Less talking... more spanking?

Carol - posted on 06/18/2010 ( 119 moms have responded )

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Well, usually I dont get in this kind of conversations since some times Iv seen many mommys-drama hunters, so I always sit back, read, learn what I can but since I dont enjoy the "drama" and the argu I just sit back...



But today, after I got my daily "circle of moms " email, I found my self confuse about a conversation about "strategies work for you strong willed child", and it turned into a cat fight over some ladys comments about spanking, offcourse some other moms talked about it like she was suggesting to hit ur kid with the fist and knock him out.



I have 2 kids, one of them is the most amazing strong willed baby girl in this planet LOL, she is smart, she is wonderful and I adore her, but she is a teaser, have I spank her? OMG yeah, do I like it? No I hate it, but trying to sit down and TALK to a 2 year old in the middle of a crissis DOESNT WORK and if any of u HAVE video of u "talking" to a baby in the middle of a tamtrum send it to me to be able to belive!.



Spank is not hitting, actually I have some funny info to share...

While back I used to be a conselor in schools (and an interpreter for Hispanic kids) anyway, MANY of the problems with the kids came from stupid stuff like fighting in class, screaming, running around, you know nothing huuuge, and I saw with my own eyes, how many moms where talking with their soft, caring voices and the kids where getting away with it... and girls as moms we need to see our kids as smarts and sweet persons but we also need to understand that they are (on their own ways) manipulative lill persons, they love us, but they r also humans and as their direct "learning source" they tease us, fight us, and learn from us...



I know the bible talks about setting limits and some how punishing but what I think many people CANT SEE is that the bible is a huge amazing book of RULES, to apply them to your life, to have a better life... If u allow ur kids to play u around like a toy, it will come back to you, when he or she goes to college and ends up IN Wild On on E, or the first time he runs away from home, and then you will regret all the times u "allowed him to have his meltdown because it was healthy and normal"... NO, meltdowns are frustration, yes, but you cannot sit there and give him a cookie or hug him, you need to teach your child limits, do I MEAN SPANKING no, but LESS TALKING yeah...



I wish the best luck to the moms out there trying to hunt down "spanker moms" =) , I use cold water, I wash her face, and her hands and it works very good, but I dont negociate, its not "oooh hun do this and Ill dont spank u ", is teaching a scale of limits, with love, respect and been smarter then a toddler!



=)

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Iridescent - posted on 06/20/2010

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I have a couple questions here. First, why would anyone be spanking an infant? They have no ability to combine cause and effect, or punishment with action. In general, it's infants in diapers. Moving on from that, if a child is not capable of even realizing when they need to use a bathroom yet, as that requires understanding cause and effect for something that happens several times every day, how can they combine cause and effect for a spanking yet developmentally? Mentally they are not capable.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/sp/cd/re/itf09cogd...
"At around 36 months of age, children demonstrate an understanding of cause and effect by making predictions about what could happen and reflect upon what caused something to happen."

This is why, in many states/countries, spanking is illegal until age 3. Some it is age 2, some it is illegal at all ages. The fact that you are swatting a diaper and supposedly it is not to hurt the child is moot. If that's the case, you might as well turn a fan on and say it's because they were misbehaving. Who cares? It has the same effect on the child if it's done that gently as is being described. Or you can swat your own hand for the scary sound, without inflicting any pain whatsoever on the child.

At younger ages and in developmentally delayed/challenged children, much more effective ways to discipline include holding your child, making certain they know they are loved, and restraining them to prevent them from doing what is not allowed. Not so hard, really, and a lot more effective, and teaches the child they are loved.

http://www.childbrain.com/pddq11.shtml
"# Temper tantrum control: Controlling temper tantrums is of extreme importance.
The holding technique, as demonstrated during the office visit, requires a firm hold of the child, with the back to the parent's chest; the child's legs should be held between the parent's legs. During the holding time, the parent must try to communicate with the child, calm him/her, yet not give in to the behavior that led to the tantrum. This procedure is not a form of punishment. It is devised to protect the child and others from the erratic behaviors. It must be done gently, not to hurt the child, yet firmly to get a clear unequivocal message through. It definitely is not meant to be "fun" time and a firm approach is required. Communication must be short, clear, and firm, expressing the parent's appropriate emotional reaction to the behaviors that led to the tantrum. The reaction (firmness of communication) must be proportionate to the severity of the behavior. This will also teach a child whose ability to understand emotional responses are impaired, how one must react under different circumstances. The main objective of the holding and the behavioral modification program is to correct inappropriate behaviors, thus trying to normalize the child's routines and behavior, including all social interactions as much as possible.

There are three priorities, when it comes to "insisting" with a child over behavioral issues.

1. First priority: Temper tantrums and inappropriate behavior that if left unchanged may potentially become life threatening, such as hitting, throwing objects, jumping out of high places or windows, running into the street, or refusing to eat, must be attended to immediately, without compromise.

2. Second priority: "Sitting skills." Behavior, that if left alone, will make it impossible for the child to sit in class and, therefore, impossible to attend school with his/her peers, regardless of his abilities or "baseline IQ." This consists of teaching sitting skills. This may be accomplished while sitting for dinner with the rest of the family, sitting in a restaurant or at any family or social gathering that require sitting skills.

3. Third priority: Dealing with the "repetitive ritualistic habits. Unusual "bizarre" behaviors, that may result in social isolation or difficulties, if left unchanged. Such are inappropriate play habits, pervasive repetition of activities, self-stimulatory behavior, hand flapping, persevering into strict interests or production of unusual sounds. This may be done with a simple firm "stop!" command, and by directing the attention to more appropriate behaviors.

[back to top]

The holding technique is very important and constitutes the frame structure for the behavioral modification program. The holding should be done with compassion, not trying to hurt the child, but helping him/her to adjust to a difficult situation. This is not a form of punishment. Only one parent should communicate with a child while being held. One parent holding, while the other is smiling and trying to console the child, will cause confusion and the wrong message to come through.

The behavioral modification trains the child to acquire more acceptable behavior, thus giving him/her a better starting point, to enter life's social requirements, compared to a child who still remains with all the attended social, behavioral difficulties associated with PDD.

[back to top]

# Communication: Must be short, clear, loud (not yelling). Many children with PDD have auditory integration difficulties. Talking to them excessively will not be registered and may sound to them as gibberish. Therefore, communication must be very simple and to the point, leaving time between words to integrate the information. Eye contact must be worked on.

Never smile or regard inappropriate behavior as cute or funny. Some behaviors as pulling a parent to different locations must be discouraged. Facial expressions by the parents must be appropriate and sometimes exaggerated to teach the socially appropriate way of expressing emotions. Proper attempts by the child to communicate must be encouraged and pursued. "

Jessica - posted on 06/20/2010

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OK, so I read through most of this and I am confused...How is spanking NOT hitting? Just because you give it a cute name doesn't mean that it doesn't cause harm. And how do you spank without hurting? for people who choose to use corporal punishment, isn't that the idea? ...To cause them pain to scare them out of certain behaviors? What is the appeal to spankers if it does not HURT the child???
How do we teach them that "Hands are Not for Hitting" if we are using our hands to get our point across?

Minnie - posted on 06/24/2010

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I would rather smack my little guy on the butt than have him seriously hurt

I hear this from spankers frequently: they spank to prevent injury. Spank to keep child from touching outlet, spank to prevent child from running into road...

My question is- are these spanked children now forever trusted near said dangerous items? Are these children allowed to play near the street?

A young child whose ball has bounced away from him into the street is not going to stop to think "gee, mum's going to spank me." All he's going to think is "my ball! my ball!"

Spanking for the sake of protecting children is pointless. I have been able to teach two little girls to stay away from hot stoves, hold my hands near the road and to not touch outlets without hitting them.

Tanya - posted on 06/23/2010

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* Spanking may lower IQ*
Being spanked as a child is linked to having a lower IQ, according to a study presented today at the International Conference on Violence, Abuse and Trauma in San Diego.
The relationship between spanking and intelligence is found in children around the world, said the lead author of the study, University of New Hampshire professor Murray Straus. Children in the United States who were spanked had lower IQs -- by 2.8 to 5 points -- than those who were not spanked, Straus found.

Straus studied 806 children ages 2 to 4 and 704 ages 5 to 9. Both groups were retested four years later. How often parents spanked influenced IQ score. "The more spanking, the slower the development of the child's mental ability," Straus said in a news release. "But even small amounts of spanking made a difference."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_...

[deleted account]

*sighs* Again I state, read this page:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanki...

"As mentioned above, from a conservative Protestant point of view, it is probable that these passages in Proverbs describe Solomon's own parenting style when he raised his son Rehoboam. The Bible subsequently records the negative effect that this parenting style had on his son. Rehoboam became a widely hated ruler after his father's death. At one point, he had to make a hasty retreat to Jerusalem to avoid being assassinated by his own people:
1 Kings 12:13-14: "And the king [Rehoboam] answered the people roughly, and forsook the counsel of the old men which they had given him, and spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions." (ASV)
1 Kings 12:18: "Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the men subject to taskwork; and all Israel stoned him to death with stones. And king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem." (ASV)

These same events are recorded in 2 Chronicles 10:6-19.

It can be argued that:
Most conservative Protestants believe that the Bible is completely accurate and inerrant - free of error.
The passages in Proverbs probably accurately and precisely portray Solomon's parenting style.
As an adult, Solomon's son Rehoboam, was vicious, unfeeling, inconsiderate to his subjects, had no regard for human rights, and was widely hated. He barely escaped assassination at the hands of his own people.

Perhaps the Bible's true message here is:
If you don't want your children to grow up to be like Rehoboam, then you should not follow Solomon's parenting style, as it is accurately described in the Bible.
You should avoid using spanking or any other form of corporal punishment.
These conclusions seem to agree with recent studies which indicate that one out of every three boys has a genetic problem that will almost certainly cause him to engage in criminal or anti-social acts later in life if he is physically abused. It is unknown what level of corporal punishment will push these children over the edge and make them become violent and aggressive as adults."

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TealRose - posted on 03/22/2011

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Spanking IS hitting !!! Cambridge Online Dictionary : to hit a child with the hand, usually several times on the bottom as a punishment
• to hit an adult on the bottom in order to get or give sexual pleasure

As a 56 yr old grandmother - I would REALLY like to know what on earth a tiny 2 yr old can possibly do that 'deserves' being spanked for ?? Toddlers are wired to learn by touching, pushing, poking, running etc. The don't see danger - and the parent's job is to keep them FROM it not hit them!

Discipline means to teach not to hit.

If adults and even criminals cannot be hit, nor animals, how is it suddenly de rigueur to hit a defenceless child when you use that magic word 'discipline' ??

And not you cannot spank with love - would you say that if your husband 'spanked you but loved you' ? No ..

The Bible told me that the LOVE is the main important thing. That children are to be treasured. That we should treat one another as WE would like to be treated.

My parents spanked me and lost me. They lost my love, respect and trust. They taught me only, fear, pain, anger, hate and resentment.

I never spanked my children and they are great gentle adults. My daughter has two small children whom she doesn't hit either and they are respectful lovely children. There is NEVER a reason to hit a child. There is NEVER a right way to hit another person.

Minnie - posted on 06/25/2010

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Rogina:



Be vigilant with your children. Hold their hands near the road. If they will not, you carry them.



Let them touch the outside of the oven. "Oven is hot! Hurt baby! Ouch!" (with a scared voice)



CONSTANTLY talk about danger. Show examples (case in point: tonight my four year old was learning to cut her chicken with a real steak knife. I showed her the side of my finger that has been cut off with a steak knife and scarred over. "See what I did? I did not hold my knife properly and I did not use a fork!"



For us a lot of talking about what is dangerous and talking (and sometimes showing) what can happen if we are not careful has worked.



My 20 month old will walk down the hallway and point to the "ouchie!" wall outlet to me. She sees the steam coming off of a boiling pot of water with a hot burner and says "hot!" Hurts Adelaide's hand"



But do I simply leave her be near the hot stove? Of course not. Children are impulsive and we cannot trust them to deny an impulsive instinct.



For children too young to understand an explanation: you keep them away from the dangerous item! You cannot expect them to truly consider a spanking vs. the temptation of the object. They are too young.



Remove, redirect, keep your child within arm's reach. Do not trust fear of YOUR spanking to protect your child.



My point is- if you would respond to the question "Do you now forever trust your child near the dangerous item?" with a resounding "of course not!" Then why spank at all?

Johnny - posted on 06/25/2010

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Not everyone on this site lives in the US. There are quite a few countries, including Australia I believe, where it is illegal to spank a child.

[deleted account]

Actually, in some countries it is completely illegal. Here in Canada, it is illegal before 2 and after 12.

Andrea - posted on 06/25/2010

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Just to let who ever said it is illegal to hit adults or children. Yes it is illegal to HIT anyone but It is not illegal to spank your kids on the butt with and a open hand with out leaving marks. Dont believe me call your local DHS office childern servies whatever it called were you are.

I might spank my kids ever great once and a while only for curtain things and they will even tell you when mom spanks me it dont hurt. But they do know I mean bussiness when I do.

spanking sometimes is the last resort but never what you want to do.

Josie - posted on 06/24/2010

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I don't spank my son but I will tap him on his butt or on his mouth if he says a bad word. It's not to hurt him. I would NEVER purposely hurt my son, that is just not right (in my opinion). I also put him in time out in his room. Usually he'll just lay there until he calms down. He's not really bad though, he usually only acts up if he's tired.

Rogina - posted on 06/24/2010

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So Lisa seeing as I am a "spanker" and you are obviously not, how about letting the rest of us in on the secret to your success. What method did you use to teach your 2 little girls?

Tanya - posted on 06/24/2010

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Thanks for the info Amy. They don't do it in my state. I just assumed it was the same everywhere unless it was a special case.

"Because of this, we're going for a further evaluation at a clinic this summer and will deal with the school when it starts this fall as I believe ignoring excellence is just as detrimental as ignoring a deficit."

I totally agree with that. I know that he would be more likely to get in trouble if he is bored with his classes.

Iridescent - posted on 06/24/2010

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Actually, IQ tests are given in the US in schools. My oldest son has one every 3 years to determine how he's doing overall due to his autism - his last one showed him to have an IQ of 89. Subtract 5 points from that and he would be in the mentally retarded range, and that 5 points is what the difference is for some children between the spanked children group and the non-spanked group. 5 points can mean a lot. My second son's IQ was just tested a month ago in school because of difficulty with classes I was concerned about; it turns out he's in the genius range, but the school refuses to change his education treatment in any way to help benefit him. Because of this, we're going for a further evaluation at a clinic this summer and will deal with the school when it starts this fall as I believe ignoring excellence is just as detrimental as ignoring a deficit.

Rogina - posted on 06/24/2010

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I was spanked occasionally as a child. Only when I was doing something dangerous though. I don't feel that I am in any way scarred or traumatized from it. However the one thing that my mom could do to make me behave was to tell me she was disappointed in me. I was raised to respect my mom , and I felt terrible if I disappointed her. I will use the same approach with my son. Kids don't understand consequences a lot of the time, and if they are doing something that could really hurt them, a spanking may be the only way to get their attention enough to let them know what they are doing is wrong. There is a difference in telling a child something will hurt as opposed to an adult. Children, being the curious creatures that they are, may do it anyway just to find out. I would rather smack my little guy on the butt than have him seriously hurt.I will never use a spoon or any other object and I hope no one else will either. One thing I am curious about though, I have heard that you should never hit your child on the hands for some reason. I don't remember why exactly and I am just wondering if anyone else has heard this before.

Tanya - posted on 06/24/2010

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Yeah well at least if he is a thug maybe he can make it as a rapper! Then he would be getting paid yo! Dollar dollar bills ya'll!

I will give another example of how you can teach your children with out spanking. My hubby and I were watching a movie last night. In the movie an old lady dropped something. While she was bent over picking it up a young boy came along and make a thrusting motion at her. The boy was about 12. My hubby said, "That kid needs a good smack." (joking he is not a spanker either)
I say, " Or you could volunteer him to work at a nursing home every night after school for a month."

Which lesson do you think would have a longer lasting impression on the boy.

I think that to say spanking is the only parenting tool that can make a difference is a great disservice to both side of this debate. There are far more factor at work. You can go to a prison and ask how many were "spanked properly" and you would find some. The same would be true of a law firm.

I don't think any of the moms who are non-spanker are saying that they let their children run wild.

[deleted account]

Oh goodness! Not this pointing fingers nonsense again!

Look, Beth, I was pro spank, too. I tried to look up information on how spanking was beneficial and I couldn't find anything! I challenge you to do the same. As of now, I refuse to spank my child, but I don't care what you choose to do with yours.

I think it is a little short sites to assume that parents who don't spank are raising little thugs. There are plenty of other ways to handle a child. Just because a mother doesn't spank doesn't mean she doesn't discipline or punish.

True, there are studies done on rats that state that negative reinforcement will get the desired result FASTER than positive reinforcement, but at what cost to your child? Some children are negatively affected by spanking, why would you want to risk it? That and this study was on rats and it clearly states FASTER THAN POSITIVE.

Please don't disrespect me or my child because I am choosing a different route and we are showing PROVEN STUDIES to back up the point.

Minnie - posted on 06/24/2010

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It's OK, Tanya.

I was thinking about doing some drug trafficking, maybe some burglary, in my thug clothes...

How about you?

Tanya - posted on 06/24/2010

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"Do what you want, but please keep your future thug off my street."

I guess it is true that spanking leads to aggression. I was just trying to post a few studies that people may not have seen yet.

Good to know we have people on COM with higher IQs than Bill Gates! Also if you live in the states school do not give IQ tests.

Iridescent - posted on 06/24/2010

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The research proving spanking lowers IQ isn't "horse manure", it is a controlled study that has been repeated with the same results. The fact that some people that have been spanked still have genius IQ levels simply means they could have potentially had a higher IQ if they hadn't been spanked. Nobody said that spanking a child will turn them into blithering idiots.

Krystle - posted on 06/24/2010

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see i think you ca do both it just depends on your child. My daughter is 2 and if she does something she is not suppose to she gets spanked and made to sit for 2 minutes and while she is sitting i try to tell her what she did was bad and why it is. it has worked so far she has picked up on a lot of things she cant do anymore.

Minnie - posted on 06/24/2010

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Beth, why do you asume that parents who do not punish their children do not teach their children?



A good example of non-punitive gentle discipline in action is the Sears family. All grown, all taught to be disciplined non-punitively, some are doctors.



No punishment does NOT = no consequences. Children do not have to be struck to be taught to be decent people.



You pull these assumptions out of the air. So you would assume that since I wasn't spanked as a child I myself am a thug.

Beth - posted on 06/24/2010

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Tanya, that statement that spanking lowers IQ is the biggest load of horse manure I've ever read. I was spanked, as was my brother, and my daughter. My IQ was measured in high school at 16 and it was 164, my brother at 148, and my daughter is 152, and these were standardized IQ tests administered by the school. Perhaps they are factoring in the impoverished, uneducated masses who just beat their kids because they need an outlet for their anger, or for their mental illness. Also, if you're beating a child so much you traumatize them for life, I guess they wouldn't be doing things like reading Shakespeare between whacks!



Tell you what, you just let your child live without rules or consequences any greater than going to a room resembling FAO Swartz, and you see just how wonderful he is to you when he hits 12. It's parents like you who I dreaded teaching their children, because they were brats who had never had any type of discipline and ruined the experiences of the other-well behaved children who's parents were PAYING for the classes.



Do what you want, but please keep your future thug off my street.

Beth - posted on 06/24/2010

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OK, I have a few things to contribute on this subject. I have been taking care of kids since I was about 12, for babysitting money. Then I went on to own dance studios and worked with children for more years than I care to admit to!

One of the things that I recognized in the children was the difference in those who were never spanked and those who were. Now, I'm not talking about randomly beating your child when you are having a bad day, I'm talking about using spanking as a TOOL to help your child remember that you are the parent and rules must be obeyed, for their safety and to also make sure they REMEMBER not to repeat whatever it was that they did.

I began disciplining my child around the age of one, when she would try to open cabinets or handle my knick-knacks that were off limits to her. I would always take time, in a calm voice, that those things were no-no's and she would get a little smack on the upper side of her hand. Then a big hug and kiss, all while telling her I love her but not to do that again. She learned quickly that there were things that she was not to mess with, and it worked out very well. As she grew older, and better able to comprehend more, and the things she did were more serious, like jumping down four concrete steps at a time, pouring water on the carpet just to watch it soak in, or chasing and tormenting the cat (oh yeah, it happens), I would use a stern voice, sit her down and explain what she had done wrong, and then tell her that she was getting a spanking. Then, afterwards, we hugged and kissed and I told her I love her and never to do that again. For minor issues, time-outs will work sometimes with older toddlers, but for the most part I found it to be pretty useless.
Now before you all go thinking I am some kind of psycho-mom, I also used the 'counting to three' method, and every time I got to three, she got a spanking, no matter where we were. I have taken her out of malls to the car, or to a private bathroom, or if in a friend's home to an empty room to have a private discussion and then administer the spanking.

When she started pre-school, they continually told me what a well-behaved child she was, and some of the staff who were nurses and childcare providers asked me how I had her saying 'yes ma'am' and 'no ma'am' and obeying instructions so well and willingly. I told them how I disciplined her, with logic and talking, and if the infraction was bad, a light spanking to help her remember. They EVERY SINGLE ONE told me they wished other parents would do the same thing.

I didn't have to discipline her often, but that is because when I counted, I always followed through with a spanking. Every time she acted up, we would have a talk about what was wrong with her behavior, why she did whatever or acted poorly, and so she understood that she was not getting spanked because she had a mean mommy, but because I was teaching her right from wrong.

If you've been in a situation where you are teaching 15 young children, you can clearly pick out the ones who have good parental supervision and dicipline. My aunt told me when I gave birth a bit of advice that had rang true for not just me but for every parent I know..."If you don't have control by the age of two, you will never have it".

Don't underestimate your child's ability to understand. They are far smarter than we give them credit for, so talk to them, explain things to them in a way they can understand, but if they don't listen, a good spanking will drive the point home much better than yelling or time-outs. It takes patience, but it actually shortens the discipline time, because the child gets calmed down during the talk, takes their punishment, and cries a bit in your lap while being told you love them and you comfort them. But make sure you don't vary the rules. That confuses any child. If it is wrong one day, it has to be wrong the next.
Most of all, know that children NEED dicipline, and want to know that their world is secure and that they are loved even when they mess up. Parenting isn't easy, it's a job, and you have to take it seriously.

My daughter is a proud student now at NC State, and is on the Dean's list, and holds several leadership positions. She will tell you herself that 'getting a butt busting' never hurt her, but it sure did teach her to behave! I now take care of friend's children, and I explain to them how I dicipline in my home, and they are completely fine with it. And those children love me and listen to me very well. I love them all, and it is my duty to see that they learn right from wrong in the best way possible.

Oh, and please know that a spanking is an open hand on a bottom, nothing else. To use anything to spank your kids with is akin to using a weapon in my opinion, and is totally cruel and unnecessary.

Guide with a firm hand and plenty of love and encouragement and you will raise a well-behaved child who is also a happy child.

Julia - posted on 06/23/2010

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ya spanking works wit sum kids they need to no they cant do things ne1 hu says its rong is just stupid what r u goin to do if they go up to a child nd bite r hurt them just say oh u cant do dat ur goin to bed dats stupid if they do summit they have to be shown its not nice!! i m nly 19 my mom hit me and i learned u dont go hurt or disrespect sum1 nd it does nothin... wen ppl over do it ya dats rong.. bt spanking ur child shud be done just to show them wen ur bad der will b conciquinces and you dont exactly want them ending up in trouble i dont spank my child bt wen es old enuf to no ryt from rong i wil if he goes out of line ryt now es nly 21 munts nd if hes bold i tel em nd walk away nd he gets upset noin im mad and cums up 4 a hug ne1 hu tels u ur a bad mum coz u spank ur child is rong every1 brings their kids up different

Minnie - posted on 06/23/2010

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I could go on all day about those who try to defend spanking by the Bible. I wish that people would own up to the fact that the Bible is written to a people of a different culture than ours, and that it is filled with poetic license and hyperbole in order to get the writer's message across, and that much of it cannot be interpreted literally.



The very same chapter that many people use to defend spanking (in Proverbs, with the 'rod' verses) a man who is given over to gluttony is instructed to slit his throat.



Come on now. So- anyone with an addiction had better be offing herself or himself- it's in the Bible!



You're right, Aura. The rod in Hebraic culture was seen as a symbol of authority and shelter. Extended, it gave life, withdrawn, it took life. It guided sheep, warded off predators, and weary travelers could look towards the tribal leader's staff for shelter.



It was NOT used as an instrument of punishment, and I've stated this before, in Exodus it is stated that if it IS used as an instrument of punishment it can kill.



And one really needs to have an understanding of grace as applied in the Bible. For those Christians who believe that Christ took their sins upon him at the cross and that there is nothing they can do to earn salvation- why do many Christian parents think that they shouldn't extend this grace to their children?



Christ never struck a child. How can one be Christ-like and strike one's child? Christ admonished with words and his disciples were lazy, betraying, acrimonious, faith-less people. Did he hit them? No he loved them through their faults and taught them.



Christ said that whatever we do to the least of these brethren, we do to him. Punish your children, Christian parents, punish your savior all over again.



I think there is the much loved adage within the Bible- Love thy neighbor as thyself. Pray tell- why is this not extended to the wee ones under our wing?

[deleted account]

Thanks, I try, lol! It just really irks me when people claim that God wants us to spank. I truly feel that the rod that is talked about is just alluding to discipline and not corporal punishment with a switch.

Brandee - posted on 06/23/2010

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I have used a method outlined in a book called 1-2-3 Magic.. It is discipline strategies for kids 2-12 years old.. Basically it give the child 2 opportunities to chose to do the right thing before the parents takes action.. My son will be 2 in July, but has started to test his boundaries.. For instance he likes to kick the DVD player in my car.. I tell him "Brandon do not kick the DVD, That's 1".. "Brandon if you kick the DVD again I will turn it off, That's 2".. "Brandon no more DVD, That's 3".. No explaination or discussion is necessary at that time because with a screaming 2 year old discussion is not an option.. He has quickly picked up on the "That's 1,2,3" language.. I have not yet sent him to timeout, but I take action after 3 by removing the object or physically removing him from the situation so he can calm down.. We will introduce timeout in the next few months as the consequence for "That's 3, now excuse yourself to your room until you can calm down".. I just hope to have a household where there is no spanking (hitting) and very very little yelling by the parents.. I think it is funny when people tell their kids "don't hit" as they are steadily spanking away.. Talk about a mixed message!!

Lisa - posted on 06/23/2010

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In response to Susan, this may not always referring to physical punishment, but could be interpreted as a metaphor for swift and logical consequences to behaviors (before 6 is what sticks)? To each his own when it comes to interpretation and implementation I suppose (although I am not against or for spanking- every child is different).

Susan - posted on 06/23/2010

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This is what the bible says about spanking: Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. King James Version. This is the Amplified: He who spares his rod [of discipline] hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines diligently and punishes him early

M - posted on 06/23/2010

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Interesting conversations. I personally go with the 'no spank' crowd. I was spanked as a child and made a vow to myself not to raise my children it such a manner. Mine are now adult and teens and I'm so glad I chose for the non spanking way. My children seem to be a lot more open about their lives and are still willing to come to me with any question; even ones I don't actually want to know about.:) The 'spare the rod' saying in the Bible always struck me as a suggestion to NOT do this.

This is what 'spare means, when used as a verb:–verb (used with object)
1.
to refrain from harming or destroying; leave uninjured; forbear to punish, hurt, or destroy: to spare one's enemy.
2.
to deal gently or leniently with; show consideration for: His harsh criticism spared no one.
3.
to save from strain, discomfort, embarrassment, or the like, or from a particular cause of it: to spare him the bother; to spare her needless embarrassment.

Actually, not many living today knows what the verse truly says, as the original language of the Bible was Ancient Aramaic. Over time much of the original verses have been lost in translations.

As for the 'spoil' part. Its not the spanking that prevents it, its not indulging their every whim, bribing them because you feel guilty; for whatever reason, not teaching them the values of patience and work and not letting them know that there are rules and they must be followed.

Basically, I do me and it has worked VERY well.

Lisa - posted on 06/23/2010

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I definitely agree with what you are saying. Excusing behaviors and attending to a child who is not acting appropriately is not doing anyone any good.
It is a "battle" of wills, and my not playing into the tantrums or the drastic mood swings with attention, snaps a child out of it quickly because they are doing what they are doing for attention.
When it's over, it's over. He's a child who will be irrational from time to time and I am the adult who needs to show him how to handle life's situations appropriately.
Behavior's ceased? So to has my ignoring him. No talking, explaining, or attending to him is necessary until he is ready to be appropriate.
Boundaries and expectations need to be set PRIOR to a behavior occurring and they need to be specific- not just be good in the store, but stay this close to me in the store, walk, and use an inside voice.
You end up having more fun with your child if you are in charge, make it a "game/challenge," and follow this pattern, and the child will immediately show more respect to you. I've just figured this out after a year of "battling." Now we're all getting a better result.

Anna - posted on 06/23/2010

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I still fail to see how teaching a child to behave by hitting him makes any kind of sense. Say it however you like, but a spank is your hand (or spoon or belt or what have you) making physical contact with your child loud enough and hard enough to cause pain and fear. THAT is HITTING. We don't discipline adults by hitting them, why do we feel the need to do the same to children? And what makes people think that if they don't hit their children, they'll end up monsters? "That child runs wild and does what she wants, she must not be getting spanked! Spare the rod spoil the child!" Seriously? Or is it just easier to fall back on when the going gets rough?

Susan - posted on 06/23/2010

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Whether to spank or not should be the choice of individual Parents but personally I have three very strong-willed children and found that it didn't work with my children and was usually only administered when I had totally 'lost it' which just mad me feel guilty, especially when children are only two. Generally a toddler tantrum is attention seeking behaviour! Note attention seeking! The BEST way to deal with a toddler having a tantrum is to totally ignore the behaviour and DO NOT reward them by giving them attention. They will quickly learn that this strategy does not wash with Mum and will learn new (hopefully more positive strategies) for getting your attention. This means that you need to make a point of rewarding the good behaviour - do not ignore them (like I see so many Parents do) when they ask you a question or behave well - make sure you acknowledge it. None of us are perfect and you may find that certain behaviour will only respond to a short sharp smack but it has never worked for my children. My two oldest are well adjusted, intelligent adults so I must have got something right!

Sarah - posted on 06/22/2010

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I am at the other end of the spectrum with a 16 year old son who was an extremely strong willed baby and then toddler. I think unless you have had a truely strong willed child you really cannot understand the need to use physical punishment. Everyone thinks their child is stong willed but believe me some are more so than others! I am sure this speaks to those mothers out there with strong willed individuals. I used phsyical punishment with my son when he was young because at times he simply would not listen and wanted tp push the boundaries way beyond where they should have gone. It wasn't all the time and by the time he was 5 it was no longer necessary. Carol is 100% correct that if you do not have control over the behaviour of a toddler you cannot expect them to grow into teenagers which will respect and listen to you. OF course this is a much more complex issue than simply punishing a child for unacceptable behaviour but there are times when you have to show your child you are the one in charge and they will listen to you. It is not about "breaking" the child's spirit either but teaching them what behaviour is acceptable. I actually removed my son from one school because they didn't understand his nature and I felt their aim was to "break" him. A specialist doctor told me once that if a child is not under control by his/her parents by age ten it is too late. She would see parents of children age 10 and above who wanted her to wave some magic wand to "Fix" their child's behaviour but it was too late by this time. I have never forgotton her saying this and yes, it is hard but as parents this is what we are here for. Interestingly now that my son is a teenager I am able to give him more freedoms and trust he won't abuse them because the groundwork was done many, many years ago. If it is any consolation to those of you dealing with difficult toddlers apparently strong willed children have easier adolescence because they are less subject to peer pressure. This has been my experience with my son not interested in pleasing his peers simply to fit in. The argument about physical punishment is as old as the ages and will continue. I was bought up by a mother who did not believe in hitting children and never laid a hand on my sister or myself. This made it all the more foreign to me to punish my son physically but he was more of a handful than my sister and I put together!! Even my dad supported my methods even though he had never spanked me.

Elizabeth - posted on 06/22/2010

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I believe in spanking. I also believe in talking. You have to have a balance of both. I have heard the phrase from the Bible "spare the rod and spoil the child" used so many different ways it is confusing. But it basically means if you don't discipline the child you will spoil the child. My sister thought you weren't supposed to spank your child either. And she did all the let him deal with it in his own way stuff. Till the day he bloodied her nose. He was 5 and got his first spanking. I agree with you Carol. There is nothing wrong with spanking your child as long as you are not beating your child. There is a difference.

Lily - posted on 06/22/2010

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spanking is a notable signal of you losing control, if you spank the kid you are teaching her to be shameless, you have to understand that in that kind of situation there's an adult and there's a kid so you can't let the kid wont over you but give her a spank it's not a solution, you have to reevaluate why she's acting in that way and stard to fixing the problem beginning that, look if you give her more atention or not give her that kind of attention when she have the tamtrums, remenber kids always would push the limits till the end to find a result in any way they can get it, so try the corner for the minutes of her ages and don't over react cause they just want a reaction no matter how it's the consecuences, just comedown and remenber you are the adult and you have the control of the situation.

Jenna - posted on 06/22/2010

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people need to stop over-analyzing everything. once again, everyone does things differently. if your way works for you, then do it. BUT STOP JUDGING OTHER PEOPLE FOR THEIR WAYS.

Heather - posted on 06/22/2010

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Discipline is more than corporal punishment, (coming from a
country where smacking / spanking at any age is illegal).

For us, consistent reward / denial seems to have done the trick.

Back to the very original topic, aren't all two year olds strong willed? They're not called terrible two's for nothing :)

Tanya - posted on 06/22/2010

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Study says spanking can lead to aggressive behavior
A new study finds that children spanked frequently at the age of 3 are more likely to become aggressive when they are 5.

The study, led by Tulane University health researcher Catherine Taylor, says the finding remains true even when other factors--such as the parents’ stress level, depression, substance abuse, neglect, and the presence of other aggression within the family--are taken into account.

The study, “Mothers’ Spanking of 3-Year-Old Children and Subsequent Risk of Children’s Aggressive Behavior,” will appear in the May issue of Pediatrics.

The research study involved nearly 2,500 mothers. Almost 46 percent reported that they had not used corporal punishment on their child in the previous month, while 27.9 percent said they did one or two times and 26.5 percent reported spanking more than twice.

The mothers with more risk factors (stress, depression, drug/alcohol use) were more likely to spank frequently, but even accounting for that, frequent spanking at age 3 increased the odds of higher levels of aggression at age 5.

The aggression was seen in behaviors such as screaming, arguing, bullying and being cruel to others.

“There are ways to discipline children effectively that do not involve hitting them and that can actually lower their risk for being more aggressive,” Taylor said. “So the good news is, parents don’t have to rely on spanking to get the results that they want. If they avoid spanking but instead use effective, non-physical types of discipline, their child has a better chance of being healthier, and behaving better later.”

The American Academy of Pediatrics as well as other medical organizations oppose corporal punishment at home and in schools.

That, unfortunately, hasn’t stopped the practice in schools. There are still 20 states that permit it, and the Supreme Court ruled in 1977 that it is legal for schools to spank or paddle kids for discipline in areas where it is not outlawed by local authorities.

So, in Mississippi, for example, there were 57,953 cases of corporal punishment in 110 of the state’s 152 school districts during the 2008-09 school year, according to the state Department of Education. It was a drop from the 58,343 cases reported a year earlier--but more than the 47,727 cases reported in 2006-07.

The Tulane study is just the latest in a long line of research studies extending back decades showing that corporal punishment should be considered as a significant risk factor that increases the probability of psychological disorders in children as they grow older.

This is a no-brainer. Adults should stop hitting kids.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-...

"The American Academy of Pediatrics as well as other medical organizations oppose corporal punishment at home and in schools."

Well that is good enough for me!

Jenna - posted on 06/21/2010

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like i said. everybody is different. everyone learns differently. my parents spanked me. i have no desire to hit them. or ever would. because i have respect, BECAUSE they spanked me.

Iridescent - posted on 06/21/2010

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Jenna, I'm not mad at you at all. Some societies have the exact same view as you do - that is, to get respect, you must spank someone. I didn't say that view is wrong, simply that having that particular view indicates belief that a child has no capability of understanding reason at any point without the threat of physical harm to enforce it. If a parent chooses to spank someone in order to get respect, they must also face the fact that when they are elderly and their positions are reversed, they may receive the same treatment.

Jenna - posted on 06/21/2010

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it's funny how some people get so defensive when someone else doesn't agree with them. every person, every child, every way of parenting is different. just because someone doesn't have the same views as you, doesn't make you better than them. if one way works for one parents, and another way for someone else, then that's great! do what works. but don't get mad at me for parenting differently.

[deleted account]

I apologize for misunderstanding. It is tough waters to tread, parenting. I also understand the difference between abuse and a spank through personal experience. My only issue with personally spanking my child is, because of my history, I am afraid of the "gateway."

I know every child is different and, in these difficult and judgmental times, it's hard to raise a decent adult. I know your children will grow to be respectful, as well. If my nine year old were terrorizing a town a spanking would be the least they would get, lol!

Ashlynn - posted on 06/21/2010

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the idea of this comment i believe is not to tell people you should spank or not spank...it is to help us as mothers to understand the different ways and options you have to discipline your child, this forum is to help one another NOT fight!! take what you have read and apply it or ignore it!!! im sick of women bickering over this subject it is silly...different women have different opinions and standards and ways of handling childrenw/o spanking BUT there are also laws to protect the way certain mothers choose to discipline their children. Kudo's to the ones who can simply talk to their children and get them to understand, but "SPANKING IS NOT ABUSE" some children you cannot just reason with you have to lay down the line and buttering them up WILL NOT always work! Women I advise you to read these comments and learn from them. we are all here to help one another to become better people for our children! fighting is never the answer and God would agree..I too am a christian woman and when the time comes i will also spank my child if that is what is necessary for her to learn that I AM the boss and she will do as i tell her! please do not fight, this world is so full of confusion and anger, neglect and abuse. let this be a way for mothers to come with their problems and receive the help they need and not be judged on it!
I will pray for you all

Maeli's Mommy

Hayley - posted on 06/21/2010

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Im sorry Aura, you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that because children arent spanked that they have no respect - what I am saying that because of what I believe is a lack of discipline in alot - not all - homes - that there is a frightening number of children who are running wild.

Also, every child is different. For example, my eldest and my youngest boys are VERY strong willed and other techniques rarely work - smacking is sometimes appropriate and warranted - my eldest is 10 and I have found his 'currency' and what works now that he is older - my second eldest and my daughter have hardly ever had to be smacked and when they do - it is something they dont want to happen again.I feel that you are assuming that I have not used other methods when it comes to my youngest. When it comes to parenting, you cant be black and white - different methods work for different parents - what I object to is all parents who do smack being called child abusers - I know exactly what child abuse is and a smack is NOT it.

Parenting is a difficult and emotional job. We all want the best for our children and we would all protect them with our lives - no child is the same and no parent is the same. If not smacking works for you - then that is EXCELLENT - I am really happy for you!! My youngest is the type of kid who needs to know that the consequences will be immediate - I hardly ever have to smack him now!!
We also need to keep in mind that we all have different standards as well when it comes to our children - I, for one, am big on my children being peaceful and respectful to others and especially authority figures - but to also be assertive enough to correct someone if they are wrong in a respectful manner. Other parents may feel that routine and chores, appearances and grades are more important - we are all in the same boat - all wanting ultimately the same result - to raise functional adults who are worthy members of society and who love and respect their parents and want us in their lives - exactly what method we choose to do it - as long as it is not abuse and as long as it is done in love - really doesnt matter - ultimately we all have to paddle our own canoe.

Im sure that you are a great mum Aura and that it wont be your nine year old running the streets and terrorising innocent people and that your children wont be an embarresment to you in public or are the children that people groan when they see them coming down the street!!

Tanya - posted on 06/21/2010

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unless you are abusing your child, a spank hurts us as parents more than the kid.

If it hurts both of you why do it?

Iridescent - posted on 06/21/2010

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"your child or children need to know who the boss is." What? I guess that excuses it for a husband to spank his wife as well. Or for your boss to spank you. Since "most...won't learn short of being spanked." It's not like they are capable of developing a brain that can learn or anything, after all.

Jenna - posted on 06/21/2010

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i definitely believe in spanking. your child or children need to know who the boss is. and most kids won't learn short of being spanked.
i tell my daughter that i'm going to hurt her feelings. basically that's all it is. unless you are abusing your child, a spank hurts us as parents more than the kid.
my daughter isn't even 2 yet, she says please and thank you and yes, ma'am without me even asking her to. and when she's having a tantrum, or starts whining, she knows if she doesn't use her words, she'll get her feelings hurt.

Kelly - posted on 06/21/2010

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I have 5 grown children and I never spanked them. I think that by spanking them or slapping their hand, etc. teaches them to hit. I have a granddaughter that sounds exactly like your daughter. When my daughter started spanking her hand and saying "no", she started doing it too. She does it to her dogs and to her dolls and to all of us. I believe in time out. If they're too little to put in the corner, I would put them in their room or in their crib and say "that was not nice and you are going in time out". I never said to them that they were bad, I just said that whatever they did or said was not nice and that they were going in time out. As my kids grew older, they would have to go to timeout 1 minute per each year of their age. They grew up to be the most incredible kids you could ever hope for! And don't forget to teach your children manners like "yes sir", "yes mam", "yes please", "thank you", etc. Having good manners will get them noticed by teachers, their elders, etc. I taught my kids by using good manners to talk to them. They often tell me how glad they are that I taught them manners! And I'm always getting compliments on how polite my kids are and that I should be proud! And of course I smile and say "thank you very much, that means a lot to me"!

Renee - posted on 06/21/2010

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i am right there with you hunt me down as well! i do not prefer to spank but i have done it. one day my 6 year old tried and tried my self control including breaking a brand new dvd, knocking over my flat screen tv, terrorizing the dogs, cats, and other animals in the house, screaming, temper tantrums, and everything else you can imagine. sending him to his room did not phase him, sitting in the corner did not phase him, taking his toys away did nothing. finally the last straw was when he took his $250 dsi gift and tried to break it in half and then spiked it on the floor i had it and he got spanked...why? all because he could not have a simple game that was not even in stores yet! nevermind the fact he didn't deserve it but needless to say he lost his dsi for a month, got his butt spanked, and went to bed immediately!!! that was over six months ago and i feel he deserved it. im not proud of it but i did everything in my power to deserve it but sometimes you have to do what gets through to them. eventually everyone out there who only threatens things will have their kids realize mom and dad are not going to go through with it why bother....or manipulate getting to leave or having things taken away because kids cant share and if they can't have something they dont want anyone else to have it.


point of the story don't be so quick to judge; i dont know you or your child and you do so i feel YOU know what is best for them. as well you DO NOT know me or MY child or the life and situations we deal with. some things are justified and only the mother (and father) are the expert of their child and know what works for them and their family and what does not. Again this is a case by case basis and im ONLY talking about Spanking your child not slapping or decking your child, that i have a big problem with and will stand up and say something, but if i saw you spank your child thats your own business and it is not my place to judge. there are limits and they need to be followed.

Just my opinion and my situation

Iridescent - posted on 06/21/2010

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Exactly, Aura. Have I ever spanked? Yes. Do I spank children that cannot associate cause and effect, or infants? NO. Do I make spanking my only method of discipline? NO.

"Pick up your toys."
"I did."
"They're all picked up?"
"Yes."
I get a trash bag and pick up all that are missed, and we donate them to a local day care or hospital. Viola, the next time, their toys are picked up! Amazing how well that works. There are so many ways to enforce rules while also teaching, vs taking out anger and frustration on a child that cannot understand.

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