What ever happened to good old fashion common sense?

[deleted account] ( 91 moms have responded )

Why is it that so many parents seem afraid to do their job? When did the kids take charge? Parents should have command of their children and the children should have respect for their parents. I see posts from so many parents asking questions that I know in their heart they know the answer to. Everyone knows that if a child is old enough to ask for a toy at the store then that same child is old enough to be potty trained. Why is it that parents now days act like it's perfectly ok for a 4 year old to still require diapers or pull-ups? Really? Or the ever so cute 5 year old with a pacifer. NOT! Parents need to get back to the old school way where the child knew its place and so did the parent. We are to be parents, not our child's friend. If my child gets mad at me, so be it. I'm not here for a popularity contest. I'm here to parent!

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Iridescent - posted on 02/15/2011

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You may see a kid at a store with a pacifier in his mouth at 5+ years old, but their parent may see a child actually willing to put something in his mouth for the first time in his life and want to get them that much closer to removing their feeding tube. You could see a child in diapers, and the parent may see their child with nerve damage to their bladder or rectum keeping some degree of dignity in a horrible situation. Do you realize how common health problems causing "bad parenting" (based on your above post) are? And it's not bad parenting at all, the parenting is excellent and loving.

Yes, a healthy child with no problems should ideally be toilet trained by 4, or have the pacifier gone by 5. But this isn't an ideal world and you have no idea what stresses are present in that family. Even healthy children can be unable to cope with a minor change in their lives, and it causes them to need a pacifier to soothe, or a diaper thanks to regression. It happens. You can't simply look at any child (or adult) and know their history and what "should" be done for them. YOU have no right to judge.

♫ Shawnn ♪♫♫ - posted on 02/16/2011

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Yes, Cim, what DID happen to common sense? Most particularly, YOURS???

How about my 16 year old, who had a crushed urethra, causing kidney failure and urinary problems? AND add to that the fact that he was completely a-symptomatic up until the last week when he started being incontinent and having to wear adult diapers. And before you point your little claws, let me point out that this is a normal, healthy child, and even his doctors missed what was happening.

I agree that we are here to be parents, but you need to realize that each situation is different. For example, yes, it disturbs me when parents drag their children out shopping, and let them scream and throw fits in the store. My opinion is that if baby is too tired to keep quiet in public, take them home. However, what if baby has been ill, and this is the first opportunity you've had to stock pantry shelves in a week? YOU DON'T KNOW THE SITUATION.

So, let me ask you this? WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO UNDERSTANDING AND SUPPORT? Do you not remember the phrase "he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones", or perhaps "before you see to the mote in your neighbor's eye, SEE TO THE BEAM IN YOUR OWN".

Or, perhaps the Golden Rule: "do unto others as you'd have done to you"...

Iridescent - posted on 02/16/2011

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Forcing a child to toilet train very commonly causes them to refuse to poop. This causes them to become extremely constipated and even develop bowel obstructions. Constipation leads to pressure on the urethra, which causes urine to sit too long in the bladder and brew bacteria. It also increases the risk of ureter/kidney reflux with urine sitting too long in the bladder, which causes kidney and bladder infections. So pushing a child to toilet train can be a huge health risk if they simply aren't ready.
http://www.drgreene.com/health-parenting...

Hijirah - posted on 02/16/2011

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People are afraid because the 'rules of engagement' are changing and they are trying to figure out whether they should go with the 'status-quo' or go with what is in their hearts and the winds of change. You, of all people, should understand what it feels like to go against the 'status-quo'. Sounds like you have not only identified with the perpetrator but you also subscribe to 'Adultism', which is every bit as oppressive as racism, sexism and classism.
Oppression is oppression is oppression and it has been informing/dictating the dynamics of our 'social ecology' throughout our entire history. Look up tyranny, dictatorships, feudal societies and educate yourself about the 'rules of engagement' imposed upon the people. Read 'A People's History of the United States' by Howard Zinn, as it illuminates our history from the standpoint of the under-class.....extrapolate this to children?! The last under-class whom people still have the right to hit and enslave?! (Except this has been out-lawed in Scandinavian countries......THANK the old growth trees:)
Let me ask you, has a 'one-size-fits-all' mentality ever worked? Or, 'herd-mentality'? What does the word 'discipline' really mean....'to teach'. Your statement, "Parents need to get back to the old school way where the child knew its place", what the hell are YOU really saying? Come on! Check yourself? Extrapolate your statement into the 'old days', 'old ways' or 'old school' when women knew their place and blacks?! The new paradigm carving its way into our hearts and souls is about 'Equality' and conflict resolution through 'Reflective-Dialogue', to name just a couple of things.
It is wisdom and the people's hearts that move the age. The current thinking in 'Child Development' didn't happen in a vacuum!! The current thinking emphatically states: "IT IS IMPERATIVE PARENTS KOW HOW TO INTERACT WITH THEIR CHILDREN IN DEVELOPMENTALLY APPROPRIATE WAYS AT EVERY STAGE OF THEIR DEVELOPMENT. This translates into acknowledging every child is different and does everything at their own pace. You should check out 'Discipline, Love and Logic', as it has given parents an incredible gift of guidance. So much of a child's learning can happen through 'natural consequences'. This means we have to begin to trust in the cues our child is giving us from day one and build our interactions with them based on this incredible information, instead of imposing a cueing system upon them. If you feel a child should 'know' its place then you are imposing some weird 'abstraction' on them. This type of thinking has no basis in reality and it breeds fear and worse yet, psychosis.
If you don't consider this information? and just react because it opposes your current philosophy, do not be surprised if you not only go through 'the terrible twos', which is a sham, and 'teenage rebellion', another normalized sham.
I raised two boys, who are both in their mid to late twenties, without hitting them and using an authoritative dynamic and low and behold, no terrible-twos and no teenage rebellion. I work with at-risk youth doing high-risk art......believe me, I GET IT! And no, it doesn't mean I know everything AT ALL:) Mostly, it is painful to read this kind of thinking. But alas, I am not surprised. Creativity is KEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oppression began to be eradicated with the abolition of slavery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The philosophy you are espousing will raise a deceitful, angry, oppressed inauthentic human being. If your child is intelligent they will figure out a way to manipulate you until you are 'bug-nuts', making you wonder how you raised such an 'oppositional-mouthy-high-chair-tyrant'.
The public schools have become the co-dependent arm of society having been forced to educate kids who don't know how to think creatively, who are damaged emotionally from varying degrees of emotional and physical abuse which is rooted in your ignorant hypothesis.

Johnny - posted on 02/16/2011

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"Wow, I think a child should be toilet trained by 3. IMO. Kids at that age KNOW when they have to pee or poop, which is why they usually run to another room to do it in their diaper. I think parents SHOULD be making their kids go to the bathroom"

When I read this I had this hilarious image of my girlfriend sitting on her son to force him to remain on the potty. Or strapping him to it with duct tape. That might have worked. That kid was impossible. Completely refused to sit on the thing until he was nearly 4, no amount of removal of priveleges, encouragement, offers of rewards or strict instruction was going to get him to sit his ass on that thing. He'd suffered from serious constipation as a baby and the doctor believed he was afraid. I can only imagine the trauma if she had forced him to do it. He'd probably still be in diapers at age 10. He was potty trained before school, but only because he had become old enough to listen to more complicated instructions and have a more in depth discussion about the problem. If he hadn't been so verbally precocious he probably wouldn't have been able to manage.

I can't help but laugh when I read someone asking what happened to common sense and they then proceed to offer a rant that so completely lacks any. Common sense includes understanding that each child is a unique individual and needs to be parented in a way that is sensitive to their needs. Childrearing is not a military drill exercise and kids aren't little soldiers marching in sync. I do believe that parents need to GUIDE and sometimes lead. But there is no reason why you can not be both your child's parent AND friend. Even as a teen, I considered my parents to be my friends, and they were definitely anything but lax. I was fully convinced that I may have had the strictest parents on the block. However, they always treated me with compassion, respect and understanding. It's not about "popularity", it's about forming a strong bond that will help you guide them successfully.

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Melissa - posted on 02/20/2011

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Wow! You seem to have touched a nerve Cim. I do feel like you are a bit harsh. Although, I am a big fan of "judge not, lest you be judged." Maybe I am little sensitive though.
I assumed you were directing this post towards parents in general and not specifically people in your social circle so it is safe to say you are guessing that the 4 yr old in diapers and the 5 yr old with the pacifier are indeed 4 and 5? That's "the nerve", my son is (and always has been) in the 98th percentile for height so he towers above his peers. I get tired of the disapproving glances/comments for his seemingly inappropriate behavior for a child his age. (He will be 4 in March and has been wearing a size 6 for a couple of months.) He was potty trained two months before his 3rd birthday, but he appeared to be 5 and because he spoke rather well for a child his age...you get the point?
As for being his friend? It's too early to say. He does tell me I am his best friend, and I love it! ;) Really though, we have rules, I enforce them, he tries to follow them the best he can for being a pre-schooler and lacking impulse control and I hope that as he grows he actually respects me. I respect him.

Jill - posted on 02/20/2011

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My son is very advanced in his speaking skills. By two years old he could walk up to a toy in the store and ask (with manners) for the one he wanted. I do not believe that at 2 years old (meaning 24 months) he had the ability to control his bladder and master potty training. Every child advances at a different pace and it not your place to judge.

Johnny - posted on 02/20/2011

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So you come on here, post a controversial rant, and then act surprised and upset when people don't agree with you?

Oh, and special needs children have parents. Parents who get a little tired of judgmental stares and comments every time they are out in public coming from people who make assumptions about their special needs children.

Tina - posted on 02/20/2011

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What I am saying is that it is stupid to care about someone else's kid having a pacifier. Let that family deal with it themselves. Does another child's pacifier use have a negative affect on you? If a parent is concerned enough over pacifier use, they will find a way to get rid of it. If they want to get rid of it but do not want to do so because the child will cry, tantrum, etc and they don't want to be "mean" to the child by taking away the pacifier, then yes, I agree with the OP that the parent is allowing the child to assume control in that situation. However, everyone is assuming the intent of the OP. I would rather the OP explain her intentions herself. Her tone came off VERY different from what the defenders are proporting.
Also, it is stupid to obsess over a child not being potty trained at 2 or 3. Many kids are not physically ready. If it is a defiance thing, that is one thing. But I've seen so many people complain that their 22 month old won't potty train. If it isn't a concern to that child's parent, and you don't have to change that child's diaper, what does it matter when they achieve potty training success?
And the reason why we parents of "special" kids are so offended is because we are sick of other people judging us like this OP without knowing our kids disabilities. Just because our kids look normal, doesn't mean they are and we are sick of hearing judging comments like this.
Now, I agree with the OP when it comes to things like bullying or disrespect of teachers, especially when the parent defends their child's behavior. Many parents don't want to discipline or do so so inconsistently that the discipline is ineffective. I have a friend who does not follow through with her threats with her child and he has become disrespectful to everyone and a physical bully to others. This is indeed a problem.
But since this OP focused only on pacifier use and potty training, she got a lot of heat for it. I'm sure most of us agree that lack of discipline is not good and brings about out of control, disrespectful, manipulative kids. But, I'm not sure what she means by "old school" as there are many ways to discipline effectively. The term "old school" brings about the image of heavy handedness to me (physical punishments, verbal threats, etc). This I think many may disagree with. There are other ways to discipline, but the key is consistency.

[deleted account]

Wow! To all the parents who said I am being judgemental and ignorant, aren't you doing the same thing? I decided to post one time to see what kind of responses I would get and let me tell you, most of you proved my point. Get over yourselves! If any of you who posted about special needs children and the such had really stopped and thought about my post, you would have realized that I was not speaking of special needs children. Just the opposite. My post was aimed at parents! I thought this forum was for people to be able to post without being attacked. Guess I was wrong. Oh well, one post was enough to prove my point, now I'm gone. Thanks for the experience.

Johnny - posted on 02/20/2011

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No, I suspect she was referring to the average developing healthy child who has no physical, psychological or developmental issues that would get in the way of parenting in the way she believes it should be done.

However, you can't just pick out of a crowd the kids with the issues. It's not always readily apparent to the person walking through Walmart that the 5 year old throwing a tantrum about losing their paci is actually developmentally delayed. On my street, there are 6 kids between 2 and 4 years. 1 has autism, another has a developmental delay, and one had 2 heart surgeries and 3 cranial surgeries in his first 18 months that obviously lead to slower developing. Looking at the 6 kids, you'd be utterly unable to tell which ones had the problems.

That's the issue with comparing kids/parents now to kids/parents in the past. Firstly, autism rates are skyrocketing. Secondly, in the past, people very often put developmentally delayed children in group homes or institutions so you didn't see them shopping at the store with their parents.

As for potty training issues, has anyone ever heard of Sigmund Freud? One of his most famous theories is that many people get stuck at a point of emotional development where they are focused on being controlling, obsessive, stubborn and must hold on to objects, people, or money. This is called being anal retentive. According to Freud's theory, much of this stems from kids who have experienced conflicts during potty training. The reason so many psychologists, developmental experts, and pediatricians have moved away from recommending forced potty training is in order to avoid some of these issue (among others). Whether a parent potty trains early or does it late, forcing a child is not the great idea a few of you seem to think it is.

Jenni+shane - posted on 02/20/2011

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a child who is still in nappy at four or older must have a disabilty cos no way they should be still in nappies the right age is two and three is a bit to late to me. a child who has experience something sad in their live does not need a tummy to help deal with it i hate that excuse i sorry but i think parent should be talking to them about it taking them to doc if necessary i think a teddy for a comfort toy at that age is suitable. my child will be two in july i hoping to get rdi of it by xmas if not sooner she have keeps teddys in bed with her in instead i dont even care if she walks around carry one she knows if she wants her tummy now she has to be in cot otherwise no tummy

Kalpana - posted on 02/20/2011

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Chandra I totally agree...

What happened in our genetics? If it worked for most parts why not now? Respect the parent and listening to what they say will relate to also respecting others. If they are to have their way over a pacifier then what guarantee it is to have them listen to you about respecting elders? Come on. How did pacifiers and potty training become stupid stuff? They all work together in bringing up a child as a whole. Nothing is isolated!

By the way Beverly, well said!

Bonnie - posted on 02/20/2011

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I agree with Beverly. Nowhere in the post did the OP mention exceptions or children who are sick or have disabilities. She is obviously referring to the every day healthy child.

Tina - posted on 02/20/2011

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Perhaps potty training is harder because diapers have changed from uncomfortably wet cloth (or not-to-absorbant disposable) to these very comfortable, hardly feels wet diapers. Also, I think with both parents usually working, many people may feel it is easier to deal with diapers for a while longer than with the difficulties that come with potty training. Potty training is a bad example of bad parenting, because you can't really make a kid urinate or have a BM like you can make them sit in the corner for mouthing back for instance. And some kids just aren't physically or cognitively or mentally ready at 2 or 3.

Beverly - posted on 02/20/2011

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I don't think she was talking about the exceptions, especially the medical ones. I think she was talking about those other kids. The ones we all see while we are shopping at walmart. The five year old who will pull out that paci to throw a tantrum because mommy said "no". Or the parents who are just too lazy to properly dedicate the time to teaching potty skills. Those we usually just know about from social circles. We must all try not to be so sensitive.

Chandra - posted on 02/20/2011

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barring any medical or emotional issue with a child, what has changed so much in our genetics over the past 25-30 years that makes it so hard to potty train a 3 or 4 year old?? if mothers in other countries and our own mothers and grandmothers succesfully potty trained young children (or never used diapers at all) why is our society incapable of doing the same? i think there is some merit to the "old school" way as some like to call it, as well some merit with the "new" way of thinking. many aspects of the old were too harsh and abuses did happen.... but now we've gone too far the other way and become too soft and let our kids take control. and before anyone jumps all over this and starts ranting about their "special" child, i am referring to an average, healthy child with average intelligence. there will ALWAYS be special circumstances and like many have said "each to their own", but as a whole i think many parents are creating their own problems (whether they realize it or not). we've lost that connection to previous generations that our parents and grandparents had and i think THAT is really the sad part of this whole discussion.

Stifler's - posted on 02/20/2011

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I give my kid a snack or drink or something out of the trolley to play with, whatever gets me in and out of the supermarket ASAP with minimal noise pollution.

Jessie - posted on 02/20/2011

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In regards to the not believing potty training can cause damage...I can say it can and will in some children. My son for what ever reason was terrified of the potty...we had little potties in every room...some would sing...or whatever..I would never force him or take thins away or punish him. i could get him to pee in it..but he would not poop. He would hold it...and hold it...and caused nerve damage so he wouldnt even realise he was going on himself. I didn't know this could possibly happen! finally i broke down and took him to the doctor. He had to go on prescription meds to help him poo. He has been on and off of them since he was 4, and is 9 now. He was in pullups til he was almost 5. My son had his binky til he was 18months old. There is nothing wrong with my son mentally. I am not a bad parent and love my children with all i have and would give anything to make my sons life easier. With that being said, i do highly agree with you on the common sense part. My issues come in with the recall of millions of baby monitors just because parents put them too close to the beds and the children get strangled. Its common sense to not put cords close to your childs bed. I also try my best to plan outtings when my baby should not be tired. However, when a child asks for something and doesn't get their way, they can and will sometimes throw a tantrum because they aren't getting their way. My son did it, but only a few times. However, i did have someone comment to me that i should give my son a piece of candy in the check out aisle that he was screaming for...What would that have tought him? Nothing. He would have gotten something he did not deserve and expect to get it every time we were in that situation. I didn't enjoy hearing him screaming, and was utterly embarrassed. I was relieved when 2 other people commented on how good they thought it was that i did not give into him. My childen have great manners. But every child will act out at some point and that doesnt make for bad parents either.

Tina - posted on 02/20/2011

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So someone who is judgmental shouldn't be judged in the same manner she judges? She makes lots of assumtions about others and seems to have figured out what ages are too old for "a" "b" or "c". She never said anything about "encouraging" vs. "commanding". Let her defend or explain herself. I said in my post that even if someone wasn't disabled, what business is it of hers when someone is potty trained or off the pacifier? I mean really. It's more important to focus on kids respecting their elders and having compassion for others, etc. The rest is just stupid.

Lynn - posted on 02/20/2011

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A military parent is exactly how Cim has come across to most of us.If she had said the post was aimed at healthy kids with no illness,disability or trauma, maybe there would of been different responses.
Many of us and people in our lives have children who it would be a godsend to be able to do the things others take for granted and to come to a place for advice and support and read a post like that (and it happens often),sometimes it will provoke strong reactions and get peoples back's up because we spend our lives fighting for our kids rights and to have them accepted,what we don't need is what comes across as another attack on our parenting.

Kalpana - posted on 02/20/2011

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I think many of you are being judgmental on Cim. She probably meant kids who not have special needs or care. Potty trained does not mean bed-time trained. Though pediatricians have their own scientific things about psychological impact in forcing kids to potty train, i agree it is better to encourage kids to potty than have them sit in the poo. encouraging them is not commanding them. there is a HUGE difference. The way you are harsh with what Cim says seems like you are making her out to be some kind of military parent.

Lynn - posted on 02/20/2011

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I thought some of the original post was correct, although some common sense and respect would of been nice, if you were lucky enough to have healthy children then yes, they would often be toilet trained etc very young.
I have 2 boys with aspergers, 13 year old gave up his dummies at 2 with no problems,he was speaking fine etc and he potty trained in a day.He just decided enough was enough and went straight from pull ups to toilet.
My second son is 22 months, very little speech and carries a dummy but only uses it when he is going to sleep or into an unfamiliar place and is overwhelmed.
He won't be potty trained any time soon, I am trying but he is only just recognising that pee and poop come out of his body.If he is without a nappy,he gets upset if he pees but won't sit on a potty.
I am not going to rush him, he will do it when he is ready.
Here in UK, kids are not accepted into nursery school (most places) unless they are fully toilet trained,so we will continue to work on it.
I am not my childrens friend, I am their mum who they can also have fun with.They know if I say something I mean it, which is great for ASD kids of any age.

There are so many kids who continue to use nappies due to medical and psychological conditions that we are not privy too, we are too judgemental as a society and it needs to stop.People should tend to their own business and butt out of everyone else's unless invited into it.You have no way of knowing what goes on in others lives, so just because your kids are perfect in your eyes and do everything you order them to,does not mean everyone else's kids or parenting fall into categories of parenting according to Cim, or bad parenting,there are many inbetween types of parenting
too which suit other peoples circumstances.

My children will not be the same as many others, but they are not rude,disrespectful,lazy or raised badly, they just see the world differently, a world that is often too ignorant to accept them for who they are.


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Crystal Miller - posted on 02/20/2011

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As a pre-school aid I have noticed alot of parents feel guilty about parenting especially when they are in a divorce situation. I see children learning this and when they get older they are giant manipulators. Children only learn what we teach them good or bad.

Tina - posted on 02/20/2011

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Wow, you are quite ignorant and judgmental. You seem to lack compassion, empathy, and the common sense you seem so bent on finding. I, ashamedly, thought like you when I was young, before having kids. But then I had an autistic child and that changed my perspective on everything. Do I let him take charge? No. But, I do understand now why parents may be dealing with a tantruming child in public or a child in diapers, etc. Like many have said, you do not know what that family is going through. That child may have sensory overload in public and screams to deal with the discomfort. That child may have physical problems related to potty training. That child may have a sensory need for a pacifier. Even if they didn't, what business is it of yours? The age of potty training or pacifier use is not whatever YOU deem it to be. Being a parent is more than just being a drill seargent. It also involves compassion and understanding. Being inflexible and hard-nosed will only backfire in the end.

Rebecca - posted on 02/20/2011

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I have a 4 year old grandchild in pull ups - and yes he is able to go potty - most days , but please do not be fooled. 1 out of every 84 boys are autistic. His body is that of a 4 year old, but his understanding is that of a 18 month old, and his verbal skills are those of a 2 year old. Some days are better than others, and I very seldom take him to the store with out pull ups. He will go potty at home or at school, but in an unfamiliar place. Not a chance of it. By the way he also has a pacifier. That and strong "hugs" are the only way to calm him if he is overwhelmed.

Keisha - posted on 02/20/2011

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Children are different then when we were kids. You need to allow a child a voice but at the same time demand respect.
The rule of thumb for kids back then is been seen but not heard. I appreciate parents being different with each child. Not every child requires the same type of potty training or pacifier wiening. You never know my child was 4 1/2 by the time she decided she wanted to do the Potty thing. She was dealing with her GranMother passing to brain tumor, the pace everyone was moving at and had the share her spotlight with this cancer battle. I was never ashamed nor do i judge. Every child is different....same rule can't apply to everyone.

Stifler's - posted on 02/20/2011

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Yeah there's more simple things that can go wrong too, like being scared of the toilet or potty.

Bonnie - posted on 02/20/2011

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I agree with Johnny. If a child really is not ready to be potty trained, they will hold it in because they don't want to use the potty. Then they won't go in their diaper because they think they will get in trouble because they are being forced to use the potty. So yes, it is possible.

Johnny - posted on 02/20/2011

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Actually Kristen, it is well documented in pediatric medicine that forcing children to potty train will often result in them withholding their bowels and sometimes their urine which can lead to serious complications. Constipation and urinary tract infections are common results of attempting to force a child to train before they are ready, and generally results in it taking longer to get the child to train. Most child development experts and pediatricians will recommend that if your child is showing significant resistance to being trained, it is best to wait a couple of weeks and try again. That does not mean that for average children you need to wait until they decide to do it all on their own, there is no reason not to attempt to get them started. But forcing them against their will can cause physical problems and will likely also have emotional repercussions. Just because you are not aware of it does not mean it is a bunch of bull. Do some research and you'll find out fairly quickly.

Kristen - posted on 02/20/2011

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What a bunch of bull! in re to forcing potty training. They will not get infections by learn to use the bathroom! It is better then having pee sitting in a dirty diaper. Come on really a little over reaction saying they will get infections!!

Kristina - posted on 02/20/2011

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I agree that parents need to be parents. That means we love our childern, teach them, guide them and be compassionate. I use to look at parents with a child still using a paci at 4 or with a child unpotty trained by 5 and wonder what was wrong with the parents. I no longer do that because I have learned not to judge. I now gets the dirty looks that say you are a bad parent because my teenager son is curling up in a ball because there is to many people in a room. Sometimes I get the look when he won't answer their question. My son has Autism and is non-verbal, you can not tell this by looking at him, he 7 years old before we received a diagnosis. Please think before you judge, being the parent of special needs child is challenging enough without being judged. These boards are here so that we moms can help each other with raising our childern. Please before you respond to a question please consider that there may be an unknown issue.

Marcie - posted on 02/20/2011

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totally agree with you Shawnn - I think the above is extremely harsh, I can only say I would never want to be this person child...

JENNIFER - posted on 02/20/2011

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in today's society parents are too relaxed, or some are even afraid of their children.
my children are my friends to some degree, They know exactly who is the parent in the house.Parents leave the parenting to others, the poor nursery teachers are not the parents of your children, you are.So parents come on lets get back to the basics of life.

Ndelamiko - posted on 02/20/2011

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I wrote a long post really detailing what I thought about a lot of the discussion I read here, and you know what? I realised as I really got going that it was pretty pointless to get into it with most of you... all the stuff I was writing about, most of the commenters here are already caught in its vice and wouldn't know how to recognise the cage they're in and raising their children in, because they just think it's their normal environment.

So what I am going to say instead is: Cim, you're 100% right and I am with you... let my son tell everyone later I was strict no-ass... but um, I'm with you.

Marcie - posted on 02/20/2011

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It's fine to parent, but I don't agree with some of the "old school" ways I must say. Children should respect their parents but it's a 2 way street, to encourage proper behavior, it's not about "commanding" that of your child. If you both respect each other you naturally have better listening within the child. It's now none that kids bladder/ bowel controls develop at differant rates - things that probably tramutized many kids back in the old school days. MJy first son - it took til he was 8 until his blader was finally able to have his brain wake him up in the night to go - otherwise he was wet every night sometimes more then 1X/night & it didn't matter if he drank before bed or had nothing to drink for hours before bed. Now my 6 year old also still gets wet most nights - but he's not as deep a sleeper so I hope he'll be waking up to go on his own soon. Both of my boys are very sesitive & had I been screaming about it it would have gone on longer as I would be creating stress in the kids. Unfortuately my 6 year old sometimes wets himself during the day I believe due to stress at school. So you have to becareful how firm ou get with young children in-particular, as many of the wetting ,etc. they aren't in full control of yet - & can you imagine trying our hardest & being screamed at for it?? talk about trauma...then therapy... I agree your not there to be their friend, although it's nice when you have a great connection with them & they want to play with you etc.. & yes your to parent, but every parent knows they own child.

Brenda - posted on 02/20/2011

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I do agree with you but yes you do come off strong. I feel she is talking about children that don't have physical problems and seem healthy and normal. While I do agree with you how do we know what that child/family is going through? We see it in the schools how many kids have the NORMAL families we are use to? Most kids are raised by one parent that may work full time, or have two parents that don't live together so that child is back and forth to one house then the other. These kids have two houses, two bedrooms. two set of toys, two sets of rules. So we outside don't see the real situation that can cause these issues. LOTS of kids are raised by an aunt, grandparents or in foster care. I do also feel that the world has made it where the kids have all the rights you can't hardly tell your kids No as you may have them suffer emotional damage. Yes we do need parents to make rules and not give kids everything they want. I see way to mauch of this. Kids that have families with FREE hot lunch and on food stamps but has $400 Ipods. We need to take away privaleges they need to know who is the boss. These are TOO out of control. We have guns in school now because we can't interfer and make our kids behave. No that is not always the case but the kids in schools are soo out of control and the schools just let it go but it is really down to the parents not setting rules and teaching kids respect. I went to the high school our is a decent school in a good area. I walk up to a group of teens and the language was like in school?? Our daughter says they don't punish for that. I was shocked that this is okay now in school. I decided to homeschool the next one coming up. Don't go there are we do LOTS of interaction with kids regular and have classes with homeschoolers, do art classes, civic theathre, swimming lessons, soccer, library activites so NOT all are homeschoolers. We do even attend art and gym at the local public school. I don't feel safe having a child in the public school anymore. Why because parents have went WAY TOO over board with letting kids run the home because kids have all the right now days.

Carolyn - posted on 02/19/2011

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I have the courage to change what I can, accept what I can not. Its tough to tell a parent they are not setting the best example, by having fights in front of the child. Physical or verbal & emotionally it's all wrong.
The part about fits is, some parents were never taught how to deal with their own feelings. So how can they possibly expect to teach the child. Sadly some do not think they're doing anything wrong. Some have even said to me, my mom said I was the same way when I was little. They don't know any better.
Accomplishment, self-image are just the tip of the ice burg when raising a child. Yes, it does take more than just parents. That I agree, I did my part for my own kids. I tried to help those who asked (few). When those parents pull that child from the Center it's hard to help them. We as caregivers must report abuse of any kind. But not allowed to follow up on any case. I have reported various cases of issue from neglect to physical abuse. My hands are tied after that by law. The parents that need parenting help, are the very ones that do not think they need it. I dealt with small children so I was able to get help early on. But they have to be willing to receive it. (Parents)
I do know very well how to raise emotionally & physically sound children. Son is a Fireman with a 6 yr College Degree, wife, 1 child & 1 on the way. Daughter in College wtih 4.0 grade average. Majoring in Pre-Med she is working part-time, lives away from home. Both doing very well thank you. When those children aren't yours, you can only do so much.
I used to tell my parents all the time, let him/her experience the feeling of whatever it may be.Talk to them about the issue, some of them would listen, others not so much. Expression of feeling is a good way to channel the feelings in a positive direction. If you don't know what the feeling is, it's hard to put a positive outlook on it.
I applaud you for what you're doing for the young youth. Lord knows their are a lot of kids that need assistance. I thank you for all your efforts & patients with them.
At the end of the day, I am just a retired grandmother whom has raised thousands of children over the last 28 years. My Center was closed in 2008, I did my best, followed the law & treated all of those children as if they were my own. God Bless those children on all their journeys through life.

Katherine - posted on 02/19/2011

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'be the change you wish to see in the world'. Compassion toward all human beings and their situations is a 'priceless' commodity that is completely under-recognized and under-valued........


Love it!

Katherine - posted on 02/19/2011

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We just had a discussion about this and basically the census was 75% parent first and 25% friend second, always.
I think most parents are more friend than parent.
I must agree with most of the posters though: This came off really badly.

Hijirah - posted on 02/19/2011

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Carolyn, I am a grandmother too and have raised two amazing sons. One raced and trained with Lance Armstrong and one is a lawyer. I am only telling you what they have accomplished because it speaks to the environment they were raised in. They were not raised in privilege or with high expectations academically and professionally. They were raised in an environment full of love, support, creativity and a 'what is possible' philosophy.
We were barely middle class. What I hear missing in these simplistic 'Demand Respect' authoritarian diatribes is a lack of understanding of the tools parents need at each developmental stage.
I appreciate your comments about commitment, consistency and common sense but this is too vague. I also appreciate you trying to help other parents by talking to them. It's really important we acknowledge 'it takes a village to raise a child'. However, we have to connect the dots on this and say, 'it takes a village to also raise a criminal'.
Read my post on oppression and the 'ism' known as adultism. I want to give you information that will enlighten your philosophy in the same way you want to help other parents. My intent is not to disrespect you but to erect a dialogue that not only examines the mechanics of raising children but looks at our interactions with them both emotionally and physically.
The focus never had to be on disciplinary problems as my husband and I perceived our children's actions as exploratory, you know, like they were looking for understanding of their emotions and or interactions with others and their environment. Children need a million frames of reference for EVERYTHING. You could say our philosophy had some roots in buddhism. Buddhism believes every child has a wise soul and it is the parents job to help the child authenticate the uniqueness of their character and reflect the nature of this truth. In other words, every thought word and action we take with our child strives to attain harmony and balance through cultivating emotional safety and building respect through reflective dialogue.....better known as 'equitable listening'.
Christianity espouses these same beliefs but uses a different language. The 'spare the rod and spoil the child' idea is a reflection of the sociological pressures and philosophical beliefs of the people at the time, not a reflection of something Jesus said or did. He never struck anyone. He did throw a few infamous fits ie; the exchange of money in the sanctity of the church put him over the edge!
Children's fits are no different? We may judge or perceive them as out of control when it is just a less sophisticated way of telling their parents something when they don't feel like they are being heard?! In fact, throwing fits is something grown-ups do in front of their children quite often when they don't feel heard or are having trouble articulating the what's, why's and how's of their emotions and/or frustrations.
The emotional pyramid works like this: If you are sad, worried or frustrated and your parent doesn't acknowledge this, or worse punishes you, you become afraid. If the child's fear isn't acknowledged, or worse, punished the child becomes angry and acts out. A lot of kids will get frozen in the fear part of the emotional pyramid and withdraw having learned nothing, except to be afraid of their emotions. This results in an emotionally undeveloped child. If a child is emotionally stunted, it will effect their intelligence and choices later in life. I call this the 'duh-factor'. The child who proceeds to acting out might be dealt with by ignoring them at the least and physical abuse at the worst. Beware, as physical abuse often results in having to use two-by-fours by the time your child becomes and adolescent, especially if your child has a strong 'will'. The murder rate has gone up with children killing their parents during adolescence. The result: People have only learned they will be abused in some way when they are dealing with conflicted and/or complex emotions. The 'duh-factor' illuminates why Johnny grows up to be figuratively impotent in his life. There is nothing more sad than a distracted, numbed-out, emotionally retarded individual.
Tons of people don't understand how to use reflective dialogue to resolve conflict. Our world-body-politic still, obviously, struggles with this. This is not lost on our youth. They see the hippocracy.
A lot of parents don't realize they are modeling poor communication skills and haven't done any self-examination. It is amazing to watch a family transform when they JUST begin to listen to each other.
I work with at-risk-youth doing high-risk-art. Creativity is also an under-developed resource. I do workshops to empower creativity in ALL people as it is an inherent human quality.
We all have to begin to understand the rather over-used but profound saying, 'be the change you wish to see in the world'. Compassion toward all human beings and their situations is a 'priceless' commodity that is completely under-recognized and under-valued........the 'learning-curve' is an infinite process for ALL of us......let's start connecting the dots-this isn't rocket science.

Carolyn - posted on 02/19/2011

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Man O Man, could not have said it any better. I totally agree with you. When my kids were little, I was voted the strict mom by my family. I am the only one who's kids don't have a bunch of issues going on. Directly related to up bringing. I was not the friend, they had some of those. I was the parent, when my kids would say, so & so's mom lets them do it. I would reply, I am not so & so's mom & if I were they would have the same rule as you do. Just because they do it does not mean you can too.
I have recently became a grandmother, I started training my grandson @ 9 mo old to go potty. He now @ 1yr, taps on the bathroom door when he needs to go. I tell you, I think it's a combination of lack of knowledge & lack of young parents wanting to be told what to do. Even though they don't know what to do. Some where along the lines of generations the respect for parenting & respect of our elders was lost. Some of those parents need to go back & apologize to their parents. Suck up their pride & get it done right by asking for help. It is plain to me that watching children whom through fits in public or anywhere are showing their lack of respect for that parent. My children, at any age could take anywhere. I often had my nephews with me to go rent video games for a sleep over. People would say how do you get them to listen like that. My response was, I demand respect, so I expect it in return. If anything were to happen that was not acceptable we all leave with nothing & go home. No acting out, no hitting, no yelling just mutual respect for good behavior. It really works when you show them at home, what is acceptable. That way when you go in public you do not have to worry about any bad behavior. I am proud of both of my children, now productive adults & leading great individual lives. A lot of parents can't wait for the child to go to daycare so they don't have to deal with them. One reason I think is they don't know how & do not want to ask. Afraid mostly of how they might be perceived as parents. Often at my Center, parents would say how do you get all of them to listen. I say, I just ask & expect it of them. They were blown away. I hope more moms, if they need should ask, if not family a professional for tips even. You would be surprised on the response they would get. I love kids & have spent most of my adult years caring for them. I have a great respect for them & parents who were respectful enough to ask for help when needed. Wish more would do that. It's not as hard as some believe, just takes commitment & consistency & common sense most of the time. Not every one is born with common sense so, some may need just a little guidance. A big eye opener was, at one daycare I worked at. This one child would actually make his own bottles, allowed to put them in the daycare fridgerator he was 4 years old. Come on really, she said, he would through a huge fit if she didn't let him. REALLY! Unbelievable she actually was afraid of him, a big cry for help, would not accept any. That was a huge sign that there was more going on. Mom did not want to seek any help for her issues. She had a long road ahead & no idea how to help herself or that child? I'm sorry for ranting it seems to me, that if someone knew more & wanted to help you would at least try to listen to them. But some parents don't want to hear that their child is not perfect or worse needs professional help with insecurities within the home. I would not want to be the Kindergarden Teacher, when the parent walks in and says where is your fridg. for my sons bottles? OMG!

Denise Renee - posted on 02/19/2011

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I have to say that I disagree with you on the "dummy" as you call it. I feel that all children need a sense of security and for some it maybe a pacifier. Also, I think that you are being very judgemental. All children learn at their own pace, no two children are alike. So, take that into consideration before we all get judgemental.

Hijirah - posted on 02/18/2011

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Are you kidding? You are not a bitch at all.....feel free to let it all hang out here woman!!

Hijirah - posted on 02/18/2011

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I just sent you a private message......hope I am not being too forward. I was just curious....your general thoughts are much appreciated:) I am glad to know you are on the front lines of society as a teacher.....you are way ahead of the game because you obviously 'get it'......you have one of the toughest jobs in the world, as you know:)

Rae - posted on 02/18/2011

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Thank-you Hijirah, it does mean alot XXX. Its just at the moment i seem to have two emotions, anger (fuck you syndrome) and sadness (crying at you). I dont know why i am a bitch but just am. lol

Charlie - posted on 02/18/2011

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Do I have to pick pieces of your posts ? :)

I actually felt joyous reading your thoughts they are everything I have come to believe and have learned in my short years as a teacher then parent .
You express what I wish to only in a more poignant way , I just found myself nodding and smiling along as I read .

Hijirah - posted on 02/18/2011

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Oh and Rae don't ever feel like you have to apologize for what you are going through......I have been horribly sick for six years and there is something about suffering which amplifies the 'learning curve'.....what you know because of your experience is PRICELESS!!

Hijirah - posted on 02/18/2011

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Dear Loureen tell me what struck you the most about my two comments? I am hoping to speak from a place of compassion, wisdom and integrity (with a little comedy thrown in for good measure)......thanks in advance:)

Rae - posted on 02/18/2011

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i know what you are saying Cim and i shouldnt take it personally BUT just want to say my son has tubes from his kidney to his nappy, there is no way in hell i can get him potty trained and he does suck a dummy, I really dont care if he does, i know he wont have the dummy when he starts school and even if he does have it then.....@#$% it he has nearly died that many times and been in hospital more than out of it, i just dont care.... a dummy is nothing compared to what he has been through. Sorry if I am taking this out on you but just over the stupid fucking comments i got today in the shops EDIT sorry everyone, i wont delete what i wrote but just having a really really bad day...sorry Cim

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