Bare bottom spanking

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Jodi - posted on 06/22/2016

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Maybe it can't be prosecuted as sexual assault but that doesn't mean it isn't. It is similar to the argument that you can't hit an adult, because that would be assault, but you can hit a child legally (go figure). If you hit an adult on the bare bottom and it was unwelcome, THAT would be a sexual assault. And yet.....an adult can do it to a child? Can people not see something wrong with this picture?

Below is an interesting article. If you are questioning whether spanking a bare bottom is a form of sexual abuse or sexual assault, then this puts it in perspective. Maybe it isn't legally prosecutable as sexual assault, but that doesn't mean it is ok. Where I live it constitutes child abuse. I think you will find it is in most places even if not explicitly spelled out - it certainly isn't "reasonable chastisement" (the term used in many laws that don't ban hitting your kids).

http://www.nospank.net/donahue.htm

Michelle - posted on 07/08/2016

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You ladies should know by now that there's no point in debating with the pro spankers. They won't listen to any one else's point of view.
I am shutting down this thread since the OP has even left.
Michelle,
WtCoM Mod.

Jodi - posted on 07/08/2016

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But spanking is hitting, and hitting someone is violent. So saying it's not violent is justifying you hitting people who are smaller than you.

Why do you think the choice is hitting or talking? There are so MANY other tools to use. Talking doesn't work, so you next go-to is to hit? Hitting is NOT tough love. Tough love comes in many forms, but not hitting.

"Comparing a parent disciplining a child by spanking to a husband hitting his wife is absurd."
Why is it absurd? Because its not okay to hit someone your own size, but it IS okay to hit someone smaller and weaker? I believe that is called bullying.

"Children don't take care of themselves, provide for themselves, pay bills, nor can they handle life challenging situations on their own. "
So that justifies why we can hit them? Because we take care of them?

"Spanking does NOT teach that hitting is okay. Parents have the right to discipline a child in a way that particular child will comprehend. Talking isn't always concrete."
Again, if your choice is talking or hitting, you need more tools in your toolbox.

" My point is, sometimes action is more effective than talking."
And again, noone is saying that action is NOT more effective than talking sometimes, but again, more tools in your toolbox means that action does not need to be hitting.

If you want to spank your children and it is legal where you live, then yes, that's your choice. I choose not to hit my children. And believe it or not, most of them (3 out of 4 - the youngest is still just reaching her teenage years) are now well disciplined, well rounded young adults. I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on the fact that it teaches that violence is okay. With the rise of domestic violence, we need to focus on other ways to manage and resolve our issues and model to our children that hitting is never a solution. We need to teach then that hitting is NEVER the answer.

If I can manage a classroom full of young teenagers (in fact an entire year group full of 13 year olds) without hitting them, but rather, with a myriad of other tools, then surely parents can manage their own small number of children without needing to hit them too. If there are other ways (and there are), then why? Why hit?

Ev - posted on 06/22/2016

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Snow White--I just read the entire postings listed here and I have a few things to add:
1) I am not a proponent of spanking at all.
2) In this country, and maybe other countries (USA is where I am), some states have laws against any kind of spanking.
3) I have also read other posts describing in detail how a spanking is done to the point it sounds like a ritual that this person is going through from taking down the pants, bending the child over in a certain way to get the best spot to perform the spanking, spanking until the child is screaming and crying loudly, spanking to the point of turning red or leaving marks, using all sorts of implements from brush handles to wooden spoons to switches and soon, making that child expose their red bottom to the world in a corner for 15 mins to 30 mins before getting a stern talking to. It is almost like they enjoy this kind of "spanking" a child. I find it over board and this is what you find on te pro-spanking forums.
4)A proper spanking is done with the clothing in place and enough to be felt without leaving a mark and then it is done.
5)In my state it is legal to spank but with the hand only on a covered bottom. If an implement is used and marks are found if it is reported that is called CHILD ABUSE.

Dove - posted on 06/22/2016

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Getting a 12 year old naked to spank her on her butt... yeah, no. A CLOTHED bottom spanking is not sexual assault... intentionally getting a preteen bare bottomed to spank them...

It may or may not be prosecutable, but that doesn't make it any less sick and twisted.

This conversation has been closed to further comments

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Jodi - posted on 07/08/2016

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FFS, hitting your kid is NOT "tough love". Tough love is allowing your child to experience natural or logical consequences to their actions at an age appropriate level. There is nothing natural or logical to hitting a child for poor choices. Break curfew? Freedom gets reined in. Used your phone inappropriately? Lose it until you can demonstrate you are capable of more appropriate choices. And in between all of that, educating them on their safety, and rewarding the correct behaviours. It's worked for me for almost 20 years. Perhaps if the only thing you find effective is spanking, you need to do some classes on parenting.

There is also NO respect in hitting your children. None. You can talk yourself into believing that, but there is no respect in a relationship between ANY beings (and that includes animals), that involves hitting, spanking, violence, however you want to or do not want to word it.

"Try it for yourself"

Really? I mean, really? The cane? That's just sick. Where I live, it would also land you in jail. And I'm glad our laws specify that use of any kind of implement is illegal....it should be. If you can't spank your kids with your own hand because it hurts your hand, then maybe you should leave them the fuck alone.

The "no punishment lobby"? Seriously? Noone here is saying no punishment. Noone. Of course there should be some level of consequence. But hitting? Absolutely unnecessary.

"emotive propaganda thinking. The latter is far easier; you do not have to think. "
Are you suggesting that parents who choose not to spank their children because they believe children have human rights means they don't have to think? This statement makes absolutely no sense. In fact, it is entirely the opposite. Parents who choose to discipline through natural or logical conseqences have to do so with great consideration to how the punishment will fit the crime and how to go about that consistently and with effectiveness. Spanking is easy - you just make a choice to hit the kid and it's done with. Maybe I misunderstood your meaning here - but not spanking doesn't mean there isn't cause and effect involved. You are just choosing to look at it that way.

" if one has a plethora of ineffective tools in their discipline box: wow, what a nice tool box you have there. "
If a parent has a plethora of ineffective tools then they probably should go to parenting classes.

Alan - posted on 07/08/2016

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No Dove

It was the discipline that was consensual, there is absolutely nothing sexual about the cane. Try it for yourself

Alan

Alan - posted on 07/08/2016

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Yes, spanking is hitting. But hitting is not necessarily violent. Further, it is impossible to legislate or even codify what discipline needs to be administered for different children behaving in different circumstances. That would be like having judicial mandatory sentencing for every possible crime. The parent is the judge, jury and the witness. ( The alternative is state run families such as those run by Nicholai Chaucheska of Romania ) .Tough love might seem harsh to some, but if it's outcome is a respectful, self disciplined, self motivating independent young adults who can set themselves socially acceptable boundaries, then it is my view that tough love (a temporary sore bottom) is a vastly superior option than violent young thrill seekers patrolling the streets looking opportunism and risking horrendous consequences in the process.

I have not yet heard the no punishment lobby offer up any effective, meaningful, operationally functional alternative to tough love discipline. There are really only two kinds of thinking. Cause and affect thinking, and emotive propaganda thinking. The latter is far easier; you do not have to think. And further, if parents are undisciplined themselves, then where does the problem really lie ? Finally, if one has a plethora of ineffective tools in their discipline box: wow, what a nice tool box you have there.

I am not being facetious, even thought it might seem like it because there are necessarily numerous avenues available. But when all else fails, there is one time honoured method that must not be disguarded on ideological grounds.

Alan

Amanda - posted on 07/08/2016

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@Jodi
I can respect your outlook on spankings, but I disagree on a few things. Now, most people that disagree with spankings use the reasoning that "Spankings teach violence or teach kids to hit others" but I disagree with that. Spanking is not meant as a violent tool, it's used as a tool of discipline. There are MANY ways to discipline a child, including spanking. It works for MOST kids, because it makes them think twice before doing something harmful or senseless. Now, talking works for some kids, actions work for others. If you tell your child NOT to do something and explain to them why they SHOULDN'T do it, then they decide to disregard your authority and do it anyway, are you going to continue talking until you're blue in the face and it's not sinking in, or are you going to take action and teach your child tough love? It's one or the other. Sometimes talking is ineffective.

Secondly, you said "If my husband were to hit me, that's still assault" guess what? That's also considered domestic violence.
Comparing a parent disciplining a child by spanking to a husband hitting his wife is absurd. Your spouse is not your CHILD. You can't discipline them. You are both adults who are equal parties. Children and parents are not equal. Children don't take care of themselves, provide for themselves, pay bills, nor can they handle life challenging situations on their own. They are off springs of their PARENTS and parents are there to guide, nurture, protect, and discipline them until they are responsible for themselves as adults. That's why parents are called legal GUARDIANS, because they have an assigned duty to watch over and guard their children. So, in no way, shape or form are parents and children the same as husband and wife.
Can a husband ground his wife? NO. Can a husband give his wife a curfew? NO. Can a husband discipline his wife? NO. Can a husband take his wife's belongings away as punishment? NO. Can a husband spank his wife as a form of discipline? NO! Parents have the RIGHT to do those things because they are in a position of authority over a child's life. So, your logic is inadequate.

Spanking does NOT teach that hitting is okay. Parents have the right to discipline a child in a way that particular child will comprehend. Talking isn't always concrete.

For example:
A police officer points a gun at you and gives you instructions to hold your hands up and get on the ground, but you don't abide, yet they tell you a SECOND time to follow their orders, you still don't abide, then they shoot you, well they gave you a VERBAL warning more than once, you chose not to listen, so they had to take ACTION. Does that make sense to you? My point is, sometimes action is more effective than talking. Goodnight.

Dove - posted on 07/07/2016

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Um... if the bare butt spanking between you and the teacher was consensual... that's called sexual... and if you were a minor that's called grooming and molestation.

Jodi - posted on 07/07/2016

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" maintain that physical punishment with good will and good intent is acceptable. "

And if my husband were to hit me and try to tell me that it was with good intention as he was trying to correct the behaviour he did not approve of, that is still assault. Intent does not make it less so. If it is assault for an adult to hit an adult, regardless of the reasoning, it should be assault for an adult to hit someone even smaller and weaker....a child.

I will never agree that there can be a good way to spank. Or that one can hit a child with a sense of good will. We spend so much time trying to teach our children to resolve their issues without violence. And yet.....when a parent hits a child, they are demonstrating that this IS how to resolve some issues. It makes absolutely no sense. How could it possibly make any sense to a child?

Alan - posted on 07/07/2016

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Hi Jodi

Thank you for your reply. Please understand firstly that my experience is anachronistic. (mid seventies: things were done very differently back then) Secondly, there is a sense in which I share some agreement with you. C P is last resort. My three children rarely ever got the wooden spoon and we always sat down to discussed the matter first. I categorically would not call their few punishments abuse. Incidentally, C P was still legal in the school I attended up until 1995.

Yes, excessive beating is abuse, and my experience is way outside of the ball-park. I still hold bitter anger towards my late mother; but not so my school teacher. She would sit me down and we would have a discussion until we reached agreement. A number of times I would leave the discussion unscathed. Some other times I would return the next day and confess that I deserved punishment which would be given after school and always in private; and my view of those events, was that the punishment was consensual and not abuse. I also value her treating me with respect. Because of those discussions, I began to apply some form of self discipline by asking myself whether Miss Souter would approve of my conduct.

The miscreant has to change them-self; or more to the point, has to see the need for change, and for me, being punished had a positive outcome.

To advance that all hitting is wrong, or to try and extrapolate that because it is wrong hit adults it is therefore wrong to hit children is invalid.

I have never read that most inmates were spanked a children. I have read some of Shere Hite's works and also Leonard James Park's works and never found that proposition in either of their writings. I am not trying to be semantic but while there may be fine line between hitting and punishing, I maintain that physical punishment with good will and good intent is acceptable.

I think that modern sociological models have very few answers as to how to set boundaries with children and how to evoke respect from them and how to train children in the discipline of 'self-discipline'. Boundaries, respect and self-discipline are all but extinct in many communities. I need to sign of for now. If you would like to continue, I shall reply to-morrow.

With thanks for you reply Alan

Dove - posted on 07/07/2016

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I'm glad I never made it to prison either.... especially since I don't break the law (and never been spanked). ;)

Jodi - posted on 07/07/2016

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Alan, did you also read that most people in jail were spanked as children? There's no such thing as hitting someone out of love. Would you hit your wife and use that as the reason? ANY hitting is not okay. Hitting a child until they are red raw is illegal. You were abused.

Alan - posted on 07/07/2016

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I recently watched a program about how some prison communities were trying to rehabilitate teenage offender who had committed serious criminal offenses like rape attempted murder. The rehab. program is the last hope. If the juveniles fail the program, then it is off to the adult prison where they will endure being raped on a daily basis. The program coinordinator said that prison guards do not intervene in this practice: it is just part of being in prison. How horrific.

I was once shared with a librarian, who was helping me find a book about C P, my experience of being punished naked: home ; school; and private boarding situation. Her reply set me back a little. She volunteered that she also regularly beat her son similarly. Having myself been beaten well past pubity, I asked her how old her son was when she stopped beating him. Her reply was that "when he no longer needed it." A wise answer

I acknowledge the potential damage that can be done by C P. but surely discipline, given in love and for the child's benefit and not the administrators pleasure, might go a long way to keeping young boys out of jail.

My home life was violent from a sadistic mother and her violent husband both of whom ignominiously evicted me at quite a young age. My correction started at school, initiated by a caring female school teacher who tanned my bare hide red raw when ever she FELT THAT I NEEDED IT. This correction work was reinforced by another female school teacher with whom I boarded for six years.

I don't want to start a controversy but I am so glad that I never made it to prison.

Snow - posted on 06/22/2016

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As a child I was spanked a total of twice; both for the same reason. Around the age of 5 I started darting out onto the street without looking for cars. My mother tried to reason with me and explain what might happen, and tried other forms of punishment as well, but to no effect. For fear of my safety she gave me one of the spankings I described. After the second time I never did it again. Some things r so important that u cannot keep trying things that r not working. I am glad that my mother gave me those spankings, otherwise I may not be here today.

As with any punishment, one that isn't effective, shouldn't be used. The purpose of any punishment is to correct behaviour and not as retaliation or revenge. Considering risk vs. benefit is also very important.

Ev - posted on 06/22/2016

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My thing is this: A kid that is old enough understand things needs other forms of punishment/consequences. At five they are old enough to know what no means and that they can learn to get only what they need more than what they want. i see way to many parents give in to their kids in stores and give them whatever it is they whine and cry for just to shut the kid up so they do not have to deal with it. This is not just a toddler but older kids as well. I do not even agree with spanking once in a while.

I also know a kid that told his father that spanking did no good. What do you make of that?

Snow - posted on 06/22/2016

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I agree with u Evelyn; those r not spankings, that sounds like abuse. A spanking to me is a single firm swat on the bottom with an open hand, not something that will leave marks or is done out of anger. As mentioned previously, I don't think it should be a common occurrence, but a rare, last resort in extreme circumstances.

Dove - posted on 06/22/2016

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I'm referring to the bare bottom part more than just the age... You may not call it sexual assault and it may or may not be able to be prosecuted as sexual assault, but we aren't JUST referring to legal terms when talking about bare bottom spanking being sexual assault. You were the one that claimed it was 'misinformation'... and I was simply trying to explain how it is NOT misinformation.

Snow - posted on 06/22/2016

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The misinformation that I am referring to is that a bare bottom spanking constitutes sexual assault; it does not, at least not where I live. In order for an assault, which again a spanking is not considered to be where I live as long as it conforms to certain guidelines, to be considered a sexual assault, there must be a sexual intent. As with any crime, in order to be found guilty, mens rea (the intent) and actus reus (the act) must be proven beyond all reasonable doubt. I have never had any need to spank my daughter, but should it ever be required (and obviously I hope it never is), there would absolutely be nothing sexual about it. Hope this helps to clarify. Also, I sincerely apologize for any harshness of language on my part or any upset my opinions have caused, it was not my intent; I merely was surprised by the responses on this thread. I have no intention of arguing any further, but I hope u all have a nice day. Take care.

♫ Shawnn ♪♫♫ - posted on 06/21/2016

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I concur: What "misinformation" are you referring to? I just re-read the post and responses, and there is NO misinformation. Only truth.

♫ Shawnn ♪♫♫ - posted on 06/21/2016

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Actually, "snow white" (still lmao at that name)

I prefer to have conversations with people that can type full sentences, not text, but I've not taken you to task for that, now have I?

Sorry, but: beating someone's BARE ASS is not only assault, but sexual assault, and abuse.

Nadine - posted on 06/21/2016

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"Throwing verbal punches" , you mean like talking? Like being non-violent? Like discussing, albeit with stronger language than you would like? Yes, I consider child abuse worth of some strongly worded objections over violence. I consider it our right, our duty,to object to people sexually abusing children.

Snow - posted on 06/21/2016

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As I have said before, posting ur opinions r fine with me, I, however, don't see the value in using degrading language or being verbally abusive. U say u question the intelligence of people who would sooner throw a punch when someone disagrees with them rather than talk, but here u r throwing verbal punches instead of respectfully providing the resources u speak of. Wouldn't it be better to provide links to these resources instead of insults? I'm done posting to this thread; there is far too much negative emotion and misinformation here for my taste.

Dove - posted on 06/21/2016

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Well... telling someone that what they want to do w/ their child is SEXUAL ASSAULT... could certainly been seen as questioning their intelligence... or calling them a sick and twisted person that shouldn't have children....

Just because no one else used the actual words to question her intelligence doesn't mean we aren't all thinking the exact same things... ;)

Nadine - posted on 06/21/2016

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I resort to questioning anyone's intelligence when they feel that hitting a child is the only way they can think of to discipline. I also question the intelligence of people who would sooner throw a punch when someone disagrees with them rather than talk. We have a world of resources, study after study that shows how damaging spanking is, yet the "It sure set me straight" crowd keeps insisting that this is a valid form of discipline. That is sheer ignorance. It takes zero intelligence to slap a child, it is lazy, damaging parenting. And yes, I question anyone who, with a child at the age of 12, cannot think of a better way to get their point across to that child.

Snow - posted on 06/21/2016

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I don't see where anyone else resorted to questioning her intelligence; sorry if I am mistaken.

♫ Shawnn ♪♫♫ - posted on 06/21/2016

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Again, you picked on ONE person for answering the exact same as several others.

That doesn't work in my book.

Snow - posted on 06/21/2016

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The reason her response was unhelpful was that she offered no actual solutions, only criticism and actually resorted to questioning the original posters intelligence, which is rude. Taylor posted to ask for help, not to be abused. There is no problem with posting ur opinions on issues, but I dislike it when people r unable to do so respectfully.

♫ Shawnn ♪♫♫ - posted on 06/21/2016

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Actually, "snow white", Nadine's response was no different than mine, or Jodi's , or Dove's...

furthermore, it was truthful, so why is that insane and unhelpful?????

Snow - posted on 06/21/2016

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.... wow, what an insane, unhelpful response, Nadine.... I agree with Megan Elizabeth, try having a heart-to-heart with her and see if u can figure out what the underlying cause of her behaviour is. I don't disagree with the idea of an occasional spanking as a last resort in extreme situations, but I agree that she is a bit too old for it at this point. If after ur talk u r still having trouble, u can always try counseling if u truly think there is some sort of underlying issue, or instate consequences, such as grounding, removal of privileges, additional chores, loss of toys/activities she values.

Megan - posted on 06/20/2016

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Seems to me you remember how much you hated it. But honestly, at 12 you need to find a better way to get your point across to Emily. You could smack her but that won't actually help you figure out why she's acting up. Maybe try taking her to lunch just the two of you and after lots of positive time ask her about the times she's been acting up. "You know Emily you and I have always been so close, now you're getting older and I want to be sure you know i am always here for you. You really acted up the other day, and I'm worried that something is bothering you?
I'm a fan of this book it might really help, http://amzn.to/28K7HaE there a version for teens as well.
good luck,,, hugs to you and Emily... prayers too!

Nadine - posted on 06/18/2016

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Gross. Hell no. Spanking in general is abuse. Bare bottom is sexual abuse. Are you really not bright enough to parent without resorting to violence and sexual humilation?

Anita - posted on 06/18/2016

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I def think that 12 is too late for spanking...obviously a hot topic based on replies you have received! I did some spanking with my little ones when they were ages 1-4... and even up to maybe 5 I would threaten to spank...but I do think that there are better ways of discipline. The point of discipline is to teach the child right from wrong. And it is best received when the child knows you love them enough to CARE to discipline them. Certainly at 12 there are ways to teach other than a spank - taking away privileges, grounding, etc. My kids are 17, 14, 11, and 7...LOTS of discipline going on at my house - but I certainly try to communicate that I love them no matter what. Take Care and Good Luck! XO NashvilleMAMA

~♥Little Miss - posted on 06/18/2016

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Yes, it is WAY to late to start spanking. Find another route of discipline. She is 12. Typically this is going to be the age where problems begin, and spanking will make it worse. I mean, if you cannot figure out how to discipline without hitting, what will you do when she is 15? Still bend her over your knee? Nope.

Actions equal consequence. If she is having bad actions, she gets punished, not hit for making mistakes.

Michelle - posted on 06/18/2016

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Don't abuse your child, find another way to discipline.
Or you can post in the pro spanking communities if you want to be told you are doing the right thing as most people here will tell you it's abuse (and it is).

♫ Shawnn ♪♫♫ - posted on 06/17/2016

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Yes. You are an adult. Find a mature way of handling things rather than assaulting another human

Jodi - posted on 06/17/2016

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Really? Don't hit your kid. Bare bottom spanking? That's a form of sexual assault.

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