MOST HELPFUL POSTS
â« Shawnn âªâ«â« - posted on 07/12/2016
Sorry Alan, but in your attempts here, you are continually advocating for an assault method rather than a discipline method. It is no longer 40 years ago. Abusing and assaulting cognitive humans is no longer acceptable, nor is it accepted in most places.
With the proper communication skills, consistency, patience and love, anyone who is headed down the path you claim to have been on will pull their heads out of their asses. One does not have to beat a teen.
Dislike the response all you wish, but just as your opinion that a judicious beating is sometimes necessary, it is mine, and that of other enlightened humans that assault is not a parenting tool.
Jodi - posted on 07/09/2016
What do I have to contribute to this debate? A psychology degree and an education qualification, as well as my parenting skills where I don't feel the need to hit my kids. What do you have to contribute? Other than your view that punishment must = spanking? (because it doesn't). I'm sorry, but you keep trying to say that your experience with this "teacher" who spanked you red raw, bare bottomed and with an implement didn't damage. Really? You think not? Your views are pretty fucked up from where I sit!
What kind of man 50 or 60 year old man comes to a mothers website specifically to debate the benefits of hitting a child on a bare bottom? I ask you that!
Michelle - posted on 07/09/2016
Alan: There are many other ways to discipline a teen and spanking isn't one of them. It is abuse in many countries.
You can have discussions with them and take away what they like for a few days or more. I have teens that respect my rules and know that they will lose privileges if they break them. It's not hard to raise children without abusing them. People just need to actually parent and not use fear.
Alan - posted on 07/14/2016
I not aware that I am reiterating that punishment was the turning point of my life, except to say that yes, I did need it: and I am definitely not Robinson Crusoe. A loving caring family is the ideal environment in which to raise children, as you point out: none the less, some of those kids, of a lesser percentage, turn out spoilt brats, and with all the associated bad behaviour. I agree that guidance is the best way, and always lead (parent) by example, and you have a much greater chance of success than those people who grew up in the emotional jungle. We are a product of our hereditary and our environment and the lucky few scored well on both counts. The enlightenment era philosopher John Lock wrote a treatize titled a essay on toleration. In it he writes about easy it is to create an impression on a children, however, by the time that child is a young adult, it is almost impossible to further impress or even harder to break the old impressions. Why is military training so hard for some, and not for others. Because some were fortunate enough to be taught discipline as a child. Probably not much more to write, and I have to go and feed my feathered females and that is where I am a bit harsh: if they do not produce, they end up in the freezer, and likewise my bovine girlfriends. They become meat pies if they miss two years in a row: and now I had better stop talking like this or I will have some vegetarian trying to give me stick (pardon the pun). Thank you ladies for the discussions and points of view. Alan
Alan - posted on 07/14/2016
No one is advocating assault or violence. The topic of the discussion is essentially parenting and the options available for disciplining children: without adequate training in self-discipline, no child can self -discipline itself innately. Punishment is the means of discipline until the child can self-discipline itself; and then, only as a last resort, as already written two times previously. I probably have very little more to write that what has already been written, and I am not trying to proselytize; I am simply advancing a point of view for which I am giving some substantive premises.
Michelle - posted on 07/13/2016
I agree with Shawnn, it doesn't matter how many times you say that a "beating" was the turning point in your life. I have been guiding my children their whole life so they would never even be making the bad decisions you did.
Alan: Do you think that if your parents were there for you, would you have gone off the rails like you did? If you actually had parents that guided you throughout your pre-teen and early teen years, you would have had the means to make better choices?
I am there for my children and there is no way my 15yo would be doing what you did. My pre-teen wouldn't do it either.
That's what we are saying about spanking not being effective. Actual guidance is the best way to parent.
Ev - posted on 07/11/2016
Reply to Alan:
"Firstly, my empathy with your son. I lost count of the number of times my bottom got painted red for something some one else did. No physical scars now but some deep emotional ones. Injustice riles the depths of my soul, and I will concede this that an unjust beating is inexcusable. How did you deal with the fact the your then husband was beating you son's bare bottom with a belt, and what did you say to your son afterwards."
*****Dad was actually my ex husband by this point and time. As for what we discussed about the "spanking dad gave"---we just talked about it and how he felt about it. I assured him as much as I could. Discipline in co parenting was not happening much on dad's end as it was.
"If I have understood you correctly, you have left ajar a window of agreement by stating that: " you do not agree that spanking is the total ideal way to get punishment done with kids of any age." I agree. Spanking is not ideal, but that does not completely eliminate that option."
*****You were correct in your restating things. For many it does not eliminate the option but I just found it useless with my kids. I used other methods with just as much success as someone who might spank.
" How would you punish an obnoxious 14 year old boy who down pants-es girls just to grab attention and notoriety "
*****If my son at 14 years old had done anything like that there would be "hell" to pay for sure. I am not sure what I would have done but I assure you he would not be doing it again after that. I used a lot of things with my son and more so than with his sister (she was the easiest of the two kids to raise). When he tossed a fit of a 2 year old one time at the age of 8 I made him stay in his room that night and we did not go see the movie we had picked out for that evening but I did make sure his sister did not suffer that and got her some videos at the video store instead. He was only allowed to come to the kitchen to eat supper and then was back in his room. When he got older, I used sentence writing (usually both sides of a piece of notebook paper and that is about 50 lines total) and he wrote a sentence that went along with what he did such as once it was about being respectful. This allowed him to calm down if he had been angry, also helped him with his writing abilities, and a bonus was that I never had to make him rework the sentences for spelling or punctuation because he corrected it himself. When he hit the teens we talked about everything. If he told me he did something he would pay for it of course and it could run from loosing special outings to later on games. Sometimes his temper would flair and I just had to use the game system going up to get the temper to calm down. He knew I meant it and that was the only one time warning he got. So that is just a few things with him I used. He is 19 years old now and works and helps out with his grandma whom he lives with.
" From the way you write I sense that if your methods did not work, you would change them or re-invent some that did, and there is high degree of probability that your children and grand-children are being trained now in how to train their own children."
*****You are absolutely correct on that assumption. My daughter uses a lot of what I did with her and her brother along with whatever her husband's parents used with him and his sibs. Also they live with her inlaws so the grandparents also discipline on the occasions they are in charge of the kids.
" But for children who have known little other then the emotional jungle, it is a virtually impossible road to teach them etiquette, respect and manners without some not so gentle persuasion."
*****Let me tell you something here. My ex and I divorced after nearly 13 years of marriage...two days shy of being legally married 13 years. We had come to an agreement much to my dislike but one I had to agree to for the sake of the kids and that was to allow him to be the primary care parent in joint custody. That being said, dad's home was an emotional roller coaster for them. By the time of the divorce my daughter was essencially raised in that she was 12 years old and going into her teens. My son had only been five at the time. So he depended on sis as a "mom figure" when I was not with them. But I always made sure when they were with me to keep up the morals, values, manners, chivalry, respect, honor, trust, compassion etc. I think you get the point on that. I am not sure what they learned in that respect at dad's other than maybe what should not be done.
" Many a man / woman in prison wished someone had been a bit rougher with them while they were still moldable. After age 20 you have to almost break the mold to affect change and that is too harsh..My point of view is that given some dis-positional temperaments in different sets of circumstances, it is almost irresponsible not cross the line and get a little heavy with a child. Children are quite smart, they know when they deserve serious punishment and they will respect you for giving it."
*****I am sure that is true about those in prison or those that turned out not to be what they wanted to be. But I do think down in the bottom of my heart that spanking may not be the best thing to use after a certain age like some swats at a younger age in a dangerous sitatuion like running into the street. The older kids can understand things and what the rules and consequences are. I find today that most parents (age does not matter here) do not want to do anything or are afraid to do much. I see kids even as old as teens throw a fit of a two year old when told no. The parent then gives into the kids and that is the end of it. It does not teach the kid anything. Other parents leave their kids in cars and think nothing of it and think it is okay to leave them for a minute but do not realize the dangers (heat, cold, kid climbing up front and playing with gears or buttons) by leaving unattended kids in a car. You have other parents that when kids hit the teen years wonder why Johnny is so disrespectful and is so entitled...hello....what you did when he was little might have something to do with it.
It is not all the kids. A lot of it is the parents not raising them. The ones that do I praise heartily. They are at least doing something. Until parents start to take things in hand and deal with it....kids will get worse because they are being taught they do not have to follow rules.
Alan - posted on 07/11/2016
Firstly, my empathy with your son. I lost count of the number of times my bottom got painted red for something some one else did. No physical scars now but some deep emotional ones. Injustice riles the depths of my soul, and I will concede this that an unjust beating is inexcusable. How did you deal with the fact the your then husband was beating you son's bare bottom with a belt, and what did you say to your son afterwards.
If I have understood you correctly, you have left ajar a window of agreement by stating that: " you do not agree that spanking is the total ideal way to get punishment done with kids of any age." I agree. Spanking is not ideal, but that does not completely eliminate that option. How would you punish an obnoxious 14 year old boy who down pants-es girls just to grab attention and notoriety . From the way you write I sense that if your methods did not work, you would change them or re-invent some that did, and there is high degree of probability that your children and grand-children are being trained now in how to train their own children. But for children who have known little other then the emotional jungle, it is a virtually impossible road to teach them etiquette, respect and manners without some not so gentle persuasion. Many a man / woman in prison wished someone had been a bit rougher with them while they were still moldable. After age 20 you have to almost break the mold to affect change and that is too harsh..My point of view is that given some dis-positional temperaments in different sets of circumstances, it is almost irresponsible not cross the line and get a little heavy with a child. Children are quite smart, they know when they deserve serious punishment and they will respect you for giving it. Alan
Alan - posted on 07/10/2016
Little creep; you are being kind. Big vile obnoxious creep would be more correct. No. I did not have parents: and nor did I have a mother and father. I had sire and a dam. If you understand my perspective as advocating bare beatings, you may have read too quickly. ABSOLUTELY LAST RESORT I wrote. And if in your view, gender is the determinant of perspective / point of view; then sure, one of us is sick. Quote: "It wasn't the lack of hitting that caused [me] to be a little creep" You are so right. Because if you take the two negatives out of that sentence, it was the hitting that stopped me being a little creep. I still have very little idea of where you are coming from or why. Michelle and Ev Witt are giving me healthy argument and alternatives: Emotional expression and naked opinion are useless in a argument/ debate. Have a think about why you feel the way you feel, and your opinions might come out with reasons attached. I am not being patronizing, I am trying to reply tactfully because I strongly disagree with what you say and especially when you make your comments so personal. Alan
Ev - posted on 07/10/2016
I have read the posts, Alan.
I do not agree that spanking is the total ideal way to get punishment done for kids of any age. Like Michelle, I raised my kids with morals, values, and so forth. Today because of how I worked with them and gave them consequences when needed for infractions of the rules, they are both now adults and productive. My oldest has two of her own. I swatted their bottoms when little a few times but when they were old enough to understand what I said and what I wanted other consequences came to the forefront. And they worked. I used sentence writing, taking privileges, leaving places we were going to to enjoy things, chores, and sometimes sending them to their rooms. I did not have to spank them either. My ex husband on the other hand would spank and my son told me time and again that he would use the belt. My son would tell his dad that spanking did not work on him at all. But then most times, dad was blaming his son for things his son had not done and had been done by the other kids.
Dove - posted on 07/10/2016
You don't have to hit a kid to parent. No child needs hit. Your parents failed you miserably, but it wasn't lack of hitting that caused you to be a little creep at 14... OR your friends to end up in jail.
That's absurd. Why ARE you on a mom's site advocating bare beating a child in the first place? Sick and creepy behavior for a man supposedly doing so well...
Alan - posted on 07/10/2016
Accepting what you say, in your case Michelle, your way probably is working and is grounded on a stable loving family. My comments are directed at the social chaos society seems to be getting deeper into. In my case I used to steal and fight up-skirt and down-pants girls; all of which was an insecure 14 year old boy seeking attention. My home was an unmitigated disaster. I am grateful for my behaviour altering experiences: Amidst the trauma of a beating, somewhere deep down within I felt that some one cared enough to to put in the time on me. And yes, I agree that the punishment was excessive by today's standards, but none the less I always felt that I deserved it. Two of the boys I hung around with as a teenager, were entering Jail when I was entering university at age 24 and that fact probably initiated my first post. What has changed is that 40 years ago, the cane was the first option (always in private) and it must always be absolutely the last: it is totally banned now. At least I was given the respect of a discussion prior to proceedings. However, given that your way works for you I commend you but still believe that there needs to be a bottom line where a line is drawn in the sand and there has been more than enough talk without result. Ideally your way might be best but child raring is almost rarely in an ideal environment where boundaries can be set and respected. Latch-key children etc. Children are children and boys will be boys. I just do not agree with C P being rejected on ideological ground solely when there is a plethora of mitigating situations and circumstances which dictate to the contrary. And there has be almost excessive research on both sides of the divide.
My comment to Jodi about the German question is an example of just how quickly a society can become utterly decadent when boundaries are removed: just 6 years. Alan
Michelle - posted on 07/10/2016
You can't say our way is not working as you don't know what people are actually doing in their homes.
Just because spanking is no longer accepted, it doesn't mean that all parents are actually parenting their children.
I have seen many children not respect or care about their parents. I also see parents who couldn't care what their children are doing at all.
My children respect me and do what I say. I don't spank them and they are very well behaved. They have manners and respect all adults. The difference is that I have been consistent in what I expect from them and they have had consequences if they do it.
Alan - posted on 07/09/2016
I have degrees in engineering and two degrees in Humanities. I did explain that my experience was anachronistic and I did agree that my experience at school was abuse. But the lack of training in self-discipline today is at the other end of the continuum. Western society is currently at the beginning of the "slippery slope" of anarchy. Or at least, that is the news that comes into my house. And the only lesson that we learn from history, is that we do not learn our lessons from history. The literary critic George Steiner ask one of the most defining questions ever asked, which is : "How could such a thing as the holocaust happen in a supposedly civilized central European Christian country in the mid twentieth century?" The upper echelons of the nazi party were highly educated people. The answer is the incremental erosion of traditional values and time honoured social norms. Children assimilate into the environment into which they are born and they are not born with a set of codified ethics (which are not ethics at all ) nor do they have a moral values innate. They need to be guided, and directed and you no doubt would agree with this proposition, However, in my view, your way is not working. Given the reality that all humans are born with different disposition temperaments, I do not think that I can sum it up any better than the post by Amanada Lynch
Alan - posted on 07/09/2016
There is broad line between spanking and abuse, and that line has everything to do with your attitude. Sit down and discuss the state of affairs with your son and seek his agreement or otherwise as to whether he believes he deserves to be punished. Well meaning and properly administered punishment is anything but abuse. Aged ten would have been a better age to start as the child is then able to rationalize what is happening. Children who were abused usually hate their parent in later life. Children who got the punishment they deserved when growing up respect their parents in later life. Some children respond to dialogue earlier than others, where-as other children definitely need action triggers to get the message .
Dove - posted on 07/09/2016
What the hell is it w/ the overabundance of sick freak child abusers that think hitting their child's bare butt is acceptable?!
Spanking is never the answer, but if you ARE going to spank... one or two swats on a fully clothed bottom w/ your bare hand... and never on a child older than about 8 at the most. If you can not parent your TEENAGER w/out hitting him... seek professional help immediately.
Join Circle of Moms
Sign up for Circle of Moms and be a part of this community! Membership is just one click away.Join Circle of Moms