Does anyone believe that an unborn baby has a right to live?

Firebird - posted on 06/03/2012

You know what Michelle? Don't even let that bother you. It's healthy to bring up controversial issues from time to time. However, when you do, just make sure you're prepared for them to turn into a full blown debate like this. Also, I'd like to add that this has been one of the most tame abortion debates that I have ever seen on COM. Congratulations ladies!

Michelle - posted on 06/03/2012

Karen leggit,
I started this post to see what others say about it. If you think it is shame on me...for starting this posts. Well that is your opinion. If you don't like it..don't post anything.

Firebird - posted on 06/03/2012

Ha ha ha I hate to be the one to break it to you Angela, but you ARE pro-choice! You don't have to agree with the fact that women get abortions, you don't have to like them. You can abhor abortion, but since you still believe it is the woman's right to choose, you are pro-choice. That's all it mean to be pro-choice.

Sally - posted on 06/03/2012

Im not going to put up a long post . Im just going to state my own feelings. I have been very lucky never to have to make a choice about keeping or aborting. I don't like it being used as birth control but having said that what business is it of mine what another women choses to do with her womb, zero, it doesn't effect me.

Kellie - posted on 06/03/2012

I think every women has the right to make the decision that is right for her. There are various reasons women choose this path and I don't think anyone has the right to decide whether or not their reasons are valid or not. It's the mother who has to carry and give birth to the child. The mother who has to emotionally, physically and financially support the child.

Many here have asked about disabled children and whether their parents have the right to abort. Are you going 2 help raise that child? Are you going 2 be there for the child through Medical procedures etc? It's a child that you have nothing to do with. It may be easy for you tm say, give birth and just deal wth the child you've been given but your not the one who has to raise that child... Parents need to determine whether or not they are emotionally, physically (sometimes older parents are noysically able enough) and financially fit enough to deal with such a child. The solution of adoption for severly disabled children is simply not plausible. It's hard enough to get healthy children and home... It's even harder for a disabled child.

I personally could not go through with an abortion, except for Medical reasons (not compatible with life, and severe disabilities that would render them in pain for a short life, or my own life) and rape. As much as I'd like to think I'd look past the violence of their conception, I honestly don't believe I could do it. However I would never judge a woman for making a decision for her life. The assumption that all unwanted pregnancies are the result of women not using contraception, is ridiculous. A friend of mine fell pregnant on the injection and using condoms. My own daughter is a pill baby. Sometimes all the pre cautions in the world don't work, and we're faced with making a decision that will affect the rest of our lives...

I don't know, nor have I heard of many women who take upon this decision lightly. Many posts here seem to insinuate that women just get them for the sake of it. Alot of thought goes into these decisions. Don't pretend to know what a woman is thinking or feeling or experiencing in her life...

Angela - posted on 06/03/2012

Many pro-lifers Sapphire (as I’ve said before in an earlier post on this thread) will concern themselves with other people’s abortions which doesn’t affect their own life or family etc … They do this because the unborn foetus does not have a voice or a choice in whether a pregnancy continues. They attempt to be the voice of those unborn children.

The vast majority of pregnancy terminations abort healthy foetuses who do not carry disabilities or health problems, they are not conceived of incest or rape, their continuing residence in the uterus of their mother does not threaten her life or overall wellbeing. They are conceived from normal consensual sex, frequently between legally married partners or those who at least have some form of commitment to one another. They are aborted for “social” reasons. These include financial and economic status of the parents, parents (or at least mothers) who may be very young, mothers who may be quite old (e.g. their existing children may be much older than the coming baby), and ill-timed pregnancies which occur at an inconvenient point in the parents’ careers or education. This covers the majority of modern abortions.

Rape, incest, the possible threat to the health of the mother, a child who will be born with disabilities etc … are generally seen as more “worthy” reasons for ending a pregnancy. How would you feel, as an adult individual, if you discovered you owed your very existence to a criminal act perpetrated by your biological father on your biological mother? Do you think “Rape is bad, but this crime can’t be SO bad as it brought ME into being?” Or do you think “I have no right to exist – because of the circumstances of my conception?” And that’s just examining the dilemma from the child’s viewpoint – the mother will also have strong feelings about giving birth to and raising the child bred of rape.

Even abortion for social reasons isn’t always as evil/unnecessary/wicked/selfish as some would insist. Some parents make this decision to safeguard the lifestyle enjoyed by their existing children. We know that money doesn’t bring happiness, but it pays for quite a lot of security and peace of mind. A friend of mine, living in a very rough, crime-ridden area feels the extra money she spent on her kids kept them out of trouble with the Law. And financial/economic reasons rate significantly highly as reason for abortions.

My friend had an abortion for “social” reasons in her early 30’s. It was an unplanned pregnancy during a relationship with a man which turned out to not be on a permanent footing. She did not want to be pregnant, but came around to the idea shortly after testing positive. Her partner insisted she got an abortion. She was very upset and tearful but didn’t see a future for herself, her child and her 2 older children (approaching their early teens) without support from a partner when there would be a new baby in the house. She got the abortion. He phoned her several times around the time of the procedure – always with the same question “Have you dealt with it yet?” That was his only worry. Once she confirmed it had been done, he never phoned her again. Eleven years later she remains angry with him because of the sense of betrayal and his urgency that she abort which was clearly over and above everything else. And there is still the sense of loss – however much the abortion was wanted, however “sensible” a solution it was. Hormones are strange.

As a pro-lifer, I CAN respect the opinion of a pro-choicer. I didn’t have to make the tough choice that they made, I’m not facing the other challenges they may have in their lives, some of which may have led to their decision to abort. Another friend of mine aborted because her child was conceived too soon after her last baby she felt she would’ve been unable to cope. It was her own choice and no-one forced her into it but she still remembers the date, nearly 22 years on.

I am not without empathy for other people’s circumstances. I can feel this way and still be pro-life.

Sharon - posted on 06/03/2012

I really wasn't going to comment on this thread but I feel compelled to comment after reading Kristen's last post.

Ok, so the kids that received transplants did benefit greatly from one woman's decision not to abort, and as a result many other people were affected also. BUT, if I abort a fetus tomorrow it does not have far reaching consequences for anyone except perhaps me. If something hasn't happened yet then how can it be affected? If I don't chose to abort a fetus tomorrow, then I guarantee that many people will be affected because I will be bringing a life into this world that will touch many people during his/her lifetime in good ways and in bad. So yes, in a way it is only the woman who is affected by the decision to abort.



And to pick up on another person's comment (can't remember who it was, sorry) as for ectopic pregnancy, how is this even relevant? So when I was having life-saving surgery to suction out two and a half litres of blood from a ruptured fallopian tube, does this make me guilty of abortion, or as some have termed it, murder?

Kristin - posted on 06/03/2012

Another "sweeping statement" made by at least two people on this thread is that the decision to abort hese babies does not affect anyone but the mother. This decision not only affects the mother, it affects anyone the child would have met or influenced in any way after being born.

The story was told earlier about the mother who gave birth in order to donate the organs to other babies. If that baby had not been born, it would have affected the experience of the baby's immediate and extended family members, the babies who received the tranplants, their families, the friends they made because they had the opportunity to grow up, and anyone inspired by hearing or reading the story. If another woman made a similar decision after hearing the story, the same group of people touched by her actions would be affected all over again. No one ever knows how one person's life may affect others.

Sherri - posted on 06/02/2012

Furthermore, medical tests are often wrong. I don't believe in abortion, but even if I did, I would never have one on the basis of any medical test, even an ultrasound. Perfectly normal babies have been killed because the test was wrong, and other babies who were supposed to be horribly handicapped have done much better than expected. Let God decide!

However, now medical technology has further testing that is 100% accurate in detecting these things such as amnios and CVS's that actually test the babies DNA and look at every chromosome. No denying the facts when you actually look at the DNA. So if you opt to go for the further testing you can yes unequivocally find out 100% if your baby is healthy or not.

Sapphire - posted on 06/02/2012

What's always interesting with this topic is how I can say to a pro lifer "Hey I respect your opinion but I disagree." A pro lifer would NEVER say the same I return. Why cant a pro lifer respect a pro choicer's opinion?

Sherri - posted on 06/02/2012

I want to know for everyone who is saying put it up for adoption what about a mom who can not afford medical care. So she doesn't get any prenatal care and then delivers the baby in a bathroom somewhere? Is this a better option?



2nd Who exactly is now going to pay for all the 100's of thousands of extra children who are now in foster care? Ding ding ding that's right that would be us, who now has to pay for these childrens food, care, clothing, medical care etc etc etc. So can you afford to pay a considerable amt. more in your taxes to care for all these children? Many of whom will never be adopted and will be bounced around from foster home to foster home till the day they turn 18. Then thrown on the streets to fend for themselves. Wow what a great life that is isn't it?

Firebird - posted on 06/02/2012

"I would not want to deprive any child of any length of time it had on this earth, regardless of the "quality" of that life." I'm very sorry Carol, but I have to say this.... Are you mad? There are babies born who are incompatible with life, because their parents had that same mentality. Guess what? Constant excruciating pain IS their quality of life! Some only make it a few hours but others live as long as 100 days. 100 days of suffering. How could anyone wish that on another human being?

Sapphire - posted on 06/02/2012

Pro lifers still cannot explain why I would be severely harrased for making a legal medical decision. Any one care to elaborate? Why would anyone really care what I may or may not do if faced with an unwanted pregnancy? What's it to them? How does it impact you your family or your life?

Sherri - posted on 06/02/2012

Nope don't believe abortion is wrong. When I had my testing for my last son. His testing originally came back positive we immediately went to have a CVS done which is 100% accurate, if that had came back positive we would have made the most agonizing decision of our life but we would have aborted.

#1 reason it was very unfair to our 3 healthy children to have our attention taken away and their lives forever altered for a mental handicapped child.

#2 because we are older parents and when we pass this child would for the rest of its life have to live in a home. Not something I ever wanted to have to happen to one of my children

#3 because we could not under any circumstances financially handle a medically needy child. It would have sunk us financially and most likely would have ended our marriage as well.

No it isn't even relatively the same to kill a fetus vs. a born human being why you ask? A fetus is literally a parasite that has to live off of you to survive it is not a baby until it can actually be viable outside of the womb. Hence why abortion is legal and murder is not.

Carol - posted on 06/02/2012

Jodi, it is seldom certain what any child's future will be. I have become very cynical about medical predictions, because they are so often wrong. Life is precious, even life with a disability, and I would not want to deprive any child of any length of time it had on this earth, regardless of the "quality" of that life. Human life in itself is infinitely valuable, just because it is human. That applies at the end of life too.

Sapphire - posted on 06/02/2012

And I will respectfully disagree with the statement about the babay being its own person. When the baby is dependent on the mother then the mother makes the decisions. No one takes up residence in my womb without permission. (I think Jenny or Joy says that and I like that statement) abortion is a legal medical procedure. I make the decisions that are best for me at the time. Something the size of a poppy seed does not dictate my decision.

Jen - posted on 06/02/2012

It's not self-defense. It's murdering an innocent baby just becaus they probably wont' live.

Abortion btw is a very safe procedure when compared with other obgyn procdedures. If you want to use the word 'many' , please give you stats because otherwise, you're just repeating rhetoric.

Now yes, some women have severe emotional problems after an abortion. Some women also suffer severe emotional trauma following a miscarriage. Some women have PPD to the point of psychosis yet we rarely mention those items as side effects of pregnancy.

Crap happens and sometimes it drives us over the edge.

Jodi - posted on 06/02/2012

"But the baby within is not her body, it is a separate person, and deserves to have a chance to make its own choices."

I always find this issue of choice very interesting, because even by choosing NOT to abort, your are inflicting your choice on the baby, and if that child is severely disabled or in pain, how it is our right to make THAT decision for them?

Carol - posted on 06/02/2012

When you mention ectopic pregnancy, you have a different situation. Self-defense is not murder. If the physical life of the mother is in danger, as in an ectopic pregnancy, then ending the pregnancy is a reasonable choice. But I want to note that some ectopic pregnancies are the result of sexually transmitted disease. We women must be careful with our bodies, because there are consequences for our mistakes. Also, remember that abortion is not a safe procedure. Many women suffer serious complications and even death, and others experience severe emotional problems. I don't wish those on anyone.

Carol - posted on 06/02/2012

A woman should surely make choices about her own body. But the baby within is not her body, it is a separate person, and deserves to have a chance to make its own choices.

Carol - posted on 06/02/2012

Furthermore, medical tests are often wrong. I don't believe in abortion, but even if I did, I would never have one on the basis of any medical test, even an ultrasound. Perfectly normal babies have been killed because the test was wrong, and other babies who were supposed to be horribly handicapped have done much better than expected. Let God decide!

Jen - posted on 06/02/2012

Ectopic is different. If A woman is going to bleed out and both her life and the babys life is coming to an end, of course it's got to be removed and baby would not be viable. It's not like they can transplant it into the uterus and it will keep growing, it's not a plant.
-----

The minute you say it isn't murder just because the baby will die anyway and interestingly, you use terminology generally used by pro-choice people, you lose the argument that abortion is murder.

Sapphire - posted on 06/02/2012

Ya know, here's the problem with abortion debates- you have people on both sides of the issue that are deeply passionate in their beliefs. You have the ultra-religious zealots who quote scripture as their way to support their stance. These people will never change their position and the most extreme will resort to hateful propaganda as a systematic effort to persuade against abortion. These are the people that never acknoweldge the opposition, yet use bullying name-calling, bomb abortion clinics, and use their small children to hold up distasteful posters (after all, it looks good in the newspaper). To them, pro-choicers are simply evil to the core.

On the other hand, people that identify themselves as pro-choice openly acknowledge the opposition. And for most pro-choice people, many simply refrain from quoting bible scripture, passing around leaflets and flyers, spewing false propaganda, and tedn to view the topic from another perspective. The woman's body, and the integrity of her body to do with as she wishes. Remember, that a woman seeking an abortion is not committing any crime (unlike those pro-lifers who bomb clinics and murder the clinic staff).

Not one pro-lifer has ever explained to me why it's any of their business what I may, or may not do with my body if faced with an unwanted pregnancy, or if having to make a gut-wrenching decision if the baby was incompatible with life, or yes, even has DS markers. A decision that I make for my body is for ME, and me alone. It does not impact any pro-lifer. It does not impact your lives, your family. Basically, butt out of another woman's womb. You're not wanted there.

Karen - posted on 06/02/2012

Jodi, I am not saying to Police everyone having an abortion to determine Why they are having one. Abortion is LEGAL in this country. I do not think I would ever be able to do it myself, but I am NEVER going to tell another woman what she can or cannot do about having an abortion or not! I may not Agree with Why she chose to have one, (as my sister in law chose to have one!) but I do my absolute best to Not judge her! .................... Now on to the original poster, Michelle L. WHY did you post this question? I get the feeling you just wanted to see how much of a frenzy you could whip up! It's obvious that everyone would be completely divided on the issue. Some are religious about it, saying it's a sin no matter what, others like myself, think it's tolerable in certain situations, others say all situations are acceptable and some that, though not religious, think it's wrong mo matter what! WHY try to start a riot? Shame on you Michelle L for even bring up such a touchy subject!

Dora - posted on 06/02/2012

I doubt that I would have ever had an abortion for any reason except if the baby and I would both die if the pregnancy were to continue. However, none of my children were the result of rape, or incest. That could change my feelings about it. I also never had an unwanted pregnancy, in which I couldn't see any way to support that little baby and the already existing children who would go hungry while I would be off work. Unless you can be in someone else's situation you can't really know what you would do (or just want to do). I can't judge another person's actions or thinking. I thank God for my two children, and also for not having a dozen.

Amy - posted on 06/02/2012

Well if your going to use info from the New Testament, let's jump back a bit a read, Psalms 139:13..."you knit me together in my mothers womb"

Yup everyone always picks and chooses what suits them and their need or the moment. I've heard atheist and the like saying not to judge them for what hey believe or not. Really?! well God said a whole lot more than not to judge, but there goes the picking and choosing.

Regardless of what anyone believes, life is important whether those little eyes have seen the light of day or not, diseased or not.
Every life is equally important whether they are a believer or not.
Every sinner is as equally important as the saint, as the matter of fact, the sinner more so because they still need God.

Bottom line, EVERY life has a purpose

Firebird - posted on 06/02/2012

That's just it Jodi, there's no morally acceptable way to determine who "has a right' to an abortion, and who doesn't by Karen's standards. Everyone has the right to an abortion. At least they do where I live. I may not agree with abortion being used as birth control, but I would never stop fighting for a woman's right to choose. Not my uterus, not my choice!

Angela - posted on 06/02/2012

I work with disabled people including those with Downs Syndrome.

It's not the only type of disability that occurs, but it's one of very few that are actually detectable in utero.

Legal definition of murder means the victim is a born person.

Jodi - posted on 06/02/2012

" No one should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy simply because they do not want the baby that was conceived during Consensual sex. Now with that said, if a woman is raped or the victim of incest, then she has Every right to an abortion."

So how would you police who has a right and who doesn't have a right to have an abortion?

Amy - posted on 06/02/2012

Ectopic is different. If A woman is going to bleed out and both her life and the babys life is coming to an end, of course it's got to be removed and baby would not be viable. It's not like they can transplant it into the uterus and it will keep growing, it's not a plant.

But you Angela said Murder (as in the pre-meditated unlawful killing of a born person) or at least used it as a back up. So do you say murder is only the born or unborn???

I have two friends, both which were told they needed to terminate because their babies would not survive. They both said no. One had Mermaids syndrome along with something else. She did not survive past day one, the other is perfectly healthy after saying she wouldn't survive. She turned three in March.

But why kill a perfectly healthy baby? One who would survive? There are many downs syndrome children and adults who have a wonderful quality of life.

Angela - posted on 06/02/2012

Are these weblinks any help?


http://cathapol.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/e...

http://vox-nova.com/2007/05/27/the-moral...

Firebird - posted on 06/02/2012

You know, I didn't even think of that Jen! I agree.

And Karen, you just stated my personal views on when abortion is acceptable. Though I will also add, that if a fetus is diagnosed with something like Trisomy 18 and is incompatible with life, I would abort in that situation, I'm sure of it. I do not agree with abortion being used as a primary form of birth control.

Jen - posted on 06/02/2012

Hi Jen! A Christian woman I once spoke to (from a Pro-Life organisation) said aborting an ectopic pregnancy was NOT morally wrong as the infant stands absolutely no chance of viability for very long during gestation and moreover endangers the mother's life. It's not baby's life versus mother's life by any means. It's a question of removing the infant who is not going to survive anyway and save mother or lose both. To many on both sides of the abortion debate this isn't even classed as abortion.

I had a relative went through this many years ago. She insisted she didn't have an abortion. However she was from a Catholic family and abortion's a dirty word! But she had this ectopic pregnancy removed with the approval of both parents
-0----------------------
I've heard this argument and it doesn't wash. It' either murder or it's euthanasia which is also murder.

This argument has it both ways. It's killing an unborn baby just because it most likely won't survive.

Jen - posted on 06/02/2012

That's possible Joanna but I don't think so. I think many times, they fully recognize what it is but don't want to call that a murder. They only want to envision the women getting abortions as sluts who have a revolving door on their bedroom and then abort willy nilly.

Karen - posted on 06/02/2012

I am not entirely clear as to what you are asking here. If you are asking if a child should be aborted simply because of a detected "disability such as downs syndrome?" The answer in my opinion is "No." This is a very touchy subject for a lot of people, most people really. If the child and or mother is at imminent risk of death, then yes, the pregnancy should be terminated, as is the case in ectopic pregnancy. There are other women, a friend of mine as a matter of fact, who physically cannot carry a baby to term, which she sadly learned through 3 terrible miscarriages. She ended up getting her tubes tied and ultimately had a hysterectomy because of the issues. She was informed that if she got pregnant again she would need to abort it, or risk her own death. If a person is using abortion as a form of birth control because she had unprotected sex and "accidentally" got pregnant, that abortion is Wrong and should not be allowed. In that case, the child should be given the chance at life and given up for adoption. No one should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy simply because they do not want the baby that was conceived during Consensual sex. Now with that said, if a woman is raped or the victim of incest, then she has Every right to an abortion. No woman should have to face that sort of pregnancy if she doesn't have to. Another friend of mine was raped and Did keep her child. I personally do not know what I would do. I do not think I would be able to keep the child. I don't know if I would even be able to carry it and then give it away after the birth. I can not say since I have not been in that position. I feel for any woman who finds herself having to make that decision.

Angela - posted on 06/02/2012

Hi Jen! A Christian woman I once spoke to (from a Pro-Life organisation) said aborting an ectopic pregnancy was NOT morally wrong as the infant stands absolutely no chance of viability for very long during gestation and moreover endangers the mother's life. It's not baby's life versus mother's life by any means. It's a question of removing the infant who is not going to survive anyway and save mother or lose both. To many on both sides of the abortion debate this isn't even classed as abortion.

I had a relative went through this many years ago. She insisted she didn't have an abortion. However she was from a Catholic family and abortion's a dirty word! But she had this ectopic pregnancy removed with the approval of both parents.

Jen - posted on 06/02/2012

Yeah, sin exist. I'm very aware of what Gensis says, along with the rest of the word But where did it say it was ok??
---
The bible absolutely does not define abortion as murder. IN fact, what it does say is that if a man injurs a wife causing her to miscarry, he must pay a fine to her husband.

That's it.

I challenge you to give me any scripture that addresses abortion. Don't give me thou shall not commit murder because the children and unborn at the city of Midian (Numbers 31) were slaughtered at Yahweh's behest. So give me some thing that specifically states it is wrong.

Firebird - posted on 06/02/2012

@Jen, I think a lot of people avoid answering that question (I've seen it happen time and again), is because perhaps they don't fully understand the consequences of an ectopic pregnancy.

Jen - posted on 06/02/2012

Abortion is NOT part of the human culture, its part of the secularized, worldy culture. Any kind of killing, murder etc is...assisted or not.
---

If that were true, then very very old treatise on herbs would not include information on what plants to use to terminate pregnancies. Tansy, rue, mistletoe. All dangeorous but all abortifacients and have been known to humanity for hundreds of hundreds of years.

Jen - posted on 06/02/2012

COMIS, is it murder to end an ectopic pregnancy?

Why do people why away from this question? I asked it in the 2nd post of this thread.

IS IT MURDER TO KILL AN UNBORN BABY WHO HAPPENS TO BE IN THE FALLOPIAN TUBE?

Yes or no? It it's murder when it's in the womb, then it's murder there too.

Angela - posted on 06/02/2012

Just because you do not indulge or have never indulged in certain behaviour patterns which are part of human culture, doesn’t mean you’re not human. Millions of people in this world are unable to read and write. Literacy IS a part of human culture though! Are illiterate people not human?

Angela - posted on 06/02/2012

The Bible doesn't say that sin is OK. I never claimed that it did. Nobody believes that sin is OK, I don't believe it's OK at all. I'm still a sinner of course - along with the rest of the human race.



At no point during this discussion have I said sin is OK. Or to be more precise, at no point have I said that abortion is OK or that murder is OK. I have stated, more than once, that I am opposed to abortion, and to murder.



Regarding sin:



Romans 3.23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"



Regarding "human culture" of matters both good and bad:



Ecclesiastes 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."



And Amy, you still have not responded to my post clarifying an earlier post in which I did NOT say that an unborn foetus will never miss what it never knew - as you claimed I had said.

Amy - posted on 06/02/2012

Yeah, sin exist. I'm very aware of what Gensis says, along with the rest of the word But where did it say it was ok??
So if its a human pattern, then I along with many others probably need to call ourselves something else cause I don't believe or practice that human behavior.
When a woman is murdered do they not call it a double murder or a murder in the 1st or 2nd.

Murder is murder whether inside or outside the womb.
But whatever helps you sleep better at night *shrug*

Angela - posted on 06/02/2012

Amy, your last post sounds like a somewhat garbled version of one of my posts! Read it again please!

I never said that it was OK for a foetus to be aborted because "it didn't know what it was missing". I actually said:

"For me the difference is quite profound. In the case of euthanasia, the person whose life is to be ended is the same person making the choice. With abortion, the unborn infant is the one whose life will be ended but ISN'T the same person that makes the choice! I also view the difference between the two in this way - abortion ends a life that has scarcely begun - euthanasia ends a life that has been lived (and hopefully at some point may have been enjoyed and worthwhile to the individual whose life it is). An unborn foetus facing abortion will never have that experience, or that chance."

Put more simply, a person whose life is to be ended by euthanasia makes that choice for themselves, moreover they're likely to have had good times, enriching experiences etc ... at some point in their lives. A foetus whose life is about to be ended by abortion does not make that choice for himself/herself. And that foetus will never have the chance to experience those good times and enriching experiences because their life is about to end before it's scarcely begun! That poor unborn infant will never have those opportunities.

I'm absolutely appalled that you misread my post. At no point did I say it was OK to abort because the unborn baby didn't know what it was missing.

Do you read your Bible with the same careless skimming over of words - adding conclusions or meanings that weren't even implied, much less stated?

Julie - posted on 06/02/2012

Last time I checked, it States in the Constitution ALL are entitled to LIFE, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness. Even the unborn have a beating heart, 10 fingers, 10 toes etc. They do not deserve death because their mother does not want them. And I'm speaking about the women (both young & old) that like to use it as a form of birth control.

Amy - posted on 06/02/2012

Someone says they are against abortion but ok with assisted suicide,ok whatever. but then say its ok to assist with someone who wants to die cause that person wants to but to the fetus to never had a chance to live its ok cause they don't know what they are missing?
That's just messed up

Angela - posted on 06/02/2012

Definition of the word "culture" = The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.



So .... it's a human culture. All cultures are human cultures as they are based on the behaviour patterns etc .... of HUMANS.



Murder (as in the pre-meditated unlawful killing of a born person) is probably also part of human culture - but as far as I know, not to anywhere near the same extent as abortion. Remember (if I may refer to Genesis in the Bible) that the firstborn human child (Cain) to the first human couple (Adam & Eve) was also the world's first murderer.



And I can state all this with confidence and the courage of my own convictions quite happily and it doesn't detract from my own conviction that abortion is wrong.



But that's very easy for me to say when I've never had (or felt I needed) an abortion myself.



Being able to recognise ANY behaviour pattern as an ongoing part of human culture (which is exactly what it is when in occurs again and again from generation to generation) doesn't mean that I agree it's a healthy or desirable culture!



Of course I'm opposed to murder. And I've already said I'm opposed to abortion.



I only wish to add my viewpoint to this debate (which is NOT supposed to be an argument or a battle of wills). I would prefer to do so with logic, rather than with semantics but if people wish to apply loose definitions to certain words (either through design or through poor vocabulary) then I need to go into semantics. Apologies if this offends.

Lady Heather - posted on 06/02/2012

I'm sure this will prove to be a very productive discussion. :)

Amy - posted on 06/02/2012

so does murder and the like...but it doesn't make it right. Neither did I read that Michelle said this discussion was meant onlyto those that believe killing in any form or fashion is acceptable.
If u believed like I do, I would kndly point out where biblically stated. But if one doesn't believe in all that hogwash then it matters not.
Many believe it or not who are from the hidden corners of the world who have never even heard of Christianity still know right from wrong as in, murder is wrong. It doesn't take a believer to figure that one out. That is a part of humanity, knowing right from wrong.
As I will state AGAIN, abortion or murder is not part of the human culture, its part of the secular, worldy.
If it was human culture, we as a culture, all the billions of us would see abortion as acceptable.

Angela - posted on 06/02/2012

Abortion pre-dates Christianity Amy. That's why I said it was part of human culture - abortion was practised in ancient civilisations. Without legal abortion being available there would be far greater instances of criminal abortion. I'm personally opposed to abortion - believe it or not. Did you read my weblink on the history of abortion from Wikipedia which I gave in an earlier post?

Here it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...

When I first became aware of what abortion was, what it meant and what it did, my own feelings were of revulsion and "this can't be right, I'm surprised it's legal ..." I was about 10 years old at the time. By the time I was 12 or 13 I discovered that most Christian groups are opposed to abortion. So not only does abortion pre-date Christianity, my own feelings on abortion which DO coincide with those of Christianity, pre-date my awareness of the Christian stance on abortion. I am a Christian, by the way.

I decided abortion was wrong (generally speaking) on my own volition and not because I was told it was sinful, or that my co-believers in the Christian faith thought it was wrong. My own judgement, however flawed anyone else thinks it is, was what led me to be opposed to abortion.

And with respect, I did not see any part of the opening post from Michelle L which states this debate/discussion is only open to people of the same belief system.