abortion and where do you stand .

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

Exactly. ^ :)

Jodi - posted on 11/05/2012

"It's a fact that murder is wrong because it is someone else harming another living, breathing, functioning person. It's a fact that theft is wrong because it too harms another...maybe not physically, but emotionally."



That's what I mean by violating the rights of others. Both of those things are violations on another person.

Sarah - posted on 11/05/2012

ameobas do..........I think worms do to but Im not sure

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

Well, we should try to base them as much as we can on facts and not violating the rights of others. It's a fact that murder is wrong because it is someone else harming another living, breathing, functioning person. It's a fact that theft is wrong because it too harms another...maybe not physically, but emotionally. Same with illegal substances...they are harmful. These are not beliefs, these are facts. Coming around to the abortion issue, a fetus is not considered a living, breathing, functioning person because it has no brain function to be any of those things. There is no harm being caused to a living being...there is only the termination of a cluster of cells.

Jodi - posted on 11/05/2012

No, based on violating the rights of others.

Lauren - posted on 11/05/2012

I think some people are trying to scientifically argue why destroying a fetus is not the same as murder. I don't think they are *FOR* abortion. I'm not for abortion either. I'm for allowing everyone to make their own personal decisions based on their own beliefs without coercion from anyone else except their doctor.



In terms of the death penalty, once you choose to take the life of another living, breathing human being, especially in a horrible, planned & vicious manner. You lose all rights as far as I'm concerned. That means then that majority rules. If 51% of us think you should die for your crime, then you shall.



And for the love of my sanity, PLEASE STOP saying women need to keep their legs closed. That is typically a male response to abortion, misogynistic BS. Some righteous women on their pedestals spout that nonsense occasionally too & I can't stand it. For one, perhaps the BC failed. For two, they could have been raped, you don't know. For three, I don't hear people running around telling guys to keep it in their pants? It takes two to create a baby, we don't get pregnant from having sex with ourselves! Last but not least, there is nothin wrong with a woman who likes sex! Some conservatives try to make that woman sound like a slut which I can't stand! It's normal! It's not something to be ashamed of. Also, with my children's father, even though I wasn't in love with him & tried to stay for my kids, if he wanted sex, there was no shutting him up until I gave in. He would keep bugging me for it & not let me sleep & I would do it just to keep him quiet even if I wasn't in the mood. I know plenty of women in similar situations. So again I say, stop telling the woman to keep her legs closed & tell the guy to keep it in his pants!!!

Sarah - posted on 11/05/2012

to maintain an orderly society...bases of belief in what is wrong versus right

Jodi - posted on 11/05/2012

Actually, most laws are based on the ability to maintain an orderly society and imposing on other people's rights. A law banning abortion would remove the rights of many, many women to make a choice.

Sarah - posted on 11/05/2012

What are laws based on then if not on the bases of a belief that something is wrong/right?

Kimberlee - posted on 11/05/2012

I'm pro-choice , I support womens ability to legally make their own choice regarding abortion and all the other issues of reproduction.

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

Sarah, maybe there are some...but I doubt it. Just because we make a scientific case, doesn't mean we are gung-ho for it. It just means we understand that facts have to come into place over beliefs. Facts state that the fetus has no brain function and can feel no pain. To me, that means it's not a baby. For legal purposes, that means it's not a baby. If you want to call it a baby, by all means, go for it. But that is your belief. And laws should not be made based on that belief.

Jodi - posted on 11/05/2012

To say that someone is FOR abortion means you are suggesting that it is a positive option. I think, if you did a survey, you would actually find that the majority of pro choice people are not FOR abortion at all. They'd like to see it eliminated in a perfect world. They just do not want to see it taken away as a choice.



I think this is what pro-life people, either deliberately or not, misunderstand. Pro choice is about being for the CHOICE not for the ABORTION.

Sarah - posted on 11/05/2012

But surely some are For abortion if they are making a case that it is ok to do because its not really a baby yet...perhaps not you specifically

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

@Lakota-

Yeah, he does...and so many don't understand that. Many see law enforcement (such as police officers) as the good guys...but forget about the guys keeping the criminals locked up...which is actually a much tougher job - they're around these criminals all day! So thanks for understanding. :)

Sarah - posted on 11/05/2012

hehe yeah I did mean pro-choice oops..also the question was ..is it really that you are for abortion or just for the choice?...... and then I asked why a vegan would be for abortion but be concerned about a chickens egg

Sarah - posted on 11/05/2012

You are right I can not Nor do I have any intentions on doing so...which is good because my ideas aren't always well planned out..I'm no fool though I know people will do what they want to do but by legalizing acts that harm I think our government is being foolish. many will not agree with me and that is fine.

Jodi - posted on 11/05/2012

@ Chelsea, could you please check your inbox.

Lakota - posted on 11/05/2012

Brandy, I bet you do know a lot about the system. Your husband has a tough job. I am for the death penalty also.

Lauren - posted on 11/05/2012

Chelsea, there you go again. People are debating with you. You accuse them of attacking you. The very idea of pro-life is that you feel abortion is wrong & should be illegal. Therefore, you are, in fact, trying to FORCE your personal beliefs on others, making them accept your views & follow your personal beliefs. Again, as has been said, numerous times, pro choice does NOT mean we *like* abortion, it means we recognize it's NOT our place to force other people to accept our views on abortion by making it illegal. That is the ONLY difference between us.

Jodi - posted on 11/05/2012

And no, I am not FOR abortion. I am FOR leaving the choice between a woman and her doctor. Making it illegal removes that choice. Wanting abortion to remain a legal option/choice does not mean someone is FOR abortion. I don't think anyone is FOR abortion per se.

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

No, actually, I'm voting to keep the death penalty in place. There are facts that state why the death penalty should remain. Over-crowding of prisons is one. My husband works in a prison...I know a bit about the system.

Lauren - posted on 11/05/2012

Sarah, you can spread the word of God & help others get in to Heaven by talking to them & asking if they would like to learn about God & how to be better. If they say no, you can't *force* them to do what you want by outlawing things you *think* they shouldn't do, like abortion. That's just wrong.

Lakota - posted on 11/05/2012

I am not going to vote to have that right taken away from women. We all in a sense vote for people and things to "force" our beliefs on others because we all think we are right.

Lakota - posted on 11/05/2012

Brandy, you posted these two comments:



"Not me...I'm all for the death penalty. In fact, one of our propositions in California to vote on tomorrow is the repeal of the death penalty. I'm voting no. "



"But that's the thing...laws should NEVER be enacted based on anyone's beliefs. Because everyone's beliefs differ."



You are voting not to have the death penalty repealed because you believe in the death penalty. That sort of contradicts your second post.

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

But that's the thing...laws should NEVER be enacted based on anyone's beliefs. Because everyone's beliefs differ. Laws must be made based on what facts we know at any given time. So if you are voting FOR making abortion illegal based on your beliefs, then you are voting to put your beliefs higher than someone else's...and that is wrong...that is forcing your beliefs. To give a woman a choice is not forcing any beliefs. You can still hold onto your beliefs for your actions and I can hold onto my beliefs for my actions. But once a law makes it illegal based on someone's beliefs, the other group always hurts for it in the end. How does a woman on the other side of the country having an abortion affect you? Why would you enact a law that states she cannot make a choice that has no affect on you?

Lakota - posted on 11/05/2012

"I believe abortion is very wrong. I believe it is murder also. That being said, I also believe it's a personal choice along with all other bad choices some women make and will have to be held accountable for one day."



That makes you pro-choice.



Yes, Jodi, I am.

Lakota - posted on 11/05/2012

"Anyway, it's fine for you to believe what you do. So long as you don't try to force your beliefs onto others by helping to enact laws that would take their rights away, it's all good."



I do vote for laws and for people who have my beliefs. We all do. So, I don't force my views on others. Unless you think voting is forcing. If so, then I don't force them any more than you do or others that vote.

Lauren - posted on 11/05/2012

Chelsea, you are very sensitive to debates apparently. If anyone confronts your comments with facts offering a different perspective than you, your next post is extremely emotional citing that we are attacking you or putting down your beliefs or not considering your point of view. You keep saying this & we keep saying that os not true. I've said several times we agree with you, life is precious, personally we feel abortion is wrong, we would most likely not ever have an abortion either, BUT we would never force another person to share our same views. We would never judge a person & dictate their personal decisions.



No one has attacked your or demeaned you or said your opinions are not valid or that they're stupid or that you have no right to share them. We says you have no right to force others to follow your beliefs. If you can't handle debate & other people's point of view, perhaps you shouldn't be on this board. It may be too stressful & emotional of a topic for you.

Jodi - posted on 11/05/2012

"I believe abortion is very wrong. I believe it is murder also. That being said, I also believe it's a personal choice along with all other bad choices some women make and will have to be held accountable for one day."



That makes you pro-choice.

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

Do you mean a question for the pro-choicers?



I'm for the choice. If there was NEVER a reason for abortion, I firmly believe there wouldn't be abortion. If we lived in an ideal world...and all that...but the truth is, we don't.

When I was younger, I could never bring myself to get an abortion. My first child was unplanned and I was 18 when I got pregnant. He's 16 now. And I'm 35 now. I have 2 kids and don't want any more. And the risks have now increased for complications because of my age. So if I were to get pregnant now, I honestly don't know what I'd do. My husband and I would have to have some serious discussions, I can tell you that much. But I cannot in good conscience tell another woman, no matter what her reason, not to get an abortion if she feels she must.



And BTW...I'm so not vegan...lol. I love meat...we eat it all the time. :) Though I don't quite get the correlation you're trying to make.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/05/2012

I am hoping you mean pro choicers. No one is FOR abortion, like rooting for it and cheering it on. It is the choice. You said vegan, well I happen to be vegetarian for 18 years. So, to compare and abortion to making the choice to not eat animals, sorry but that really is not a valid argument. Intentionally and consciously making the choice not to eat animals, vs wanting women to have control over their own bodies? Yeah....not really in the same league.

Sarah - posted on 11/05/2012

I actually do want to know so please, not attacking anyone, but for the pro-lifers out there..is it really that you are for abortion or just for the choice? I once heard someone say that they are vegan and pro-choice.....that is why I wonder becuase while I don't agree I can understand the choice part, but if its really that their opinion is the baby is not a bay yet then why is eating chicken egg so bad?

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

"I have always been confused as to why many people who think abortion is ok, has a problem with the death penalty."



Not me...I'm all for the death penalty. In fact, one of our propositions in California to vote on tomorrow is the repeal of the death penalty. I'm voting no.



Anyway, it's fine for you to believe what you do. So long as you don't try to force your beliefs onto others by helping to enact laws that would take their rights away, it's all good.

Lakota - posted on 11/05/2012

I believe life begins at conception. I believe in God and the He picked my son for me long before he was conceived. So, the whole brain/heart conversation means nothing to me.



I have always been confused as to why many people who think abortion is ok, has a problem with the death penalty.

Sarah - posted on 11/05/2012

I whole heartedly do not agree with shock value to get someone to change their mind. I find the photos of aborted babies sad and disrespectful to the life that once was. That said please do not be fooled, many ..no you are right, not all,,but many of them are real. In fact there is a documentary on netflix where a woman photographer explains and shows the abortion clinic she got the remains in order to take the pictures.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/05/2012

Jennifer Kooyenga - posted 1 hour ago

220

How about that baby's heartbeat being a sign of life. does that not matter?

-------------------



Not to me. That beginning heart beat wouldn't sustain life anyway. Besides as I have said , for me , what makes a person who they are is their brain , their personality , ability to speak , think and feel etc.. and a first trimester fetus simply does not have a functioning brain.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/05/2012

Chelsea Duarte - posted 45 minutes ago

400

When someone's heart stops beating, their brain fucntion ceases. When someone's head is chopped off their heart stops beating. The brain and the heart work together. This is a scientific fact.

---------------------------



Being declared legally brain dead does not require anything as drastic as having ones head cut off. Do you understand the complexities of a human brain ? Do you understand the difference between brain stem function compared to what the rest of the brain does? If we look at the requirements for brain death, and examine how they compare with the developmental sequence of a fetuses brain development, we see that the brain of a third-trimester baby, could be declared brain dead. I am placing my personal cut-off for abortion at the first trimester except of course for circumstances that would jeopardize the life of the mother..

Brandy - posted on 11/05/2012

Chelsea...we HAVE answered your questions. Either you aren't reading the responses, or you are ignoring them because they do not fit your world view. You are acting high and mighty with your comment about only pro-lifers value life (which is very much NOT true)...and acting persecuted. No one has said you don't deserve to live...ever. So come down from that moral high ground where you are perched and have an adult conversation without accusing everyone of not listening to you and bashing you for your beliefs.



The one question I haven't seen you answer is the biggest, most important one: would you support a law that makes abortion illegal? That is the only question that matters. Would you willingly take a woman's choice to choose away? You can believe whatever you want for you own body and your own life. But when you try to enact laws that takes rights and choices away from others, based primarily on your own beliefs, that is where you are overstepping. So, do you believe a woman should have a choice, no matter what your personal convictions are or not?

Kimberlee - posted on 11/05/2012

BRAIN Formation in fetus - Synapses-the points where two neurons, the basic building blocks of the nervous system, come together to interact-form in large numbers during the seventeenth and following weeks, allowing for communication between individual neurons. Synaptic activity underlies all brain functions. Synaptic growth does not skyrocket until around postconception day 200 (week 28). Nonetheless, at around week 23 the fetus can survive outside the womb, with medical support; also around this time the fetus can respond to aversive stimuli. Major synaptic growth continues until the third or fourth postnatal month. Sulci continue to develop as the cortex starts folding to create a larger surface area and to accommodate the growing neurons and their supporting glial cells. During this period, neurons begin to myelinate (a process of insulation that speeds their electrical communication). By the THIRTY SECOND week, the fetal brain is in control of breathing and body temperature.



By the time a child is born, the brain largely resembles that of an adult but is far from finished with development. The cortex will continue to increase in complexity for years, and synapse formation will continue for a lifetime.



BRAIN DEATH - People can be 'brain dead' but their heart is functioning because they're connected to life support, and they have brain stem function (which controls heart rate). In these cases a patient can be considered 'brain dead' because all higher functions of the brain have ceased, and often even with support present the body will cease to function within hours or days.

Chelsea - posted on 11/05/2012

Ooh good point Lakota!

Chelsea - posted on 11/05/2012

When someone's heart stops beating, their brain fucntion ceases. When someone's head is chopped off their heart stops beating. The brain and the heart work together. This is a scientific fact.

Chelsea - posted on 11/05/2012

Of course it is. Your brain cannot function without the heart and the heart cannot function without the brain. It's a well known fact. Even when people are in a coma, they can still hear things. This is why the doctors tell you to talk to them. But the heart itself, is what keeps a person alive, not the brain. The brain is what cause a person to think and reason, not to live, however, they are connected. That is why I don't know how you can say there's no brain activity while the heart is beating. That is a bunch of bull

Lakota - posted on 11/05/2012

Why pick on conservatives? There are millions of liberals in this country. If the liberals adopted the children in the foster care system, there wouldn't be any. I am not liberal or conservative. Why pick on one group of people and place no blame on the other group? I know many people from both groups and it has been my experience - based on the conservatives that I know - that they are the ones who donate the most, do adopt and foster, and volunteer much more than the liberals I know.

Jennifer - posted on 11/05/2012

How about that baby's heartbeat being a sign of life. does that not matter?

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/05/2012

Heather Livingstone - posted 4 minutes ago







yeah how long have people said that (Don't spread your legs) it's never worked , why would anyone think that it would work now?



To lower unintended pregnancy we need better education and much better access to birth control. People will continue to have sex after all.

and certainly this issue is one issue out of a much larger picture. There are many issues to be dealt with such as drug addiction ..speaking of which how many conservatives would put a pregnant addict in jail rather then making sure their are treatment centers open to her? How many people won't adopt out of foster care , even though those are living breathing children who are here and need help now. What about the broken education system ( especially in poorer neighbothoods) kids going to bed hungry , abused , neglected ..so many problems. Seem that when it comes to abortion , allowing the female to make her own decision is the best way to handle it.

Lady Heather - posted on 11/05/2012

Why all the focus on women spreading their legs? Why don't we tell the menfolk to stop sticking their penis all up in everything and blame them? lol.

Lady Heather - posted on 11/05/2012

If it's true that pro-life means pro-life at all ages, where is the rallying cry for all the kids who live now and are without a home? Where is it? Abortion is front and center in all these political debates. Look at this thread - how many responses? How many responses would I get if I posted something about foster kids with developmental issues? Guarantee you not this many. So if all stages of life are of equal concern, where is the demand for these kids? That's what I want to know. Are people just not aware?



The thing that boggles my mind too is when these kids with no families age out and turn to a life of crime or drug abuse the conservative bunch who want to outlaw abortion are the first to demonize their actions and remove funding to social programs that might help them. I'm not speaking to anyone specifically here or saying that is always the case, but in general conservatives are more likely to have these views. I look at all the drug addicts and prostitutes around here and all I think is - those people never had a chance. I can't judge anything they do because look where they come from. I probably wouldn't be any different. And I know that's a tangent, but I do see these things as ultimately linked. There is a bigger picture that is missed in this debate.

Lakota - posted on 11/05/2012

I believe abortion is very wrong. I believe it is murder also. That being said, I also believe it's a personal choice along with all other bad choices some women make and will have to be held accountable for one day.

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/05/2012

Chelsea Duarte - posted 33 minutes ago

360

A heartbeat gives a person life, not the brain. I learnt this in science class for goodness sakes







so you believe that having a pumping a heart and no brain activity is still being alive? - I disagree.

Michelle1544 - posted on 11/05/2012

~♥Little Miss Can't Be Wrong♥~ - posted 21 minutes ago

14,10911

Kimberlee, I am still not seeing any of your reposts personal attacks. No one is slamming anyone, calling names, or degrading them. Come on now.





when did kimberlee say she was being personally attacked? I missed that.