abortion and where do you stand .

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/01/2012 ( 800 moms have responded )

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I'm pro-choice. I don't really understand how anyone would think they have a right to force a woman to remain pregnant or to deny her the right to make her own choice. I'm not pro-abortion either if I was then I wouldn't have children that I carried and gave birth to. Even when abortion was illegal there still were abortions , so what's the point in making it illegal?

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~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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By your definition, I don't think IN MY OPINION that you are truly pro-choice. Not by everything you are spouting that is for sure.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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I'm not being any more nasty than you are. Would you prefer I use your terms?



I think you're wrong. Get over it.



Just let it go, okay?



I've been trying to do that, but you insist on continuing it.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Jodi, I did NOT expressly indicate the entire comment was only directed at you. Little Miss said I'm not prochoice.



And I said there is no right or wrong. Only belief, so yes it's rude to say I think you're wrong. Try I don't agree with you next time.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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**sigh**

Seriously, lady? When I say "I think" you are wrong, that is my belief. I am allowed to express my opinion on that too. Aggressive, demeaning & flat out rude? Right.......because you haven't been.



I am still trying to figure out where I labelled you. Where I said you weren't entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree with you. And I don't have to. And I actually have absolutely no intention of doing so.



That's what I mean when I say "I THINK you were wrong". That really does mean that I disagree with your view, and I am expressing MY opinion. Why are YOU being so aggressive and heated because I disagree with you? Sorry, but you are actually making absolutely no sense now, and are obviously very upset over it. You're certainly being quite nasty.



As I have already stated twice now "I wasn't worked up. I just think you were wrong. I still do. Get over it."

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Get over it. You are wrong.



Thank you for showing my point. Aggressive, demeaning & flat out rude.



You are the reason there can not be a reasonable discussion on this topic, but people get worked up & resort to name calling.



My beliefs are my beliefs. I'm entitled to them. No one said you had to agree with them. I don't personally care whether you do or not. I will still hold onto them & still discuss them with anyone who asks me to further explain them. Because this is completely a BELIEF, there is NO right or wrong. There is only what is right for me.



Feel free to focus your attention on prolife people. I'm prochoice. You don't want me to label anyone that has an abortion? You don't get to label me. Thank you. Have a good day.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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Lauren, just let it go, okay. It has no bearing on the debate. As far as *I* am concerned, your use of the term pro-abortion is wrong. You perceived my response as aggressive. It was NOT an aggressive response on my part. Don't try to tell me why I meant by my post and how I was feeling when I wrote it. Aggressive and heated? No, that was YOUR interpretation.



I am not going to continue this line of debate. As I have already stated once, and I will state again "I wasn't worked up. I just think you were wrong. I still do. Get over it."

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Yes, Jodi, you said why did I need to ram that point home when you already apologized. Though I think it was relatively clear to both of us, that I did not see an apology for misunderstanding what I meant. I saw an apology for you not being thorough in your wording. "Sorry I meant people in this thread only."



The whole ram the point home & who is wrong for assuming ..hmmm??



That was aggressive. Most people would have said, sorry, I misinterpretated what you meant.

You went further with a clearly sarcastic reply that clearly indicated you were aggravated with me & becoming upset at my refusal to agree with you.



It is not solely "my problem." If you continue to approach discussions this way, it will eventually erupt into a full blown fight. Why can't we all agree to disagree? Why must we force our beliefs to be accepted by anyone else & become upset when they don't accept it?



I'm not out there championing for the prochoice movement, so I'm not sure that I'm hurting the cause by using that word.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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And much like Jodi, I think you are wrong. Way WAAY off base wrong.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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Lauren, if that is really what you think, then you are not pro-choice. Pro-choice means you support a womens right to choose. If I were to get preggo tomorrow, I have that choice. It doesn't mean one second I am pro-choice, then if I think I might have an abortion I am pro-abortion. That is a load of crap. Frankly, from everything you have said, in my opinion, you are not pro-choice. You are simply looking to slap different labels on people. My sister DID work in an abortion clinic. She was not PRO-ABORTION! She was proud that she could work in a place that women could go and not be judged for their CHOICE. Pro-abortion, you are talking about countries like China that would abort or kill female fetuses, just because they want to control the masses. Your perspective in my opinion is highly skewed and extremely confusing to the point of a headache trying to decipher your words and meanings.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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I wasn't worked up. I just think you were wrong. I still do. Get over it.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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You think proabortion is someone out there actively promoting it, recruiting people to have abortions one could say. I also believe that you, or perhaps someone else, said that proabortion person would mean that they want EVERY woman that gets pregnant to have an abortion. I don't agree with that.



Proabortion to me, means you believe in it, or in other words, you would have an abortion if you were faced with making the choice personally. So yes, at the time you are going through the procedure & immediately following it, you are proabortion. Perhaps you felt guilty afterward & you say to yourself, you would NEVER do that again, well then now you are prochoice. People change their minds all the time, so being proabortion for 24 hours, doesn't label you for life.



The whole "please know what you're talking about with PP" & "love for you to tell my sister she is proabortion" comments have come across as very emotionally charged, aggressive & ready to pounce should I make the mistake of saying the wrong word & setting you off. Jodi got worked up because I "rammed a point home" though she claimed to have already apologized. All I got out of her comment was she was apologizing for not including the fact she was only defending people in this thread, not necessarily people in the whole world. It's clear that while we may think we are thorough in our written words, we may not be thorough enough. Sometimes without meaning to, certain wording will come across in the wrong manner or as very aggressive. I have found that the manner of the replies to my proabortion comment, are relatively similar to the manner used when speaking to a prolife person on here.



It seems like people have taken the stance that I'm ignorant, lacking facts or just flat out wrong. That's not possible since we are debating our own personal definition of a term. We have the right to believe in what we choose to believe in & I don't believe your version of proabortion is the correct definition.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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"I've received two very aggressive, heated replies in regards to that word. "



Aggressive and heated? You are reading WAY too much into my reply. It was neither heated nor aggressive, simply a disagreement with your use of the term. If you perceived it as aggressive and heated, then that is your problem.



I just personally don't think you help a pro-choice cause by using the term proabortion the way you did in that particular comment.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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Lauren, I actually have been calm and rational about this discussion and not charged up. i will admit your pro-abortion stuff is getting my hackles up. I have been through one after another of your posts, and from what I gather you see people who want women to have the choice as prochoice. But dare she make the choice and she is pro abortion.



"distinguish the difference between proabortion & prochoice in my defense of prochoice when replying to a prolife person here on this thread. "



If there is a difference in what I just said, please clarify, because I totally disagree if that is what you are claiming.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Little Miss - I certainly hope you weren't responding to me about all Planned Parenthoods providing abortions? I NEVER said they do. IN FACT, one of my first comments a few pages back said most PP in my state don't provide abortions, that when I used to go there for STD testing, I never even knew PP provided abortion at all.



That's why I hope you weren't addressing me when you said to learn these things before I say anything...

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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And I said, MOST doctors at facilities like Planned Parenthood which is not generally in the business for profit, but to provide help to low income women, yes, you are correct.



However, there are doctors that do it for the money, and/or for their view that they are controlling the worlds population & stopping overcrowding. These doctors, one of which was chronicled in a long article I read about a year ago, explaining why he provides abortions & why there should be more of them, are proabortion. There are proabortion people in this world.



It all goes back to my original comment. I do not agree with proabortion people on all of their beliefs, such as abortion is important to control the population, but they would argue the a fetus is not a baby & I would agree with that.



The issue, like I said, is you all don't like it when a prolife person calls you proabortion. Because of that, you feel the need to correct my use of the word. You have all misinterpreted my use of the word though. I can't believe I'm having this debate though, in which you all are effectively putting me in the prolife camp & pushing me to that side because I used the term proabortion. I'm prochoice. I used proabortion mostly to distinguish the difference between proabortion & prochoice in my defense of prochoice when replying to a prolife person here on this thread.



I've received two very aggressive, heated replies in regards to that word. It says to me that you are so emotionally charged up over this that you're ready to debate anyone, including people that are on your side. I have no problem with people who hold different opinions than I do. The difference is I don't get worked up over it & go into attack mode over it. Everyone needs to take a deep breath & calm down. Then save the defensive comments for people that attack you & call you things like murderer because they're prolife & you're prochoice. I'm on your side guys. No need to rip me apart because I used a word you don't like. I invoke my right to freedom of speech to continue to use the word when I deem appropriate. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but you must respect my beliefs & at least understand them enough that you're not accusing me of something I did not do (i.e. calling prochoice people proabortion, cause that's not what I did).

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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And NO not all planned parenthoods provide abortions. Seriously ladies, before you say these things PLEASE know what you are talking about.



Planned parenthoods provide womens health care....they also work with insurances and give low cost care to those that need it. This includes pap smears, birth control, std testing, and hell I even went in once for a fucking UTI.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/07/2012

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Carol Morrisey



Also I don't know any pro-choice person who thinks a fetus is "Part of her body" like say her gallbladder. Women know damn well that a fetus is inside of her but not an actual body part.



right on Planned Parenthoods web site and in their printed literature they lay out ALL the options -



If you are pregnant, you have three options to think about — abortion, adoption, and parenting. Reading and learning about each one will help you get the facts and may help you decide. It may also help to weigh the benefits and risks of each one. Think about which benefits and risks are most important to you. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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No...they BELIEVE that abortion may be the right choice for that specific women. it does not make them proabortion.



I have known people who have worked in abortion clinics before. One of those people? My sister. I would LOVE for you to tell her yourself she is "pro-abortion". Oh man...that would require a bowl of popcorn and a nice cushy seat for a long lecture....and yelling.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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Little Miss - I NEVER said prochoice people are proabortion. I distinctly said there are THREE types of people, prolife, prochoice & proabortion. In this thread we have prochoice people commenting versus prolife people. I'm prochoice.



We will agree to DISAGREE on the meaning of proabortion & whether there are, in fact, proabortion people in this world. I know for a fact that there are. First of all, I believe proabortion is people that believe in abortion. A person at the time they choose to have an abortion is proabortion. They have decided they believe in abortion & they are choosing the procedure. Doctors & nurses that perform the abortion are proabortion to me. Again, not because they are out actively recruiting people for the procedure, but because they believe in it enough to perform them. Let's be honest here, it is NOT hard at all, to find a job in the medical field. They do NOT take these jobs because there's nothing else & they have to settle for whatever they can get. They believe in abortion & they choose to perform them. There may be some people who are simply in the field because they care about woman & women's rights & want to help women facing the difficult decision yes, but there are also some that choose the industry because it is a lucrative industry. There are many procedures performed annually & probably not all that many people that feel comfortable enough with it to perform abortions, so it guarantees that if you provide abortions, you will have no shortage of patients.



Planned Parenthood provides abortions as part of their regular women's care & health, so yes, a doctor that works for them may truly be there just to help women & may not necessarily be proabortion. There are private doctors that only perform them because of the money in it. There are even private doctors that specialize in late term abortions because of the lucrative nature of that, being so few doctors that provide late term abortion, again it gives them the ability to have no shortage of patients.



Besides the fact that we differ in our views of what proabortion means, there are also doctors that advocate for abortion, & promote it yes, even in your view of the word proabortion. I had read an article one time about a doctor that made a lot of money doing it & promoting it. He also argued that what he was doing was for the greater good of the planet because he was controlling possible overcrowding by eliminating pregnancies in a world with already too many people. So yes, there are, in fact, people that are proabortion in your definition as well. Seriously in this world with 7 billion people, you can't tell me that there are NO proabortion people ever, anywhere. We have pedophiles, rapists, murderers & all kinds of other sick individuals. You honestly think that all of them, everywhere, don't "agree" with abortion, but only the women's "right to choose" ? Not possible. If every person that like that, there would never be abortions.



The problem you have with the word is that you don't appreciate prolife people calling prochoice people proabortion. That's why you don't like the word. I agree too. I correct people when they try to call me proabortion. Just because you feel that way though, you can't say that NO person anywhere on this planet is proabortion because there are some.

Brandy - posted on 11/07/2012

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Thanks Kimberlee! :) I love facts...and hate propaganda. Education is the key...not scare tactics.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/07/2012

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♥Little Miss Can't Be Wrong♥~ I agree . Just wanted to add that I believe many, many of the Doctors who work in clinics performing abortions usually also work FT as just Doctors outside of the clinic. In fact most clinics only have the Doctor there performing these procedures on certain days because they have regular practices and lives. These Doctors are committed to helping women and make more money at their regular "jobs".

Brandy - posted on 11/07/2012

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Oh please! Don't compare the termination of cells that cannot think or feel pain to those living, breathing beings that can. This is no holocaust. It just sickens me every time someone compares the death of millions of PEOPLE to that of fetus'. You can believe what you want, but that doesn't change the fact that under no circumstances should you be able to tell another woman what to do with HER body. A fertilized EGG can be transferred...once the egg implants, it cannot be. It becomes a part of the woman. This is biology 101...and it amazes me how many WOMEN don't understand it.



And maybe you should do a little more research on PP before bashing it. Some clinics DO offer free pregnancy tests. Some go off of the woman's income and whether or not she has insurance. And they DO tell women the risks...which are LOWER than carrying a fetus full-term. You don't have to like, you don't have to believe it...but facts are facts.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/07/2012

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More on Carol EVERETTE -

"One thing Ms. Everett claims is that callous greed like hers is a common motive among those who are involved in the provision of abortion services. This is flagrantly untrue. She should know better. She also contends that legal abortion, as practiced in the United States today, is prohibitively dangerous. In actual fact, it is probably about as safe as having a wisdom tooth pulled and is certainly much safer than having a baby, its only alternative. She should now this.



"She claims to have "seen the light" and resigned from her clinic position in 1983. Actually, SHE WAS FIRED and was quite bitter and fiercely vengeful about it. It seems likely that she is still seeking revenge by ragefully attacking abortion providers in general, and with outrageous dishonesty.



"She was NEVER EVEN THE OWNER of a clinic as she claims. This FACT can be verified by reference to legal documents on file with the Dallas County District Clerk (Cause No. 85-522-L, styled Carol Everett vs. J. Harvey Johnson, et. al.).



". . .Among Ms. Everett's various fraudulent claims is her assertion that abortion surgery is deliberately performed on women who are not actually pregnant in order to get their money. Give me a break! I hope there are not many among us who are cynical and gullible enough to actually believe such garbage!



"Ms. Everett's HIGH LEVEL OF DISHONESTY is quite compatible with that of the so-called "Pro-Life Movement". Perhaps she can thus feel more at home on that side of the fence. My question is whether she is lying or deluded, and whether she has truly converted in any real sense. . .

Kimberlee - posted on 11/07/2012

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Carol Morrisey -



CPC's do recieve federal funding even though they offer few true services. They also often use deceptive advertising and practices.



ie - CPCs had received more than $60 million dollars of federal funding,...



AS FOR CAROL EVERETT ; - Carol Everett, the woman who claims that as a family planning education rep, her goal was to ensure that teenage girls were as sexually active and getting pregnant/having as many abortions as possible. All to drive the “Abortion Industry”, of course. As PZ points out, this is an odious lie, since it’s exactly the opposite of what organizations like Planned Parenthood actually do. A little research reveals that this woman was in fact FIRED from a family planning clinic, pissed off about it, and likely just looking for a way to cash in on anti-abortion wingnuttery by appearing in films like this one. A former work associate comments:



I do, however, think I have good reason to dispute her current claim of moral “conversion”. I seriously doubt that her motives have really changed. Numerous greed-struck religious frauds (and a few secular ones, as well) have in recent years developed sensationalistic, melodramatic, inflammatory, and blatantly fraudulent anti-abortion propaganda into one of their biggest and most dependable money-makers. I would not doubt that Carol Everett is being paid very well by Bill Price and his organizations to say whatever they think is likely to advance their agenda and hustle monetary contributions, with little regard for either truth or plausibility. [...]



“She claims to have “seen the light” and resigned from her clinic position in 1983. Actually, she was fired and was quite bitter and fiercely vengeful about it. It seems likely that she is still seeking revenge by ragefully attacking abortion providers in general, and with outrageous dishonesty.

Carol - posted on 11/07/2012

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Federal money does NOT and never has funded any crisis pregnancy center. I and others like me do fund them. Unfortunately a lot of our tax money does fund Planned Parenthood, which does not offer as many options as the crisis centers. PP doesn't give away food or clothing or diapers, or even free pregnancy tests. It doesn't tell women the truth about the risks of abortion or the possibility of adoption, and often PP has been caught covering up abuse and incest.

I did cite a source for the underreporting of abortion deaths and complications--former abortionists, such as Carol Everett, whom I heard in person. These are the only people who truly know the score on this issue.

I also don't agree that a baby is part of a woman's body. It can even have a different blood type. A fertilized egg can be transferred to a surrogate. From the moment of conception, all the DNA etc. required to make that a unique human individual is totally present. This country has suffered the hideous loss of so many people--it is a tragic holocaust.

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/07/2012

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Carol Morrisey - posted 9 hours ago

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Who supports the crisis pregnancy centers, where moms of infants and toddlers can get a lot of help?

-------------------------------------------------





I do NOT support Crisis Pregnancy Centers . They are so extremely deceptive , manipulative etc. I hate that federal money is used to fund them .

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/07/2012

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" With how many abortions are performed annually & doctors who make money from it, really, how can they not be proabortion? If abortion was illegal, they'd have to start looking for a new job. "



Yup. You are sorta right. These people that are working with women on abortion, does not make them pro abortion. That term is infuriating. These people are doctors, nurses, nurses aids, and can ALL find a different job in the medical field no problem. They make a choice to work in abortion clinics so women have a safe place to go to get an abortion. Safe medically, and mentally. They want women to leave healthy and getting the proper medical attention they are seeking instead of some butcher with a wire hanger or a dirty knife. They are NOT PRO ABORTION! They are PRO CHOICE and PRO MEDICAL PROPER MEDICAL CARE.



Pro abortion means they would want everyone who gets pregnant to have an abortion. Pro choice means you want women to have the choice to have an abortion, give birth, or even adopt. Simply because someone is pro choice does NOT make them pro abortion.



ETA: If abortion was made illegal would they have to find another job? Sure. But they are trained medical professionals. They would not have a problem securing another job. They choose to do this for womens safety and health. i cannot stress that enough. They are NOT pro abortion. That is like saying all dermatologist are pro cancer, or pro acne... because if there was non of either, dermatologist would be out of a job.

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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You repeated my quote. Then you said that you were saying no one in this thread is proabortion. You never said, sorry I understand now that you were not talking about people in this thread. You continued to speak as if you were still only defending people in this thread, so yes, despite two comments to the contrary, I figured you still were not aware I never referred to anyone in this thread as proabortion.



I am 100% entitled to clarify my comments when people misinterpret them. You are 100% entitled not to read a comment you feel "is slamming home a point you already agreed you misunderstood." You never fully explained to me that you misunderstood, you just continue to explain who you were defending, so I responded with why you don't need to defend them. I'm sorry if that offended you, but I wanted to make entirely clear what my stance was so there would be no further misinterpretations.



You are also entitled to think whatever you would like about the term proabortion. To me it means that you believe in it. I think it would be hard to have an abortion if you didn't believe in it, so at the time someone has an abortion, they are proabortion to me. They could become prolife later on or simply roll back slightly to prochoice, people change their stances on things all the time so having had an abortion does not make label you for all eternity, but for that moment in time yes. Therefore, based on my beliefs, I have the ability to use the term proabortion & I will continue to do so in moments I deem fitting. You can choose to not agree with the word & simply skip over my comment.

Jodi - posted on 11/07/2012

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I have to disagree with you on this one Lauren. Just having an abortion doesn't make one pro-abortion in my view. You are certainly entitled to your belief on that, but I will respectfully disagree with you. I still think you are misusing the term.



I also already clarified my understanding of your use of the term with regard to those in this thread. Is there some particular reason you felt the need to ram that one home when I'd already apologised, having ALREADY recognised you weren't referring to in this thread? Did you not understand when I said "Sorry, I should have clarified that I meant no-one in this discussion. ". I was never insinuating that this is what YOU were suggesting. Perhaps I am not the only one to be making assumptions, hmmm????

Lauren - posted on 11/07/2012

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I never said that I agree with "proabortion people in this thread" that a fetus is not a baby. I did not say I agree with "anyone in this thread's view" that the fetus is not a baby. I said I agree with proabortion people that a fetus is not a baby, I guess I should have followed proabortion people "in general."



Proabortion to me is that you believe in it, you condone it & you would consider using it. Anyone that has an abortion is proabortion at least during the time they're choosing to go through with it. If you perform them, then you would be proabortion too. If you were not proabortion then I don't think you could very well, in good conscious, perform your job.



The problem was you assumed I did not differentiate between the term proabortion & prochoice. That's not correct. I do differentiate. I'm prochoice. I don't agree with all things a person who is proabortion would, BUT they would argue a fetus is not a baby & that is something we would agree on.

Jodi - posted on 11/06/2012

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I was actually commenting on your use of the term pro abortion in this statement: "Sorry, but the one thing I do agree with most people who are proabortion on, is that a fetus is not a baby." and referring to those in this thread who had expressed the view of the fetus not being a baby. Sorry, I should have clarified that I meant no-one in this discussion.



And just for the record, here in my country, doctors don't make money from performing abortions. I don't think it is fair to suggest that just because doctors perform abortions as part of their job, and are paid to do so, that they are necessarily "pro" abortion. Maybe you view the term pro abortion differently than I do. I see it more as taking an active role in actually promoting it. I don't think too many people out there are actually active promoters of it as the best option. Yes, maybe there are a few, but I think caution should be used when using the term in a general context.

Lauren - posted on 11/06/2012

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Well I would think anyone who has had multiple abortions as a method of birth control would be proabortion & certain people at Planned Parenthood have definitely sounded proabortion when my unmarried 18 year old friend called there to ask about free pregnancy tests & the first thing out of the woman's mouth was have you considered an abortion?



Trust me, I'm pro choice, and many people confuse prochoice with proabortion, but I doubt you can honestly say that in a Country with how many hundreds of millions of people that NO ONE is proabortion. With how many abortions are performed annually & doctors who make money from it, really, how can they not be proabortion? If abortion was illegal, they'd have to start looking for a new job.

Jodi - posted on 11/06/2012

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Lauren, I don't think anyone is actually pro abortion, only pro choice. Just wanted to clarify that. personally, I don't like the term pro abortion to describe those who are pro choice, because I don't consider myself pro abortion. I'm sure I'm not the only one :) But I agree with your points.

Lauren - posted on 11/06/2012

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Carol, it's great that it worked out for those two, but not every story has a happy ending. How many other children grow up neglected, unloved, abusing drugs, being physically, mentally & sexually abused in foster homes?



Again adoption is not a guarantee they will be placed with a loving family. And just because I happen to agree that abortion is wrong on a personal level & that I would never choose it for myself, nor do I go around advocating it, if there is a woman out there who feels that is her only option for whatever reason SHE chooses, then it is NOT my place or YOURS to tell her what she can or cannot do with HER body.



Sorry, but the one thing I do agree with most people who are proabortion on, is that a fetus is not a baby. It is not breathing, it can not think, feel or do most other things an actual person CAN do, as well as, live on its own, without the Mother. While the fetus relies on the Mother to continue growing into a full fledged living, breathing individual person, it is still an extension of the Mother's body & she has the right to keep it or abort it for any reason she deems necessary & NO ONE has the right to push their personal or religious views on her for any reason. She is a grown adult, fully capable of making her own decisions free from interference from anyone else except for her doctor.

Brandy - posted on 11/06/2012

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Carol, where are your sources that back up the so-called under-reported abortion-related deaths? I listed a source...you have none.



So one case where the rape victim and child are all happy-go-lucky in their wonderful world and it's ok for you to say this applies to every situation??? Really?? Lauren's right...unless you've been in that situation, you really have no room to talk. And even then, you have no right to tell another woman that in 15 years her and that rape child are going to enjoy each other...so just bear with it.



Actually, a FETUS is a part of the woman's body. If taken out of the womb, detached from the woman, it dies. It cannot sustain it's own life, nor can anyone but that one person sustain it's life. Therefore it IS part of the woman and therefore very much the woman's property. Until it can live on it's own, it is not a separate human being.



Murder and assault apply to beings that can think and feel pain, not to a glob of cells that can do neither.



Actually, biological science does NOT prove a bunch of cells is a baby. You should do a little research on the topic, Carol. You are spouting pro-life propaganda, not facts.

Cecillia - posted on 11/06/2012

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I'm against abortion for religious reasons. I don't care if my birth control fails, I knowingly had sex knowing that I could get pregnant regardless of what type of protection I'm using and I would never make a "fetus" suffer for my birth control failure. I would never push this view on another woman and I definitely struggle with the rape issue in all of this. If I was ever in that situation I would just pray that God would give me the wisdom and strength to do whatever it is He wanted me to do with the life He trusted me with. My husband's aunt and uncle have struggled for 7 years with infertility and have been waiting to adopt a newborn for over 3 years and I think that has definitely opened my eyes to how amazing the option of adoption is. Yes pregnancies can have their complications and yes it is very taxing on your body, but I think it's worth it to give that child a chance and to give a couple the opportunity to be parents.

Carol - posted on 11/06/2012

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Notice that I said complications and deaths from abortion are under-reported, as admitted by former abortionists. I heard Carol Everett, who used to run 2 abortion clinics in Texas, tell about this in person when she spoke in Jackson. She herself took a dying woman to the hospital in her car so an ambulance wouldn't be seen at the clinic, and then had a doctor friend lie on the death certificate. She said this happens all the time. I've heard other such reports as well.

Lauren, maybe you should ask Lee Ezell and her daughter Julie Maakima whether children of rape should be aborted. Lee gave Julie up for adoption after being raped, but they were re-united after Julie grew up. Julie is a beautiful person and looks a lot like her mother. They are now enjoying a great relationship and speak out for life. Julie deserved to live, and her mother is blessed by that choice. A baby is not part of the woman's body, nor her property, but a separate human being. We have laws against murder and assault--that takes away a person's choice too, doesn't it? Do you think everyone should be able to just do as they please? Not when it injures another human being--and a baby is that, right from the start. Biological science proves that. I'm so sad that we have lost hundreds of thousands of people who should be among us today.

Lauren - posted on 11/06/2012

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Carol, child conceived in rape..very rare? You must get your information from Todd Akin! It's way more than very rare! At least 36,000 reported pregnancies per year are a result of rape. Considering that estimates are that more than 70% of rapes go unreported because our society prefers to slut shame the victim, analyze her method of dress, her past sexual partners & history to determine if she was too sexually active (i.e. a whore) & then drill her to determine if she's lying.. (i.e. Todd Akin's term "legitimate" rape), - using that figure, for every 36,000 pregnancies reported, there may be as many as another 84,000 unreported pregnancies OR MORE each year as a result of rape.



As we have already addressed, adoption sounds great, but there are a ton of children waiting to be adopted. Many couples want a baby, so yes, they may wait a while to get it, but there are millions of toddlers to teenagers in foster care waiting & will probably never be adopted.



It's also very easy for women & men who have never been raped, to sit on the sidelines & tell these victims what they should do, but until you have been raped & faced with that choice of what to do with the baby, you can not adequately empathize with a woman that has. I've been raped. I don't wish it on anyone. I never had to make a choice about a pregnancy after, but I did have to listen to people tell me that I brought the rape on myself or deserved it somehow. Oh & you have to love that brain dead Senator who said, well, it's all part of God's plan for me. I'm glad to know God loves me so much.



What I will tell you is, if you've been raped, you don't want to live through remembering it again. You want to put the experience behind you & move on, forget it ever happened. If I had to have a child ask me about her Dad & why he's not in her life & how me & her Dad met or God forbid that guy wanted visitation of that child or wanted to use that pretense of visiting the child as a way to track me down to abuse me physically and/or rape me again, I've got to say, that I could understand why some women may want to not have the child & it should not be anyone else's place to force her to have that child, even if she were to give her up for adoption. You still have to live with it for at least nine months. Unless you have been in that situation, you can't possibly understand what would make someone come to the decision to terminate & it would be incredibly unfair & insensitive to use that horrible situation as a time to attempt to impose your own religious & personal beliefs on the individual rights of another woman.

Brandy - posted on 11/06/2012

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Carol, no matter anything else, it all comes down to whether or not you would tell someone else what to do with their body. If you would, you are forcing your beliefs...which is wrong. Or are you psychic? Do you know without a doubt that a woman who was raped and became pregnant will not be helped by aborting the fetus? Can you honestly speak for every single woman?



Please read this article dated this January - http://health.usnews.com/health-news/fam...

"The risk of death associated with a full-term pregnancy and delivery is 8.8 deaths per 100,000, while the risk of death linked to legal abortion is 0.6 deaths per 100,000 women, according to the study. That means a woman carrying a baby to term is 14 times more likely to die than a woman who chooses to have a legal abortion, the study finds."



And no one is killing "children". Your post is full of pro-life propaganda. Just a quick search will ease your mind about abortion. But then, pro-lifers don't want their minds eased...they like to scare people in doing what they (pro-lifers) want them to do, instead of what they choose to do.

Carol - posted on 11/06/2012

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Just a couple of comments: I don't understand why our culture doesn't promote adoption more. If a child is conceived in rape (very rare, but it does happen), then let that child be adopted by an infertile couple who is longing for a baby. The child is innocent and should not be executed for its father's crime. And so many couples are begging for a baby.

I also don't understand why pro-life people are accused of not caring for babies once they are born. Who supports the crisis pregnancy centers, where moms of infants and toddlers can get a lot of help? And my church is not the only one with a food pantry and a stewardship fund and a "cartunes" ministry to help with auto maintenance, etc.

A woman who has been raped will not be helped by killing her baby. It's like a second rape. And it is still her child. Furthermore, abortion is not a safe procedure. It used to be argued that it was safer than giving birth. That's a total lie. It's just that the complications and deaths from abortion are not reported accurately. We know this from former abortion clinic personnel.

So let us cherish life and find ways to support women so they don't have to resort to killing their children.

Denikka - posted on 11/06/2012

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I read through the article Brandy, and I couldn't agree more.



The only thing I could think of that wasn't addressed (a minor detail really).

What happens, even in a legitimate rape scenario, if the woman doesn't know if it was the rapist who got her pregnant or not.

In a world where abortion was illegal except in rape/incest (ect) cases, how would you prove it was really the rapist? That would HAVE to be a part of the process. Otherwise you may actually be *killing* a baby that had no part or connection to the traumatic crime.



The earliest a fetus can be DNA tested is 10 weeks (10-13 weeks for Chorionic villus sampling (CVS) and 15 to 20 weeks for amniocentesis)



That's pretty drastically AFTER when most abortions are currently performed.



So say that abortion is illegal. You go through a trial, it agrees that you WERE raped, but there's doubt about the actual paternity. So you wait until a DNA test can be done. Realistically, even in best case scenarios, there will be a significant increase in later term abortions. . . .which is one thing that most of the pro life/anti abortionists are VERY against.

So then what? Both procedures are risky and can cause miscarriages (amniocentesis is a 1/100 risk, CVS is a 1/50 risk for miscarriage, has a 5% failure rate, infection, and, if the fetus is carried to term, there is a risk of physical abnormalities such as missing or shortened fingers and toes) . Realistically, you may actually be performing abortions on beings that ARE capable of feeling pain, who knows how long the trial and the DNA testing can take.

You can easily be having abortions 21 weeks or over, past the term of viability (at 24 weeks) and way past the point where 99% of abortions are currently performed. I'm sure there would be a huge outcry against terminating fetuses who are past the viable age outside the womb (there already is, even though it's extremely rare and most of those consist of fetuses that pose a danger to the mother or who are unable to live on their own anyway due to malformations etc).

So what then? Ooops? The process took too long, you'll just have to keep it now?? Who pays for that?

The mother? Let's MAKE her pay the medical bills for her rapists baby.

The tax payers? Oh, I see that going over well.

The rapist? Okay, better idea, but what if he's not caught? If he's in jail, how does he pay?

Yea. . . .great plan.

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/06/2012

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Heather - it's true that we make social issues into political issues and it's also true that the two party system sucks ! It's divisive as all hell. I wish they would end it. I don't fit neatly into either ( abortion and guns..a foot in each camp as it were .. ) I also don't like when people place blame on one camp over the other , even though it can be easy to do so.





Kimberlee - I agree

Brandy - posted on 11/06/2012

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Fetal personhood and criminalizing abortion: a prosecutor’s perspective - http://thedeadauthorsclub.wordpress.com/...

I saw this posted on FaceBook earlier. A must read...especially for pro-lifers! The guy who wrote the article is a prosecuting attorney, who has dealt with rape cases, both adult and child, pregnant and not. Maybe this will open the eyes of the pro-lifers a bit to the can of worms criminalizing abortion can open.

Lady Heather - posted on 11/05/2012

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"Why pick on conservatives? There are millions of liberals in this country. If the liberals adopted the children in the foster care system, there wouldn't be any. I am not liberal or conservative. Why pick on one group of people and place no blame on the other group? I know many people from both groups and it has been my experience - based on the conservatives that I know - that they are the ones who donate the most, do adopt and foster, and volunteer much more than the liberals I know."



I am not trying to pick on anyone. But let's be real here - the social conservative platform generally includes a pro-life stance and the political conservative platform generally includes less socialism that would provide aid to children who have a shitty life and can't adjust in adulthood. That's just plain as day to me. That doesn't mean any one conservative in particular is a rotten person. I know many a dandy conservative. You clearly know all the wrong liberals. Lol.



The reason I'm focusing on the conservative faction is that I just want them to see that we need to take care of the kids we already have before we start worrying about all those that are never going to be. And there is some sort of weird hypocrisy going on where we fight for the rights of the unborn and kick them to the curb upon birth. That is not universal but the bias exists. Does that mean liberals couldn't do more to help? Of course not. We all need to do what we can to contribute to the betterment of society of course. But most liberals aren't out there trying to add more babies to this mess. It's conservatives who have decided to make abortion THE THING above all others, at least in the US. Up here it's much different, but dude - you all are legislating this shit up the whazoo.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/05/2012

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Melissa the very earliest anyone is saying that it would be possible for a fetus to "feel" is after the first trimester . Therefore I don't see a point in debating the issue of fetal pain.

Melissa - posted on 11/05/2012

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"It turns out that no one really knows what it feels like to be a fetus. Through different interpretations of accumulating evidence, various scientists have estimated that pain becomes possible anywhere from 18 to 29 weeks into gestation, maybe later.



While the debate is essential for doctors who perform fetal surgery, scientists on both sides say their work should not play a role in political matters. Too often, people twist what we know into what they want to believe."



Source: http://news.discovery.com/human/fetus-pa...

Kimberlee - posted on 11/05/2012

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The brain stuff is just my opinion on why I am okay with women making their own choice about abortion , it's why I don't see a fetus as a Baby.



I also am against the death penalty but not because life is sacred or any of that. I am against it because its expensive as in more expensive then keeping a person in jail for the rest of their life. lso innocent people are put to death and that's not okay.

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