How do you protect your child againist another child that hasn't been immunized?

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Caroline - posted on 05/12/2009

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Quoting Kate:

Actually, your "immunized" children pose a far greater risk to UNimmunized children. Many of the 'most important' vaccines (including varicella, MMR) are live-virus vaccines, which means that for weeks after your child is vaccinated, he or she can actually get another child sick! Children who do not get vaccines are less likely to get sick, and if they do, get sick less severely. Vaccines DO NOT reduce the severity of illness at all; they INCREASE the severity.

I wouldn't be worried about other peoples' kids, and to even ask this question is pretty insulting.


I am an immunologist, and I'm not sure where you got this, but it's not entirely correct information.  Children that do not get vaccines aren't sick less than children that do, nor do they get sick less severely. 



Additionally, live virus vaccines do not pose a threat to other people, you can't get sick from it, that's a common misconception.  For example, natural measles virus normally grows in cells that line the back of the throat, skin or lungs. Natural measles virus reproduces itself thousands of times, often causes severe disease, and is passed on to the next person unchanged.

But the process of "cell culture adaptation" changes all of that. Natural measles virus was first taken from someone infected with measles. The virus was then "grown" in cells taken from chick embryos. By growing the virus in chick embryo cells it became less and less able to grow in human cells. This happened because the genes that tell measles virus how to reproduce itself were changed. Now the virus reproduced itself very poorly.

When this vaccine virus (a now modified form of the natural virus) is put back into the body, it grows very poorly. Whereas natural measles virus reproduces itself thousands of times during natural infection, the measles vaccine virus reproduces itself probably fewer than 20 times. That is why natural measles virus causes illness, but measles vaccine virus doesn't. However, because the measles vaccine virus reproduces itself a little bit, it induces immunity against measles that is life long



The question isn't insulting, it's realisitc.  Children that have not been vaccinated can bring a disease into a group of people.  Most vaccinations are effective between 85-95%, so there is a risk of a vaccinated child getting sick from a disease that shouldn't be around anymore due to an unvaccinated child.  The more children that go unvaccinated, the worse it will get. 

Sarah - posted on 05/22/2009

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Quoting Deepali:

Sarah, the first clinical trial involving just over 20,000 women did not have any teenage boys. To top it less 1,200 participants were under 16 years of age! The clinical trial including boys was this one
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/janak...



If we sat around waiting to see the lifelong effects of a vaccine, none would ever make it to the market.



In the years in which the trails were undertaken, they were able to proove that, while the body held the immunity, which we do know is for at least 5 years, it was effective in stopping the development of abnormal tissues in the cervix leading to cancer caused by the HPV strains 16 & 18. They were also able to demonstrate it's safety, with only minimal side effects, ie: redness, swelling, headaches & nausea. They have found no causal link between the Gardasil vaccine & the fainting & loss of consiousness, besides the fact that it was happening in squeely 12 & 13 year old girls, most likely because of a fear of needles. There were no reported deaths, none have since occered in Australia & no causal link has been found with any death in any other country.



 



If any serious adverse events were to be caually linked to that vaccine, or any other for that matter, that placed a great risk on a large number of the population, like RotaSheild, as you pointed out & the Swine Flu vaccine from the 1970's, they would be removed. Simple as that.

Kate - posted on 05/12/2009

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Quoting Kristin:









Kate:






So let me get this right....because our immunized children "may" cause your non-immunized child to get sick because you chose not to protect him/her...we should stop immunizing them...even though we would be subjecting them to the measels, polio, menigitis,etc.??????






That is ridiculous.






 






Also, responding to others saying "why immunize if you don't believe they are protected" .  I beleive that my children are as safe as they can be... I am not so worried about them, and worried for the innocent children who's parent have not choosen to protect them, and the future of society.






 






 






 





You think parents don't protect their children just because they made a different choice than you did?  Seriously?  I don't believe my daughter is ANY threat to anyone else's child.  And the argument that my child would get sick and be contagious before I knew is also ridiculous, because vaccinated kids still get bad colds, stomach flu, even whooping cough and things they are "supposed" to be protected against, which they can then pass on to other children.  My child isn't going to get anyone's kid sick anymore often than someone else's will.  Please.



As far as measles, chicken pox, etc. -- what are you scared of??  The death rate from measles is currently about 1 in a million in a developed country!  In 2008, about 250 people in the US got measles.  11% were hospitalized.  NO ONE died (go look it up on CDC.gov).  But at least 7 people died of the MMR.  And you're really more scared of measles?



If your child is immuno-compromised, that's a special issue that you'll have to deal with for your child's whole life.  And you'll have to guard against everyone and everything, not just these "tragic" illnesses.



Caroline -- I understand what you're saying, but the facts I'm looking up on CDC and WHO websites don't seem to support this line of reasoning.  How do you explain that in some cases, children DO get the illness from the shot?  Or have other serious, adverse reactions?



Finally, no GOOD science has debunked a link between vaccines and any disorder (autism, ADHD, etc.).  There is overwhelming anecdotal evidence to support a link, and it needs to be followed up on with large, double-blind studies conducted by independent scientists (where possible).  I've read the original "studies" debunking this link and I am not impressed.

Kate - posted on 05/12/2009

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Actually, your "immunized" children pose a far greater risk to UNimmunized children. Many of the 'most important' vaccines (including varicella, MMR) are live-virus vaccines, which means that for weeks after your child is vaccinated, he or she can actually get another child sick! Children who do not get vaccines are less likely to get sick, and if they do, get sick less severely. Vaccines DO NOT reduce the severity of illness at all; they INCREASE the severity.

I wouldn't be worried about other peoples' kids, and to even ask this question is pretty insulting.

Lya - posted on 02/01/2013

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Vaccines don’t require that 100% of the population is vaccinated in order to eradicate a disease. This is called herd immunity.

Herd Immunity

The entire population does not actually need to be vaccinated in order for a vaccine to be effective. According to the CDC,

“The theory behind the development of herd immunity is: in diseases that can be
passed from person to person, it is more difficult to pass that disease easily when
there are those who are immune to it. The more immune individuals there are, the
less likely it is that a susceptible person will come into contact with someone who
has the disease” – from slide 16

For example, percentages of the population which needs to be vaccinated in order for a vaccination to be effective are as follows for various diseases:

Diptheria - 85%
Measles - 83-94%
Mumps - 75-86%
Polio - 80-85%
an so on . . .

This information is all from the CDC website. You can research it yourself. Anyway, I don't understand the logic behind a vaccinated child being at risk from an unvaccinated child. Isn't the vaccinated child supposed to be protected?

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Lucy - posted on 08/08/2013

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Be more worried about people who've just been vaccinated with a live virus, they shed the disease, this is well known particularly with Oral Polio Vaccines, Shingles Vaccines and Flu Vaccines.

Unvaccinated kids are the most healthy, don't worry about them, worry about why the vaccines are failing and causing disease.

Joni - posted on 01/27/2013

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The question is why are you worried about protecting you child? If they are up to date on shots they are supposed to be soo great at protecting them afterall isn't that why people vaccinate? Well some. Not me!

Amy - posted on 05/07/2012

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You should consider trying to bring your child's fever down before 105/106. At that point it can be fatal and/or cause severe problems. If you don't want to use medicine that is your choice and fine but please don't let a fever get that high.

Liz - posted on 03/17/2011

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Can i just ask what you mean by children who havent been immunised? Sorry, Im just curious, because I have chosen not to immunise my baby? Whats there to protect against?. The government and health professionals place way to much hype on immunising your kids, but at the end of the day, we are their mothers and we know what is best for our kids and what we feel WORKS. A child that has been immunised is basically no different from a child who hasnt if you ask me. the only difference is that my child has a natural protection and those children have drugs running through them to protect them. If anything, why shouldnt I protect my baby from kids who have been imunised?. Just because its all mainstream doesnt mean it works. I went to the doctors to get a tetnus shot for my daughter before she flew overseas with her grandparents to samoa, and the nurse looked at me like i was a bad mother becasue a red flag came up next to my babies name?. So i asked her if she knew the exact ingredients in the tetnus shot and how it will help my daughter and she couldnt tell me. All she could tell me that the tetnus shot was a mixture of another drug. To be honest, does anyone really know what is in these shots that we so willingly give our children because of what THEY say?. So in other words people are quick to judge but dont even stop to think. Im a mother and I want to protect my baby, but at the same time im not going to mindless. I fell that my baby is fine and until she is 2 yrs old then I will give her the REQUIRED shots. overall, please I find your enquiry offensive.

Liz - posted on 03/17/2011

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Can i just ask what you mean by children who havent been immunised? Sorry, Im just curious, because I have chosen not to immunise my baby? Whats there to protect against?. The government and health professionals place way to much hype on immunising your kids, but at the end of the day, we are their mothers and we know what is best for our kids and what we feel WORKS. A child that has been immunised is basically no different from a child who hasnt if you ask me. the only difference is that my child has a natural protection and those children have drugs running through them to protect them. If anything, why shouldnt I protect my baby from kids who have been imunised?. Just because its all mainstream doesnt mean it works. I went to the doctors to get a tetnus shot for my daughter before she flew overseas with her grandparents to samoa, and the nurse looked at me like i was a bad mother becasue a red flag came up next to my babies name?. So i asked her if she knew the exact ingredients in the tetnus shot and how it will help my daughter and she couldnt tell me. All she could tell me that the tetnus shot was a mixture of another drug. To be honest, does anyone really know what is in these shots that we so willingly give our children because of what THEY say?. So in other words people are quick to judge but dont even stop to think. Im a mother and I want to protect my baby, but at the same time im not going to mindless. I fell that my baby is fine and until she is 2 yrs old then I will give her the REQUIRED shots. overall, please I find your enquiry offensive.

Sarah - posted on 05/25/2009

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You see that's the difference between nonvaxers and vaxers. We want studies which show how/why/what effect vaccines have on the immune system of a newborn. How it affects them in the long run. We want to know why is it that there are some babies who react very differently when given vaccines. As long as these burning questions aren't answered the twain shall never meet.



 






The way I see it, the difference between vaxers & non-vaxers is that we have seen the effects that a wild type virus has on a babies immune system, & the long term effects that it can have on them & we believe that the minute risks associated with vaccines far outweigh the the high percentage of risks associated with getting the disease.



I look at the effect that Whooping Cough can have on an adult. A friend of mine, who is 25, has been going to the gym several times a week for more than a year, & eats well, has just had Whooping Cough. She has had to cancel her gym membership as she cannot do any strenuouse exercise for at least 6 months due to the damage to her lungs....and she's an adult, I could not immagine that happening to my babies.



 



This was printed in a major Sydney newspaper today & while I think the reporting was quite blunt, the realities of the epidemic that are pointed out are quite true.



http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/st...,22049,25530718-5001031,00.html



When Dana died, my daughter was just 2 months old, I had barely had the chance to inhale her & Dana was less than half her age, she was brand new, and she is one of 3 babies who have died in Australia this year alone. This is why I will continue to immunise my children, why on Saturday morning, after my son has his swimming lessons & I have had quite enough of his behaviour from being tired & grumpy first thing in the morning & all I want to do is make a hasty retreat home, he will come with me while his sister has her 6 month needles & why 3 months later, he will be back there having his pre-school shots. It's what I will do to protect them & what I will do to protect my friends baby that will hopefully make an entrance into this world sooner rather than later, why her partner & his family just had their boosters & why she will do so right after she gives birth. This is the way we view the world. We know we live in a fool's paradise, where none of the kids we went to school with wore calipers, but why so many of our parents school friends did.

Deepali - posted on 05/23/2009

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Quoting Sarah:



Quoting Deepali:

Sarah, the first clinical trial involving just over 20,000 women did not have any teenage boys. To top it less 1,200 participants were under 16 years of age! The clinical trial including boys was this one
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/janak...






If we sat around waiting to see the lifelong effects of a vaccine, none would ever make it to the market.






In the years in which the trails were undertaken, they were able to proove that, while the body held the immunity, which we do know is for at least 5 years, it was effective in stopping the development of abnormal tissues in the cervix leading to cancer caused by the HPV strains 16 & 18. They were also able to demonstrate it's safety, with only minimal side effects, ie: redness, swelling, headaches & nausea. They have found no causal link between the Gardasil vaccine & the fainting & loss of consiousness, besides the fact that it was happening in squeely 12 & 13 year old girls, most likely because of a fear of needles. There were no reported deaths, none have since occered in Australia & no causal link has been found with any death in any other country.






 






If any serious adverse events were to be caually linked to that vaccine, or any other for that matter, that placed a great risk on a large number of the population, like RotaSheild, as you pointed out & the Swine Flu vaccine from the 1970's, they would be removed. Simple as that.






You see that's the difference between nonvaxers and vaxers. We want studies which show how/why/what effect vaccines have on the immune system of a newborn. How it affects them in the long run. We want to know why is it that there are some babies who react very differently when given vaccines. As long as these burning questions aren't answered the twain shall never meet.



I suggest parents who are questioning vaccines also spend some time reading Hilary Butler's blog



http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/BlogRe...



http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/BlogRe...



http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/...'s_Desk/post/Whooping_cough_lies,_ad_infinitum/



http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp...



 

Deepali - posted on 05/22/2009

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Quoting Morag:



Quoting Deepali:






Swine flu a pandemic?? Hype? For sure but pandemic? Of course not! For those who have been following the swine flu hysteria, know very well that it was nothing but hype and fear propaganda. More people die of hunger in a day than all the people who have died in swine flu! I have the deepest condolences for the people and their families who lost their loved ones to swine flu but I don't think this is a pandemic.








 









 






I think you are confusing the terminology Pandemic with epidemic. Just encase you are confused I've added a link http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-diff... Pandemic means that more cases are seen than normal in a year and are seen world wide. Its peoples ignorance over the terminology that has made people become hysterical over this. They hear the word pandemic and illnesses such as ebola spring to mind, where infact we have had many pandemics over the years which have rarely resulted in more than a few hundred deaths.






I was using Swine flu to highlight the mass hysteria and how crazy it has made people despite it not actually killing many people.. If all of a sudden several children suddenly got measles and a couple died, no matter how few, what would happen? People would panic. In what you said here you actually support what I am saying... People would become scared and hysterical and yet you try to use it as a method to discredit what I am saying. 






In reference to your analogy to children dying of hunger, remember more babies die in car accidents every day than children who die from side effects of vaccinations. Did you put your kid in a car this week? Most parents can't choose not to starve their children. But you can choose not to put your child in a car and yet despite all the proven risks, you still do that? You don't even risk your childs life by putting him/her in a car because it might save their lives in the long run (i.e if you vaccinate), you do it because you need a pint of milk or a newspaper. Its the equivilent of giving your child a sugar pill to keep them happy that increases their risk of cancer.






You insinuation that you are more educated because you have studied vaccinations implies by default that all parents who choose to vaccinate are therefore uneducated. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and I think you only succeed in alienating or upsetting people with your methods of trying to "teach" them. Your response to me is a classic example of this and maybe you should realise that some people will disagree with you but you don't need to be so agressively defensive about it.






You are the one who wished to cite facts and websites constantly. According to the CDC the fact about measles is that more unvaccinated people contract this illness than vaccinated and that even though it has mostly been eliminated from the US, because of your high rates of immigration and tourism, the disease can still come into the country and infect people. The rest of the world hasn't been as successful as the US, and still has measles. I only cited the one disease and made no links in terms of non vaccination and vaccination. It was mearly in reference to some peoples erroneous comments that measles will never come back and that more vaccinated people contract measles than vaccinated. If you don't like those facts because they directly highlight risks you take with your children, don't read it :) Or don't put your child in that car. ;)






 






 






I don't ever recall saying anything remotely close to that. I don't believe that moms who vax their children are uneducated or not informed. But I do know that I have done my research and I am fully informed of the risks and benefits of my decision.



If you have been following my replies so closely, you may have even observed the links I put which showed the maximum cases of pertussis, mumps in vaccinated individuals. So what's your take on that?



Do you know that one of the major reasons why polio is still endemic in India is the OPV! Children who have received the OPV nearly 10-15 times still end up with polio! There has been no epidemiological studies on the prevalence of Hib in India and still it has been included in the vaccine schedule. Same for Hep B. Last time I checked Prevnar was included without any regard to the disease burden in India. So for me it's a clear case of money-mongering pharma greed and very little concern for the populace in general.



It is becoming increasingly clear to me that there's never going to be a clear consensus on this topic and it's best to leave it at that. But don't go around selectively quoting me and saying I am insinuating and insulting etc.



I wish someone had talked to me about vaccinations even before my child was born. I believed they were the best thing too! But after I saw my child react so violently to the Hep B and DTaP shots, I began to make a connection even though the pedi said I was imagining! Although I was a little late with the research, but now there's no stopping and my child will not receive any more vaccines. I want her to be devoid of any more toxic harm at least as much as I can.



I will do my best to avoid putting foreign/toxic materials into my child's body. Going out in a car has it's own risk but there is a risk to walking on the roads as well. But that's something I will have to live with. But I can do my best to help my child have a healthy, normal functioning immune system and try not to overload it with a cocktail of chemicals which have been proven to cause life-long problems.



I am happy with the path that I have now chosen for my family and I wish you the same.



 



 

[deleted account]

Oh my god, a simple question was asked because she did not have much information and some of you turn around and attack her and each other. I got half way through the first page and stopped reading cause it turned into a bitch fight. This place is for us mums to ask each other questions not battle each other.

Morag - posted on 05/22/2009

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Quoting Deepali:





Swine flu a pandemic?? Hype? For sure but pandemic? Of course not! For those who have been following the swine flu hysteria, know very well that it was nothing but hype and fear propaganda. More people die of hunger in a day than all the people who have died in swine flu! I have the deepest condolences for the people and their families who lost their loved ones to swine flu but I don't think this is a pandemic.






 





 



I think you are confusing the terminology Pandemic with epidemic. Just encase you are confused I've added a link http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-diff... Pandemic means that more cases are seen than normal in a year and are seen world wide. Its peoples ignorance over the terminology that has made people become hysterical over this. They hear the word pandemic and illnesses such as ebola spring to mind, where infact we have had many pandemics over the years which have rarely resulted in more than a few hundred deaths.



I was using Swine flu to highlight the mass hysteria and how crazy it has made people despite it not actually killing many people.. If all of a sudden several children suddenly got measles and a couple died, no matter how few, what would happen? People would panic. In what you said here you actually support what I am saying... People would become scared and hysterical and yet you try to use it as a method to discredit what I am saying. 



In reference to your analogy to children dying of hunger, remember more babies die in car accidents every day than children who die from side effects of vaccinations. Did you put your kid in a car this week? Most parents can't choose not to starve their children. But you can choose not to put your child in a car and yet despite all the proven risks, you still do that? You don't even risk your childs life by putting him/her in a car because it might save their lives in the long run (i.e if you vaccinate), you do it because you need a pint of milk or a newspaper. Its the equivilent of giving your child a sugar pill to keep them happy that increases their risk of cancer.



You insinuation that you are more educated because you have studied vaccinations implies by default that all parents who choose to vaccinate are therefore uneducated. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and I think you only succeed in alienating or upsetting people with your methods of trying to "teach" them. Your response to me is a classic example of this and maybe you should realise that some people will disagree with you but you don't need to be so agressively defensive about it.



You are the one who wished to cite facts and websites constantly. According to the CDC the fact about measles is that more unvaccinated people contract this illness than vaccinated and that even though it has mostly been eliminated from the US, because of your high rates of immigration and tourism, the disease can still come into the country and infect people. The rest of the world hasn't been as successful as the US, and still has measles. I only cited the one disease and made no links in terms of non vaccination and vaccination. It was mearly in reference to some peoples erroneous comments that measles will never come back and that more vaccinated people contract measles than vaccinated. If you don't like those facts because they directly highlight risks you take with your children, don't read it :) Or don't put your child in that car. ;)



 



 

Leah - posted on 05/22/2009

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umm perhaps this has already been said but... If your child is immunized why do you have to protect them? There is not one way to do everything and it's no more wrong for someone not to immunize than it is to immunize. You can have all the opinions you want. They can be backed by whatever "facts" you choose. Judge not lest you be judged... ( oh and btw, before you throw me to the wolves... my kids got al his shots, on time, everytime.)

Tonya - posted on 05/22/2009

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WHY DON'T YOU JUST PUT THEM IN A PLASTIC BUBBLE YOU CAN'T PROTECT THEM FROM EVERYTHING

Majeron - posted on 05/22/2009

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Hi there!





I'm new in the Circle of Moms! ;)


I would like to impart my personal experience on this topic.


Back in my native country when I was yet a child, myself, my 3 brothers and sister did not have these vaccine that they have now. At age 12, I was exposed to an adult person who had about- to-be- healed chicken fox (that’s the time disease becomes highly communicable) and I definitely got it few days later, maybe because I was not feeling well already when I got exposed. Those chicken fox bumps like water balloon were very itchy. It was not so bad on me though compare to my brother’s (he followed after I got healed), I just had some good amount of it on my body and face. Anyway, to make long story short, not all of us kids in my family got sickened by it (only myself and one brother).We were all equally exposed to it but not everyone was vulnerable at that time.





So what do you all can say about this?

Christine - posted on 05/21/2009

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If your child is immunized, don't worry about what other people do. Your child is protected with their vaccinations. Also, many of the illnesses we vaccinate for have been almost completely irradicated in this country. The few children who are not vaccinated do not cause a significant health threat. Keep in mind that some children who are not completely vaccinated may have had serious vaccine reactions. Their parents may be trying to protect them by avoiding further vaccination, just as you protect your child by getting them vaccinated.

Katie - posted on 05/21/2009

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The whole purpose of the vaccine is to protect your child from the diseases. If the vaccine did its job then other children aren't a danger to your child.

Joanna - posted on 05/21/2009

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i agree with everyone here, however i would by exposing a child while they are young to viruses etc strengthens their immune system . when we were all young we played in the beck, got mucky played with our friends it never hurt us

Deepali - posted on 05/21/2009

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Sarah, the first clinical trial involving just over 20,000 women did not have any teenage boys. To top it less 1,200 participants were under 16 years of age! The clinical trial including boys was this one

http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news...



The longest followup for the participants was four years. So they don't yet fully know how long the immunity from the vaccine lasts. Hence booster shots may soon be included.



Lets not forget the fiasco that was RotaShield which came out in 1990 after FDA approval but was later withdrawn because of the serious side effect of intussusception. This of course does not prove that Gardasil is dangerous but it does show that adverse effects sometimes show up in the years after FDA approval.



http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/janak...

Sarah - posted on 05/20/2009

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Quoting Tara:

Sarah....

"but it is not known whether vaccination of males can either prevent transmission of HPV or provide protection against genital HPV infection, genital warts, anogenital dysplasia or anogenital cancers. 2vHPV vaccine is not registered for use in males.
There is no recommendation for vaccination of males at this time due to the lack of clinical efficacy data."

So males should use this vaccine anyway? Even when "it is not known whether vaccination of males can either prevent transmission of HPV or provide protection against genital HPV infection, genital warts, anogenital dysplasia or anogenital cancers"

Are you serious!?

Here is a link where Deepli is talking about how Gardasil has not been proven SAFE for little girls:

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/cber... & Related Biological

For more information go to www.NVIC.org.


OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!! All I said was that it had been tested on boys, in response to the claim that it had only ever been tested on 1100 or so girls. No it was tested on more than 21000 people INCLUDING boys. The male participents were tested for the safety issue, the TGA has approved it as safe but has not added it to the NIP as they had not proved it to be efficient, which they will do further studies on. So no, I'm not going to rush & have them give the needle to my son today (he's only 3 for starters) as at this stage there is no point, but I would have no problem letting him have it if efficiency studies showed it to be effective in reducing the risk of HPV spread to women or, for what they are also looking into, reducing the risk of penile & anal cancer in men.



In Australia, the Gardisal vaccine is given to girls at 12-13 years of age as part of the NIP & until June to to women up 26 as part of a catch up programme.  So i am not worried about it's safety in 'little' girls. The TGA has establsihed this age is the optimal age to give this vaccine as the chance that girls this age have been exposed to HPV is pretty remote, so the vaccine is at it's most effective.



Here is a link to the results from clinical trials, which do state how much aluminum was used in the placebo.



http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/intern...$File/hpv-review.pdf

[deleted account]

Quoting Tracy:

I have a question for those parents who choose not to immunize their children. From most of the posts, it seems you are worried about toxins. Most claim their children have never been on antibiotics either. So, my question is this: If you child came down with a serious infection(kidney for example) would you use antibiotics or not? If your child was diagnosed with leukemia, would you choose chemotherapy or not. I'm not being sarcastic, I am interested in hearing honest replies, because, as I said, most of you are concerned about "toxins" in your childs life. So if they needed it medically would you consider "toxins" then. It seems you choose not to immunize as you don't believe they "need" it.Just curious really, I don't know anyone who hasn't had their child immunized so I can't have a conversation with them about it.


Hi Tracy,



I personally think vaccines are dangerous for small babies because of what they contain.  I also question the need for them in our clean developed world.  Injecting something nasty into someone healthy makes no sense to me, seeking medical help when someone is ill is what medical help is for and if my child was ill, I would get medical help without hesitation.



As for chemotherapy, again I have doubts as to its effectiveness but Ive never been in that position so I dont know how I would react.  If I had cancer I would refuse chemotherapy.  For my child, I dont know to be honest - I have read that parents who attempt to refuse chemo for their children end up being overruled in court, so it doesnt really sound like parents have much choice.



In my unvaccinated sons 21 months of life, he has had flu (4 months), rotavirus (19 months) and measles( 2  weeks ago!) ...none of which required any treatment at all.  Hes never seen a doctor or had antibiotics, Im still breastfeeding a bit and I think this helps his immune system fight these things with ease.  I dont mind answering any other questions, but perhaps you can message me or something (Im new to circle of moms so I dont know!) rather than have me dominate this thread!  Best wishes.

Nicole - posted on 05/20/2009

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I think this is 1 of the hardest issues we deal with as parents! I started immunizing my first child and at a year she had an anniphalactic attack due too her MMR. I was told not too do anymore of my children! As we just about lost her! My 1 question 2 parents who critisize me 4 this is, why would u worry when the vaccine is SUPPOSED 2 be 99.9% effective while the other children that arent! I think it is best 2 inform ourselves as much as possible and make decisions from there! I would never have given even 1 shot too my daughter had I known all I know now! A great place too begin this journey is with a book called "A CHILDS BEST SHOT", then go from there!

Tara - posted on 05/20/2009

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Sarah....

"but it is not known whether vaccination of males can either prevent transmission of HPV or provide protection against genital HPV infection, genital warts, anogenital dysplasia or anogenital cancers. 2vHPV vaccine is not registered for use in males.
There is no recommendation for vaccination of males at this time due to the lack of clinical efficacy data."

So males should use this vaccine anyway? Even when "it is not known whether vaccination of males can either prevent transmission of HPV or provide protection against genital HPV infection, genital warts, anogenital dysplasia or anogenital cancers"

Are you serious!?

Here is a link where Deepli is talking about how Gardasil has not been proven SAFE for little girls:

http://www.nvic.org/nvic-archives/pressr...

for immediate release
June 27, 2006


MERCK'S GARDASIL VACCINE NOT PROVEN SAFE FOR LITTLE GIRLS
National Vaccine Information Center Criticizes FDA for Fast Tracking Licensure

Washington, D.C. - The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is calling on the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) to just say "no" on June 29 to recommending "universal use" of Merck's Gardasil vaccine in all pre-adolescent girls. NVIC maintains that Merck's clinical trials did not prove the human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine designed to prevent cervical cancer and genital warts is safe to give to young girls.

"Merck and the FDA have not been completely honest with the people about the pre-licensure clinical trials," said NVIC president Barbara Loe Fisher. "Merck's pre and post-licensure marketing strategy has positioned mass use of this vaccine by pre-teens as a morality play in order to avoid talking about the flawed science they used to get it licensed. This is not just about teenagers having sex, it is also about whether Gardasil has been proven safe and effective for little girls."

The FDA allowed Merck to use a potentially reactive aluminum containing placebo as a control for most trial participants, rather than a non-reactive saline solution placebo.[1] A reactive placebo can artificially increase the appearance of safety of an experimental drug or vaccine in a clinical trial. Gardasil contains 225 mcg of aluminum and, although aluminum adjuvants have been used in vaccines for decades, they were never tested for safety in clinical trials. Merck and the FDA did not disclose how much aluminum was in the placebo.[2]

Animal and human studies have shown that aluminum can cause nerve cell death [3] and that vaccine aluminum adjuvants can allow aluminum to enter the brain, [4 5] as well as cause inflammation at the injection site leading to chronic joint and muscle pain and fatigue. [6 7] Nearly 90 percent of Gardasil recipients and 85 percent of aluminum placebo recipients followed-up for safety reported one or more adverse events within 15 days of vaccination, particularly at the injection site.[8] Pain and swelling at injection site occurred in approximately 83 percent of Gardasil and 73 percent of aluminum placebo recipients. About 60 percent of those who got Gardasil or the aluminum placebo had systemic adverse events including headache, fever, nausea, dizziness, vomiting, diarrhea, myalgia. [9 10] Gardasil recipients had more serious adverse events such as headache, gastroenteritis, appendicitis, pelvic inflammatory disease, asthma, bronchospasm and arthritis.

"Merck and the FDA do not reveal in public documents exactly how many 9 to 15 year old girls were in the clinical trials, how many of them received hepatitis B vaccine and Gardasil simultaneously, and how many of them had serious adverse events after being injected with Gardasil or the aluminum placebo. For example, if there were less than 1,000 little girls actually injected with three doses of Gardasil, it is important to know how many had serious adverse events and how long they were followed for chronic health problems, such as juvenile arthritis."

According to the Merck product manufacturer insert, there was 1 case of juvenile arthritis, 2 cases of rheumatoid arthritis, 5 cases of arthritis, and 1 case of reactive arthritis out of 11,813 Gardasil recipients plus 1 case of lupus and 2 cases of arthritis out of 9,701 participants primarily receiving an aluminum containing placebo. Clinical trial investigators dismissed most of the 102 Gardasil and placebo associated serious adverse events, including 17 deaths, that occurred in the clinical trials as unrelated.

"There is too little long term safety and efficacy data, especially in young girls, and too little labeling information on contraindications for the CDC to recommend Gardasil for universal use, which is a signal for states to mandate it," said Fisher. "Nobody at Merck, the CDC or FDA know if the injection of Gardasil into all pre-teen girls - especially simultaneously with hepatitis B vaccine - will make some of them more likely to develop arthritis or other inflammatory autoimmune and brain disorders as teenagers and adults. With cervical cancer causing about one percent of all cancer deaths in American women due to routine pap screening, it was inappropriate for the FDA to fast track Gardasil. It is way too early to direct all young girls to get three doses of a vaccine that has not been proven safe or effective in their age group."

The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), founded in 1982 by parents of vaccine injured children, has been a leading critic of one-size-fits-all mass vaccination policies and the lack of basic science research into biological mechanisms and high risk factors for vaccine-induced brain and immune system dysfunction. As a member of the FDA Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC), Barbara Loe Fisher urged trials include adequate safety data on pre-adolescent children and warned against fast tracking Gardasil at the November 28-29, 2001 VRBPAC meeting .[ ]

Full 2001 FDA Transcript: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/cber... & Related Biological

For more information go to www.NVIC.org.

Tara - posted on 05/20/2009

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Quoting Tracy:

I have a question for those parents who choose not to immunize their children. From most of the posts, it seems you are worried about toxins. Most claim their children have never been on antibiotics either. So, my question is this: If you child came down with a serious infection(kidney for example) would you use antibiotics or not? If your child was diagnosed with leukemia, would you choose chemotherapy or not. I'm not being sarcastic, I am interested in hearing honest replies, because, as I said, most of you are concerned about "toxins" in your childs life. So if they needed it medically would you consider "toxins" then. It seems you choose not to immunize as you don't believe they "need" it.Just curious really, I don't know anyone who hasn't had their child immunized so I can't have a conversation with them about it.


I'd be happy to give you my response on a different thrad on alternative medicine or something. This thread is about vaccines, so I'd feel bad if we hijacked it.

Tracy - posted on 05/20/2009

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I have a question for those parents who choose not to immunize their children. From most of the posts, it seems you are worried about toxins. Most claim their children have never been on antibiotics either. So, my question is this: If you child came down with a serious infection(kidney for example) would you use antibiotics or not? If your child was diagnosed with leukemia, would you choose chemotherapy or not. I'm not being sarcastic, I am interested in hearing honest replies, because, as I said, most of you are concerned about "toxins" in your childs life. So if they needed it medically would you consider "toxins" then. It seems you choose not to immunize as you don't believe they "need" it.Just curious really, I don't know anyone who hasn't had their child immunized so I can't have a conversation with them about it.

Sarah - posted on 05/20/2009

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Quoting Deepali:

Sarah, I copied the entire link and pasted it....that worked. This is what I found on page 12 of a link I found within your link
http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/intern...$File/hpv-review.pdf

(v) Males [For males aged 9–15 years (Safety 4 vHPV vaccine- Grade B; 2vHPV vaccine-no data)(Efficacy-no data)(Immunogenicity 4vHPV vaccine-Grade B; 2vHPV vaccine-no data)]67
4vHPV vaccine is licensed for use in males aged 9–15 years. 4vHPV vaccine produces high antibody titres in pre-adolescent and adolescent males but it is not known whether vaccination of males can either prevent transmission of HPV or provide protection against genital HPV infection, genital warts, anogenital dysplasia or anogenital cancers. 2vHPV vaccine is not registered for use in males.
There is no recommendation for vaccination of males at this time due to the lack of clinical efficacy data.



So it's been tested on males. And it has nothing to do with cashflow, like I said, they now give the Rubella vaccine to boys in high school as well. Money has nothing to do with it. It is about protecting the wider community. The TGA approved the use of the Rubella booster. They are a Government agency. And the Government pays for us to be vaccinated, which means it is costing them money, we don't pay a single red cent for vaccines included in the National Immunisation Programme. For me to have the Gardasil shots, the Government is paying the $450 fee that has been waived as part of the catch up programme until June 30. They also paid for me to have the Boostrix shot as I am a new parent, so that's something like another $50 or so. Because it was done by the clinic nurse & not my GP I was not charged a consult fee, Medicare picked up the tab for that too.



If the TGA does ever decide to add Gardisal to the NIP for males, I feel secure in the knowledge that it is for the sake of the community & my son will be on that doorstep right next to his sister. They won't be doing that without the proof that it will work. Otherwise it would be on the schedual now.



This is how I feel. I have a vested interest in the efficiancy of this vaccine.

Toni - posted on 05/20/2009

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I think what needs to be weighed up is the 'potential danger' between the vaccine and the diseases. At the moment as the diseases are held at bay by the successful herd immunisations, the vaccine looks to be the bigger danger. But if herd immunisation starts to fail then the diseases are by far the bigger killer. People need to look to the future of society and not just to their own backyard, and today. These diseases can of course make a come back to a pandemic level and no amount of apple cider vinegar on the feet is going to save the kiddies from fevers, encephalitis, brain damage etc. Healthy diet, vitamin supplements, alternative medicines will only go so far. I'm all for keeping an open mind, but I think people are deluding themselves if they think that's all they need in order to beat some of these horrific diseases.
We have a healthier diet now, (Mcdonalds etc not withstanding) than ever before, but measles can still kill a child. Someone needs to consider the babies who are too young to be vaccinated against measles etc. Shedding the vaccine, even going by the links supplied by those who choose not to immunise, is extremely rare. The worry comes from diseases mutating and also by herd immunisation falling.

Deepali - posted on 05/20/2009

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Sarah, I copied the entire link and pasted it....that worked. This is what I found on page 12 of a link I found within your link

http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/intern...$File/hpv-review.pdf



(v) Males [For males aged 9–15 years (Safety 4 vHPV vaccine- Grade B; 2vHPV vaccine-no data)(Efficacy-no data)(Immunogenicity 4vHPV vaccine-Grade B; 2vHPV vaccine-no data)]67

4vHPV vaccine is licensed for use in males aged 9–15 years. 4vHPV vaccine produces high antibody titres in pre-adolescent and adolescent males but it is not known whether vaccination of males can either prevent transmission of HPV or provide protection against genital HPV infection, genital warts, anogenital dysplasia or anogenital cancers. 2vHPV vaccine is not registered for use in males.

There is no recommendation for vaccination of males at this time due to the lack of clinical efficacy data.

Tlehti - posted on 05/19/2009

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I have just joined this circle of mom's thing and after reading this thread I am appalled by the amount of disrespect that you ladies have for each other. It is a choice that is made by a parent and sometimes people will agree and disagree with your decisions but ultimately it is your choice. I am sickened by some of the comments on here and will be taking "circle of mom's" off my face book

Sarah - posted on 05/19/2009

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Quoting Deepali:

Oh here we go again! Gardasil has never been tested on boys or men. This is from the CDC website
http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/STDFact-HPV-v...
"What about vaccinating boys and men?
We do not yet know if the vaccine is effective in boys or men. It is possible that vaccinating males will have health benefits for them by preventing genital warts and rare cancers, such as penile and anal cancer. It is also possible that vaccinating boys/men will have indirect health benefits for girls/women. Studies are now being done to find out if the vaccine works to prevent HPV infection and disease in males. When more information is available, this vaccine may be licensed and recommended for boys/men as well."




It has in fact been tested on boys, which is why I said it had.



http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/intern...$File/parents_brochure.pdf



What they are yet to determine is if it has any impact on preventing infection of HPV in girls who have no immunity. Just like, in Australia, up untill 1995, it was only girls who received the Rubella booster in high school, to reduce the risk of being exposed to it when pregnant. They were able to determine that if boys were also given the booster, they could help reduce this risk as well, so my garde was the first to have both girls & boys given this booster shot. This was decided after what I imagine would be many years of research, given that women of my mother's generation were also given the high school jab.

Sarah - posted on 05/19/2009

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Quoting Corrine:



Quoting Sarah:









The only thing that is possible to spread, is smallpox vaccine (usually NOT given to children) Which is why when it is given, it is constantly covered and if you are not vaccinated as well, you should not come into contact with the injection site beause it is possible for the live virus to infect you.













Just a side note to that, as I aggree with everything else you say, The Smallpox vaccine actually contains Cowpox, so it's not even actually possible to get smallpox from the smallpox vaccine, but yes, you can still get cowpox from touching the site.










My point here was when we had a group of service members going overseas, we had to give them all their smallpox. One of the males that recieved the shot, had his girlfriend change his dressing. a few days later, she started to develop a rash and bumps all over her body. long story short we had to send her to the hospital to get tested for smallpox





Oh, I wasn't trying to contradict you & I appologise if that seemed to be the case. It was more a comment directed at the few that like to take small bits of info & throw it in your face & make out like you have no idea what you're talking about!

[deleted account]

Quoting Sarah:







The only thing that is possible to spread, is smallpox vaccine (usually NOT given to children) Which is why when it is given, it is constantly covered and if you are not vaccinated as well, you should not come into contact with the injection site beause it is possible for the live virus to infect you.










Just a side note to that, as I aggree with everything else you say, The Smallpox vaccine actually contains Cowpox, so it's not even actually possible to get smallpox from the smallpox vaccine, but yes, you can still get cowpox from touching the site.






My point here was when we had a group of service members going overseas, we had to give them all their smallpox. One of the males that recieved the shot, had his girlfriend change his dressing. a few days later, she started to develop a rash and bumps all over her body. long story short we had to send her to the hospital to get tested for smallpox

Deepali - posted on 05/19/2009

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Oh here we go again! Gardasil has never been tested on boys or men. This is from the CDC website

http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/STDFact-HPV-v...

"What about vaccinating boys and men?

We do not yet know if the vaccine is effective in boys or men. It is possible that vaccinating males will have health benefits for them by preventing genital warts and rare cancers, such as penile and anal cancer. It is also possible that vaccinating boys/men will have indirect health benefits for girls/women. Studies are now being done to find out if the vaccine works to prevent HPV infection and disease in males. When more information is available, this vaccine may be licensed and recommended for boys/men as well."



While 20,000 young women used in the clinical trial seems like a huge number, less than 1,200 of these were under 16 years of age and few of them were around 10-12 years which also happens to be the age suggested as the optimum target group.



The follow-up of the clinical trial participants was for 4 years and only 18 months for many of the subjects. That the means the very target group which is being singled out for mandatory vaccination is actually the group that was conspicuously under-represented in the clinical trials and followed up for the shortest time!



http://cherryhill.injuryboard.com/fda-an...

[deleted account]

Quoting Amie:



Quoting Nichola:





Gardasil does not protect against sexually tansmitted diseases...it protects against cervical cancer









The Gardasil vaccine is meant to protect against HPV that can turn into cervical cancer. HPV is classified as a STD.






Actually, HPV is an STI (sexually transmitted infection) not an STD. They are 2 completely different things



http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/STDFact-HPV.h...

Ashley - posted on 05/19/2009

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Quoting Tara:

Do you not realize that vaccinations can ALSO KILL??? Time and TIME again children have died within HOURS or DAYS after receiving their vaccinations. I thought these vaccines were supposed to protect them? Well for many, they DON'T! Just look at the THIRTY TWO DEATHS from the Gardasil vaccine! This Gardasil vaccine is supposed to protect teenagers from a SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASE....but 32 have DIED from it! How sad, how unnecessary, and how tragic. Maybe if the FDA wouldn't have fast tracked this vaccine for the market and done more studies instead of just testing it on 1100 girls...this type of thing wouldn't have happened and those 32 families would still be complete??

And as far as my "responsibility" goes....my duty is to my family and my children. THEY are the ones I am responsible for. As their mother, my duty is to protect them from toxins and poisons, keep their bodies full of nutritious food, and healthy vitamins, and keep their immune system strong. I find that those parents that do not vaccinate their children are often extremely educated in the research when it comes to vaccines. There was even a survey that came out that said that those who do not vaccinate are more educated than those that do. It's just something to think about. I believe if you are making a choice to not vaccinate, you more than likely have done your research and you know WHY you are not vaccinating. The same should go for those that choose TO vaccinate. You should know why, and you should keep up with he research and understand what you are doing to your child's immune system.

My 2 year old daughter has had 3 illnesses in her LIFE. She has NEVER had an ear infection, she has NEVER been on antibiotics, and she has never been vaccinated. She has ALSO NEVER had McDonalds or Burger King or that kind of crappy food. I do my duty to keep my daughter's immune system strong and healthy. And because we eat organic, don't vaccinate, and get plenty of sunshine and rest, her body is one of the strongest I've ever seen. Two little colds and a stomach bug in her whole 2 years of life? What vaccinated child can say that? And you're telling me unvaccinated children are sicker than vaccinated children? I think you are sadly mistaken.


There is a great deal of truth in your post.  However, it should be noted that an estimated 4,000 women will die this year from cervical cancer, and the majority of those would have been prevented by the Gardisil vaccine.  I don't know enough about this vaccine to really have an opinion on it, yet....but I did think it was important to point that out.  :)

Tara - posted on 05/19/2009

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Quoting Rachel:



Quoting Corrine:




Quoting Tara:





Quoting Corrine:






Quoting Sarah:







Quoting Corrine:

He also eats non-organic foods, he has eaten McDonalds, Sonic, Hooters and at a few other fast food places. He eats his fruits and veggies. He eats hotdogs, canned beans, microwaved foods. He drinks milk (i know some think its bad for you) He eats sweet once in awhile (but fortunatly, he doesnt like them too much) He eats food out of the deep fryer. He is a smart, happy and HEALTHY kid. So i dont understand how you think that just because the food is organic, it is going to keep your child from catchin illnesses. Also, if you are so sure that organic foods, herbs and "sunshine" is going to keep you and your family healthy, why do YOU feel the need to shove vitamins down their throat. if you are so healthy, why do you need those extra supplements??














to Corrine -














You need to be looking at long term effects.  Just because your son is healthy now does not guaranty his future health. In fact, it will probably catch up to him.  Maybe he will not be as affected as some would be, but wouldn't you like your child to have HIS optimal health level (whatever that is). You might  see a problem when he starts school and has to sit still.  Or you might not. You are right - you are the mom and you can decide.  I don't think anyone here shoves vitamins down their little kids throats :)  Isn't there something that says "what you do today you will see the result of in 20 years?".   It isn't all about not catching illnesses - it is about promoting vitality and strength in their whole systems (brains are developing right now for example).  Wanting your child to have the best health they can.  I think we do need to supplement our diets - unless we are growing the foods ourselves with super nutrient dense soils full of composting etc.   Why are you so upset if people DO "shove vitamins downt their throat"?  At least vitamins don't pollute the water supplies like all the Rx's do.














 



















My whole point was, that just because he eats "crap" food, doesnt mean he isn't a healthy kid. He eats at fast food places when we are out and he gets hungry. I dont carry around complete meals in my car  with me everywhere I go, so he gets what is convenient at the time. I ate the same food as him when I was younger, and I have no issues what-so-ever. I am not over weight, I am not sick all the time.  I dont see your point about him having to sit still in school...? Just because he eats unhealthy food every so often doesnt mean he will develope some kind of ADD/ADHD. Ive worked in the medical field for the last 5 years, Ive counseled people on healthy eating habits, importance of immunizations and such. The sort of "crap" food he eats is ok...IN MODERATION. He does not get it everyday. My comment about vitamins was that if people think that organic foods, herbs, sunshine, "natural food" and such will make your child healthy, why feel the need to use suppliments? They are not natural. I look at them the same I do with immunizations. (not pointing fingers but the correct spelling is with a Z not an S) I dont care whether or not you decide to give your kids vitamins or whatever. But, Ive already stated my point on that issue.












As to giving children things like tylenol, motrin or ibuprofen...Do you take any pain releivers for headaches, body aches or such? or do you use herbs and spices to cure your pains? wouldnt you think that when your child is teething or has a fever or God forbid something worse, it is your duty as a parent to relieve as much pain as possible for their comfort? or do you just sit there and let them cry in pain? Not trying to start another arguement, just curious. What happens if they have a broken bone, protruding out of their skin? give them some ginger tea , (obviously Im being sarcastic) and hope it takes away the pain? What if they need surgery? Tell the doctor not to put them under and use your hopes and wishes that they are not in pain? I know this is taking it to the extreme but to me, this is what you are leading me to believe would be true for you...Just out of curiosity, all you moms who are all for organic, anti vaccinatating, and oppose any sort of medicine....how many of you had an epidural during childbirth? HONOSTLY












I vaccinate my son, because I am doing what I believe is best for him. and all of the non-vaccinating moms can argue the same. So I think that we all need to agree to disagree because no one is going to change their mind on their belief. This is a pointless arguement that will just go on and on.....and on. I just pray for all of you anti immunization moms that your kids dont catch something serious, that couldve been prevented by a simple little jab in the leg.















 










I truly wish you wouldn't pretend to know what you are talking about, because to me, it is quite clear you don't.










1.  We take supplements because you can not get all of your nutrition from today's foods full of pesticides and chemicals.....and supplments only help to increase the immune system strength.  They do nothing to damage the body...they make the body stronger.  Your belief that supplements are "just like vaccinations" is laughable.










2.  No we do not take any pain relievers for headaches or fevers whatsoever.  My 2 year old has never had any medication of any kind, and I hope to keep it that way.  Fevers are the body's way of fighting off the illness, and I believe that surpressing a fever is very dangerous and unhealthy.  If you would like some links or articles, I would be happy to provide some for you. 

When my daughter has a fever, I simply breastfeed her more often, make sure she has lots of fluids (like water and coconut water/milk), and hold and rock her while she sleeps (or she sleeps with us so she is right next to me and I know exactly what is going on at all times) so that her immune system can do its job by killing off whatever virus or bacteria it needs to kill off.  That is the whole point of the body getting a fever in the first place.  We also would go to the chiropractor and get adjusted every single day until the fever or illness was gone, as that also helps increase the strength of the immune system.  If she ever started to get a fever above 105, I would give her a warm bath, and put some apple cider vinegar on her feet and forehead to help take the fever down a little bit, but I would still let it run its course.  Just because we don't use western medicine for our famile does not mean we are not helping our children and letting them cry out in pain.  Are you serious? If I go thru "so much work" making sure my children are fed the best nutrition possible, take the best supplements, and see the chiropractor regularly, of course when my child is in pain I'm going to help them.  What kind of statement is that? I mean really.  And just because a child has a fever, does not mean they are in pain.  I know children who have had fevers of 104 or 105 that "acted" totally fine. Their body was just fighting off something, but they were in no pain whatsoever.  Fever does not always equal pain.  You have to watch how your child is...it's not all about the fever number.  Some children will act VERY VERY sick at 102, so it's more about your child's behavior than anything. There are alternatives to motrin and tylenol, and it's called homeopathics.  No side effects whatsoever if you use those, and they actually HELP the body instead of harm it.










3.  If my daughter had a broken bone, of COURSE we'd take her to the doctor to get it put in a cast.  THAT is what western medicin by allopaths is supposed to be FOR....EMERGENCIES.  If my daughter fell and cracked her head open, of COURSE we'd go to the ER.  We're not stupid.  You insinuate that prents who don't vaccinate are medically neglectful  as if we would NEVER use a doctor, and that is simply untrue and rude.  We believe that doctors are here for us to use when there is an emergency. That is it.  We don't go to a doctor to "keep ourselves healthy".  We can do that on our own.










4.  I did not have an epidural in childbirth.  I did not have any pain medication. I had a natrual vaginal childbirth with a midwife in a hospital birth center.  Our future children will be born at home.










Any more questions?












Like I said in my previous post, I was taking it to extreme and being sarcastic. But thanks for your novel....it was quite amusing









OK we all know that a fever is the body's way of fighting of a virus or a bacterial infection, but did you know that an extremely high fever can cause febril convulsions and if it gets to that point it can cause serious brain damage in children?????????






I know this as my daughter convulsed when she was 9 months old, the doctor could'nt find anything wrong with her ear, nose and everything else came back normal so he thought it was just teeting temps. When her temp did'nt come down with tempered baths and panadol we took her to the hospital and lucky we did because she started convulsing. Have you ever seen a child convulse??? It is not a very nice thing to witness let me tell you especially when its your own child. If i had not got her to the hospital when i did she could have 1, had brain damage or 2 died. So when it comes to the life of my children i will give them whatever i can to help their little bodies fight it. Panadol and such, only treat the symptoms and help soothe the child which helps the body fight whatever it needs to until the child can been seen by a doctor who can do further tests to see what the problem actually is.






IF THE SYMPTOMS PERSIST CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR!!!!!!!! I was just wondering if you follow this information??? I'm not trying to be rude but don't all medicines(western & natural) have a warning label that says IF THE SYMPTOMS PERSIST CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR (or words to that affect) And what do you think they use in hospitals to bring childrens high fevers down????? And would you allow them to use panadol(or whatever it's called were you are.lol) to help your child?????????





This is not the place for this discussion. If you want to make an alternative healthcare discussion I'd be happy to discuss there.




I only responded to the other girl because I thought maybe she was genuinely interested in what an "anti vaxers" answer was.

Rachel - posted on 05/19/2009

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Quoting Corrine:



Quoting Tara:




Quoting Corrine:





Quoting Sarah:






Quoting Corrine:

He also eats non-organic foods, he has eaten McDonalds, Sonic, Hooters and at a few other fast food places. He eats his fruits and veggies. He eats hotdogs, canned beans, microwaved foods. He drinks milk (i know some think its bad for you) He eats sweet once in awhile (but fortunatly, he doesnt like them too much) He eats food out of the deep fryer. He is a smart, happy and HEALTHY kid. So i dont understand how you think that just because the food is organic, it is going to keep your child from catchin illnesses. Also, if you are so sure that organic foods, herbs and "sunshine" is going to keep you and your family healthy, why do YOU feel the need to shove vitamins down their throat. if you are so healthy, why do you need those extra supplements??












to Corrine -












You need to be looking at long term effects.  Just because your son is healthy now does not guaranty his future health. In fact, it will probably catch up to him.  Maybe he will not be as affected as some would be, but wouldn't you like your child to have HIS optimal health level (whatever that is). You might  see a problem when he starts school and has to sit still.  Or you might not. You are right - you are the mom and you can decide.  I don't think anyone here shoves vitamins down their little kids throats :)  Isn't there something that says "what you do today you will see the result of in 20 years?".   It isn't all about not catching illnesses - it is about promoting vitality and strength in their whole systems (brains are developing right now for example).  Wanting your child to have the best health they can.  I think we do need to supplement our diets - unless we are growing the foods ourselves with super nutrient dense soils full of composting etc.   Why are you so upset if people DO "shove vitamins downt their throat"?  At least vitamins don't pollute the water supplies like all the Rx's do.












 
















My whole point was, that just because he eats "crap" food, doesnt mean he isn't a healthy kid. He eats at fast food places when we are out and he gets hungry. I dont carry around complete meals in my car  with me everywhere I go, so he gets what is convenient at the time. I ate the same food as him when I was younger, and I have no issues what-so-ever. I am not over weight, I am not sick all the time.  I dont see your point about him having to sit still in school...? Just because he eats unhealthy food every so often doesnt mean he will develope some kind of ADD/ADHD. Ive worked in the medical field for the last 5 years, Ive counseled people on healthy eating habits, importance of immunizations and such. The sort of "crap" food he eats is ok...IN MODERATION. He does not get it everyday. My comment about vitamins was that if people think that organic foods, herbs, sunshine, "natural food" and such will make your child healthy, why feel the need to use suppliments? They are not natural. I look at them the same I do with immunizations. (not pointing fingers but the correct spelling is with a Z not an S) I dont care whether or not you decide to give your kids vitamins or whatever. But, Ive already stated my point on that issue.










As to giving children things like tylenol, motrin or ibuprofen...Do you take any pain releivers for headaches, body aches or such? or do you use herbs and spices to cure your pains? wouldnt you think that when your child is teething or has a fever or God forbid something worse, it is your duty as a parent to relieve as much pain as possible for their comfort? or do you just sit there and let them cry in pain? Not trying to start another arguement, just curious. What happens if they have a broken bone, protruding out of their skin? give them some ginger tea , (obviously Im being sarcastic) and hope it takes away the pain? What if they need surgery? Tell the doctor not to put them under and use your hopes and wishes that they are not in pain? I know this is taking it to the extreme but to me, this is what you are leading me to believe would be true for you...Just out of curiosity, all you moms who are all for organic, anti vaccinatating, and oppose any sort of medicine....how many of you had an epidural during childbirth? HONOSTLY










I vaccinate my son, because I am doing what I believe is best for him. and all of the non-vaccinating moms can argue the same. So I think that we all need to agree to disagree because no one is going to change their mind on their belief. This is a pointless arguement that will just go on and on.....and on. I just pray for all of you anti immunization moms that your kids dont catch something serious, that couldve been prevented by a simple little jab in the leg.












 








I truly wish you wouldn't pretend to know what you are talking about, because to me, it is quite clear you don't.








1.  We take supplements because you can not get all of your nutrition from today's foods full of pesticides and chemicals.....and supplments only help to increase the immune system strength.  They do nothing to damage the body...they make the body stronger.  Your belief that supplements are "just like vaccinations" is laughable.








2.  No we do not take any pain relievers for headaches or fevers whatsoever.  My 2 year old has never had any medication of any kind, and I hope to keep it that way.  Fevers are the body's way of fighting off the illness, and I believe that surpressing a fever is very dangerous and unhealthy.  If you would like some links or articles, I would be happy to provide some for you. 

When my daughter has a fever, I simply breastfeed her more often, make sure she has lots of fluids (like water and coconut water/milk), and hold and rock her while she sleeps (or she sleeps with us so she is right next to me and I know exactly what is going on at all times) so that her immune system can do its job by killing off whatever virus or bacteria it needs to kill off.  That is the whole point of the body getting a fever in the first place.  We also would go to the chiropractor and get adjusted every single day until the fever or illness was gone, as that also helps increase the strength of the immune system.  If she ever started to get a fever above 105, I would give her a warm bath, and put some apple cider vinegar on her feet and forehead to help take the fever down a little bit, but I would still let it run its course.  Just because we don't use western medicine for our famile does not mean we are not helping our children and letting them cry out in pain.  Are you serious? If I go thru "so much work" making sure my children are fed the best nutrition possible, take the best supplements, and see the chiropractor regularly, of course when my child is in pain I'm going to help them.  What kind of statement is that? I mean really.  And just because a child has a fever, does not mean they are in pain.  I know children who have had fevers of 104 or 105 that "acted" totally fine. Their body was just fighting off something, but they were in no pain whatsoever.  Fever does not always equal pain.  You have to watch how your child is...it's not all about the fever number.  Some children will act VERY VERY sick at 102, so it's more about your child's behavior than anything. There are alternatives to motrin and tylenol, and it's called homeopathics.  No side effects whatsoever if you use those, and they actually HELP the body instead of harm it.








3.  If my daughter had a broken bone, of COURSE we'd take her to the doctor to get it put in a cast.  THAT is what western medicin by allopaths is supposed to be FOR....EMERGENCIES.  If my daughter fell and cracked her head open, of COURSE we'd go to the ER.  We're not stupid.  You insinuate that prents who don't vaccinate are medically neglectful  as if we would NEVER use a doctor, and that is simply untrue and rude.  We believe that doctors are here for us to use when there is an emergency. That is it.  We don't go to a doctor to "keep ourselves healthy".  We can do that on our own.








4.  I did not have an epidural in childbirth.  I did not have any pain medication. I had a natrual vaginal childbirth with a midwife in a hospital birth center.  Our future children will be born at home.








Any more questions?









Like I said in my previous post, I was taking it to extreme and being sarcastic. But thanks for your novel....it was quite amusing





OK we all know that a fever is the body's way of fighting of a virus or a bacterial infection, but did you know that an extremely high fever can cause febril convulsions and if it gets to that point it can cause serious brain damage in children?????????



I know this as my daughter convulsed when she was 9 months old, the doctor could'nt find anything wrong with her ear, nose and everything else came back normal so he thought it was just teeting temps. When her temp did'nt come down with tempered baths and panadol we took her to the hospital and lucky we did because she started convulsing. Have you ever seen a child convulse??? It is not a very nice thing to witness let me tell you especially when its your own child. If i had not got her to the hospital when i did she could have 1, had brain damage or 2 died. So when it comes to the life of my children i will give them whatever i can to help their little bodies fight it. Panadol and such, only treat the symptoms and help soothe the child which helps the body fight whatever it needs to until the child can been seen by a doctor who can do further tests to see what the problem actually is.



IF THE SYMPTOMS PERSIST CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR!!!!!!!! I was just wondering if you follow this information??? I'm not trying to be rude but don't all medicines(western & natural) have a warning label that says IF THE SYMPTOMS PERSIST CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR (or words to that affect) And what do you think they use in hospitals to bring childrens high fevers down????? And would you allow them to use panadol(or whatever it's called were you are.lol) to help your child?????????

Sarah - posted on 05/19/2009

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Quoting Tara:




I'll take ONE vaccine...the Gardasil vaccine that was fast tracked for the market all in the name of MONEY.  They tested it on 1100 GIRLS....1100!!!!!!!!!! And they claimed that it was safe!?  Now 32 girls have DIED from this vaccine and they STILL won't remove it (I believe they will remove it soon, however).  The girls being vaccinated by this vaccine are the guinnea pigs, because testing it on 1100 and saying it's safe is NOT showing that it has been "throughly tested".  If that's your idea of safety standards, then I think you need to rethink them.






 






Garasil was actually tested on more than 21000 people ranging in ages from about 9 to 26 years & on teenage boys. I don't know where people keep getting this myth from that there was only 1100 subjects tested. Australians aren't that stupid!

[deleted account]

Quoting Tara:



Quoting Corrine:




Quoting Sarah:





Quoting Corrine:

He also eats non-organic foods, he has eaten McDonalds, Sonic, Hooters and at a few other fast food places. He eats his fruits and veggies. He eats hotdogs, canned beans, microwaved foods. He drinks milk (i know some think its bad for you) He eats sweet once in awhile (but fortunatly, he doesnt like them too much) He eats food out of the deep fryer. He is a smart, happy and HEALTHY kid. So i dont understand how you think that just because the food is organic, it is going to keep your child from catchin illnesses. Also, if you are so sure that organic foods, herbs and "sunshine" is going to keep you and your family healthy, why do YOU feel the need to shove vitamins down their throat. if you are so healthy, why do you need those extra supplements??










to Corrine -










You need to be looking at long term effects.  Just because your son is healthy now does not guaranty his future health. In fact, it will probably catch up to him.  Maybe he will not be as affected as some would be, but wouldn't you like your child to have HIS optimal health level (whatever that is). You might  see a problem when he starts school and has to sit still.  Or you might not. You are right - you are the mom and you can decide.  I don't think anyone here shoves vitamins down their little kids throats :)  Isn't there something that says "what you do today you will see the result of in 20 years?".   It isn't all about not catching illnesses - it is about promoting vitality and strength in their whole systems (brains are developing right now for example).  Wanting your child to have the best health they can.  I think we do need to supplement our diets - unless we are growing the foods ourselves with super nutrient dense soils full of composting etc.   Why are you so upset if people DO "shove vitamins downt their throat"?  At least vitamins don't pollute the water supplies like all the Rx's do.










 













My whole point was, that just because he eats "crap" food, doesnt mean he isn't a healthy kid. He eats at fast food places when we are out and he gets hungry. I dont carry around complete meals in my car  with me everywhere I go, so he gets what is convenient at the time. I ate the same food as him when I was younger, and I have no issues what-so-ever. I am not over weight, I am not sick all the time.  I dont see your point about him having to sit still in school...? Just because he eats unhealthy food every so often doesnt mean he will develope some kind of ADD/ADHD. Ive worked in the medical field for the last 5 years, Ive counseled people on healthy eating habits, importance of immunizations and such. The sort of "crap" food he eats is ok...IN MODERATION. He does not get it everyday. My comment about vitamins was that if people think that organic foods, herbs, sunshine, "natural food" and such will make your child healthy, why feel the need to use suppliments? They are not natural. I look at them the same I do with immunizations. (not pointing fingers but the correct spelling is with a Z not an S) I dont care whether or not you decide to give your kids vitamins or whatever. But, Ive already stated my point on that issue.








As to giving children things like tylenol, motrin or ibuprofen...Do you take any pain releivers for headaches, body aches or such? or do you use herbs and spices to cure your pains? wouldnt you think that when your child is teething or has a fever or God forbid something worse, it is your duty as a parent to relieve as much pain as possible for their comfort? or do you just sit there and let them cry in pain? Not trying to start another arguement, just curious. What happens if they have a broken bone, protruding out of their skin? give them some ginger tea , (obviously Im being sarcastic) and hope it takes away the pain? What if they need surgery? Tell the doctor not to put them under and use your hopes and wishes that they are not in pain? I know this is taking it to the extreme but to me, this is what you are leading me to believe would be true for you...Just out of curiosity, all you moms who are all for organic, anti vaccinatating, and oppose any sort of medicine....how many of you had an epidural during childbirth? HONOSTLY








I vaccinate my son, because I am doing what I believe is best for him. and all of the non-vaccinating moms can argue the same. So I think that we all need to agree to disagree because no one is going to change their mind on their belief. This is a pointless arguement that will just go on and on.....and on. I just pray for all of you anti immunization moms that your kids dont catch something serious, that couldve been prevented by a simple little jab in the leg.









 






I truly wish you wouldn't pretend to know what you are talking about, because to me, it is quite clear you don't.






1.  We take supplements because you can not get all of your nutrition from today's foods full of pesticides and chemicals.....and supplments only help to increase the immune system strength.  They do nothing to damage the body...they make the body stronger.  Your belief that supplements are "just like vaccinations" is laughable.






2.  No we do not take any pain relievers for headaches or fevers whatsoever.  My 2 year old has never had any medication of any kind, and I hope to keep it that way.  Fevers are the body's way of fighting off the illness, and I believe that surpressing a fever is very dangerous and unhealthy.  If you would like some links or articles, I would be happy to provide some for you. 

When my daughter has a fever, I simply breastfeed her more often, make sure she has lots of fluids (like water and coconut water/milk), and hold and rock her while she sleeps (or she sleeps with us so she is right next to me and I know exactly what is going on at all times) so that her immune system can do its job by killing off whatever virus or bacteria it needs to kill off.  That is the whole point of the body getting a fever in the first place.  We also would go to the chiropractor and get adjusted every single day until the fever or illness was gone, as that also helps increase the strength of the immune system.  If she ever started to get a fever above 105, I would give her a warm bath, and put some apple cider vinegar on her feet and forehead to help take the fever down a little bit, but I would still let it run its course.  Just because we don't use western medicine for our famile does not mean we are not helping our children and letting them cry out in pain.  Are you serious? If I go thru "so much work" making sure my children are fed the best nutrition possible, take the best supplements, and see the chiropractor regularly, of course when my child is in pain I'm going to help them.  What kind of statement is that? I mean really.  And just because a child has a fever, does not mean they are in pain.  I know children who have had fevers of 104 or 105 that "acted" totally fine. Their body was just fighting off something, but they were in no pain whatsoever.  Fever does not always equal pain.  You have to watch how your child is...it's not all about the fever number.  Some children will act VERY VERY sick at 102, so it's more about your child's behavior than anything. There are alternatives to motrin and tylenol, and it's called homeopathics.  No side effects whatsoever if you use those, and they actually HELP the body instead of harm it.






3.  If my daughter had a broken bone, of COURSE we'd take her to the doctor to get it put in a cast.  THAT is what western medicin by allopaths is supposed to be FOR....EMERGENCIES.  If my daughter fell and cracked her head open, of COURSE we'd go to the ER.  We're not stupid.  You insinuate that prents who don't vaccinate are medically neglectful  as if we would NEVER use a doctor, and that is simply untrue and rude.  We believe that doctors are here for us to use when there is an emergency. That is it.  We don't go to a doctor to "keep ourselves healthy".  We can do that on our own.






4.  I did not have an epidural in childbirth.  I did not have any pain medication. I had a natrual vaginal childbirth with a midwife in a hospital birth center.  Our future children will be born at home.






Any more questions?





Like I said in my previous post, I was taking it to extreme and being sarcastic. But thanks for your novel....it was quite amusing

[deleted account]

I chose not to immunize my son with the MMR vac. and I'm insulted that you think that my child is a breeding ground for illness. I've read many articles and talked to many people (most med professionals) who agree with the link btwn. MMR vac. and autism despite recent tests. My job as a mom is to protect my son when possible and this was a personal choice that I made as a parent.

Tara - posted on 05/19/2009

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Quoting Corrine:



Quoting Heather:

If your child is immunized, then they are supposedly protected from whatever disease it is that they were immunized against. That is the point of immunizations is to protect the children that are immunized. If you want the truth, the un-vaccinated child is in more danger from your vaccinated child because your vaccinated child has now been exposed to the disease via the immunization.






There is no possible way that a child who has been immunized can pass on to another non immunized child whatever shot he or she has recieved! Where do you get your information from?  Your children come in contact with billions and billions of germs everyday, far more then a simple jab contains. The only thing that is possible to spread, is smallpox vaccine (usually NOT given to children) Which is why when it is given, it is constantly covered and if you are not vaccinated as well, you should not come into contact with the injection site beause it is possible for the live virus to infect you. Some vaccines contain live viruses, but in a very weak form that does not cause the disease. Vaccines "teach" the immune system how to recognize and fight bacteria and viruses before an infection happens. By giving the body a small "sample" of the germ, it can develope resistance without actually getting the disease. Certain vaccine preventable diseases can infect babies within their first few months of life. Vaccinating small children helps provide them with protection when they need it. Thanks to the vaccines that we have today, many of the diseases that once killed millions of people (including babies) in the U.S, have not been seen for many, many years! But in other parts of the world, where the vaccines arent available, the diseases that we dont worry about in the U.S, are continueing to destroy the lives of children every single day!



Are the vaccines safe?...no medication is 100% safe. HOWEVER, ALL vaccines that are approved for use in the U.S have been thoroughly tested for safety, and serious side effects are very rare. Before vaccines were developed, polio paralyzed 10,000 children, rubella (German measles) caused birth defects in 20,000 newborns, and pertussis (whooping cough) killed 8,000 children YEARLY!!!  These are the facts. I applaude all of you moms who do not believe in vaccines, especially since I would not have the balls to gamble with my childs life like that.






 





Are you serious?  This whole post is full of complete and utter misinformation!



Where do YOU get YOUR information from!?  Live virus vaccines CAN and DO shed their virus to others when you get a vaccine.  Some for up to 6 WEEKS!!  Many MANY times it has been documented that a vaccinated child spread the illness they were just vaccinated for to others.  It's documented fact.  Where are the links to back up your statement?



This entire page is full of information about vaccines shedding:  http://www.vaccinetruth.org/shedding_vir... and it was simply one of the first pages to come up when I searched for vaccines and shedding.  Not that hard to find the information that clearly states vaccines CAN and DO shed....



Have you read ANY of the previous links on here?  Healthier living conditions, better water, cleaner hygiene practices, etc, is why certain diseases are not around much any where.



And you stated that "ALL vaccines that are approved for use in the U.S have been thoroughly tested for safety, and serious side effects are very rare"   You have GOT to be KIDDING ME!!!



I'll take ONE vaccine...the Gardasil vaccine that was fast tracked for the market all in the name of MONEY.  They tested it on 1100 GIRLS....1100!!!!!!!!!! And they claimed that it was safe!?  Now 32 girls have DIED from this vaccine and they STILL won't remove it (I believe they will remove it soon, however).  The girls being vaccinated by this vaccine are the guinnea pigs, because testing it on 1100 and saying it's safe is NOT showing that it has been "throughly tested".  If that's your idea of safety standards, then I think you need to rethink them.



 



(BTW....in other countries..they use the word immunisations with an S and not a Z...so maybe that's why you're confused).

Tara - posted on 05/19/2009

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Quoting Corrine:



Quoting Sarah:




Quoting Corrine:

He also eats non-organic foods, he has eaten McDonalds, Sonic, Hooters and at a few other fast food places. He eats his fruits and veggies. He eats hotdogs, canned beans, microwaved foods. He drinks milk (i know some think its bad for you) He eats sweet once in awhile (but fortunatly, he doesnt like them too much) He eats food out of the deep fryer. He is a smart, happy and HEALTHY kid. So i dont understand how you think that just because the food is organic, it is going to keep your child from catchin illnesses. Also, if you are so sure that organic foods, herbs and "sunshine" is going to keep you and your family healthy, why do YOU feel the need to shove vitamins down their throat. if you are so healthy, why do you need those extra supplements??








to Corrine -








You need to be looking at long term effects.  Just because your son is healthy now does not guaranty his future health. In fact, it will probably catch up to him.  Maybe he will not be as affected as some would be, but wouldn't you like your child to have HIS optimal health level (whatever that is). You might  see a problem when he starts school and has to sit still.  Or you might not. You are right - you are the mom and you can decide.  I don't think anyone here shoves vitamins down their little kids throats :)  Isn't there something that says "what you do today you will see the result of in 20 years?".   It isn't all about not catching illnesses - it is about promoting vitality and strength in their whole systems (brains are developing right now for example).  Wanting your child to have the best health they can.  I think we do need to supplement our diets - unless we are growing the foods ourselves with super nutrient dense soils full of composting etc.   Why are you so upset if people DO "shove vitamins downt their throat"?  At least vitamins don't pollute the water supplies like all the Rx's do.








 










My whole point was, that just because he eats "crap" food, doesnt mean he isn't a healthy kid. He eats at fast food places when we are out and he gets hungry. I dont carry around complete meals in my car  with me everywhere I go, so he gets what is convenient at the time. I ate the same food as him when I was younger, and I have no issues what-so-ever. I am not over weight, I am not sick all the time.  I dont see your point about him having to sit still in school...? Just because he eats unhealthy food every so often doesnt mean he will develope some kind of ADD/ADHD. Ive worked in the medical field for the last 5 years, Ive counseled people on healthy eating habits, importance of immunizations and such. The sort of "crap" food he eats is ok...IN MODERATION. He does not get it everyday. My comment about vitamins was that if people think that organic foods, herbs, sunshine, "natural food" and such will make your child healthy, why feel the need to use suppliments? They are not natural. I look at them the same I do with immunizations. (not pointing fingers but the correct spelling is with a Z not an S) I dont care whether or not you decide to give your kids vitamins or whatever. But, Ive already stated my point on that issue.






As to giving children things like tylenol, motrin or ibuprofen...Do you take any pain releivers for headaches, body aches or such? or do you use herbs and spices to cure your pains? wouldnt you think that when your child is teething or has a fever or God forbid something worse, it is your duty as a parent to relieve as much pain as possible for their comfort? or do you just sit there and let them cry in pain? Not trying to start another arguement, just curious. What happens if they have a broken bone, protruding out of their skin? give them some ginger tea , (obviously Im being sarcastic) and hope it takes away the pain? What if they need surgery? Tell the doctor not to put them under and use your hopes and wishes that they are not in pain? I know this is taking it to the extreme but to me, this is what you are leading me to believe would be true for you...Just out of curiosity, all you moms who are all for organic, anti vaccinatating, and oppose any sort of medicine....how many of you had an epidural during childbirth? HONOSTLY






I vaccinate my son, because I am doing what I believe is best for him. and all of the non-vaccinating moms can argue the same. So I think that we all need to agree to disagree because no one is going to change their mind on their belief. This is a pointless arguement that will just go on and on.....and on. I just pray for all of you anti immunization moms that your kids dont catch something serious, that couldve been prevented by a simple little jab in the leg.





 



I truly wish you wouldn't pretend to know what you are talking about, because to me, it is quite clear you don't.



1.  We take supplements because you can not get all of your nutrition from today's foods full of pesticides and chemicals.....and supplments only help to increase the immune system strength.  They do nothing to damage the body...they make the body stronger.  Your belief that supplements are "just like vaccinations" is laughable.



2.  No we do not take any pain relievers for headaches or fevers whatsoever.  My 2 year old has never had any medication of any kind, and I hope to keep it that way.  Fevers are the body's way of fighting off the illness, and I believe that surpressing a fever is very dangerous and unhealthy.  If you would like some links or articles, I would be happy to provide some for you. 

When my daughter has a fever, I simply breastfeed her more often, make sure she has lots of fluids (like water and coconut water/milk), and hold and rock her while she sleeps (or she sleeps with us so she is right next to me and I know exactly what is going on at all times) so that her immune system can do its job by killing off whatever virus or bacteria it needs to kill off.  That is the whole point of the body getting a fever in the first place.  We also would go to the chiropractor and get adjusted every single day until the fever or illness was gone, as that also helps increase the strength of the immune system.  If she ever started to get a fever above 105, I would give her a warm bath, and put some apple cider vinegar on her feet and forehead to help take the fever down a little bit, but I would still let it run its course.  Just because we don't use western medicine for our famile does not mean we are not helping our children and letting them cry out in pain.  Are you serious? If I go thru "so much work" making sure my children are fed the best nutrition possible, take the best supplements, and see the chiropractor regularly, of course when my child is in pain I'm going to help them.  What kind of statement is that? I mean really.  And just because a child has a fever, does not mean they are in pain.  I know children who have had fevers of 104 or 105 that "acted" totally fine. Their body was just fighting off something, but they were in no pain whatsoever.  Fever does not always equal pain.  You have to watch how your child is...it's not all about the fever number.  Some children will act VERY VERY sick at 102, so it's more about your child's behavior than anything. There are alternatives to motrin and tylenol, and it's called homeopathics.  No side effects whatsoever if you use those, and they actually HELP the body instead of harm it.



3.  If my daughter had a broken bone, of COURSE we'd take her to the doctor to get it put in a cast.  THAT is what western medicin by allopaths is supposed to be FOR....EMERGENCIES.  If my daughter fell and cracked her head open, of COURSE we'd go to the ER.  We're not stupid.  You insinuate that prents who don't vaccinate are medically neglectful  as if we would NEVER use a doctor, and that is simply untrue and rude.  We believe that doctors are here for us to use when there is an emergency. That is it.  We don't go to a doctor to "keep ourselves healthy".  We can do that on our own.



4.  I did not have an epidural in childbirth.  I did not have any pain medication. I had a natrual vaginal childbirth with a midwife in a hospital birth center.  Our future children will be born at home.



Any more questions?

Sarah - posted on 05/19/2009

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This is a link to the Australian Government Website 'Immunise: Immunisation Myths & Realities' it's an interesting read, no matter you opinion on immunisation. Although, I do stress that this is an Australian website & the information about the makeup & therefore effectiveness & known side effects may differ to other nations.



http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/intern...$File/myths-13-35.pdf

Sarah - posted on 05/19/2009

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The only thing that is possible to spread, is smallpox vaccine (usually NOT given to children) Which is why when it is given, it is constantly covered and if you are not vaccinated as well, you should not come into contact with the injection site beause it is possible for the live virus to infect you.






Just a side note to that, as I aggree with everything else you say, The Smallpox vaccine actually contains Cowpox, so it's not even actually possible to get smallpox from the smallpox vaccine, but yes, you can still get cowpox from touching the site.

[deleted account]

one example i found in 2 minutes (as there are way more but i have no time this morning) when you look at the pdf file for the MMR vaccine look on page 5 of PDF and you will see where it says how it sheds
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circ...

really people you need to RESEARCH before you start pretending you know what you are talking about

[deleted account]

Quoting Heather:

If your child is immunized, then they are supposedly protected from whatever disease it is that they were immunized against. That is the point of immunizations is to protect the children that are immunized. If you want the truth, the un-vaccinated child is in more danger from your vaccinated child because your vaccinated child has now been exposed to the disease via the immunization.



There is no possible way that a child who has been immunized can pass on to another non immunized child whatever shot he or she has recieved! Where do you get your information from?  Your children come in contact with billions and billions of germs everyday, far more then a simple jab contains. The only thing that is possible to spread, is smallpox vaccine (usually NOT given to children) Which is why when it is given, it is constantly covered and if you are not vaccinated as well, you should not come into contact with the injection site beause it is possible for the live virus to infect you. Some vaccines contain live viruses, but in a very weak form that does not cause the disease. Vaccines "teach" the immune system how to recognize and fight bacteria and viruses before an infection happens. By giving the body a small "sample" of the germ, it can develope resistance without actually getting the disease. Certain vaccine preventable diseases can infect babies within their first few months of life. Vaccinating small children helps provide them with protection when they need it. Thanks to the vaccines that we have today, many of the diseases that once killed millions of people (including babies) in the U.S, have not been seen for many, many years! But in other parts of the world, where the vaccines arent available, the diseases that we dont worry about in the U.S, are continueing to destroy the lives of children every single day!

Are the vaccines safe?...no medication is 100% safe. HOWEVER, ALL vaccines that are approved for use in the U.S have been thoroughly tested for safety, and serious side effects are very rare. Before vaccines were developed, polio paralyzed 10,000 children, rubella (German measles) caused birth defects in 20,000 newborns, and pertussis (whooping cough) killed 8,000 children YEARLY!!!  These are the facts. I applaude all of you moms who do not believe in vaccines, especially since I would not have the balls to gamble with my childs life like that.



[deleted account]

Quoting Heather:

If your child is immunized, then they are supposedly protected from whatever disease it is that they were immunized against. That is the point of immunizations is to protect the children that are immunized. If you want the truth, the un-vaccinated child is in more danger from your vaccinated child because your vaccinated child has now been exposed to the disease via the immunization.



There is no possible way that a child who has been immunized can pass on to another non immunized child whatever shot he or she has recieved! Where do you get your information from?  Your children come in contact with billions and billions of germs everyday, far more then a simple jab contains. The only thing that is possible to spread, is smallpox vaccine (usually NOT given to children) Which is why when it is given, it is constantly covered and if you are not vaccinated as well, you should not come into contact with the injection site beause it is possible for the live virus to infect you. Some vaccines contain live viruses, but in a very weak form that does not cause the disease. Vaccines "teach" the immune system how to recognize and fight bacteria and viruses before an infection happens. By giving the body a small "sample" of the germ, it can develope resistance without actually getting the disease. Certain vaccine preventable diseases can infect babies within their first few months of life. Vaccinating small children helps provide them with protection when they need it. Thanks to the vaccines that we have today, many of the diseases that once killed millions of people (including babies) in the U.S, have not been seen for many, many years! But in other parts of the world, where the vaccines arent available, the diseases that we dont worry about in the U.S, are continueing to destroy the lives of children every single day!

Are the vaccines safe?...no medication is 100% safe. HOWEVER, ALL vaccines that are approved for use in the U.S have been thoroughly tested for safety, and serious side effects are very rare. Before vaccines were developed, polio paralyzed 10,000 children, rubella (German measles) caused birth defects in 20,000 newborns, and pertussis (whooping cough) killed 8,000 children YEARLY!!!  These are the facts. I applaude all of you moms who do not believe in vaccines, especially since I would not have the balls to gamble with my childs life like that.



[deleted account]

Quoting Sarah:



Quoting Corrine:

He also eats non-organic foods, he has eaten McDonalds, Sonic, Hooters and at a few other fast food places. He eats his fruits and veggies. He eats hotdogs, canned beans, microwaved foods. He drinks milk (i know some think its bad for you) He eats sweet once in awhile (but fortunatly, he doesnt like them too much) He eats food out of the deep fryer. He is a smart, happy and HEALTHY kid. So i dont understand how you think that just because the food is organic, it is going to keep your child from catchin illnesses. Also, if you are so sure that organic foods, herbs and "sunshine" is going to keep you and your family healthy, why do YOU feel the need to shove vitamins down their throat. if you are so healthy, why do you need those extra supplements??






to Corrine -






You need to be looking at long term effects.  Just because your son is healthy now does not guaranty his future health. In fact, it will probably catch up to him.  Maybe he will not be as affected as some would be, but wouldn't you like your child to have HIS optimal health level (whatever that is). You might  see a problem when he starts school and has to sit still.  Or you might not. You are right - you are the mom and you can decide.  I don't think anyone here shoves vitamins down their little kids throats :)  Isn't there something that says "what you do today you will see the result of in 20 years?".   It isn't all about not catching illnesses - it is about promoting vitality and strength in their whole systems (brains are developing right now for example).  Wanting your child to have the best health they can.  I think we do need to supplement our diets - unless we are growing the foods ourselves with super nutrient dense soils full of composting etc.   Why are you so upset if people DO "shove vitamins downt their throat"?  At least vitamins don't pollute the water supplies like all the Rx's do.






 






My whole point was, that just because he eats "crap" food, doesnt mean he isn't a healthy kid. He eats at fast food places when we are out and he gets hungry. I dont carry around complete meals in my car  with me everywhere I go, so he gets what is convenient at the time. I ate the same food as him when I was younger, and I have no issues what-so-ever. I am not over weight, I am not sick all the time.  I dont see your point about him having to sit still in school...? Just because he eats unhealthy food every so often doesnt mean he will develope some kind of ADD/ADHD. Ive worked in the medical field for the last 5 years, Ive counseled people on healthy eating habits, importance of immunizations and such. The sort of "crap" food he eats is ok...IN MODERATION. He does not get it everyday. My comment about vitamins was that if people think that organic foods, herbs, sunshine, "natural food" and such will make your child healthy, why feel the need to use suppliments? They are not natural. I look at them the same I do with immunizations. (not pointing fingers but the correct spelling is with a Z not an S) I dont care whether or not you decide to give your kids vitamins or whatever. But, Ive already stated my point on that issue.



As to giving children things like tylenol, motrin or ibuprofen...Do you take any pain releivers for headaches, body aches or such? or do you use herbs and spices to cure your pains? wouldnt you think that when your child is teething or has a fever or God forbid something worse, it is your duty as a parent to relieve as much pain as possible for their comfort? or do you just sit there and let them cry in pain? Not trying to start another arguement, just curious. What happens if they have a broken bone, protruding out of their skin? give them some ginger tea , (obviously Im being sarcastic) and hope it takes away the pain? What if they need surgery? Tell the doctor not to put them under and use your hopes and wishes that they are not in pain? I know this is taking it to the extreme but to me, this is what you are leading me to believe would be true for you...Just out of curiosity, all you moms who are all for organic, anti vaccinatating, and oppose any sort of medicine....how many of you had an epidural during childbirth? HONOSTLY



I vaccinate my son, because I am doing what I believe is best for him. and all of the non-vaccinating moms can argue the same. So I think that we all need to agree to disagree because no one is going to change their mind on their belief. This is a pointless arguement that will just go on and on.....and on. I just pray for all of you anti immunization moms that your kids dont catch something serious, that couldve been prevented by a simple little jab in the leg.

[deleted account]

If your child is immunized, then they are supposedly protected from whatever disease it is that they were immunized against. That is the point of immunizations is to protect the children that are immunized. If you want the truth, the un-vaccinated child is in more danger from your vaccinated child because your vaccinated child has now been exposed to the disease via the immunization.

Heidi - posted on 05/18/2009

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Oh, I have had a good time reading all this silliness! Really people, the girl asked a question...I'm sure if she had wanted to see grown women argue like children she would have asked for that instead :) I am confident that all the monthers on here have done much research on the subject of vaccinations and have reached conclusions that they are comfortable with.

Since it is still a choice in the US as to whether or not you vaccinate we may dissagree with one another but don't need to be nasty about it and certainly don't need to discuss whether it is right or wrong in a place where it was not asked for.

Cheryl - posted on 05/18/2009

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I'm in the unvaccinated camp and I'm not going to say anything that hasn't already been said but I agree it's a backward question. If my child gets mumps or measles, we will deal with it. If your child has been immunized, why are you worring? ;-) You're worring because you know deep down it's not 100% and you've probably heard the stats on how it's actually increasing the diseases and the severity!! Check out vaccine911.com and invest in the DVD- it's well worth the $20.

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