abortion and where do you stand .

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/01/2012 ( 800 moms have responded )

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I'm pro-choice. I don't really understand how anyone would think they have a right to force a woman to remain pregnant or to deny her the right to make her own choice. I'm not pro-abortion either if I was then I wouldn't have children that I carried and gave birth to. Even when abortion was illegal there still were abortions , so what's the point in making it illegal?

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Denikka - posted on 11/01/2012

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Holly, your link doesn't work.

That being said, most of the sites against abortion are pretty biased. They use the most graphic images they can find as shock value, and many of the pictures used, especially when it's a *late term* baby, are NOT of aborted babies, but of miscarried ones.

The reason for this is because getting a late term abortion, after 20 weeks, is very difficult. There are VERY few doctors who will perform them in North America (Canada AND the US), and in many places it's illegal. Less than 12% of abortions are gotten at later than 13 weeks. And of that 12%, 1/3 of those are gotten by teenagers,, for various reasons.

Less than 2% of abortions are gotten later than 21 weeks (what is called late term abortions) and MOST of those cases are limited to sever medical difficulties (severe abnormalities in the fetus or extreme health risk to the mother).



At 12 weeks, the fetus is less than 6cm (3inches) long. At that point, they still look fairly alien and are just starting any kind of muscle development. Research indicates that a fetus probably doesn't even feel pain until closer to the 20 weeks mark, although it's been said that it's later (24 weeks) and it's also been said younger (even as early as 12 weeks).

A natal care unit will usually not even provide care before 26 weeks gestation, and as far as I know, not at all before 23 weeks.

Until that point, where it's able to survive outside the womb, the fetus really is nothing but a parasite, unable to survive without its *host*. It's not much more than POTENTIAL. Just as every month, a woman's egg, or every single day a man's sperm, has the potential to create a full fledged person.

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/03/2012

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Chelsea Duarte - posted 2 hours ago

I am also a person who is compassionate . I am compassionate to children and also to women . I resent the insinuation that people who don't view a fetus in the same way you do are insensitive.







KAYLEIGH Reeves - posted 1 hour ago - what does infertility have to do with abortion? I am infertile because when I decided ( against medical advice from several Doctors) to carry my last pregnancy ( she past the day after she was born) an emergency arose in which she needed to be delivered immediately and my uterus was damaged . - That has nothing to do with any other women and my infertility does not make another women responsible for providing me and my husband with a child. - ALSO There are tens of thousands of children available , cleared for and waiting to be adopted right now in the US Foster care system .







CHELSEA Duarte - posted 1 hour ago ( part 2 ) - If my Mother had aborted me , I wouldn't know , I would not have had the ability to know I was now not going to live.



I also didn't have a "Right" to expect to be carried and born , it was a gift and I was lucky since so many pregnancies spontaneously abort all by themselves. No conceived fetus has a "Right" to expect anything (Nor do they have the ability to "expect" ) until they are viable/born and then they have rights , to bad so many born children are denied those basic human rights and are instead abused , neglected etc . Where is the outrage for all of those children ?

I can understand and respect your views,but I have a difficult time respecting a person who resorts to calling people with different opinions ignorant.

Denikka - posted on 11/01/2012

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I'm pro-choice.

You're right. There have always been abortions and there always will be. It's not a matter of IF it will be done, it's a matter of how safe it'll be for the woman getting it done.



For myself, I don't know if I could go through with it, but it makes me feel better that it's a choice that I'M allowed to make.



There will always be those who feel they have the right to meddle in, or even control, other peoples lives. Whether they believe that they know better, that their god has told them so, or whatever reason they can come up with, there will always be those people.

*Killing children* or even *potential children* is always going to bother people. It's a tender spot for anyone who has had or has wanted to have children.

And in a way, I think it's kind of a good thing. If there ever comes a day when it's an easy decision to make and no one speaks out against it, no one is outraged by the *death* of something THEY believe to be a baby, that'll be a sad day for the whole world. We'll all have lost something very precious.

Jodi - posted on 11/04/2012

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The way I see it, the main difference between someone who is pro-choice and pro-life is that those who are pro-life believe their views should be imposed on others. No-one who is pro-choice would ever make you have an abortion. We wouldn't even encourage you to do so. Not even a little bit. Mostly, we wouldn't choose it for ourselves, because it also goes against what we believe for ourselves. But someone who is pro-life wants to make it law that everyone must carry their baby to term regardless of the situation or their beliefs, and that their beliefs conquer all.



I have total respect for those who have religious beliefs that mean they must speak out against it as a sin and an atrocity. You are absolutely entitled to that view. Mostly, I actually agree with you. But speaking out against it, and making it illegal are two different things. Everyone is entitled to free speech (to a degree anyway, but that's a different issue). Your free speech does not encroach on my rights, and mine does not encroach on yours. But taking your faith and beliefs and making sure that legislation reflects those regardless of anyone's else's beliefs, is when it crosses the line.



*** I am using the term *your* in the general term, not specifically directing my post at any individual in particular.

Lillie - posted on 11/03/2012

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I am totally against abortion. I am an adult now but I was a result of rape. I didn't ask to be concieved and I am so glad that my mother did not abort me or give me up for adoption.

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Jazmyne - posted on 11/23/2012

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Just for the sake of making this an even 800, Is anyone else getting a headache from reading half these posts? (And before anyone jumps down my throat, I understand that it is my option to read this I was making a light- hearted joke, although I was serious when I said I wanted to make this an even number)

Lauren - posted on 11/23/2012

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Chelsea, it is good that you're passionate about what you believe in. There is a difference between being passionate & lashing out if someone disagrees with you though. It's fine to have different views, it's what makes this Country great. You wouldn't like it if we forced you to accept our views, so you must allow those with different views the same respect. As in, if a woman doesn't want to carry a pregnancy to term, who are we to say what she must or must not do? Lastly, what would you have done regarding the woman in Ireland? Do you agree doctors should have waited to remove the dying fetus while it still had a heart beat? Which caused the Mother to die as well? Or would you have supported removing it to let her live? That's the bigger question here.

Chelsea - posted on 11/23/2012

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Perhaps some of you may be right about me being too defensive and taking this issue to personally, but for arguments sake, I really don't think I have. I may have said things in a way I didn't mean because I was angry but my anger was never directed at any one of you. Rather, my anger is directed at this whole idea that one person should be able to determine the fate of another person. So please forgive me for saying I was feeling attacked, but that is how I felt at that moment and I can't help my own feelings and predjudices, just as any of you can't help yours. After all, none of us are perfect.



Regardless of whether or not you believe this person is living or not, I believe it is. After all a fetus is a potential life, and doesn't that in itself, make it a life? Not to mention science proves that an embryo already has a heatbeat, plus all the DNA it needs to be considered a life, although many doctors may argue differently. The reason I do take this issue so personally is that I was once one of those fetuses, whose life was hanging on balance of someone elses decision. If not for my mother believing in the value of life, and standing up to that doctor, I may not have been alive today, and that is why this issue has such a profoundly deep impact on me. My right to live was nearly taken away even before I had the oppurtunity to decide for myself. So you can argue the mom's right to suspend a fetus, but in my mind this will never make sense, because I can't take my feelings out of it, knowing that if circumstances had been different, I would never have had the right to live, and if I had lived through it, just as this Gianna Jessen girl did, and suffered the same consequences, that I may have hated my mother to this day for trying to destroy my life, based on a decision that she made for herself.



Please believe me when I say that I have tried to look at this issue as objectively as I possibly can, but the more I do, the more I am convinced that each life is precious and that the decision of who lives and dies is not, nor ever will be in our hands, but Gods. I do believe that people have free will and won't always choose the option that I think is right, but I do have a voice for a reason, and this does not mean that I will ever stop defending my view. I am a person with a right and this is a free country apparently so why should I not have the right to get a little "too emotional" about things i'm passionate about?



I have been accused of putting myself "on a pedestal" but please believe me that this was never my intention, and I seriously doubt that any of you would like to be accused of something like that, so if you want to fight fair, here's your chance. But please do not put words in my mouth, nor make any more unfounded accusations against me. I would like the right to be heard objectively as well. So now, please allow me to set the record straight. I am a person who believes that each person is equal: whether male or female, gay or straight, pro- choice or pro- life, human or fetus; and that every individual is worthy of the love, respect, and patience. This does not mean I agree with you, nor do I have to, for I am, after- all a person with a free- will, just as any of you are, and as a person with free will, I will never stop fighting for what I believe in. In our consitution it says that we each have the freedom to speak and not be judged for it, just as the law says that murder is wrong but, so does that mean there are ever not going to be laws to keep us from going into total chaos? Probably not, and if so, I don't want to be here when it does. We have laws for a reason, just as I could argue that God himself, has laws for a reason. God's reason, as well as the law's is to keep people from getting hurt. But, it should never hurt a woman to have a baby. After all, it was her decision to choose the behavior that would get her into that situation to begin with. I believe that life is a precious thing and that no baby is ever an "accident," and that the reason they are even concieved in the first place is that God willed them to be. And you can argue with that all you want, but it won't make it any less true in my mind, nor the mind of countless individuals who are pro- life as well. Pro- life, for me isn't about taking anybody's rights away at all, but to speak for those who have no voice for themselves, and whose life could be snuffed out before they even come into the world.



I think that it is just so sad that I am being accused of being too emotional, when so many people in this world are way not emotional enough about things. If people were less cold, I believe we would have a better world to live in. It saddens me that we have been programmed to believe that an embryo is not a baby, that there's not enough hope left in us to believe that a life isn't precious enough to support, or that each person's life is not of value enough to fight for, and it literally breaks my heart to know that so many precious babys go without haveing that choice at all.



So, no! I don't believe that I am being "too emotional" about this or taking this topic "too personally" at all. I may have not used the right words to say what I was thinking, and I apologize sincerely if I have hurt anyone's feelings because that was never my intention at all. My intention is simply to provide a different view point for you. In the end, it's your choice whether you take it or leave it, but at least I can sleep soundly, knowing that I did that best that I could to fight for life. I never meant to judge or demean any of you and please forgive me if I made you feel that way. Like, I said, I am not perfect, and sometimes my words can hurt as well. Also, I'm sure this is full of spelling and grammatical errors right now, but I'm a little too tired to care right now so plaese forgive me for that as well.



Sincerely and in love, Chelsea

Jessica - posted on 11/20/2012

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I'm Not For Abortions nor against it.... Its a woman's Choice... I say this because I was raised up to believe It was wrong an I do agree that it is wrong BUT.... I think if a woman decides that she wants to live with what she has chosen by having a abortion then so be it that's something she has to answer for...

I went through a fight with my daughters "Sperm doner" when I told him I was Pregnant.. Him an his mother sat me down wanting to try an "TALK" me into having a abortion because WE WERE TOO YOUNG.... I Nicely looked at both of them an said I was Old enough to lay down an I knew the possibility of getting pregnant an so did he... I'm a big girl I can handle my choices to have laid down an got pregnant.....Now My mother was ready to hurt both of them I went with what my heart wanted which was to have my daughter... I don't regret it for one second.... I have People in my extended family who has decided to have a abortion and I see what they have to go through emotional an mental with what their choice was. I'm very thankful that I chose what I did... People who chose to have a abortion not only have to live with the fact that they took a life away but they have to deal with that everyday of there life so that's their decision.... So I'm not for Abortions nor am I against it... That's my thoughts on the whole thing!

Yvonne - posted on 11/17/2012

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I am pro-rights...I'm more pro-life for the sake of this discussion, If the world wants to be pro-life then they should get rid of abortion, adoption, and all other options of dropping off at the hospital/fire department etc., because what we are basically saying is that no matter what men are capable of taking care of a baby but women aren't. If a man can "get used to the idea" once the child is born so can girls/women.

But, If the world wants to be pro-choice then both mother and father should have a say in whether the "fetus" arrives in the world and if they can't agree the mother gets final say but would be faced with the decision of raising the child without the father both emotionally and financially. Maybe both would take better care of their reproductive rights before it gets to this point.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/15/2012

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this is what happens when the Church dictates over womens bodies - http://abcnews.go.com/Health/irish-abort...



A 31-year-old woman is dead after doctors in Ireland reportedly refused to give her an abortion as she languished in pain from an ongoing miscarriage.



Even as medically necessary abortions remain a contentious topic on this side of the Atlantic, doctors in the United States said the death was preventable.



"I don't do abortions, I'll tell you right now. ... But I'd have to tell the mother, 'Your baby doesn't have a chance and to save your life, I have to do this,'" said Dr. John Coppes, the medical director at Austin Medical Center-Mayo Health System in Minnesota.

Jitka - posted on 11/14/2012

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At the end of the day, if women want an abortion whether legal or not, they will go ahead and find a way. By making it illegal, we are just creating an unhealthy situation of backstreet money making abortions and ultimately death for a lot of pregnant women. Whether abortion is legal or not, does not alter someone's mind, those who opt to never go down that route would opt for it whether it is legalised or not and visa versa. So i do not understand all the heated arguments about this topic.

Brandy - posted on 11/14/2012

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This is one of the reasons a heartbeat should NOT be the determining factor of life: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/fron...



"Two investigations are under way into the death of a woman who was 17 weeks pregnant, at University Hospital Galway last month.



Savita Halappanavar (31), a dentist, presented with back pain at the hospital on October 21st, was found to be miscarrying, and died of septicaemia a week later.



Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar (34), an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. He says that, having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.



This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.



She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped."



Click the link for the full story. So sad that because religious beliefs were held in a higher regard than the medical field, this woman lost her life. :(

Melissa - posted on 11/13/2012

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Hi ladies,



I wanted to share this debate site (called Debatepedia) with you. It is an excellent site and has tons of topics you can search and research. It has a huge database and many links that extend the debates in a plethora of directions. Some here have expressed an openess to more education and information about this topic. This site is expansive and offers pros and cons on many topics (including abortion issues).



http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index....



Happy blogging! :)

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/10/2012

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Men can make the final choice when they can actually carry the pregnancy. I have heard this argument before about men not having a say but we know that most women have discussed it with their partners and usually have their partners with them on the day of their abortion. Men are not nearlly as affected as a woman by pregnancy or child rearing . As for child rearing women much more often then men bear this responsibility and often much more fully then men . Bottom line is if you allow men the right to stop an abortion will he then also be allowed to insist on an abortion? A woman is in the best position to make this decision and she must be the only one with the right to dictate what happens with her own body.

Denikka - posted on 11/09/2012

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Leslie

Dad's rights are something that I struggle with.

My mother was with a man before she get with my dad. She got pregnant and aborted, all without telling this man anything about it. He found out later and was devastated.



In my situation, when I got pregnant with my first child and, in a panic, I looked at ALL my options, my boyfriend and I sat down and had a long discussion about it all.

What I told him was the if we decided that *I* didn't want the baby and *HE* did, I would carry to term and then sign over my rights. That was an option for me. It's not an option for everyone.



If the father needs to sign off on a woman having an abortion, that brings up a HUGE can of worms. What if the father is difficult to find? What if he's abusive? What if he's controlling? And of course then you have the issue of proving paternity. What if the man she is claiming as the father really isn't, and he makes a choice that the real father wouldn't have made (going either way).

See. HUGE can of worms.



The ONLY time I can honestly see fathers having truly equal parental rights in regards to pregnancy is with the invention of an artificial womb where the fetus can be transplanted. Beyond that, it's the woman's body and her risks that she has to decide if she wants to take them or not.

Lauren - posted on 11/09/2012

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Leslie, do you have specific examples where the woman went through with the abortion even though the father wanted the baby? I think most abortions are actually a result of the father claiming its not his, breaking up with the woman over the pregnancy or simply disappearing because they don't want to deal with it.



Maybe there are a handful of cases like that, but ultimately it's the woman's body. The father participated in the act that caused her to conceive, but that's the extent of his involvement in the pregnancy, so it's her decision.

Leslie - posted on 11/09/2012

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Why don't the dads who want to keep their babies get a say?!?! Abortion is pure SELFISHNESS!!!! It takes a man and a woman to create a baby so the decision should include the father.

Jacquelyn - posted on 11/09/2012

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Agree! I am absolutely against abortion, which is why I won't have one. But gov't shouldn't have the right to tell me or any woman what we can and can't do to our bodies. If that's the case then masturbation(onanism) should also be illegal because you are murdering potential humans. Just think of all the poor defenseless sperm that has been flushed into our aging sewage systems or entered the female body only to end up in her digestive tract.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/09/2012

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Melanie ; It is simply NOT possible for a first trimester fetus to "Feel" , feeling is actually complicated and requires more then what could possibly be developed at that point. (re-posting info ) ; Even though the fetus is now developing areas that will become specific sections of the brain, not until the end of week 5 and into week 6 (usually around forty to forty-three days) does the first electrical brain activity begin to occur. This activity, however, is not coherent activity of the kind that underlies human consciousness, or even the coherent activity seen in a shrimp's nervous system. Just as neural activity is present in clinically BRAIN -DEAD PATIENT patients, early neural activity consists of unorganized neuron firing of a primitive kind. Neuronal activity by itself does not represent integrated behavior......

Lauren - posted on 11/09/2012

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Christine, it's fine that you hold all those beliefs. Based on those, I would recommend you not get an abortion. You cannot force your beliefs onto others who do not share your same views though, which is why abortion is a woman's choice & they have a right to choose. A valid argument against abortion has not yet been made that does not include some religious beliefs.

Brandy - posted on 11/09/2012

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Sorry Christine...you're repeating a load of pro-life propaganda. You're belief is your belief. You want to believe God forbids killing any cells, fine. Don't ever get an abortion. But please don't tell pro-choice people to examine their stance. We have...very thoroughly.



Here's what we examined that maybe you should take a look at:

a) No, a fetus is NOT a baby. You can believe it is...but scientifically and medically it is not. It IS a fetus.



b) No one is killing babies. It is illegal to kill babies, and yes, you would go to jail for it. There is a huge difference between a fetus that is unable to think and feel pain and your next door neighbor, who CAN think and feel pain.



c) The pro-choice stance is about CHOICE. Many pro-choicers would never get an abortion. It has to do with not telling another woman what to do with HER body. Whatever you do with your body is none of anyone else's business. Therefore what I do with mine is also none of anyone's business, including yours.



d) Most women who get abortions are relieved. I'm sure there's some sadness, they may grieve, but that is part of the healing process. Unless a woman is already prone to depression, her feelings after an abortion are not that extreme.



You can pray to whomever you believe in for all those "lost souls" who choose to abort. As long as you don't try to take away a woman's choice, it's all good.

Christine - posted on 11/09/2012

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I am pro-life, meaning I believe that life begins at conception and ends only in natural death. I believe that life is given by God alone and is not ours to kill. This not only applies to unborn babies, yes that is what they are, not merely a fetus and a cluster of cells, but to capital punishment, unjust wars and euthansia. Why is it okay to kill a baby, but if you kill your next door neighbor, you will go to jail? Women need to examine the pro-choice stance...are they really making the choice personally or are they feeling pressure from friends, relatives or by their own partner who refuses to take reponsibilty (how sad). Talk to women who have had abortions, most are extremely saddened by their actions, but they are not out of the reaches of God's mercy. Please pray for our sisters, who we love, regardless of their convictions, God Bless+

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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I would think that if a teen girl or woman is having sex without birth control, chances are high that they probably don't have health care to get it and/or enough money to afford it. Forcing them to jump through additional hoops like extra doctor's visits (going back to a doctor more than once for giving them their list of options & forcing them to wait 24/48 hrs before coming back for the procedure), vaginal ultrasound, or even yes, getting a recommendation from a PCP - all these extra items cost money. To a teen or woman without insurance, it could mean the difference between being able to afford the procedure or not being able to afford it, which is, in a way, limiting their right to choose.

Brandy - posted on 11/07/2012

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"If you fall pregnant with out meaning to, and you don't want to have the baby, it should be that you see your regular Dr, who will look at your reasons for not wanting a baby, whatever they may be, and decide if there are grounds to concent to an abortion, and gives you a reference, which you then take to a clinic."



And what if the doctor decides the reasons aren't good enough and won't consent and give the reference? Then we're right back to taking the choice away from the woman. I agree that scared teens (even scared adults) should know and understand ALL the options...so they truly have a choice and aren't just aborting (or keeping, as the case may be) out of fear. But once a woman (teen or adult) knows her options, it should ultimately be left up to her...not her doctor.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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And I don't believe the decision should be up to the doctor either. The decision should be no-one's but the woman who owns the body. How is allowing the government to make the decision by making it illegal, or allowing the doctor to make the decision, choice?

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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"It's a fact that in the UK teem girls are sexually active with out using birth control because abortion is an option. "



I'd be interested on where that information is, that the reason teen girls have sex without birth control is because they can always have an abortion if they get knocked up. I guess I find it very difficult to believe that teenage girls sit there and think "Oh, what the fuck, I'll just have sex because I can always have an abortion if I get pregnant".

Kylie - posted on 11/07/2012

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Very well said Brandy.



It should be the women's choice.



However I think that should have to be agreed with by a doctor. It's a fact that in the UK teem girls are sexually active with out using birth control because abortion is an option.



If you fall pregnant with out meaning to, and you don't want to have the baby, it should be that you see your regular Dr, who will look at your reasons for not wanting a baby, whatever they may be, and decide if there are grounds to concent to an abortion, and gives you a reference, which you then take to a clinic.



This means that only women who have thought it through, and know all the risks arrive at a clinic, not scared girls who feel they are out of options.

Brandy - posted on 11/07/2012

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Thanks Jodi...I was trying to figure out how to say nicely what you said. And I agree with you, too, Little Miss - what we define as the "least harm" in regards to an abortion depends on the situation. Which is why, Melanie, that no matter what you choose to believe, the choice whether to abort or not must remain with the woman and not legislated by the government.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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@ Melanie



Neurological functioning does not equal feeling pain. We've discussed that. No-one is denying there may be neurological functioning at an earlier time. This is merely electrical activity of SOME sort in the brain, in particular, those needed to take on the automatic organ functions of the body (ie, the neural pathways that make sure the heart beats), not the operation of the neural pathways to the various senses. The ACTUAL pain receptors, and the neural pathways to these receptors need to be developed in order for pain to be felt. And the studies show that NONE of this occurs until at some point between 18 and 26 weeks. This has been studied extensively, and I'm sorry, but your reasoning doesn't stand up.



It is only YOUR truth that the fetus is life in the first trimester. Not everyone's truth and not THE truth.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Following your logic is like hitting my head against the wall. We started out with a topic of whether there are proabortion people in this world. All of a sudden we're debating whether *I* am proabortion, prolife or prochoice? That's hilarious! My definition of proabortion does not change what I am, which has always been prochoice.



Yes thank you for copying & pasting my quote. I have no idea how I would have known what I said if you hadn't done that for me! Yes I did say that a person who goes through with abortion is proabortion. To me the very definition of pro anything is for it, accepting of it, willing to have it. So my thought process was if you have an abortion, you are for abortion, you accept abortion, you're willing to have an abortion. There are people like that in this world.



Jodi brought up Urban Dictionary's version. People that advocate abortion as a means of population control. I agree that sounds like another good definition. I also did list those types of people as another group I considered proabortion in a previous comment as well, I had brought up the doctor I read about who justified his work performing abortions as a method for controlling the population so to accept that definition is not that far off from what I said originally. There are people out there like that too.



Last but not least, I brought up Merriam Webster's definition to show that our decision to stray from the technical definition is based solely on our beliefs & differences in opinion & therefore I felt it was unfair to say anyone's difference in opinion is right or wrong, it's opinion which is acceptable to the individual that has that opinion & that is all that matters. There are most certainly people out there by this definition.



I most certainly do not go around calling anyone anything other than what they call themselves. This entire debate started because a prolife person talked about proabortion people, I said I'm prochoice, NOT proabortion, but a proabortion person would say a fetus is not a baby & I would agree with them on that point, although I may not agree with them on other things. I did not call you, or anyone in this thread, or anyone that's prochoice proabortion. I spoke hypothetically about some person, somewhere that thinks they are proabortion & how we would not agree on many things except the fetus issue. You were not content to allow my comment to be hypothetical in nature, you wanted me to nail down just exactly WHO this hypothetical proabortion person is cause you said originally they don't exist.



Personally for the purpose of this debate, they're hypothetical. There is no specific person I have in mind when I say it, nor do I or will I go around labeling anyone as proabortion now or in the future. Nevertheless, by my previous definition, by Urban Dictionary or Merriam Webster, they do exist hypothetically & in reality. I've maintained that all along & I still do.



It has absolutely no bearing on you or anyone in this thread, no bearing on what I would refer to you or anyone in this thread as & it definitely has no bearing on what I identify myself as. That's where you keep losing me, when you keep trying to argue that I'm prolife. I most certainly am not. You can call me Smarty Pants all you like, but your name is "can't be wrong" & now we see why. Despite that, I'm not looking for right or wrong, unlike you. All I wanted to make clear was that there was no reason to jump all over me for saying proabortion people do exist, when in fact they do & please save all your debating for someone that truly has a different stance than you do. You keep wanting to label me prolife so you can argue with me. I'm prochoice, we actually agree on a lot more than you think.



As far as whether you want anymore of my clarifications, this is an open thread. I can continue to express my views all night long. That's my freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom to believe what I choose & the free Internet to keep broadcasting my views to others. You are free not to read my post if you don't want to hear anymore of my views. Oh how I love my freedoms..trolololol! :D

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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@ melanie " We apply the precautionary principle – choose the course of action that does the least harm. Which is most harmful, to take a human life (by one side’s claim) or to deny a right (by the other side’s claim)?"



I would just like to add to your statement that specific part of "doing the least harm". That can mean many things. For the women having the baby it could mean giving up school, college, a life, family, friends, youth (young age) to have that baby. Or for the baby being born, it could mean abuse, neglect, etc. Just adding that having the abortion could be part of the "least harm" from a long term perspective also. I really appreciate your sentiment though.

Melanie - posted on 11/07/2012

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It seems I’ve had a number of responses to my first post, and they started with the claim that I was emotional and without backing to support my statements. I have done my research, though, and this is a highly emotional issue on both sides.

As for maternal regret of having and abortion and abortion’s link to breast cancer (not to mention a slew of other arguments), both sides have scientific research, and both sides attempt to discount the research of the other. What do we, as a society, do in the case when the science isn’t clear (or clearly agreed upon)? We apply the precautionary principle – choose the course of action that does the least harm. Which is most harmful, to take a human life (by one side’s claim) or to deny a right (by the other side’s claim)? The Constitution answers that up front by the order it places on rights: first life, then liberty and then the pursuit of happiness.



As for what a fetus can feel and when it has cardiological and neurological functions, here are some (as best I can tell) unbiased references:



http://www.ehd.org/dev_article_unit4.php

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/duringp...

http://birthpsychology.com/free-article/...



These and many other references all point to the same truths: fetal heartbeat begins less than halfway through the first trimester and neurological functioning, including response to stimulus (feeling pain) occurs within the first trimester. Even first trimester abortions cause pain and stop a beating heart.



This leaves one final point. What if you’ve had an abortion? (…or encouraged someone to have one?) I offer my apologies if my previous comments seemed harsh or stirred up feelings of guilt – it is not my place to judge. That right only belongs to God, who placed it in the hands of Jesus. He offers forgiveness and healing to those who turn from their sins and turn to Him for salvation (and His followers should do the same, though at times we fail). For those who repent, He does not condemn, but instead tells us “Go, and sin no more.” That is the true (freedom of) choice – the freedom to choose (eternal) life.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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OMG this is actually getting sad and pathetic. I admitted the word had different specific meaning from what I consider it to mean. I know what it means. But somehow you are twisting this into thinking your definition is even close to right. it is NOT. Go read your own damned posts. You are like continuously hitting my head into a brick wall. Getting no where with either. By YOUR DEFINITION OF PRO ABORTION YOU ARE PRO LIFE. BY THE DICTIONARIES DEFINITION YOU ARE PRO-ABORTION. CALL YOURSELF WHAT YOU WANT. BUT I AM STANDING WITH CALLING MYSELF PRO-CHOICE BECAUSE THE WEIGHT OF CALLING SOMEONE PRO-ABORTION IS NOT SIMPLY SAYING PRO-CHOICE. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, I DON'T GIVE A SHIT. GO AROUND CALLING PEOPLE PRO ABORTION AND SEE WHAT KIND OF RESPONSE YOU GET IN REAL LIFE. THEN TELL THEM YOUR DEFINITION AND SEE THEM LAUGH AND SCRATCH THEIR HEADS IN CONFUSION.



That felt really good to yell. I am done with you cause clearly for you this is YOU are only wanting to hear the "im right I'm right". It is getting old and sad. I had read that definition a while ago, and I still would not call people pro-abortion. It was started in the 70's or something like that, and it really has a different meaning now. Not YOUR meaning, but if you cannot accept that, really...truly....I don't care. Now....after that rant, I can truly say I have no interest in any more of your clarifications. You can either talk with me about a different perspective of abortion, or don't talk to me at all. You can keep arguing with yourself from here on out about what "pro-abortion" means. just to remind you, this is your quote, and you did define it:



"

Lauren Bradbury

Smarty Pants



Lauren Bradbury - posted 3 hours ago



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You think proabortion is someone out there actively promoting it, recruiting people to have abortions one could say. I also believe that you, or perhaps someone else, said that proabortion person would mean that they want EVERY woman that gets pregnant to have an abortion. I don't agree with that.



Proabortion to me, means you believe in it, or in other words, you would have an abortion if you were faced with making the choice personally. So yes, at the time you are going through the procedure & immediately following it, you are proabortion. Perhaps you felt guilty afterward & you say to yourself, you would NEVER do that again, well then now you are prochoice. People change their minds all the time, so being proabortion for 24 hours, doesn't label you for life. "

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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I did not define it when I said it. I said there are proabortion people in this world. You said no there are not. I said yes there are. You defined your version of proabortion & I said I don't agree with your definition, you asked me to define it & then we squabbled over definition.



It does not change the fact that as an undefined word, proabortion people exist. They exist whether you use my version, whether you use Merriam Webster Version, they exist whether you use Urban Dictionary version. No matter which version you use to define it, I always said they exist & I'm still correct. Sorry you don't like to concede victory to anyone but yourself despite the fact I conceded to Jodi that I might accept Urban Dictionary's definition & change my view point on what exactly proabortion means to me.



That's the difference. I prefer to hear rational argument & possibly change my stance. You just want to be right at all costs. "I'm right! I'm right!"



You said proabortion people don't exist before we even officially defined it. They exist in all definitions. *I* was right about that.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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" but I hold true to my original argument that somewhere in this great big wide world there is a person or people out there that are actually proabortion, no matter how rare they may be. :) "





Yes but not for the definition YOU defined Lauren. IT does not mean ANYTHING you were saying. Soooooooo....keep pushing the issue to somehow mean you were right. sorry, you were not.



Edited for clarity.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Thanks Jodi that's good enough for me. I'll give the urban dictionary version more thought & if I accept that version then yes, I would accept that the woman or doctor is not necessarily proabortion.



BUT this entire conversation started because the argument was posed that there are no such thing as a proabortion people anywhere. We've gotten side tracked over the definition. I might accept the Urban Dictionary definition, but I hold true to my original argument that somewhere in this great big wide world there is a person or people out there that are actually proabortion, no matter how rare they may be. :)

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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I will never say there are no proabortion people.....I've heard stories out of China. BUT I don't believe it is a common view, and I don't believe that just because a doctor performs an abortion means he is proabortion or that just because a woman has an abortion makes her proabortion. I do think the term proabortion is thrown around inappropriately and without consideration to the differences :) I never said your beliefs are wrong. I said *I think* they are wrong. And that is my opinion. But I understand that they aren't wrong to you. And you are also entitled to that opinion.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Jodi, I came upstairs to check my email & you manage to suck me back in one last time.



I agree with my definition of proabortion as previously stated. Maybe, just maybe, I'll accept the urban dictionary version & assume proabortion is only people who advocate it to limit population. I've seen several people use foster home over crowding in this thread though as a reason why abortion could be supported, so would that make them proabortion?



Either way, the simple fact you've found a definition of proabortion negates the original argument Little Miss had which was there are NO proabortion people anywhere at all. There are people that agree with abortion for that reason. I've read about them in articles & blogs. I'm quite certain they exist.



The ONLY reason I listed the Dictionary definition is because so many people disagreed with mine & said NO ONE anywhere actually is, then I thought I'd whip out the true technical definition. Everyone here prefers facts rather than opinion. So the fact I presented was technically there are far more proabortion people than you all think at least by dictionary definition.



Do I appreciate it when prolife people say all prochoice people are proabortion? No absolutely not. The way everyone jumped on me for using the word at all, you would think I love the word & I argue prolife. I'm not. I'm just trying to figure out why your beliefs are right and mine are wrong, when they are clearly beliefs, i.e. opinion. We are all stating opinion because the technical definition is different from both of our definitions.



When I talk to a prolife person, I'm very careful to respect their beliefs & simply agree to disagree. That's part of being prochoice, allowing everyone the freedom to believe what they want to believe without interference from anyone else. Not one single person has agreed to just disagree & say they respect my beliefs even though they are different. Some have said I'm allowed to have my own opinion, but they think I'm wrong. I don't see right or wrong, I see different opinions & that's all.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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Lauren, I am not saying the dictionary is wrong, I am saying that in reference to urban understanding and political terminology, as well as common usage, it renders it to a matter of opinion and perspective. I could have put a ton more links up on urban usage of the word. Urban usage WILL eventually become dictionary definition if it becomes commonly accepted and understood, so it is not entirely irrelevant. It happens all the time.



*I* believe you are wrong, and I will not change my stance on that. *MY* understanding and interpretation of pro abortion is not the same as pro choice. My opinion is based on more contemporary usage of the terms. Even YOU admitted earlier that you believe there is a difference. And yet you are showing a dictionary definition that has them as synonymous in order to support your argument. Which is it?

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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This has been interesting to say the least. I presented fact that contradicts your desired definition. You don't agree with mine, so we'll agree to disagree & for right now the only solid evidence I've found regarding the true definition is Merriam Webster which doesn't agree with any of us. I've got things to do other than playing online. Good night for real this time!

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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I'll support Merriam Webster any day over Urban Dictionary.



Urban Dictionary accepts definitions by the masses submitted through their site. I could tell them I want to add a definition for Lauren as "always right" then they'll add it & I can come back with my link to prove to you that according to Urban Dictionary I'm always right. Can't question me now can you? Haha..sure you would accept that!



According to dictionary.com proabortion & prochoice are the same, adjectives.



http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict....



http://m.dictionary.com/d/?q=pro%20abort...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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Pro-abortion means pro-choice...freedom to choose abortion. Peoples view on it means you are actively pushing abortion and advocating for fetuses to be aborted regardless.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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Go ahead and argue the definition to whom it matters then. They will not take your flip-floppy definition. It is to irrational.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Maybe I am. I've looked at three different definitions of proabortion. They all say the same thing. That's the difference between us. I'll admit when I'm mistaken. Technically according to three different online dictionaries I'm proabortion. Though I would support amending the definition. As we've seen here though, agreeing on a new definition would be hard. Probably why it hasn't been changed.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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Dictionary definitions aren't *fact*. They are opinion too. Have you checked ALL the definitions out there? In addition to dictionary definitions, there are political and urban contexts to take into consideration.



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_for...



They are no less accurate. So no, I am not wrong either. I still believe you are. You have given no facts to prove anything, because the fact doesn't exist. It is only your truth. Not mine.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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yeah i know Lauren I looked it up. Then I read through some articles differentiating between the two. And guess whose definition was right in that case? Mine. And your definition doesn't suite either. And by definition you are also pro-abortion...hell you keep trying to tell me you are pro-choice, so by Merriam Dictionary, YOU my dear are pro abortion.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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BTW - Someome posted earlier that you can debate thoughts, feelings & opinions, but you can NOT debate facts.



FACT: Merriam Webster Dictionary defines proabortion as "favoring the legalization of abortion."



So, unless you get that definition changed, you, a person that has an abortion & the doctor that performs it are ALL technically proabortion. That is all. Thank you & good night!



http://i.word.com/idictionary/proabortio...

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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"You are the reason there can not be a reasonable discussion on this topic, but people get worked up & resort to name calling. "



And yes, that WAS a bit rude. But I am not taking it personally. However, I'd actually really appreciate you pointing out where I resorted to name calling. Because that is TOTALLY against the rules of this forum, and I should report myself.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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Lauren "Feel free to focus your attention on prolife people. I'm prochoice. You don't want me to label anyone that has an abortion? You don't get to label me. Thank you. Have a good day. "



If I don't get to label you as pro-life, then you sure as hell don't get to label others as pro-abortion. You cannot have it both ways.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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Oh, okay, so now I have to express my opinion in a particular way to satisfy your view that saying "I think" is rude? Ugh. You don't get to dictate how people express their view. I stated "I think". It really does mean "I think". i.e. my opinion.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/07/2012

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Lauren Bradbury - posted 13 minutes ago



----------------------------------------------



I think you are the one who is coming off badly. I don't care if you want to believe some people are pro-abortion but I don't agree with you . Can we move past it now?

And saying someone "is the reason there can not be reasonable discussion "... is rude.

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