Does anyone believe that an unborn baby has a right to live?

Michelle - posted on 06/02/2012 ( 529 moms have responded )

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Does anyone believe that abortion is wrong. Even if the child is so-called going to have a disease. I look at it this way. All babies have every right to live, no matter what. If a mother can't take care of the baby, give the child up for adoption to another mother who wants one.

Also, I see it this way. A baby is supposed to so called have a disease, like turners or down syndrome..and shouldn't be born because of it...All because of financial problems and etc.
What if you were born normal, with no problems and one day something bad happens...you ended up with a bad disease that causes you to not be able to take care of yourself. It would be the same, wouldn't it. You should just well be killed because of financial reasons and it's just too hard to handle...

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

[deleted account]

"...if she is a woman at all, I would think she would love the baby and want to keep him/her"

But that is not the case and a very selfish statement to make of ALL women facing an unwanted pregnancy.

The answer for you is quite simple: you will never be in a position to need an abortion. But you do not have the right to cast judgement upon another woman who is contemplating this legal medical procedure. it has no impact on you, your family, or your life.

[deleted account]

There is a huge difference between a baby with Downs Syndrome versus a baby that is incompatible with life, such as a Trisomy 18 baby.

I know 2 women with DS children-both are school age, and both have given their families immense joy. Sadly, I know a very strong women who had to make the heart-wrenching decision when it was discovered that her baby had trisomy 18 in addition to half a heart, and another birth defect. This baby was incompatible with life. It was certain-and she and her husband needed to come to terms with the loss of their 2nd baby in utero. They needed to decide if she will continue to carry her baby until she naturally died, or decide on a late term abortion. When her first baby died in utero, it was determined that she was carrying a dead baby for 5 days, and the toxins were building up, causing her to become violently ill. She was 28 weeks. I would never want to be in that position.

But the fact is, an abortion is a legal, medical procedure and a decision made between a patient and a doctor. You may not like her reasons for seeking an abortion, but she is not breaking any laws by having one. No one has to like, understand, or agree with a woman for seeking to terminate a healthy, or even unhealthy baby, but it is not for you (I say *you* in general) to cast judgement upon or insist she is evil. She is making a decision that is best for her, at that moment in time in her life. A woman seeking an abortion does not impact any of us.

Krista - posted on 06/02/2012

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We need to walk a mile or two in the shoes of a woman with a problem pregnancy before we judge. If we've never undergone a problem pregnancy ourselves then it's time to count our blessings instead of pointing the finger. But there are never simple answers to any of the questions raised in such an emotive topic.

Beautifully, beautifully put.

Honestly, I do not think that you will find one woman in here who LIKES the idea of abortion. It's heartbreaking. Absolutely. The very thought makes me ill.

However, as you said, unless we eliminate unwanted pregnancies, abortions will ALWAYS happen.

Plus, I am very much a realist.

Let's say that we decide to make abortion fully illegal, except in cases of rape, life of the mother, or if there is a fetal abnormality incompatible with life.

That seems pretty reasonable, right? I think most pro-lifers, except for the most hard-core ones, would be happy should a law like this be passed.

But how do you administer it?

So let's say abortion is legal if the woman has been raped. Fine. Does the woman simply have to claim rape? Does she have to have pressed charges? Does she have to have obtained a conviction in court? What if her rapist is never caught? How does she "prove" that she has been raped, in order for her abortion to be legal?

And, let's say abortion is legal if the mother's life is in danger. Does it have to be that she is 100% guaranteed to die? 90%? 75%? What if the odds were 50/50 and she is not allowed to have an abortion and dies? Does her family have any recourse against the state?


It's all well and good to say, "Abortion should be illegal except for in situations A, B and C." I'm sure that makes people feel a bit warmer and fuzzier about the whole thing. But they're just words. The feasibility of administering a law like that is just insane.

Want to reduce abortions?

Then help prevent unwanted pregnancies. Fight for accurate sex-ed in schools. Support stiffer penalties for rape and fight against a culture that objectifies women. Fight for free prenatal care and subsidized daycare, so that unintentionally pregnant women can actually envision how they'll survive with a baby.

All of THAT will do more to prevent abortion than a million hours of waving signs with bloody fetuses on them.

[deleted account]

Should we kill ectopic babies just because they're going to die anyway? AT what point do you draw your line?

And frankly, I'm all for assisted suicide and euthanasia.

Johnny - posted on 06/03/2012

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No matter how you feel about abortion, making it illegal will not and has never stopped it from happening. Abortion has taken place throughout human history and continues to happen at the same or higher rates in nations that outlaw it as it does in nations that legalize it. So what we get to choose is how and when those babies die and whether or not it is likely to kill the mother too. If you're lobbying to make it illegal, then you are lobbying for women to die in dangerous illegal abortions. That's not pro-life.

By all means, seek and fight hard to limit the rates of abortions. Encourage broad sex education, the use and availability of birth control, the support for struggling families and women. Make sure that women don't see having a baby as a sentence to poverty and misery. All of those things have been shown to reduce abortion rates. Making it illegal has not.

This conversation has been closed to further comments

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Angel - posted on 06/10/2012

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Brandy, I agree!

btw, I thought this was closed, or was my account having a glitch?

Jodi - posted on 06/10/2012

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"I believe a baby has a right to their life. I believe that women who opt to use abortions or the morning after pill as birth control options, instead of proactivley preventing their pregnancy are ignorant."



I think you will find that there aren't really many people at all who *opt* to use abortion INSTEAD of birth control. It would be an absolute minority of women who would think like this (if at all). Your post makes it sound like most women who have abortions think like this, which makes you sound equally ignorant.

Brandy - posted on 06/10/2012

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It is those who lump all abortions into one "evil deed" who are ignorant, Sarah. No one should be forced to carry a child for 9 months if a) they don't want to and terminate before 20 weeks, b) have been raped and the child resulted from that, c) the pregnancy could harm the mother, d) the child has the potential for a debilitating condition that will cause much suffering.



I don't know how the morning after pill compares to abortion. It's not much different than the birth control pill. Birth control isn't 100% effective. If an unwanted pregnancy resulted even though birth control was being properly used, shouldn't the mother have a choice? Why do a bunch a cells that cannot survive outside of the mother get to dictate the woman's life? It's not a child until it can survive outside the womb (after 20 weeks)...so while a woman IS killing cells, she is NOT killing a child.



What about what's right by the woman? Her mental and physical health? What about her husband and other kids (if she has them)? Does no one matter but the newly formed cells in her body that could one day be a child...but isn't yet?



There's so much more thought that must go into this...not just "don't do it, cuz you kill a baby". THAT is ignorant.

Sarah - posted on 06/10/2012

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I believe a baby has a right to their life. I believe that women who opt to use abortions or the morning after pill as birth control options, instead of proactivley preventing their pregnancy are ignorant. The child did not request/ask/demand to be created. A man and woman did that. I believe if they did that irresponsibly and aren't ready to be parents, adoption is the best choice. Yes, I know pregnancy is hard on a woman, I have had 2 kids,both emergency c-sections, stii .. I believe that unborn child has a right to their life and the mother should at the very least be willing to carry that child to term, aches and all, to provide that child with the life those two people created. It's not fair to kil that child when you are able bodied, it's simply selfish. You have already messed up once ... yyou have the oppourtunity to make another families dream ome true and also NOT KILL YOUR OWN CHILD in the process. Nine months is not a long time in the big picture. I understand being scared and confused, talk with a counselor first, don't just run to the first UNplanned parenthood you can find and herd yourself in with all the other teens.. Do whats RIGHT BY YOUR CHILD, this is your only chance.

[deleted account]

That is always how abortion debates run. In all the forums I've ever visited, they never end well.

[deleted account]

Yes Angel, I think it should be closed also. The "debate" is going around in circles. No matter how each side presents their argument, they will not convince the other side to reconsider, to change their views or to understand another's point of view. Michelle L has had enough response to her question to know how people feel. I think this conversation done....

Angel - posted on 06/08/2012

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Julie I am sorry for what your daughter went through and Jen I am sorry for what you went through. We all have differing opinions but since this thread has became a history lesson and not what it should be on my opinion I think this thread should be closed (just my opinion)

[deleted account]

As for my kids learning how to cope with real life situations my daughter at 17 was on a youth trip when she was taken away by three men raped and left for dead! How's that for real life and so on subject as well! Yes my own flesh and blood had to deal with not only the rape but the loss of her innocence and trust in others. She deals with that tragedy every day of her life! My daughter made her own choice and she chose life for her child and she's a great mother and still a strong young woman.
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I was raped at 16 Julie. It was pretty damned traumatic and left an impact on my life as is to be expected. I certainly can empathize with her.

However, if I had been taught all my life that my virginity was sacred and my body was a temple to my husband, it would have been a lot more traumatic because by using words like sacred, the loss of it means you are sullied, dirty. My mother never emphasized staying a virgin although I knew that was what she would have preferred when it came to making my own choice but having never had that mindset of sacred hymens, I think I recovered easier.

Becs - posted on 06/07/2012

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without sounding rude, your not really asking the question , you are stating your opinion. bit of a difference. This subject is very delicate, and not one that might attract the same ideas and thoughts that you have.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 06/07/2012

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Okay since this is an abortion debate thread and we're getting off topic with US, Canadian and English History I'll share this instead:



http://jezebel.com/5898508/the-war-on-wo...



Oh, in case you don't want to read the entire article., here are the stats instead. Keep in mind this is from a mainly US website, so most of the stats are for the US. Kinda sad when you think of it:



Over the last year and a half or so, conservative lawmakers have been feverishly at work enacting laws designed to shove the whole government into your vagina, since it's for damn sure not going to be looking over your boss's shoulder to make sure he's not screwing you over. Here's a run-down of the War on Women, in convenient digestible bits that hopefully won't interfere with that pregnancy you're working on.



1,100

Total number of reproductive rights-related laws introduced by state lawmakers in 2011.



604

Number of abortion and reproductive rights-related provisions introduced at the state level as of June 1. http://www.guttmacher.org/media/inthenew...



8.2%

The US unemployment rate.



0

Number of jobs created by wasting time debating hundreds of reproductive rights-restricting laws.



408,425

Number of children who were in the US foster care system at the end of 2010. http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/stats...



96,772

Number of those children with caseworkers who said they were waiting to be adopted.



4,230

Number of adoptable foster children who would not have stadium seats if you tried to put all of them into the Rose Bowl in Pasadena, California.



25

United States' ranking on Save the Children's list of best countries for mothers. http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2...



0

Number of podium pounding speeches given by "pro-life" Congressional leaders on how embarrassing it is that the US has the fourth highest maternal mortality rate of any industrialized nation. (This could be easily prevented by instituting UHC in the US)



Between $2 and $6

Amount of taxpayer money saved for every $1 spent on birth control. http://www.brookings.edu/research/report...



$11 billion

Cost of unplanned pregnancies to the US taxpayer — per year.



$11.2 billion

Amount Broadway musicals contribute to New York City's economy per year.



$3.71 billion

Facebook's net revenues in 2011.



12 zillion

(Est.) Number of extremely irritating, almost Broadway musical-level overwrought debates Americans have gotten into about contraception on Facebook.



$270,000

Estimated cost of raising a child from birth to age 17 in the US.



$10,784

Average amount of additional income an American woman would earn annually if she were a man.



$431,360

Amount of money an American woman can expect to be stiffed out of during the duration of her working career.



$16,704

Amount a woman can expect to spend on birth control pills that cost $48 per month, if she takes them for the duration of her fertile years.



99%

Percentage of sexually active American women who will use birth control in their lifetimes.



Between $5,000 and $20,000

Average cost of childbirth in the US.



142

Number of advertisers who fled Rush Limbaugh's radio show after he called activist Sandra Fluke a "slut" and sarcastically suggested she perform in internet porn videos in exchange for taxpayer subsidized birth control.



142

Number of seconds a non-masochist can listen to Rush Limbaugh talk in that voice of his before they want to hire a man with meaty forearms to temporarily disable their sense of hearing.



72

Number of hours the state of South Dakota proposes women wait between receiving an ultrasound and having a legal medical procedure. That's 3 days.



72

Approximate number of hours that Christians believe elapsed between when Jesus was buried and when he rose from the dead.



0

Number of things Jesus said about abortion or zygotes.



47

Number of Senators who voted against the Paycheck Fairness Act. http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/20...



0

Number of Republicans who voted in favor of the Paycheck Fairness Act



445

Number of elected legislators currently serving in the House or Senate who are men, out of 538 total.



55%

Proportion of immigrants to the US who are female.



3.5

Times more likely a Native American woman is to be victimized by domestic violence than a white woman. http://www.now.org/nnt/spring-2001/nativ...



221

Number of House Republicans who voted in favor of a version of the Violence Against Women Act that stripped protections for undocumented immigrant, Native, and LGBT women. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/16...



0

Difference in human-ness between an undocumented immigrant, a Native American woman, an LGBT woman and a straight white American woman with a passport.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 06/07/2012

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Actually...People left England and came to America because they wanted freedom from the British ruler who at the time was King George the 3rd, but more importantly they wanted religious freedom.

Julie, wrong time period. The Pilgrims came over from Holland in the early 1600's because their children were becoming too Dutch. They had escaped England under the reign of King Charles who didn't approve of their religion.

The Dutch and French Catholics came to North America for land and to trade. The French Protestants or Huegonaugts came for religious freedom. The Acadians were forced to come to the English Colonies in America by the English in Canada because they refused to take sides in the French and Indian wars.

There was French Nobility who fled to the former French colonies to escape the French Revolution.

And there were English soldiers who defected from the British upon reaching the Americas in search of their own land and freedom.

Do you want to continue?

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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Actually Julie, many 'founding father's' came in search of land. Because in England at that time you had to be of the gentry to own land. In the new world you could get your own tract with a grant from the King of France or England depending on where you're from and where you were going.


Actually...People left England and came to America because they wanted freedom from the British ruler who at the time was King George the 3rd, but more importantly they wanted religious freedom.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 06/07/2012

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Actually Julie, many 'founding father's' came in search of land. Because in England at that time you had to be of the gentry to own land. In the new world you could get your own tract with a grant from the King of France or England depending on where you're from and where you were going. Oh and which time frame My husband's ancestors came to Canada to escape the French Revolution. Well okay one of them came from France to England to escape the Revolution.



In the mid 1800's hundreds of men from some rebel uprising in Upper Canada were sent to Australia as punishment. So Australia wasn't founded on religious freedom- just mostly by prisioners.



ETA: In seventeenth century New France (now Quebec) women were expected to have children by order of the King of France and men were ordered to marry. They had these Les filles de Roi sent over chosen by the King. So Canada was mostly founded to make new land holdings for France. There were punishments for intentionally miscarrying too such as fines and jail time. I hope no one is suggesting we go back to that.

Brandy - posted on 06/07/2012

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Our founding fathers fled here to escape RELIGIOUS persecution.
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Umm, no kidding. Who's arguing they didn't?? For the last time...anyone who argues that the US was founded upon Christian values and that it is a Christian nation IS doing so from the point of revisionist history. So...what's this got to do with abortion again??

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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I'm not interested in revisionist history and I'm not part of Christian nationalism. Everything I've said is from history books. Our founding fathers fled here to escape RELIGIOUS persecution.
I look forward to that debate. lol

Brandy - posted on 06/07/2012

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Take it is as you see it. You have your parenting style, I have mine. To me, it's all good.

LOL...oh, if that subject comes up here and I see it, I can guarantee you I can talk circles around Christians (or anyone else) who have no idea about the founding of this nation. I've done it many times. :) It's one of the biggest things that irk me...people spouting off about revisionist history.

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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How are they going to learn to be responsible adults who can cope with things on their own as adults if I'm tagging along behind them everywhere they go? Your parenting solution may be to coddle them

@brandy- that comment is the one im speaking of as knocking my parenting Oh and...

Because of this, I don't feel the need to hover.

I don't hover. I'm not a "helicopter" mom. My kids are well aware of birth control. As far as u being able to talk circles about the history of our nation we will wait and see when that debate comes up because I don't want to upset everyone here by going off subject again.

Brandy - posted on 06/07/2012

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Julie, I say again: Basically, what I'm saying is, you have your way of parenting, I have mine. We all parent differently. The important thing is to talk to our kids and not leave them in the dark. They need to know they don't have to have sex to enjoy the company of their boyfriend/girlfriend. But, they also need to know that if they do decide to take that next step, if they are not careful (by using protection) there could be consequences to their actions. THAT is what will help lower the abortion rates...not talking about abstinence only, or completely outlawing abortion. (I'm not saying you said to outlaw abortion...I was talking in general to those people on here who have said that.)

So, how exactly was I knocking your parenting decisions? So long as your choices don't become laws that affect everyone, it's all good. You can teach your kids based on your beliefs that they should save themselves for marriage, that's fine. Realistically, I know from experience, that is not likely to happen. So not only do I teach my boys that abstinence is a way to go, I also teach them that if they aren't going to wait, then using protection is the only other way to go. I teach them to respect women as well as to have responsibility.

And I also disagree that abortion needs to be regulated. Trying to regulate it is precisely the problem, as Jenni pointed out.

Jenni - posted on 06/07/2012

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Julie- "I would agree with an abortion and I never said to out law it I said it needs to be regulated."

I posted this way back on page 14 but I think it needs to be restated in response to your above statement. I disagree that abortion needs to be regulated and I think my country is a poster child that legality of abortion is not necessary and women/doctors do a fine job of policing themselves:

In my country Canada, we are one of three (I believe) countries where there are no criminal laws on abortion, whatsoever. It is a decision entirely between patient and doctor. A fetus/baby does not have legal rights until they leave the womb. However, we have relatively low cases of abortion compared to all other developed countries that possess criminal laws against abortion and our rate of abortions past 22 weeks is at par with countries that do have restrictions on term abortions. The vast majority, 98% of abortions are preformed before 14 weeks. This is for the simple fact that you will be hard pressed to find any mother or doctor who will agree to a late term abortion unless it is medically necessary to save the life of the mother.

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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I didn't say to out law abortion I was correcting someone who put those words in my mouth.
I also want u to know I don't follow my kids around 24-7 and cuddle them! They are very aware of the world around them and most likely more so then a lot of other children! The church were involved in is a huge missions church and my family and I have been to Africa where my children saw starving children and poverty like they've never imagined! We've worked in downtown Denver, Los Angeles, Dallas, and ft worth with the homeless. They go to public schools and they go on youth mission trips where I don't go with them. I just don't believe in teaching condums and the pill first. I teach my sons that they are to respect women as God does the church and that sex is for marriage. I teach my daughter that her body is her temple and no man but her husband is to have that. And If a boy can't respect that then he's not worth her time. It's respect that I teach my kids and I dont thunk that by letting them have sex will help them cope with life.
As for my kids learning how to cope with real life situations my daughter at 17 was on a youth trip when she was taken away by three men raped and left for dead! How's that for real life and so on subject as well! Yes my own flesh and blood had to deal with not only the rape but the loss of her innocence and trust in others. She deals with that tragedy every day of her life! My daughter made her own choice and she chose life for her child and she's a great mother and still a strong young woman.
I'm not saying it's everyone's choice that was hers and she's happy! I love her w all my heart! Real life coping Enough for you?
I go on double date w my kids when they are dating age and that's my choice and so far there's been no judgement from the other parents in fact they like the situation. I don't think that children should be allowed to date byvthemselves until they are adults. The only reason I still go on dates w my daughter is because she has asked us too.
I'm not knocking how u raise ur kids so pls don't knock mine. U don't know me or my families life situations.
I said in extreme circumstances such as a child with tay-sachs I would agree with an abortion and I never said to out law it I said it needs to be regulated.

[deleted account]

And I'm sorry for the US history lessons. I know this is an internation site but sometimes it just irks me when people misrepresent one of my personal heroes (Thomas Jefferson).
I will stop with my last post and will not go into it again.

[deleted account]

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.
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They did that for a very mercenary reason - to control costs on printing. Look it up.

Brandy - posted on 06/07/2012

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Oh Julie (shakes head) you so do NOT want to go there with the "Christian nation" bs. I have argued circles around Christians who don't know their history and continue to claim this delusion. Because this board is supposed to be about abortion and not your religion or how you THINK this country was founded, and because others on here have already brought to your attention the errors in your "history lesson", I won't say anything else...other than let's keep it on topic, shall we?

A quick recap - you think abortion is murder and want more strenuous laws put into place. Somehow, even after stats were posted, you still seem to think outlawing abortion will cause it to decline. (Just like by not legalizing pot, it's use is declining...NOT. BTW...I'm all for legalizing pot as well.) Just because you teach your kids abstinence and follow them around, doesn't mean that's the tried and true method that keeps teens from getting pregnant. I want to teach my kids responsibility. How are they going to learn to be responsible adults who can cope with things on their own as adults if I'm tagging along behind them everywhere they go? Your parenting solution may be to coddle them...and that just may keep them from getting pregnant or getting someone else pregnant. My parenting solution is to be totally honest with them and let them make their own choices without a parent following them around 24-7. I keep an eye on my kids, but I let them be individuals without a hovering mother around them all the time. I do draw the line when my teenage son wants to go a couple towns over and spend the night at someone's house whom I don't know. He had a girlfriend that he wanted to visit and then said he and a friend would spent the night with another guy friend. Um, no. However, in our little town, I let him have more freedom. I have an open communication line with my kids. Because of this, I don't feel the need to hover.

Basically, what I'm saying is, you have your way of parenting, I have mine. We all parent differently. The important thing is to talk to our kids and not leave them in the dark. They need to know they don't have to have sex to enjoy the company of their boyfriend/girlfriend. But, they also need to know that if they do decide to take that next step, if they are not careful (by using protection) there could be consequences to their actions. THAT is what will help lower the abortion rates...not talking about abstinence only, or completely outlawing abortion.

Firebird - posted on 06/07/2012

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@Jen ~ LOL @ preggo prison! "Seriously, if the unborn baby's life is counted as more valuable than the mother, why not enact such measures to 'protect the helpless?' " PLEASE don't give them ideas!!!

Krista - posted on 06/07/2012

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Good point, Gale. I think this just wound up coming up because a lot of people were suggesting that their own beliefs should form the basis for law, and the "America is a Christian nation" statement was used as justification.

But you're absolutely right. This is an international site. And as we've seen all around the world -- when we have theocracies, the first thing to go is often the rights of women to be seen as anything other than sex objects and/or baby factories.

Gale - posted on 06/07/2012

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There should be a warning on this thread, 'FOR AMERICAINS ONLY' there are other country here too, please keep your history out of this I have my OWN country history not interested in America's. Really if you want a history thread start one this one is about abortion remember?

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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he assurances were contained in the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 and were intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers. Article 11 was originally a letter and not a part of the original treaty.
These treaties were written because of the Barbary pirates torturing Christians but to tell that story would take way to long just look it up.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 06/07/2012

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American Ex Pat living in Canada. I'm originally from NY and live in BC.

Johnny, because the Christian Right seems to be taking over America.

Johnny - posted on 06/07/2012

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And Australia began as a penal colony. They seem to have successfully moved on and evolved. I'm not even sure why the "Christian nation" thing keeps coming as a response to "YOUR religion shouldn't govern MY choices"?

Angela - posted on 06/07/2012

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I'm British and over and over again on these threads I read something that only applies to Americans. I live in England. This website is global, not American.

[deleted account]

The orignal pledge written by Baptist minister Francis Bellamy went like this, "'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

He wantedt it to include equality in it but knew that it would cause friction with regard to equality for women and african americans.


http://www.oldtimeislands.org/pledge/ple...

History lesson #2. Promise - no more.

[deleted account]

One thing u need to remember is our founding fathers who signed our declaration were Christians. Our country was at first considered Christian. Btw all our money says "one nation under God".
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Thomas Jefferson was NOT a Christian. He outright stated that we should view the virgin birth and resurrection in the same way we view Athena springing forth from Zeus' head. He liked some of Jesus's philosophy which is why the Jefferson Bible delets any and all supernatural references. Ben Franklin openly admitted to being a deist as did many others. There is strong suspicion based upon his writings that Thomas Paine was an atheist but we cannot verify that. However he was NOT a Christian.

The treaty of Tripoli ratified in the earliest portion of US history clearly states that the US was NOT founded on the Christian religion.

Coinage had that phrase put on it during Teddy Roosevelt's presidency and he strongly/firmly objected to it, considering it both blasphemous and also anti separation church/state. It was added to paper currency in the 1960s SPECIFICALLY to combat Communism and to show those red devils we weren't godless like them. A lot of people objected both on a Christian front who (like my very Christian mother) considers it terribly blasphemous and that is a government endorsement of a very specific god (read into the time frame and you'll see that both that and the addition of 'under god' in the POA) were put forth by the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic organization) and they clearly meant it to mean the Christian god which is direct violation of the First Admenment because Congress is not meant to endorse 1 religion over another.

And that's your history lesson of the day.

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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Oh and btw u are right the original pledge did not have "under God" in it but do u know why it added? The decision of Congress to add "under God" to the Pledge was, at least in part, a reaction to the Cold War with Soviet Russia. One of the differentiating factors between Soviet Communism and American Democracy was that the Soviets officially advocated atheism. The phrase "under God" was seen, therefore, to reaffirm an important distinction between the two competing Worldviews.

Krista - posted on 06/07/2012

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Julie, nobody is upset about the fact that your faith influences your beliefs. Nobody is upset about the fact that ANYBODY's faith influences their beliefs.



The reason why a lot of us say "don't bring religion into it" is because we have some people here saying that abortion should be made 100%, across-the-board illegal. And they are basing that upon their religious beliefs.



At THAT point, these people are saying, "I think that you should have to live according to the tenets of MY faith, regardless of what your own beliefs are." They are suggesting that actual legislation should be based upon their religious convictions.



If someone says, "I believe that abortion is wrong, in all circumstances, because God thinks it's wrong" (or something like that), then I have no quibble with that. I might still debate with them about it, but I'm certainly not going to blame someone for having an OPINION. It is when people take the next step and suggest that their opinion should be the law of the land -- THAT is when I get tetchy and remind them that their faith, like anybody's faith, has absolutely no place in the legislative process.

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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I'm not saying I want to force u to be Christian! I'm just saying u can say all u want "don't bring religion into this" however there are a LOT of people who believe rhe way they do BECAUSE of their religious beliefs so attacking someone based on their religious beliefs is not at all fair. This subject is a very touchy one as seen by all the posts here. When I mention God in my posts its because that's the foundation for my beliefs not because I'm trying to force it on u! Just like when someone tells me they are atheist I don't say "don't force ur unbelief on me!"
We are just answering the questions and posts as honestly as we can and it happens to be based around God. Don't yell and say I'm forceing my religion on u! I'm not. I'm giving my opinion based on my belief just as your giving urs based on ur unbelief.

Krista - posted on 06/07/2012

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When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

Well, they may have envisioned it, but they certainly didn't put it into practice. Quite the opposite, in fact:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

That was from the Treaty of Tripoli, written by President John Adams.

That is not to deny your claims -- it is true that America has a strong Christian HISTORY and influence. But that is VERY different from saying that it was founded as a Christian nation. My country, Canada, also has a strong tradition of Christianity. But officially, it is a secular nation. Which is as it should be.

Think of it this way, ladies...what if, one day, Christianity is the MINORITY religion in America. Hey, it could happen. Would you want another religion, like Islam, forming the basis for the laws that you must abide by?

No?

Then why do you think it is fair to impose your religious beliefs upon us by way of law?

Michelle - posted on 06/07/2012

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Megan,
As for "standing your ground"..yes, people whom post and say their beliefs and don't change their words are standing their grounds on belief. I stand my grounds on belief. I don't believe in abortion. It is murder. As for rape and incest.. Yes, I feel for the mother for rape. I do however think that the baby is still part of the mom and shouldn't abort because of rape. I think if you don't want the baby because of the rape. Have it and give to another. But if the woman would have the baby and see that baby, It might change her mind because of seeing that he or she is part of her. Maybe the mom won't feel that way. But at least the baby is giving a chance to live. The baby shouldn't be tortured to death from abortion , for it isn't his or her fault. Why should the baby be killed for what the father did?No matter wether the mother has the baby or not, She is always going to have that on her mind.
As for incest...Some girls are of course raped by the father, but it is still their child. In some cases,..incest is concential..Which is however discusting in my book. I have come across a woman who however does this. It down right , sick!

I do however, understand your point on the mom having the chance to die from having the baby. I carried my son and he had to be born because of me and him could have died. I had a c-section because of it. I wouldn't go back and not have him what so ever. If I would have an eptopic pregnancy.. Well, I would diffently have to confirm it. For sometimes, the doctors are wrong and abortion is performed. Sometimes a baby can be in the fallopian tube and not come down all the way and all of a suddent they do. This has happened to my friend and she has a healthy baby boy. You cannot go by the doctors all the time...
I wouldn't want to be in that situation. I wouldn't want to leave my husband and other children behind and then I wouldn't want to kill my unborn baby either. That would diffently be hard to do. In my opinion.
As for my daughter...I wouldn't want her raped of course. It would however be her decision. She would have to live with what she feels. I don't agree with abortion. But, I would allow her to make her decision. But, I believe since she is like me, she wouldn't be no mean have an abortion. I could be wrong... For I haven't been raped. I have been in the situation of almost being raped, but I got away from it. SO, If it would have happened all the way...and I got pregnant...No, I wouldn't have an abortion, for the baby is part of me. I know that the baby's father did what he did and he will get punished for it. But, there is no scence in a baby being hurt because of someone else's actions.

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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The pilgrims, as you will recall, were, Christians fleeing Europe in order to escape religious persecution, and they literally began their stay in their new land with the words, “In the name of God, Amen.”
The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution.

New Haven (Connecticut) and Massachusetts were founded by Puritans who wanted to reform the Church of England, who later became known as Congregationalists. Roger Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island based on the principle of freedom of conscience. Pennsylvania was established by William Penn as a Quaker colony. Maryland was a haven for Catholics from Protestant England.

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.
Just a little history lesson. Sorry to go off track.

Krista - posted on 06/07/2012

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My point is when something is made legal a lot more people jump on the bandwagon!

You know...you can repeat something all you like. That isn't going to make it true.

And yet AGAIN, I will remind you that several pages ago, I posted from some statistics that show EXTREMELY clearly that criminalizing abortion does absolutely nothing to reduce abortion rates. All it does is drive it underground and increase the odds that both fetus AND mother will die.

Oh, and here's another instance in which you're wrong:

One thing u need to remember is our founding fathers who signed our declaration were Christians. Our country was at first considered Christian. Btw all our money says "one nation under God".

Many of them were deists, not Christians. The "one nation under God" was only added to your currency in the 1950's, during an era of religious revival.

Your country was NOT founded as a Christian nation. If it had been, do you not think that there would be some mention of God (other than the "year of our lord" reference in the date) in the Constitution?

In fact, the founders opposed the institutionalization of religion. They kept the Constitution free of references to God. The document mentions religion only to guarantee that godly belief would never be used as a qualification for holding office—a departure from many existing state constitutions. When Benjamin Franklin proposed during the Constitutional Convention that the founders begin each day of their labors with a prayer to God for guidance, his suggestion was defeated.

AND, the original Pledge of Allegiance also made no mention of God.

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

THAT is why we want religion kept out of this. You are certainly allowed to let your religion influence your opinion, but it should NOT influence the laws of the land. Otherwise, we are a theocracy and no better than Yemen or Saudi Arabia.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 06/07/2012

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Julie, I believe what Jodi meant is why should a man who would never be in the position where he would have to make a decision like this feel that he should have any say what a woman does with her body.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 06/07/2012

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Julie- Not everyone on here is in the US. I'm an American Ex Pat- I live in Canada where we don't care what you do with your UHC. America wasn't founded completely on Christianity. It was founded on the idealogy of FREEDOM OF RELIGION. And that means ALL religions not a selective few. Heck there are plenty of atheists and agnostics opposed to abortions or at least elective abortions. My husband is an Atheist and is completely against abortions unless the mother's life is in danger or in cases of rape or incest (just like my devout Christian birther friend down in Lousiana) And the funny thing about the In God we Trust on the US money, there are Free Mason symbols on our money.

I believe as Jodi and possibly others on here have stated that if the US does go back to banning abortions it won't limit the abortions done, it will just leave everything open to deregulation and back alley abortions like pre Roe v Wade.

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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Jodi- for u to say his opinion is not accepted is absolutely ridiculous. You do realize that if this EVER goes up for a vote it won't be just women voting he will have a vote also.

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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Jodi- for u to say his opinion is not accepted is absolutely ridiculous. You do realize that if this EVER goes up for a vote it won't be just women voting he will have a vote also.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 06/07/2012

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Michelle, she's not exactly standing her ground IMO she's stating her opinion as have the rest of us. But in a respectful manner so it doesn't come off as offensive to those who don't believe as she does. And appearantly you only agree if someone is wholely pro life. Not if someone is only for abortions in cases of rape or incest or if a child is pregnant and not for selective abortions.

Angela is also right that murder by its definition is the killing of a born person. The baby (and this is a pro-choice mom of 2 who refered to her girls by name once she found out the sex and picked a name) before the end of the first trimester while he or she may have the formation of fingers, toes and a heart beat cannot live outside of the mother. The eyelids, skin and organs aren't fully functional until 5 months gestation and if a baby is born at five months he or she will need to be in NICU for months and require a lot of extra care.

AGAIN Michelle, since everyone has a right to live shouldn't that include the mother who is carrying the baby who is a risk to her life? Don't my other children have the RIGHT to grow up with their mommy? Or are we as pregnant moms only 2nd class mobile incubators capable only of giving birth? Do our families not need us since they may have the baby who may be resented by its siblings and father? And if the pregnancy is so fatal that the mother and child may die then whom would be saved by remaining pro-life no matter what? Would you tell your 12 year old daughter if she'd been raped, sorry sweetie, but mommy is pro life so you HAVE to have that baby even though it could permanently damage you? I hope not.

Julie - posted on 06/07/2012

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I'm not saying that by to outlaw abortion. I think there should be more rules and regulations. If the same woman continues to get abortion after abortion after abortion because for some odd reason she doesn't feel the need to use birth control I think, and yes this may sound harsh, she should have her tubes tied. Just like I think a rapest should have his u know what cut off. He'll never rape again and she won't ever have another abortion. My opinion only!!!
However I do believe that if we outlaw it (not saying we should) it would cut down on how many people get abortions. Murder is against the law... Just think if we decided that hey it's ok to kill someone as long as u have a good reason behind it how far do u think our murder rate would go up. Everyone was wanting pot legalized and now in some states medicinal pot is legal all u need is a rx. Now u see grandmothers in nursing homes smoking pot and in California it's hard to not see someone with it! People are out on street corners with big signs saying "25$ pot"!! Lol
My point is when something is made legal a lot more people jump on the bandwagon!
Im very sorry but I can't remember everyone's names here so just bear with me. I know someone said that young girls don't have a choice when their parents want them to have the abortion. Herein lies the problem with not educating our youth. There is a paper u can print up on line that u sign and place in ur pocket. When ur parents take u in to see the doc u hand him this paper and he's not allowed to touch u or ur unborn baby. We have bush to thank for that :).
Aa far as the education of our youth.... We as parents do need to teach our children more about sex and not just how to protect from pregnancy and STD's but they need to understand what an emotional and taxing thing this is on yes a young mans body but more the young women's body and heart! I believe in teaching my kids abstinence however I also as their parent am willing to go the extra step and set boundaries for their dating life and follow thru. That's where abstinence teaching fails. It's not a schools job to teach that it's a parents job to teach it ONLY if they plan to follow thru.
I also believe that same principal applies if u plan on being pro life. You can't just tell a woman not to have an abortion andrhen once she choses life you think ok my job is done and leave her do deal with everything that comes after! That's not fair. I work with a ministry that not only helps young girls to make the decision to chose life but we help them on the whole journey while they are pregnant and after they have their baby. We offer medical, mental, and financial aid. We help them learn how to be not just a good mom but a great mom and if they choose to put their baby up for adoption we support them before during and after. The last semester we had 32 girls all under the age of 20. They are all doing great and they and their children are thriving.
One more thing I just want to throw out there and it will most likely mean y'all will jump down my throat for it but here it is....
I see a lot of people who keep saying to keep religion out of this... One thing u need to remember is our founding fathers who signed our declaration were Christians. Our country was at first considered Christian. Btw all our money says "one nation under God".

[deleted account]

This came from a dictionary..So plain as day..Abortion is murder... Abortion is slaughtering a baby or fetus...The doctors burns them and rips them apart.
People literally needs to check in about how abortion is performed. How would one like to be ripped apart...limb from limb? Or burned alive. For if the baby wasn't alive...It wouldn't have a heartbeat.
----------------------------------
Which is exactly what they do during a ectopic murder. Hey again, speaking strictly on viability. That BABY too has a heartbeat. So when you rip it apart limb from limb to yank it from the tube, I wonder what it feels.

But oh yeah - that's not murder, that's self-defense even though when its' not viable in the womb, it is.

No one is suggesting that abortion is a happy -go-lucky things that girls plan for a girls-night-out. No one is suggesting that it isn't unpleasant, nasty and icky. I think abortion is outright dreadful but it's not my decision. I have no authority to tell my neighborh what she can or cannot do about her pregnancy. Any more than I can force her to have a c-section, home birth, or to force her to leave her baby at the door of the fire house.

[deleted account]

Still curious about my suggestion. Have them wait till the miminum amt of time for viability then c-section out the living precious baby and immediately sign away parental rights. Let the state pay for the neo-natal care. Or are we going a step further and say that she has to carry to term before settling on adoption?

Because if that's the case, we've moved beyond simply stopping her from aborting the baby. We've now instructed her on what other medical procedures she must do.

And since so many people feel that fetal rights trump mother rights, why are we stopping at abortion? We all know that frequent moderate exercise is healthful for the baby so why not mandate how much a mother shoudl get and should she fail, lets' send her to preggo prison where we can ensure she will get the requisite exercise.

Same with diet. Mom eating too many naughty foods or gaining too much weight. SAme thing - pack her off, force feed the diet that so many feel is appropriate.

There is evidence to suggest that pain management during labor is both harmful to the baby and goes against the Biblical curse on Eve that she must suffer during labor. So why not ban all pain medications with the exception of c-sections and even then, just a local so she is mentally aware of that baby all the times.

NOthing of course for after the baby is born because let's face it, no one cares about them then.

Now I know darn well that many are rolling their eyes heavenward but why? I'm only half-joking. Seriously, if the unborn baby's life is counted as more valuable than the mother, why not enact such measures to 'protect the helpless?'

Michelle - posted on 06/07/2012

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Angela....

Right one Girl...You are standing your grounds...Go for it. I agee.

An unborn baby is a baby right from the start. Yes, a body, and so has cells, but the baby is a human life. In my opinion...abortion is killing. And the killing is murder.

The diffinition of killing....Murder, slaughter, assasination, fatal, lethal, murderous,an act of causing death, deliberately,deadly, homicidal,kill, mortal.
This came from a dictionary..So plain as day..Abortion is murder... Abortion is slaughtering a baby or fetus...The doctors burns them and rips them apart.
People literally needs to check in about how abortion is performed. How would one like to be ripped apart...limb from limb? Or burned alive. For if the baby wasn't alive...It wouldn't have a heartbeat.
Yes, this world gives a choice on abortion...But to my opinion , it is wrong!!!!! Every life has right to live...even if it were an unborn puppy.

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