth with 52 countries in it but that's another issue), I truly believe that it is impossible to remove separation of church and state without creating a theocracy...how can you have freedom of religion if there is a state religion.

Since there clearly is NO god...why should I have to follow but YOUR god's rules?

Rebecca - posted on 10/25/2010

I haven't heard anything about "adding Christianity to the Constitution"...I don't have a clue what you are referring to. As far as separation of church and state, there is no such thing in the Constitution. Here is the 1st Amendment in it's entirety:



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."



The Constitution does not say that "the church" is not allowed to exist in any "state" entity, like a school or a courtroom (ie: prayer at football games, Ten Commandments at the courthouse, etc.). What it says is that the federal government is not allowed to establish a national religion, nor is it allowed to tell anybody that they are not allowed to practice a religion. England's religion was The Church of England, and people came to America to freely practice their own religions, Christian as well as others.



If you read the Declaration of Independence, the founders referenced God several times. Here is the first part:



"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."



You see, we were founded on Christian principles. That doesn't mean we are all forced to be Christians, but it means that the basic principles of Christianity are the basis upon which our laws are made. The founders understood that God is the one who gives us our rights, not the government. This principle was important enough that they put it into our founding documents.



As a Christian myself, I absolutely do not want a theocracy, even if Christianity is the national religion. I know that God "knocks on the door of your heart" and that we must welcome Him in. If He forced us to accept Him, it wouldn't be a gift. His gift is everlasting life for those who accept it. Therefore, a theocracy is completely against biblical doctrine. As a Christian, I want to be free to choose how, when, what, where, and whom to worship. So I have no problems with atheists, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics.......we all have freedom of religion.



What I do have a problem with is the government claiming that we have "separation of church and state" and that it means that religion is not allowed in the government whatsoever. Obviously, that is not the case since the founders made it very clear in the founding documents that God gives us our rights, and that they saw fit to include references to Him. And, it should be noted that they prayed during the Constitutional Convention as they were arguing and discussing the best way to create this great nation. Most of the founders were very religious, and most were Christians. They never intended us to completely remove all religious references from government buildings. The 1st amendment has been distorted.



And as Gina said, we were founded as a constitutional republic, and we still are today, although the guys in charge keep finding ways to spit on the Constitution and make laws that go completely against it. What most of us conservatives want is for our representatives to FOLLOW THE LAW. And the law of out land is the Constitution. One of the very important amendment is the 10th amendment. All of the first 9 state what the government is NOT allowed to do (Congress shall not...). The 10th give states the right to decide on the rest of the issues (10th: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.") Massachusetts wants health care? Okay! California wants to legalize pot? Okay! Vermont wants gay marriage? Okay! They can do that. But if I live in that state and I don't like it, I can move to Texas.



Okay, my post is getting too long, so last thing, I promise! The reason we weren't founded as a democracy is because when "majority rules" the people in the minority have no say. And if the minority has no say, then those people are being oppressed. So, the founders set up a republic, where we elect representatives who have seats in Congress based on population, and they get to vote on issues. Everyone from the far left to the far right and in between has a seat at that table. All voices are heard. So, there are representatives from each district, and if Austin has a lot of liberals, so they will vote accordingly. They get to live in the city where someone represents them. But could you imagine if all the people in Austin, the only county (Travis County) to be blue in a big sea of red, were not represented at all because the "majority" of Texas is conservative? That wouldn't be very fair. Those people wouldn't be free to live how they want.

Isobel - posted on 10/24/2010

So, does it scare you at all that the new republicans want to add Christianity to the constitution and get rid of separation between church and state?

Gina - posted on 10/23/2010

I also wanted to address the theocracy issue... I feel that you have assumed that is what we want because most people who are conservatives are religious. Well I am offended by that to tell you the truth. Yes, I am religious, but no I do not want a church to rule. That is why the pilgrims left Europe to settle in America in the first place, to have freedom of worship. When a church rules, you don't have a choice on what religion you want to be, so therefore, I think I could say that most of us agree here, that is a bad idea.

Gina - posted on 10/23/2010

Your question makes no sense at all, I don't want either. I want a constitutional republic. That is, stick to the constitution, and vote accordingly. You have to have a rule of law, and our rule of law is the constitution. So with that, we should vote on things that are for one constitutional, and not just what is popular. That is why a democracy doesn't work, and history has proved that they don't work without a rule of law.