cry it out

[deleted account] ( 29 moms have responded )

for you mom's that practice the cry-it-out method...how old are your children?

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[deleted account]

Jenn- thank you for posting that....umm I guess we can go ahead and lock or delete the thread. I (being the original poster) didn't mean for it to be a discussion about how the method is right or wrong...i was simply trying to find out those mom's that did use it..how old their children were. It's not a fricken debate. Every child is different and every parent is different...don't attack each other for different parenting styles....

Nicole - posted on 01/21/2010

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Are we damaging our baby by letting him cry himself to sleep?

My husband and I are attempting to teach our five-month-old boy to put himself to sleep. We lay him down and let him cry, but we go in every five and seven minutes and tell him we love him. What kind of damage are we doing when we let him cry?

Expert Answers

Martha and William Pieper, emotional health and well-being experts
You're so right to be alarmed about the negative side effects of letting a baby cry himself to sleep! There is a popular but unrealistic and, ultimately, harmful notion that infants should not bother their parents at night and that responding positively to babies who are having trouble sleeping teaches them to take advantage of their parents' caring and deprives parents of sleep on a regular basis.

Anyone who advises you to let your baby cry until he gives up and falls asleep is focusing on the baby's behavior (going to sleep all alone) and not on how the baby feels in the process. The problem is that when infants are left to cry themselves to sleep, they are forced to conclude that they are not lovable enough to engage their parents' desires to comfort them. If they actually stop crying, it is because they have abandoned all hope that help will come. The meaningful question, then, is not, "What will make my baby go to sleep with the least attention?" but "What will enable my baby to put himself to sleep with the self-confidence that comes from feeling happy and cared about?"

The answer is that if you offer your baby relationship pleasure rather than relationship deprivation, you will help him go to sleep secure in the conviction that you love him and want him to be happy. You can put him down when you think he's sleepy, sing to him, rub his back, or find other ways to comfort him, and then leave the room. If he cries, you can return and calm him and then leave again.

Although in the first year you may have to return many times to your baby's crib to rock him, give him the breast or bottle, or stroke him, your baby will learn both that you can be relied on to respond to his needs and also that he can put himself to sleep in a contented manner (and not out of despair). Over time, as your baby learns that his cries will be responded to, he will need less input from you to feel comforted and sleep.

A baby who is responded to in this way will become a child who is a sound and reliable sleeper; and you will be rewarded with many peaceful nights as the result of your efforts in your baby's first year. Sleep-deprived parents of crying babies often feel very tempted to let their infants cry themselves to sleep so that they, themselves, will be able to get some rest. We ourselves know from experience how exhausted parents of infants can become. But we also know that you will be repaid later for the extra effort you make for your baby now. Your baby cannot perceive that you are tired and need peace and quiet, so when he is left to cry himself to sleep he has to think that you are choosing to leave him feeling helpless and miserable.

Once you see that you were right to worry about leaving your baby to cry and that the interruptions to your sleep caused by tending to him are both beneficial to him and time-limited, then, even though you are tired, you will have more reason to make the effort to go to your baby and try to help him to sleep comfortably.

While our approach to helping babies learn to put themselves to sleep is more time-consuming than the popular prescription to let infants cry, it will make your baby happier now and will also lay the foundation for his future well-being. Just as parents rarely balk when they are told they have to get up in the middle of the night to give children medicine or take their temperatures, we have found that when parents understand the healing they cause by responding to their infants' cries, they usually will accept the interruptions to their sleep as reasonable and necessary. We applaud your wish to help your baby put himself to sleep in a happier way and wish you well.

Nicole - posted on 01/20/2010

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First a quote " Remember, you are not managing an inconvenience; You are raising a human being" ~ Kittie Franz
1) http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/cons-of-c...
2) http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/crying-it...
and lastly until gather even more (pardon typos, breastfeeding at the keyboard)
3~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Harvard Researchers Say Children Need Touching and Attention

by Alvin Powell, Contributing Writer,
Harvard Gazette

America's "let them cry" attitude toward children may lead to more fears and
tears among adults, according to two Harvard Medical School researchers.
Instead of letting infants cry, American parents should keep their babies
close, console them when they cry, and bring them to bed with
them, where they'll feel safe, according to Michael Commons and Patrice
Miller, researchers at the Medical School's Department of Psychiatry.

The pair examined child-rearing practices here and in other cultures and say
the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds - even
separate rooms - and not responding to their cries may lead to more
incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders among American
adults.

The early stress due to separation causes changes in infant brains that
makes future adults more susceptible to stress in their lives, say Commons
and Miller.

"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms
the baby permanently," Commons said. "It changes the nervous system so
they're sensitive to future trauma."

Their work is unique because it takes a cross-disciplinary approach,
examining brain function, emotional learning in infants, and cultural
differences, according to Charles R. Figley, director of the Traumatology
Institute at Florida State University and editor of The Journal of
Traumatology.

"It is very unusual but extremely important to find this kind of
interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary research report," Figley said. "It
accounts for cross-cultural differences in children's emotional response and
their ability to cope with stress, including traumatic stress."

___________
"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms
the baby permanently. It changes the nervous system so they're sensitive to
future trauma."
- Dr. Michael Commons, Dept of Psychiatry, Harvard
___________

Figley said their work illuminates a route of further study and could have
implications for everything from parents' efforts to intellectually
stimulate infants to painful practices such as circumcision. Commons has
been a lecturer and research associate at the Medical School's Department of
Psychiatry since 1987 and is a member of the Department's Program in
Psychiatry and the Law.

Miller has been a research associate at Harvard Medical School's Program in
Psychiatry and the Law since 1994 and an assistant professor of psychology
at Salem State College since 1993. She received master's and doctorate
degrees in education from Harvard's Graduate School of Education.


The pair say that American child-rearing practices are influenced by fears
that children will grow up dependent. But parents are on the wrong track.
Physical contact and reassurance will make children more secure when they
finally head out on their own and make them better able to form their own
adult relationships.

"We've stressed independence so much that it's having some very negative
side effects," Miller said.

The two gained the spotlight in February when they presented their ideas at
the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual meeting in
Philadelphia.

In a paper presented at the meeting, Commons and Miller contrasted American
child-rearing practices with those of other cultures, particularly the Gusii
tribe of Kenya. Gusii mothers sleep with their babies and respond rapidly
when the baby cries.

"Gusii mothers watching videotapes of U.S. mothers were upset by how long it
took these mothers to respond to infant crying," Commons and Miller said in
their paper on the subject.

The way we are brought up colors our entire society, Commons and Miller say.
Americans in general don't like to be touched and pride themselves on
independence to the point of isolation, even when undergoing a difficult or
stressful time.

Despite the conventional wisdom that babies should learn to be alone, Miller
said she believes many parents "cheat," keeping the baby in the room with
them, at least initially. In addition, once the child can crawl around, she
believes many find their way into their parents' room on their own.

American parents shouldn't worry about this behavior or be afraid to baby
their babies, Commons and Miller said. Parents should feel free to sleep
with their infant children, to keep their toddlers nearby, perhaps on a
mattress in the same room, and to comfort a baby when it cries.

"There are ways to grow up and be independent without putting babies through
this trauma," Commons said. "My advice is to keep the kids secure so they
can grow up and take some risks."

Besides fears of dependence, other factors have helped form our childrearing
practices, including fears that children would interfere with sex if they
shared their parents' room and doctors' concerns that a baby would be
injured by a parent rolling on it if it shared their bed, the pair said. The
nation's growing wealth has helped the trend toward separation by giving
families the means to buy larger homes with separate rooms for children.

The result, Commons and Miller said, is a nation that doesn't like caring
for its own children, a violent nation marked by loose, nonphysical
relationships.

"I think there's a real resistance in this culture to caring for children,
"Commons said. "Punishment and abandonment has never been a good way to get
warm, caring, independent people."

Reprinted with permission of Dr. Commons.

Nicole - posted on 01/20/2010

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and some more : http://www.associatedcontent.com/article... and http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou... and here is a nice bibliography of sources not just a band of angry hippies: P. Heron, “Non-Reactive Cosleeping and Child Behavior: Getting a Good Night’s Sleep All Night, Every Night,” Master’s thesis, Department of Psychology, University of Bristol, 1994.
M R Rao, et al; Long Term Cognitive Development in Children with Prolonged Crying, National Institutes of Health, Archives of Disease in Childhood 2004; 89:989-992.
J pediatrics 1988 Brazy, J E. Mar 112 (3): 457-61. Duke University
Ludington-Hoe SM, Case Western U, Neonatal Network 2002 Mar; 21(2): 29-36
Butler, S R, et al. Maternal Behavior as a Regulator of Polyamine Biosynthesis in Brain and Heart of Developing Rat Pups. Science 1978, 199:445-447.
Perry, B. (1997), “Incubated in Terror: Neurodevelopmental Factors in the Cycle of Violence,” Children in a Violent Society, Guilford Press, New York.
Schore, A.N. (1996), “The Experience-Dependent Maturation of a Regulatory System in the Orbital Prefrontal Cortex and the Origen of Developmental Psychopathology,” Development and Psychopathology 8: 59 – 87.
Karr-Morse, R, Wiley, M. Interview With Dr. Allan Schore, Ghosts From the Nursery, 1997, pg 200.
Kuhn, C M, et al. Selective Depression of Serum Growth Hormone During Maternal Deprivation in Rat Pups. Science 1978, 201:1035-1036.
Hollenbeck, A R, et al. Children with Serious Illness: Behavioral Correlates of Separation and Solution. Child Psychiatry and Human Development 1980, 11:3-11.
Coe, C L, et al. Endocrine and Immune Responses to Separation and Maternal Loss in Non-Human Primates. The Psychology of Attachment and Separation, ed. M Reite and T Fields, 1985. Pg. 163-199. New York: Academic Press.
Rosenblum and Moltz, The Mother-Infant Interaction as a Regulator of Infant Physiology and Behavior. In Symbiosis in Parent-Offspring Interactions, New York: Plenum, 1983.
Hofer, M and H. Shair, Control of Sleep-Wake States in the Infant Rat by Features of the Mother-Infant Relationship. Developmental Psychobiology, 1982, 15:229-243.
Wolke, D, et al, Persistent Infant Crying and Hyperactivity Problems in Middle Childhood, Pediatrics, 2002; 109:1054-1060.
Stifter and Spinrad, The Effect of Excessive Crying on the Development of Emotion Regulation, Infancy, 2002; 3(2), 133-152.
Ahnert L, et al, Transition to Child Care: Associations with Infant-mother Attachment, Infant Negative Emotion, and Cortisol Elevations, Child Development, 2004, May-June; 75(3):649-650.
Kaufman J, Charney D. Effects of Early Stress on Brain Structure and Function: Implications for Understanding the Relationship Between Child Maltreatment and Depression, Developmental Psychopathology, 2001 Summer; 13(3):451-471.
Teicher MH et al, The Neurobiological Consequences of Early Stress and Childhood Maltreatment, Neuroscience Biobehavior Review 2003, Jan-Mar; 27(1-2):33-44.
Leiberman, A. F., & Zeanah, H., Disorders of Attachment in Infancy, Infant Psychiatry 1995, 4:571-587.
www.AskDrSears.com

Johnny - posted on 01/20/2010

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Lianne Schiavi
yesterday, 3:23 pm

Nicole- my daughter is a very stubborn little girl u do not no her and wot i go thro 2 get her 2 sleep, and i didnt like the fact that she was sick but she dont do it every nite, and she is sick on purpose my doctor and health visitor hav told me its fine and one day she will eventually stop.
so thanx 4 ur post!!


That is just completely and totally retarded!!!!! No kid is sick on purpose. At least not at the age of 2. Get a clue! They completely lack the ability to come up with such a devious plan. And I don't need to "no" your kid to know that. She's sick because she is getting hysterical because her needs are not being met. CIO CAN be done with compassion, something you clearly lack. One day she will eventually stop, because she will have completely given up on ever being contented.

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~Jennifer - posted on 01/21/2010

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Quoting Mandi

Jenn- thank you for posting that....umm I guess we can go ahead and lock or delete the thread. I (being the original poster) didn't mean for it to be a discussion about how the method is right or wrong...i was simply trying to find out those mom's that did use it..how old their children were. It's not a fricken debate. Every child is different and every parent is different...don't attack each other for different parenting styles....


Thank you, Mandi. I will lock the thread since you don't mind my doing so.

Kerri-Ann - posted on 01/21/2010

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I let my two cry it our for naps and bedtimes when they were 7 and 8 months old. They would never go down for me and now they do.

Linda - posted on 01/21/2010

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Well, I'm a grandma now. I have always loved the blessing of rocking my babies to sleep. They are all productive adults (except for my 10yo son). He (10 yo) sleeps well in his own room but occasionally likes mom to come up and tuck him in! My girls slept on their own early on...staying in their cribs....I never let them cry it out though. My son slept with us for a few years.... My parents had friends who let their children cry it out...didn't work so well. They are grown and have children of their own now. We have our kids for such a short time and they will be independent sooner than you think. Snuggling, loving and soothing them is okay. For me, there was no reason to let them cry.

~Jennifer - posted on 01/21/2010

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Ladies,



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If you wish to flag a comment for review, please do so, but please also refrain from replying to other members simply to insult them.







I will lock this thread if this topic cannot be debated in a calm, respectful manner.



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Thank you.





~Jenn~

CoM Moderator

Ganesa - posted on 01/21/2010

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Nicole~ Anyone who can use Google could cite just as many articles backing up the CIO method as you did disputing it. We both know you went nuts finding every possible link to prove you're right and everyone else is wrong. Parenting is individual, and I have 3 perfectly healthy children, who are not traumatised, neurally damaged or any other dang thing. Maybe you disagree with Lianne, and that's fine, I would never have allowed my kids to get sick or to cry for so long that they were unconsolable. I was careful, and loving and they knew I was there. To say that's abuse is deplorable. I don't agree with parenting that is over involved, wher the kids are held constantly, have everything done for them and have no reason to therefore learn to problem solve or learn PATIENCE. I am curious how many children you have? I had 3 in 3.5 years, and believe me sometimes they had to cry a little and wait because the good Lord only gave me two hands and failed to give me the ability to clone myself on demand. I could post 6 pages of articles by experts to back up my theory on parenting but I won't. And instead of attacking Lianne maybe you could see your way to trying to help her find a better way, encouraging her to find a better solution or at least supporting the fact that she is looking for help or why else would she be here? We, as mothers, shouldn't be tearing eachother down, but helping instead. We have ALL made mistakes, we all do things differently but that shouldn't give us licence to rip at eachother. You sound like an intelligent, thoughtful woman, who is passionate about your child and that's great. I am too. I just do things differently. No reason for name calling or put downs.



Lianne~ It is not normal for babies to cry until they get sick. Get a different doctor. Comfort is the only way to make her stop, and she can't be 'taught' by ignoring her. I know you're frustrated, but maybe she is having night time fears or separation anxiety. Try something different for a while...I wish you luck.

Jenna - posted on 01/21/2010

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never used the cry it out method dont see the point of it. I dont know why any parent would want there child to cry and especially when going to bed. bed time is suppose to be a nice relaxing time. Its a time to spend with your child. Read a book, Rock them to sleep, tickle them to sleep, play with there hair ect. Its a bonding moment. Its much faster than having them cry it out and soothe themselves to sleep.

Amie - posted on 01/21/2010

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CIO is NOT abuse, IF done correctly. (Lianne Schiavi is a perfect example of the WRONG WAY)


My children we used the CIO it out method from 6 months on all 4 of them. So long as you go back and rub their back, stroke their face, etc. and reassure them you are there. It WILL work with little stress. The longer a parent waits the harder it is to teach them to self soothe. This does not EVER mean leaving them alone to just cry until they fall asleep. That is irresponsible parenting! By starting at 6 months it's made it that much easier. They fall asleep faster since they are so small, you know their schedule and they don't often fight sleep. They have their feed/bottle, lay them down in their crib and let them get accustomed to it. It doesn't happen over night but it shouldn't take longer than a few weeks when starting this young.

None of my kids have problems with going to bed alone, they have no problem with waking up at night (unless they have a nightmare but that's a totally different issue) and they are all happy children. Teaching them to self soothe did not damage them, but we never let them cry until they puked or passed out from fits. That is NOT what CIO is about at all!!

Nicole - posted on 01/20/2010

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it wasn't inappropriate it got flamed because the poster had a breastfeeding photo up. unless you think public nursing is wrong o_O I will find another way to the link because it is quite relevant, I assure you.

Jodi - posted on 01/20/2010

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not to mention the PERMANENT Neurological damage that even minimal CIO causes here is a link: http://apps.facebook.com/circleofmoms/tr... and another http://apps.facebook.com/circleofmoms/tr...




Ok, that first link goes to a page with a message "The link you are trying to visit has been reported as abusive by Facebook users.", so it is evidently an inappropriate link. The second link has nothing to do with CIO specifically, it is to do with the Babywise feeding schedule, which is not necessarily relevant.

Keisha - posted on 01/20/2010

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I see nothing wrong with using the method. I personally don't use it because for my daughter it doesn't work at all, it actually makes trying to put her to bed worse. I just rock her to sleep instead.

Firebird - posted on 01/20/2010

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"That is just completely and totally retarded!!!!!" Carol Sapriken, I don't see any need for you to be talking like that!

Nicole - posted on 01/20/2010

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a baby's only want is to have it's needs met. letting them cry is in no way meeting their needs. try reading the No Cry Sleep Solution. ta!

Ganesa - posted on 01/20/2010

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CIO is not child abuse any more than nursing a 4 year old is. I sure as heck wouldn't nurse a toddler but I respect other mothers right to do it if they choose to. You shouldn't say things like that, it makes you look judgemental and uneducated. My kids are all happy, well adjusted children and were hurt not at all by a few tears shed at bedtime. To accuse others of abuse is unecessary and pretty rude...and judgemental people make me sick. I almost barfed reading your post.

Cyndi - posted on 01/20/2010

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I have not tried it, but I have heard there is a good book or sleep method of "no cry sleep solution". Everyone has their opinions about what works and it's figure out what works for one. Every kid is different.

Ganesa - posted on 01/20/2010

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How long are you letting her cry? For me the max was 15 minutes, then I would go in, not speak to them at first, but gently lay them back down, rub their back softly for a minute and then say quietly, "you're ok, time for sleep" Then leave again. I repeated that until they fell asleep. At first it took a looong time but within 2 weeks they were fussing only a bit and then sleeping soundly.It's not an easy way, I guess but it did work for me.

[deleted account]

my son is 21 months an i wouldnt say i practice the cry it out method, but if my son is throwing a fit i wil let him do an i will ignore the situation till he is done

HANNAH - posted on 01/20/2010

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Lianne~





Maybe you just need to give it some time, what is it that you are trying to get your little one to do/not do? You may just have a very strong willed child, my 2 year old is much more strong willed/stuborn than my 5 year old is, and it takes him longer to decide that he's not going to get what he wants, but it usually works. You do have to choose your battles, something just arent worth the fight, you'll have to decide how important each issue is to you and your family. Good luck!

Kristen - posted on 01/20/2010

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My daughter is two....But i use the cry it out for tantrums. My husband goes and picks her up after a min or two but i'll let her cry it out. I think its cause i spend more time with her that i don't give in.

Ganesa - posted on 01/20/2010

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8,10 and 12. And while it was hard for me at first, it worked! All 3 times. :)

HANNAH - posted on 01/20/2010

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I have a 2 and 5 year old. Its a battle of wills at my house most of the time. You have to be strong and let them know you love and respect them and their ideas/personalities, but that you are the boss.



I do feel guilty sometimes, but i dont let them know otherwise they would use it against me, once they decide the fits wont get them what they want, they dont have them as often.

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