Abortion: When is a Dad considered a Dad?

Brittany - posted on 11/08/2012

I love how you keep implying women should keep their 'legs closed', however not once have I read men should keep there 'junk in their pants' to prevent them from being in this situation.

Ariana - posted on 11/01/2012

You've already said that the father should be the father 100% of the time. If this theory is correct that the father has a choice in whether the mother is forced to keep the child therefore he would also have a choice in whether the child should be born at all. If he is 100% Dad and he does not want to support the child, does not want the child in the world, then according to your theory he should be part of the decision on whether to terminate or not.



You said abortion is up to the mother and that at the moment the mother has a right to terminate or keep the child without the fathers consent. He's not important when the child is being aborted, but is responsible when the child is born and you think this is unfair. Therefore you're saying if he decides the child should be born she should be. In that case he would also be part of the decision if he wanted the child to be aborted and the mother didn't.



If he can force her to HAVE the baby then why doesn't he have the choice to abort the baby? That sounds a little hypocritical right?

Alaina - posted on 11/01/2012

@Michelle, yeah I agree. Women "MUST" control their own bodies. That agrees with owning up to the fact that they alone have the ability to keep their legs shut..... Once they become pregnant, they have entered the realm of having something that doesn't belong to just them in their body, and things change. Why did this happen? Because Woman decided to control their body in a fashion that allowed it. So much for "Women Must Control Their Own Body" theory indeed.

Alaina - posted on 11/01/2012

I've stated my logic quite a few times, though it is indeed common sense. If the woman does not want the baby, she should be asking the father before she can kill it.



In the case of the father, he can not force the woman to kill her own child if she does not want to. "THAT" is pure common sense., and my logic. Not sure where you are lost here. Certainly she would have the same right he does in saying no she doesn't want to kill her own baby, but if you need me to clarify that, I suppose I'll do it.... AGAIN.

Ariana - posted on 11/01/2012

Actually NO it isn't common sense Alaina. If the 'father' has the right to force the woman to keep the baby than he also would have a right to have her abort the baby. At least using your logic.

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/01/2012

Women MUST control their own bodies. Until a man can carry a pregnancy that's just the way it is. And lets not kid ourselves women have an inherit right to abortion making it illegal doesn't stop abortion. Women are the most affected by pregnancy and usually often by child rearing , women also most often do include "Dad" in these decisions.



If a Man has a strong feeling about abortion then I suggest he have sex with women who share his views.

Alaina - posted on 11/01/2012

It's been said numerous times Now Ariana. If one of the parents wants the kids, "No one" should be able to force the other to off it. It's pretty basic common sense.

Ariana - posted on 10/31/2012

So you're also saying that if a man wants the woman to have an abortion she must do so?



The woman takes on most of the responsibility. If the woman does not WANT this responsibility, taking care of the child every day, paying for all of their necessities, but the father wants the child to be born and see them when he pleases it IS something for THAT woman to complain about. Since THAT woman did not wish to conceive a baby. Having the majority of custody over a child when some women either already have to many children, live in poverty, or are possibly unfit to have a child for various reasons IS detrimental to them. For someone to point that out isn't saying they are a bad mother it means that not everyone is ready for that amount of responsibility. A man in this case could force the woman to have a baby and then only take care of it on weekends or change their minds and not even send the monthly check (which in most cases isn't enough to support a child). In a lot of areas the man pays by how much they make or if they don't have a job may pay NOTHING.



A lot of fathers just run off. Not all of them, not even the majority of them, but there are a number who do. If a woman is seeking an abortion I think it is safe to say that the majority of these incidents would be with a man who possibly isn't involved or for two people who are not in a commited relationship.



Women have fought for the rights over their body. We're all supposed to go to the dark ages where we have babies whenever a man pleases us to?



The woman is the one who carries more of the responsibility and more stigma. She is the one who has a right to her body. A man in this society already realizes this. It's not as if this is some major discovery.



So if a man can decide to force a woman to stay pregnant for nine months should he also be allowed to force her to have an abortion? If the babies life is 50/50 who owns more of it? Do they have to come to an agreement? What if they're at a stand-still? Who ultimately wins?

Alaina - posted on 10/31/2012

No, it's connected to whether the woman decided he was the father, or if she decided he was nothing and killed the kid. You clearly are incapable of following along with this at all, and to be honest, sound like a dreadful person if you think that having the majority of custody is worse and harder than not. Maybe you should go ahead and pass that off then to someone who sees it as a blessing, rather than something to complain about.



Just sayin the obvious here, and repeating you?

Kimberlee - posted on 10/31/2012

Like me ? You know nothing about me .



If a Dad is making child support payments and not seeing his child often enough , then I would say he should do something to change that - it's not connected to abortion .

Alaina - posted on 10/31/2012

Uhhh... that's called a reward, and many Dads would love to do it, as opposed to you whining about it like a bad mom would. See, they pay, and get what? Little to nothing but a weekend here and there, and a hard time from some woman like you who didn't see the appreciation in what they do, and thought they had it harder because you didn't "love" being the main giver of care.



Enough said is right, and have a great day ;)

Kimberlee - posted on 10/31/2012

Right , because writing a check every month is so much harder then doing the day in and day out parenting while also adding to the financial support of a child.



If you were actually making a point it wouldn't be frustrating .

Alaina - posted on 10/31/2012

Well, we are how many comments back and forth now, but I don't really want to hear it? Well hmmmm.... I believe if I don't agree with you, you'll toss your hands up and say it's because I'm not listening. How typical heh? lol.



So, you don't think that men lose their jobs, their lives over child support rearages, and the list goes on.... But for that "end" of the 9 month period of time, you are whining about a few months where you might be unemployable? Poor Poor us I tell ya.



I watched my Dad go through the hoops and ringer of the system. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and it's frustrating you as I point it out over and over again lol.



I hear you just fine :)

Kimberlee - posted on 10/31/2012

Well biology is what makes it so women and not men are the ones who carry pregnancies.



And yes women are more affected by pregnancy. How many men lose their jobs due to a pregnancy or due to child rearing?



I don't believe you want to have a discussion or even attempt to understand my position , so I'll end here. have a nice day.

Alaina - posted on 10/31/2012

I'm not certain where you feel that "Biology" as you've stated multiple times now, is what makes it unfair. Firstly, it's a doctor that kills the kid upon your demand, it's the legal system that allows it to happen on a whim, and it's the societal laws that keep the man from ringing your neck for doing it. Now, where did biology come into play during any of that?



Biology: That's what makes the baby be alive and well unless you do something "against" biology to stop it. That seems pretty clear right?



If "any" of the parents, be they male or female want the child, they should be entitled to it. I think you are stretching at something that isn't there with the "Yet what if the women is against abortion? Should she have one because the Father wants her to?", as none of that was said nor implied anywhere.



You think that we as women are the most affected by pregnancy? We have the option to end it, or carry for 9 months and ditch it off on some one.... Or, the power to say yay or nay while a guy waits in the wings wanting to know if his wallet will be empty for the next 18 years, all because "OUR BODIES" couldn't keep our legs closed. If it's all about being "Our Bodies", I suppose that's optional too right? A dad is only a dad when we say so, and "our bodies" are only "our bodies" when we say so. Our accountability can be passed off, killed, or accompanied and complimented with someone else's paycheck. A mans accountability, it's his, and by force of law.



Wow lol.

Kimberlee - posted on 10/31/2012

I understand your POV , I think.



Yet what if the women is against abortion? Should she have one because the Father wants her to? Do we really want men to have the legal ability to force or stop a women when it comes to abortion? Women are the ones most affected by pregnancy after all .



Once a child is born , does the child have no rights ? How do the laws make fair what biology has already made unfair? The man is as responsible for an unwanted/unintended pregnancy as the women , I don't believe telling people not to have sex , unless they want to be parents, is an effective form of controlling pregnancy - hasn't worked so far -



Men are responsible to for part of the financial support of their child ( the same as a woman ). What's the alternative ? To allow men to abandon that responsibility? What would happen if that was allowed? I could see the abortion rate going up , welfare and food stamp systems being further burdened and children growing up with state sanctioned abandonment issues .

As it is one of the most often sited reason for abortion is financial concern.



There are a few studies regarding men being consulted in regards to the decision to abort. there are several sites that have the information available - Such as (with excerpt to follow ) ;



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21276...



" The overwhelming majority of women reported that the men with whom they got pregnant knew about the abortion, and most perceived these men to be supportive. Cohabiting and, to a lesser extent, married women as well as those in longer relationships were more likely to report both of these outcomes, even after controlling for demographic characteristics...."

Alaina - posted on 10/31/2012

@Kimberly It's interesting to note that statistically most women do consult... what?



Let's go ahead and note that statistically then if you wouldn't mind. Where are your "statistics" located at for our reference?



As for It' being your body, and how would that be fair? Well, reverse that logic. It "IS YOUR BODY", and you opened your legs, but if you "DO" decide to have the kid, now the guy pays child support because you decided he is a Dad all of a sudden? Seems like it's still your body right?



I'm making a pretty clear point I would think. Either the Dad is a Dad or isn't. It's not when it's convenient for you.

Cecillia - posted on 10/30/2012

I think the dad should definitely have a say if the mom decides to get an abortion. Yes it's her body, but that baby growing inside of her was not made by JUST her body. My dad actually went through this with my step-mother. She found out she was pregnant, didn't want another baby, and aborted it. My dad didn't find out until 3 months AFTER the abortion and he was completely devastated. I understand that a lot of men these days do leave and don't take care of their kids, but to use that as an excuse to justify getting an abortion so you don't need to worry about that happening to you is just so sad to me. There are A LOT of men who step up and do take care of their kids and become amazing fathers.

Kimberlee - posted on 10/30/2012

Mother nature or god or whoever you blame has made it unfair since men can not carry pregnancies.



There is no-way that a man should be allowed to dictate or force a woman to either carry or abort a pregnancy , how would that be "Fair" ?



Currently the law allows that the person most impacted by pregnancy be able to make these decisions . Slightly OT , it's interesting to note that statistically MOST women do consult the man who they became pregnant by and usually it is a joint decision anyway.

Alaina - posted on 10/29/2012

@Britany Brask task : "the government supports us as women in this, and a large group of women will support this decision as well. I highly doubt it will change, no matter how old I get."



I find that pretty funny, as several states have adopted a law that the man "does" have a say in cases where rape or life threatening conditions don't apply to the mother. While you highly doubt it will happen, it's actually happening. :)

Angela - posted on 10/27/2012

Womans right to do as she pleases wiv her body... abortion is only illegal and murder after 26 weeks.



I think if men dont want to be nothing then dont make yourself nothing... date, be selective, choose wisely, get to know each other v well, commit, get married, build a foundation, start a family.... then you should have less chance getting into this situation. They still wont have rights but hey thats life or not in some cases .. is it fair not to be informed or have a say?? Course not but it only affects the mans life in the long term to continue with the pregnancy, i can hardly see support groups for men whos fetuses have been aborted tbh.... maybe some men are deeply affected but a mother will be affected moreso as its a decision that will affect her for the rest of her life....



Just my opinion

Ariana - posted on 10/25/2012

I personally don't believe you are 'killing a baby'. You're aborting a fetus if it's under the 3 month point. that's just me and some disagree.



It's a womans body and she should be able to do what she wishes with it. There are plenty of times when the man is pressuring a girl to have an abortion. Does that mean she should? The woman is the one who will bear the responsibility for the child no matter what; whereas the father can walk away or claim 'it's not my kid' if they choose so.



The father might also choose not to be in a childs life, just because they feel like it. Make a run for it or resist paying child support/seeing the child. Then the responsibility is left to the mom. Many mothers are told 'it's not my kid' or questioned for no reason.



In black in white terms I can understand this point. Life isn't always black and white. Actually I would say it is rarely black and white. I mean if the man decides he wants a woman to have an abortion does she have to? Does she have to go with his decision? How do you decide who has more rights to the womans body?

Roxanna - posted on 10/21/2012

Alaina, very interesting question. But let me ask a general question. Why should abortion be the issue? If contraception was readily available and reliable, would we, in general, be having these problems. And just to clarify, I am Pro-Choice, but its more about protecting myself and my choices than it is about having an abortion. I was married to my first husband for over 5 years. FIVE pregnancies that resulted in three miscarriages, one abortion and one live birth. We weren't even trying to get pregnant and I was told I could NEVER have children because problems in my reproductive parts. He was not as supportive as I would have wanted and he was against me having the abortion...the child was basically not going to live past birth and we found out in my 4th month....for religious reasons, not taking into consideration the health and mental risks to me, not good. Many years later, atleast 12 years after we divorced, he tells me that he married me knowing I couldn't have kids and he did so becasue he wanted NONE. But when I had the abortion, AFTER I had my daughter, he said he was disgusted in me. I was devasted!

But, moving on, I have to say that while it is unfair to carry thru with a pregnancy that your partner doesn't want AND will cause financial stress on that person; what happens to the couples who get that "surprise" are initially thrilled and then he balks? Darn straight she needs to get child support!

Do I agree that if you made it together, you need to decide what to do with it TOGETHER? Yes, I do. But women tend to lose more....wages because they cannot work as much during pregnancy, 6 weeks after birth, childcare costs, schedule conflicts, etc. A man dips his wick and can continue on his merry life!

Abortion is a very difficult and painful subject for anyone one, regardless of whether you are for it or against it. I am against it for it to be used as contrapception, because she was irresponsible. I am for it to save my life, if I was raped, or the child would be critically ill and not expected to live.

One little piece of advice, if I may. People have strong feelings about this subject, you do as does Brittany. Your position was stated quite clearly...BUT....using "murder", not cool.Some of us did not HAVE a choice in that decision. My son would have been 16 years old this past October 18th, his due date...

Jennifer - posted on 10/16/2012

From where i'm standing- dad is dad when he donates his sperm, and mom is mom when the egg is fertilized.

We have far more infants on death row than murderers and rapists

Kate - posted on 09/20/2012

It's a problem of definitions. According to the current thought process, good or bad, a fetus is just a cluster of cells in a woman's body. As it is her body she can do as she pleases. The father is responsible for a child. A child is a living breathing independent organism. To say that a father has to sign off on an abortion is to say that a fetus is a child.



In my honest opinion, as a woman IF you are in a committed relationship and the result is pregnancy. And there is reason to think that the father will be involved, and will support the child. He should get to have a say. You can give up all rights after the baby is born, but you have an obligation to your partner to consider what he wants or needs (provided that you are physically able to cary the pregnancy). But I don't think that it should be the law. I just think it's the right thing to do.

Brittany - posted on 09/20/2012

Plus - The diamond, wasn't even half yours ;)

Brittany - posted on 09/20/2012

Brask task : the government supports us as women in this, and a large group of women will support this decision as well. I highly doubt it will change, no matter how old I get.

Alaina - posted on 09/20/2012

If you swallow a 10,000,000 dollar diamond that you stole, watch and see if the authorities don't stand right there with you until you crap it out. While it may be "your body" you have something in there that doesn't belong to just you....period, and it's more valuable than any diamond.



You people really need to grow up lol.

Alaina - posted on 09/20/2012

If you want a Dad to be a Dad when it's convenient for you, then you also have to accept he is when it's not as well.



That's the brass tax. "It's my body" is the excuse of a 3 year old.

Brittany - posted on 09/20/2012

All I am trying to say is abortion is not a easy subject. It's not cut and clear black and white. There are two many variables as to why women terminate or continue a pregnancy, to ask the father to sign off on allowing it, if this was the case women would spend their whole pregnancy in court trying to prove their point as to why they want to terminate. These things are time sensitive.



I don't think a woman should have to give birth, just because dad wants the child. He should create a loving lasting relationship with a woman to have a baby. Same as mom. A father shouldn't be required to raise a child he doesn't want, like I stated before thats why father can relinquish their rights. Whether this is easy to do or not, is why Fred should have considered before creating that child. Abortion is not an easy thing to go through either, which is why Jane should have considered before hand.



The way it is how it is, is because we as women carry the pregnancy, and in most cases we are the primary caregivers to said child. (Whether Dad is around or not)



Brass tax, it's really easy. A zygote is not considered a child - as to why the father has no say. A woman can do what she pleases with the cells in her body.



Should we need a mans permission for the Plan B pill too?

Alaina - posted on 09/19/2012

Also - Alaina, I think if you want to open a conversation like this, you should make your opinion loud and clear - as to referring to abortion as murder, it's obvious you don't understand how abortion saves some womens lives. Not only from medical problems, but can also ensure they can raise the children the already have given their resources. It ensures they can continue their education to be functioning members of society. It ensures rape victims do not need to give birth to their rapists child. Also, it is not considered murder in the state or country I live in. Infact it's considered a valuable resource to women who feel they have no other choice than to terminate.



So daddy says he wants the baby - as most do say - and then 2 years later decides he doesn't want the responsibilty. Now mom is left to support a child she was convinced, or forced to have -- fair? No I don't think so.



What is that ^^^^^ @Britanny? See, the thing is, I did make my opinion loud and clear. Your confusion comes from you trying to add to my opinion in your own words. What if what if what if? What if you stick to what it is that I posted, and then just go from there right?



So, yes....when a Dad says that he wants the child, it is "murder". When it's a child that there is no reason to kill, and he says he wants to take care of it "which" is what I described before you disected it to a hundreds ways of Sunday in an attempt of confusion no doubt.



Should a rapist be able to force a mom? Use common sense. Should a man ask a woman to die to give birth? Use common sense. Nit picking Captain obvious to death may bring some people off point into thinking there is some sort of logic in that theory, but when you come down to the brass tax, it's real easy. If the kid and mom can live, then a Dad has a say in whether or not the kid should be born if he is willing to be the provider....provided the woman "willingly" spread her legs.



You find that complicated somehow? I'd love to know how.

Brittany - posted on 09/19/2012

It can't be made to have both parent sign off on. Should the rapist father have a say? What about a father who ignores a grave health concern to the mother? What if the mother really does want the baby but the child has a life threatening condition - should she need the fathers permission to terminate? What about an abusive relationship? What about judgemental parents? Should everyone in your life need to know before you terminate a pregnancy? What if mom slept with all of Kansas? Should she need to DNA test the whole state before being approved for an abortion?



Also - should the father want the child, and the mother not, why should she have to endure a 9 month pregnancy, including health risks and labor/surgery ect.



Abortion is an option for women so they are not continously having unwanted children. Women fought for these rights so we could also be educated, work, prosper without spending our entire lives under the thumb of men knocking us up. We as women should have the decision as to if we want to spend out entire lives being primary caregiver to children.



Also - Alaina, I think if you want to open a conversation like this, you should make your opinion loud and clear - as to referring to abortion as murder, it's obvious you don't understand how abortion saves some womens lives. Not only from medical problems, but can also ensure they can raise the children the already have given their resources. It ensures they can continue their education to be functioning members of society. It ensures rape victims do not need to give birth to their rapists child. Also, it is not considered murder in the state or country I live in. Infact it's considered a valuable resource to women who feel they have no other choice than to terminate.



So daddy says he wants the baby - as most do say - and then 2 years later decides he doesn't want the responsibilty. Now mom is left to support a child she was convinced, or forced to have -- fair? No I don't think so.

Crystal - posted on 09/18/2012

I have thought about this many times. And it sucks that men have no right. As a woman I can get pregnant and make ALL the rules. Yes it takes two to do so. And two should have a say.



After long hours of thought I have a idea. Both parents should have to sign off on a abortion. If the man says no then He should be 100% responsible for all cost. That said the woman should be made to take care of herself and thus the baby while she carries it.



If by chance the man so says ni I don't want this baby then she should cover all the cost, IF he is willing to sign all rights away. And the woman should not be able to say he can't sign off.



Both partys should have equal rights. But then again this is America where woman marched for equal rights and then though a fit when its given to them. They want to be equal untill they have to pay thier half.

Alaina - posted on 09/18/2012

You know, that would almost make sense, but trends actually show that "mothers" asked to pay child support have a higher chance of not paying it, and walking out on their kid than men do. Granted, they don't get asked as much because of the "rights", because they use their body as an excuse for everything and typically wind up with custody in a legal battle, but when asked, women are actually worse culprits than the men when it comes to paying child support. Who knew right?



As far as the "signing of rights" is concerned, unless there is a good reason, the woman can actually contest the signing away of rights, and the judge rules in the woman's favor, saying she "can" force the man to raise the child. So, you are wrong there.



The bottom line is, if as a women we want all the credit to do "whatever" because it's our bodies, then "any" responsibilities for the child birth itself should also lie on our shoulders. A man can not force us to spread our legs, and we know that we run the risk of making that man a father. We also know, that we have the potential to seriously alter that mans life by not keeping our legs closed, making them a father, and potentially murdering their baby.



Giving credit where credit is due, yes it's in our body. That's why we have the responsibility of making the decisions. If you have a kid, you did so knowing you made someone a father, and if you decide you to kill it though the man doesn't want you to, you think that's reasonable and shouldn't be changed.



Very interesting to say the least. Everything is an excuse about how it's "our body", up until it comes to the point of blame where "only" the woman has the ultimate control of keeping their legs closed... on that same very body.



Ironically, I see the logic. Heck, if I was a two year college degree graduate, I'd like to make more money that an 8 year graduate, and if they would allow it, I'd probably not want to see that change either. Same concept.



Either a dad is a dad or not, and either your body is your body, or it isn't. I see hypocrisy.

Brittany - posted on 09/15/2012

Don't get me wrong, they should both try to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.



However, Fred only has so many rights. So to protect himself, from given situation - he should take more percaussions, since he doesn't have a right after conception.



I don't think this should change. If daddy wants to sign away his rights once baby is born, he is able to do so.



A man shouldn't be able to 'force' a women to have his baby, nor should a women be able to 'force' a man to raise a child -- that is why men can sign away their rights - and I know here at least when they do, they are not financially/emotionally responsible. There are certinally scape-goats for men as well... proven by how many children don't have their fathers in their life.

Alaina - posted on 09/14/2012

So Fred is the one who should be doing all the thinking, yet the claim is "It's the womens body" so she gets all rights. So if it's the women's body, and nothing can happen unless she allows it, "Who?" should be doing the thinking?



Sounds like some women like a scapegoat's milk better than their own to me right?

Brittany - posted on 09/14/2012

Fred needs to think about all of this before he lays the seed.



While it is part of the womens body-- it is completely up to her, so the same way she should try to prevent abortion, he should as well.



I agree it is sad that 'dad' doesn't get a say -- however such is the way of the world given the fact there are soooo many babies unsupported by their fathers. And soo many single mothers struggling to support their children.



Fred can't request an abortion - or a live birth, so he needs to ensure all of this, before he has sex. The act of sex, almost like a signed contract, gives the women righs to do these things., and she is supported by law.

Kristin - posted on 09/12/2012

I believe that if one gets pregnant it is up to both parents to decide on what to do; whether to keep the baby, abort the baby, or to give the baby up for adoption. It is a hard decision so my best advice is to use protection until you are in a commited relationship, married, or finacially stable enough to raise a child on your own with no expected help from the father. I believe that since it takes 2 people to make a baby it takes 2 people to make a decision on what to do with an unplanned pregnancy.