Does anyone believe that an unborn baby has a right to live?

Michelle - posted on 06/02/2012 ( 529 moms have responded )

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Does anyone believe that abortion is wrong. Even if the child is so-called going to have a disease. I look at it this way. All babies have every right to live, no matter what. If a mother can't take care of the baby, give the child up for adoption to another mother who wants one.

Also, I see it this way. A baby is supposed to so called have a disease, like turners or down syndrome..and shouldn't be born because of it...All because of financial problems and etc.
What if you were born normal, with no problems and one day something bad happens...you ended up with a bad disease that causes you to not be able to take care of yourself. It would be the same, wouldn't it. You should just well be killed because of financial reasons and it's just too hard to handle...

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Jenni - posted on 06/04/2012

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I detest abortions debates. I just have to say that upfront, but I can't seem to keep away from a hot topic.



I'll tell you why; I am strongly pro-life for myself. I cannot imagine aborting a pregnancy of my own. It would have to be under extreme circumstances like risk of death to myself or a nonviable pregnancy. At the same time, that is *me* and I absolutely cannot rule for certain how I would feel if I was in another woman's shoes; a rape/incest victim, a drug addict, a homeless woman, a woman with an debilitating mental/physical disorder, or even a woman with a different view than mine on when life in the womb begins or what is considered a viable pregnancy. Quite frankly, we do not possess the medical/scientific evidence to deduce when a pregnancy is considered a human life and because of that; it is subjective.



For me, my pregnancies became human life at the moment I found out I was pregnant even though my first was not planned. The moment I discovered I was pregnant (approximately 6 weeks along) I felt I had a human life inside me but I will not use 'my feelings' as objective evidence for all pregnancies and rule that this is the case for all women.



There are so many grey areas in the abortion debate, so many varied circumstances and beliefs. I could not possibly judge another woman of whom I am not in her shoes. I do not believe for a second that it is an easy decision to make, regardless of circumstances and I think *most* women who seek abortion do so as a last resort. Unless they are a certified sociopath.



As many have already stated; they are more concerned with quality of life over quantity of life and I feel much the same. This is why I am ultimately pro-choice for others and why I believe this is a private decision between doctor and patient.

Krista - posted on 06/04/2012

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"No matter how you feel about abortion, making it illegal will not and has never stopped it from happening. Abortion has taken place throughout human history and continues to happen at the same or higher rates in nations that outlaw it as it does in nations that legalize it. So what we get to choose is how and when those babies die and whether or not it is likely to kill the mother too. If you're lobbying to make it illegal, then you are lobbying for women to die in dangerous illegal abortions. That's not pro-life.

By all means, seek and fight hard to limit the rates of abortions. Encourage broad sex education, the use and availability of birth control, the support for struggling families and women. Make sure that women don't see having a baby as a sentence to poverty and misery. All of those things have been shown to reduce abortion rates. Making it illegal has not."


Repeated for truth.

It is interesting when you look at the global statistics, really. In Latin American countries, abortion is highly restricted. But their abortion rates are quite high.

And of course, the biggest factor in abortion rates is the unplanned pregnancy rate.

Abortion levels are high in countries where the desire for small families is strong but contraceptive use is low or ineffective. For example, in most of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics, where desired family size has been small for many years, modern contraceptive methods were not generally available until within the past 15 years or so. So these women relied on abortion—which was legal, safe and easily accessible—as birth control. But, as contraceptives became easier to access, abortion rates in some of these countries fell by as much as 50%.

Basically, even in countries where abortion is legal and widely available, abortion rates are low if couples practice contraception effectively to limit or space births. In the Netherlands, for example, where abortion has been legal and widely accessible for many years, abortion and unintended pregnancy rates are low because of widespread contraceptive use.

So the key to reducing abortions is NOT to make it illegal. The key to reducing abortions (which is something that MOST of us pro-choicers have been hollering for years) is to make sure that people have access to inexpensive, reliable contraception, know how to use it, and do not experience any social pressure or "slut-shaming" when they DO use it.

We ALL want fewer abortions in the world. Each and every one of us.

We just disagree on how to get there.

Angela - posted on 06/04/2012

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Just caught up on this after a day or 2 away – needed to read about 7 pages of comments!

Joanna Bedard, I always regard myself as pro-life because I would not have an abortion myself and because I’m in favour of educating people about abortion, about contraception, helping impoverished parents, providing available and affordable daycare etc … all to REDUCE abortion – by getting the message across before they’re even pregnant.

I would NOT interfere with someone’s decisions once they were already pregnant. I think that is wrong. But I feel educating people correctly and fully BEFORE they’re pregnant can reduce abortion significantly. Trying to tell people that their decision to abort is bad/evil etc … when they already have the stress of the situation (being pregnant in less than ideal circumstances) is a negative pressure they can do without. Likewise, I wouldn’t be advising someone to get an abortion either. As others on here have said “Butt out of other women’s wombs!”

I would not use the word “murder” to describe an abortion. I would certainly use the word “death” though.

Michelle L, you say you do not agree with abortion but neither do you agree with parents going ahead with the pregnancy of a ancephalic baby who will die shortly after birth with the intention of harvesting organs from the body of the dead newborn. This is not like a live baby will be operated upon and his/her organs removed – it’s a baby who is already dead before they remove the organs. It can make a real difference to other babies – several can be helped from one baby’s organs. It’s a very brave decision for parents to make. The other alternatives are to either abort OR just give birth to the child who dies shortly afterwards. To donate the organs gives real comfort to the grieving parents and to know that in a way, parts of their beloved child live on. I don’t think that’s a bad or “sick” thing at all.

You’re right that there are some misdiagnosed conditions in pregnancy but ectopic pregnancy isn’t one of them. A foetus growing in a fallopian tube is NOT going to survive to full term, it’s only going to make it until a few weeks after conception. If it is not removed, the tube will rupture and likely cause death to the mother – and the infant will still not survive. This means that when a woman has other children they have been left without a mother. After an ectopic pregnancy has had surgical intervention, the woman is left with only one fallopian tube. Pregnancy is still possible afterwards as a tube remains.

Sherri Champagne & Liz H – I don’t know what you mean when you mention “institutional care” or a “home” for disabled adults when you talk about older parents and disabled children. I work in a home for disabled people. We support people with a variety of disabilities, some have physical disabilities, some have learning disabilities. And by the way please, never – ever use the term “mentally handicapped” or “retard” – those are dreadful words! Some are only mildly disabled, some are profoundly disabled. In no way would I regard my workplace as an institution. It’s a proper house that our residents (whom we call “tenants”) enjoy living in. It’s what’s known as a supported living establishment. The tenants help select the furniture etc … they go out and choose their own clothing and other stuff they might spend their money on. They do chores around the home, help with cooking, laundry etc … Any parents with a grown-up disabled son or daughter might apply for their adult child to live there. It’s not somewhere their adult child will go to after the parents have died, it’s better if they move in whilst Mom & Dad are still alive – then they can visit them, come round and share a meal with them, take them over their house on a visit etc …. It can hardly be called putting your child into an institution! Our job is not to “care for” the tenants, it’s to support them into doing things for themselves! Everyone is capable of more independence and we’re there to encourage it. Some of course, need more support than others but every single one of them can develop and achieve more independence. The hardest clients to deal with are those who have been mollycoddled for years by their parents and have never been expected to do anything for themselves. The easiest, most well-adjusted people we deal with have been brought up by parents who treated them exactly the same as their siblings. It’s not a tragedy for arrange for your adult child to live in a disabled home. Your adult children who are not disabled don’t live at home with Mom & Dad, do they?

Sorry to go off-topic there folks – it’s just that a lot of people believe homes where disabled people live are institutions – they’re not!!

What’s all this talk of coathangers? Is that how they criminally abort in the US? Britain’s favoured methods involved crochet hooks, knitting needles and spoon handles. We never want to return to those days. Abortion won’t be stopped by making it illegal. The numbers will only be brought down by educating people and helping them with their families.

LeeAnn - posted on 06/04/2012

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My opinion, and its only my OPINION, is abortions are going to happen whether they are legal or not. The only advantage to have them legal is they can be regulated and it keeps women safe.

Sherry - posted on 06/04/2012

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I don't believe in abortion as a form of birth control -- but I do believe in abortion if the life of the child is going to be one of pain and misery. When i was pregnant we were told our child had spina bifida. We were told we could go to the States for an abortion (we were in the 2nd trimester) We did not as we knew that the child certainly had an opportunity for a healthy happy life. When my amnio results came back (they did a late amnio as they saw issue). It came back with our child having Trisomy 9 complete -- it was non compatable with life. So here I am 38 weeks, a everything i need for a baby only to find out that i won't be coming home with a child. We induced right away as there is no way i could get my mind around carrying a dead child in me and this could happen at any moment. Our son died the day before i delivered and i have his last heart beat captured. Based on his auptosy if there was ever a slim change that he could have lived, it really would have been no life at all -- so if i had known earlier say 12 weeks what i knew at 38 weeks....i certainly may have changed my mind on how to proceed. Even if i didnt at least i would have liked to have the option. i dont like abortion but i believe it should be a choice that a person has

As for the adoption proccess. It is different here in Canada -- we adopted a 4 month old healthy baby boy. We were match with him 1 month after being approved which is quick and there is no coost when you go through CAS. I to was adopted so adoption is something we have always strongly believed in. We consider ourselves very blessed. I am the person who i am for going through what we did with our first child who we lost and now for having a happy 4 year old who has an angel watching over him

Brandy - posted on 06/04/2012

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When I was younger, I was staunchly pro-life. Like the OP, I couldn't fathom a baby's life being taken. Only at the cost of the mother's life or rape did I condone abortion. Otherwise, I was of the mind that if you willingly had sex and got pregnant, that consequence was yours to pay. I was young and didn't understand that there are so many reasons why a mother wouldn't want her baby. I also didn't understand the science behind pregnancy. Just as some who are posting here, I thought life began when there was a heartbeat...and nothing else mattered.

As I grew older, had kids of my own (one a surprise at age 19...at the time I was pro-life and wouldn't dream of having an abortion...and it was a damn good thing my family stood by me; a miscarriage; then our planned 2nd one), and talked to people who have had abortions, I began to realize the errors in how I thought. I realized there are many reasons why a mother would want to abort...and I realized that those reasons are really none of my business. I realized that scientifically, until that baby is viable outside of the mother, it is not a baby. It is an embryo and then a fetus...someone else mentioned it being a parasite. Harsh, and yet true all the same. The mother is the host to an organism that, while living, needs the host to survive...in a very similar way as a virus or disease. Think about this - when you take medication to get rid of a virus or disease, are you murdering those organisms? They are living things, just as an embryo/fetus is. Some are comparing a fetus with a baby in that a baby is still dependent on someone to survive...so abortion is equivalent to murdering a newborn. That is not the case. Yes, someone has to take care of the baby...but at that point, it doesn't have to be the mother. The mother is no longer the host, the fetus no longer an extension of the mother. Anyone can care for the baby once it's outside of the mother.

The term "murder" is thrown around an awful lot when talking about abortion. Here's the definition:
"Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder)."
Notice the words "human being". An embryo or a fetus that cannot survive outside the mother is not a human being...it is an embryo or a fetus, that is why we have those terms. IMO (I haven't fully researched it, so for now, it stands as my opinion), this is why, scientifically, abortion is legal. No human baby is being harmed in an abortion. Scientifically and legally, there is no murder in connection with abortion. That, and only that, is what we have to use to determine legality. We cannot say because someone thinks it is morally wrong that it should be illegal. Whose morals do we base that on? Morals are subjective...no two people have the exact same morals. Therefore, we can not base our laws on what we believe to be right and wrong, but what can be proven to be right and wrong.

Suffice it to say, I am very much pro-choice now. It should never be someone else's decision on what a woman does with her body. When a woman gets pregnant, that embryo/fetus is an extension of her...it is still a part of her body until it can live on it's own outside of her body. I am still against abortion being used as birth control (having them again and again to prevent having a baby). But in researching, learning, and living life, I understand why a woman would choose to give up her "baby" in such a manner. I understand, in most cases, the decision will be a difficult one, one that a mother does not enter into lightly...but that ultimately should be left up to the mother. And I understand that unless it harms me specifically, I have no right to tell anyone else how to live their life based solely on my morals and beliefs.

I don't know how young the OP (Michelle L) is, but to me, she sounds young...she sounds a lot like I did when I was young and pro-life...before my experiences brought me to where I am today. I urge her to keep an open mind and an open heart, and to not judge people based on her own morals and beliefs. We are all trying to get through this thing called life...and the more we can do it with love and openness for each other, no matter our personal convictions, the better off we'll be.

Amber - posted on 06/04/2012

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I don't believe in abortion, unless of extreme cases (rape or it was going to kill one or both in birth to have the child) I believe that every child is a gift. I don't necessarily believe in "God" but there is a higher power that I do believe overall has some control over some situations (not all) because noone has control over everything :-) :-) ne ways back to the point, abortion is an option for extreme cases in my opinion.. however that is just it, an opinion. every one has to make that choice, they have to do what is best for them. what is right for me and my family may not be what is right for you and your family. you have to look at it that way. just because Kate has 8 kids and a tv show does not mean that is what is best for my family...(I only have 2 don't panic), but you get what I'm saying?

Brandy - posted on 06/03/2012

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Making something illegal doesn't seem to stop people from doing ANYTHING, unfortunately. That doesn't mean it should be legal. I'm certainly not lobbying for anyone to die. I just don't think the baby deserves to die either. I do agree 100% that being proactive in prevention by educating women (and men) would be the best. But when it gets to the point where a woman is considering an abortion, I wish that the clinic or wherever she goes could maybe tell her about a specific family who is looking to adopt. There are so many people who could give a child the life and love he or she deserves that cannot have babies of their own. It is sad (for lack of a better word) when someone who is able to bring a life into the world takes that ability for granted.

Johnny - posted on 06/03/2012

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No matter how you feel about abortion, making it illegal will not and has never stopped it from happening. Abortion has taken place throughout human history and continues to happen at the same or higher rates in nations that outlaw it as it does in nations that legalize it. So what we get to choose is how and when those babies die and whether or not it is likely to kill the mother too. If you're lobbying to make it illegal, then you are lobbying for women to die in dangerous illegal abortions. That's not pro-life.

By all means, seek and fight hard to limit the rates of abortions. Encourage broad sex education, the use and availability of birth control, the support for struggling families and women. Make sure that women don't see having a baby as a sentence to poverty and misery. All of those things have been shown to reduce abortion rates. Making it illegal has not.

[deleted account]

In 2012 a woman should never have to return. To primitive coat hanger days of the 1950s & 60s. Ever. Its a disgusting concept to consider when there is a legal and safe medical procedure as an option.

Brandy - posted on 06/03/2012

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There are a lot of things in this world that "have no effect" on us, but that doesn't make them okay, and doesn't mean we should overlook or allow it. I agree with taking that stance, as long as the only person who is affected is the one making the choice - If someone wants to wear their underwear on the outside of their pants, the rest of us may not necessarily approve, but hey, whatever. LOL

However, even though I may not be affected by some other woman having an abortion, someone is. The baby. A newborn baby also is not able to take care of itself and is completely dependent, and although it would be "no effect" on anyone but that baby, it would be considered murder to kill it. Same as it should be to kill a baby on the inside of its mother.

Johnny - posted on 06/03/2012

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Indeed, and since we've already covered that you can't ask the dead questions, save Krista's ouija board suggestion, it's rather a ridiculous point. Sort of like suggesting women should just use coathangers instead of proper medical procedures.

Johnny - posted on 06/03/2012

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"Their problem."

No you wouldn't have had an opinion, but a coathanger would have been your problem too.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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Only those who are born have the opportunity for an opinion regarding abortion, correct?

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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Well, gosh no! I'd be quite dead. No chance of having an opinion regarding anything whatsoever.

Johnny - posted on 06/03/2012

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I suppose had your mother decided to go that route it would have been your problem too.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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1) Congrats on your extensive vocabulary, and 2) I've stated numerous times that the procedure is completely legal. I'd never impinge upon a woman & her right to kill her baby. It's a completely legal procedure.

[deleted account]

Coathanger?! Are you god damned fucking serious in 2012 mentioning COATHANGERS as a solution to slef-botched abortions?! For real?! That's a crock of bullshit and even meant as a joke, it's sick fucking joke! Really?! it's cool to have 14 year old girls try to self-abort with a god damned coat hanger?!



Abortion is a medical legal proceudre and no one's business except teh woman and her doctor. You don't like it? Then don't have one. Butt out of another woman's womb!



Coathangers, my ass!

Johnny - posted on 06/03/2012

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You had suggested it as a solution for other women. It was the standard pre-Roe vs. Wade.

Jeannie - posted on 06/03/2012

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In the long run - why does anybody really care what another thinks about this? we each have our own stance that we are unwilling to give up - so knowing that you cannot please everyone, you might as well please yourself. just do what you want and what works for your own life and others do as they wish.

Johnny - posted on 06/03/2012

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I am perplexed by one thing. You repeatedly refer to your mother as "pro-abortion", however you are here, so I'm not exactly sure how pro-abortion she could have been if she went through with having a child that she did not plan to raise.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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I myself have spina bifida. I didn't walk until I was 2 years old. I'm quite healthy; in fact, I've worked as a runway model for a major agency. No visible defects here. There are genetic tests now that detect my condition; I refused these tests while pregnant with my children.

Liz - posted on 06/03/2012

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Ah, Sheri, I'm sad now. Anyone who uses the whole 'look in a mirror' argument ...well, they make me sigh and give up the debate as a lost cause. Enough said.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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Liz, darling... I'm anything but hysterical & emotive. Look in the mirror...

This is a very, very charged issue & everyone wants to allege that the other side is behaving in a non-rational manner.

Not to worry - abortion will never go away. All is well.

Amy DuMont - posted on 06/03/2012

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I am definitely against abortion but there are instances were it may be necessary. If the mother's life is in danger then she may need to, but that is her decision. I have heard of mothers that will give up their lives for the life of their unborn baby. It all depends on the person. As far as disability or any other problems with the fetus, I think they should be given a chance. Some have beaten the odds doctors have given them. Some are not as bad off as doctors had predicted. The fact is, they don't always know for sure until the baby is born. I do not believe that the tests they perform are always 100% accurate. Some say they could never handle a child with disabilities. How do they know without trying? God will only give you as much as you can handle. If He gives you a child with a disability or a disease, maybe there is a lesson He thinks you need to learn. And if you really feel that you could not take care of the baby, then put the baby up for adoption. I know a couple that adopted two newborns in less than a year. It can be done.

Liz - posted on 06/03/2012

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I don't believe that I did. Certainly that was not my intent. I said at one point, in fact:



'Believe what you want, but don't expect to enforce your views upon others and please leave the judgment and hysteria out of the debate.'



I don't think that your opinion is denying anyone their choice or that such a thing is even possible, unless you are someone about to pass a law to make full term pregnancy mandatory. I doubt that.



The issue I had was not with the fact that your opinion is contrary to mine - I like a good debate as much as the next person - but with the needlessly hysterical and emotive language.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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You implied that my opinion was denying the opportunity of choice to other women; that is not the case whatsoever.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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I agree, Liz H. However, I have the right to my opinion regarding the discussion.

Liz - posted on 06/03/2012

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I think living with the consequences is a personal thing for those women and not something that you need to worry yourself about (unless you are friend/family or treat them as a clinical psychotherapist or counsellor). It is entirely not the business of anyone but those women.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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And as the women who make that choice have the right to their opinions, I have the right to my opinion.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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And they have the opportunity to live with the consequences. As I've stated multiple times, it's a legal procedure. Full stop.

And for the record, my pro-abortion mother didn't choose to raise me - she left that to my grandparents & I'll always be most grateful to them for stepping up (in addition to being grateful to her for not killing me).

Liz - posted on 06/03/2012

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"The WHO's definition is rather all-embracing, is it not? As I stated originally, women have the legal right to murder their preborn children; they also have the opportunity to deal with the aftermath. "

Why yes, they do. Long may it remain so.

Long may it remain the case that illegal, coat-hanger abortions do not again become necessary or sought after. Long may it remain the case that women have control over their own organs. Long may it remain the case that courts do not get to force a woman to complete a pregnancy that is injurious to her health.

Liz - posted on 06/03/2012

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It's rather all-embracing, because the learned and ethical persons who gathered together to agree that definition understood just what far-reaching consequences may be felt when any of these aspects of a person's life are reduced.

Things aren't black and white, Sheri. It doesn't all boil down to life or not life. What seems 'not right' to one person may be the only thing keeping another person together in mind, body and spirit.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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The WHO's definition is rather all-embracing, is it not? As I stated originally, women have the legal right to murder their preborn children; they also have the opportunity to deal with the aftermath.

Liz - posted on 06/03/2012

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Okay, so actual physical life may be preserved, but not sanity, marriage, emotional well-being so as to be able to take care of an existing family?

I refer you to the definition of health as given by the World Health Organisation (1948) : Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

I would put it to you that the _health_ of the mother is of as much importance as her 'actual physical life'.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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Not a conversion at all, just an acknowledgement of the legal aspects. Many things that are legal aren't right. Go to the wayback machine & take slavery, for example... Quite legal at one time, but most certainly not ever right.

Sheri - posted on 06/03/2012

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Not at all. Pro-life is pro-life, of the mother & the preborn baby. There are precious few medical conditions that threaten the actual physical life of the mother, but since it's a legal procedure, that is most certainly not my decision. It must be awful to live with the aftermath, that's all. It's an irreversible decision.

Liz - posted on 06/03/2012

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So not murder then.

Wow.

Fastest conversion in COM history.

Or possibly not a conversion at all but merely sarcasm.

Ah well.

To dream the impossible dream. :)

Liz - posted on 06/03/2012

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Ah, we're getting somewhere. So, they are 'poor mothers' if they have no choice but to die themselves as the result of a back-alley illegal procedure which kills them as well as their baby, but if they have the nerve to survive, then they're murderers?

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