Natalie - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jaime:

I am not arguing fact. I have not disagreed with the known facts about the risks involved with drinking during pregnancy. I have simply advocated for the belief that it is a personal choice and that it is not wrong to drink during pregnancy because there are known benefits to drinking during pregnancy.

I'm not knocking anyone who has a the occasional glass of wine towards the end of pregnancy, i myself had the occasional glass in my last trimester (I don't care whether anyone agrees with that or not) but it is down right ridiculous to say there ARE BENEFITS to drinking during pregnancy, no there isn't, and you sound a bit silly saying it to be honest, no baby gets any nutritional value from wine, beer or anything else, I'm interested to know what you think the KNOWN benefits are  ? 

Kimi - posted on 05/05/2009

Wow lots of oppinions on this one... I don't think that drinking is in any way going to benifit anyone so why would it be a good idea to drink while your'e pregnant? Who ever made up this myth to begin with is obviously trying to justify her own choices. You wouldn't invite a toddler to have a drink with you so why would it be ok to drink while your'e pregnant?

Mulan - posted on 05/05/2009

As a Special Ed teacher, I did not take any chances while I was pregnant. I did not want to blame myself for something that I could have prevented. Having seen what alcohol abuse can do to children, I do not recommend drinking while pregnant. I do not know where the line is between "safe" and "sorry".

Monica - posted on 05/05/2009

I am a qualified Midwife. the World Health Organisation recommends no alcohol during pregnancy and breastfeeding. The safe limit is not known and there are risks to alcohol, such as fetal alcohol syndrome. I have looked after babies who need to withdraw from alcohol. Even a small amount could affect brain development.

Charelle - posted on 05/05/2009

i would just like to say a quick note i don,t think anyone should be judgeing anyone one else i drunk when i was carring my son and was healthy baby and a good weight born. he is now 2 and coming on great he has just had his development test and is the top end of the scale ... i don,t drink alot i had the old glass of red wine at partys and dos and it was only 40 years ago when they said you it was good to drink stout or guiness when carring your baby as its full of iron and they say red wine is good for your heart ... what i say is do what you think is right for you and your baby and not anyone ele tells your to do its your body you no best

Trish - posted on 05/05/2009

well I hardly drank anything while pregnant although did maybe have 1 glass of wine during the whole 9mths at xmas or something. although no amount of alcohol is beneficial during pregnancy and drinking large amounts can harm the baby there is no proof that a small amount (such as 1 glass of wine a week) will harm the baby.

Natalee - posted on 05/05/2009

i completely understand your question of "are their benefits?" to drinking during pregnancy. it is a valid question. Research shows that for some, it can help a mother relax and curb stress, therefor benefiting the baby by not exposing the both mother and child to come of the harmful stress hormones. I do believe i have also been told that in certain circumstances, it would be beneficial to wean the mother/baby off the alcohol rather then cut them off completely to prevent a shock to both their body's.

If there are other benefits, i would be interested to learn more.

I do personally believe it is not a good idea to use alcohol in pregnancy, as there are safer things that can be done or used to deal with these illnesses.

this is a brave post to start and i commend you for bringing up this subject.

Jaime - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Amanda:

Quoting Jaime:

Amanda, you can post all the study information you want about the known risks of drinking during pregnancy...that STILL doesn't negate the existence of benefits...and that has been my point from the beginning. You are spending time searching for facts that I already know exist...I don't deny that there are risks. You, however; refuse to give merit to any study that pops up discussing the benefits of drinking because you are stuck on a close-minded belief that it is wrong, wrong, wrong no matter what doctor or person might argue otherwise.

And are you really going to pick at the use of the word retard? It is a known term used to describe mentally challenged individuals...it's not, in its proper use, in any way an insult to people with mental disabilities but it has been so misused that hearing the word in a study even draws jaw-dropping reactions. The definition of the word 'retard' is slow or delayed. 'Queer' also means weird or peculiar...are you going to discredit studies using this term properly because of its recent fall into the category of prejudice against homosexuals?!

Jamie the point is that you asked for proof that there are negatives. did you even read the post? did you read the article captions? if you did you would see it states that even in moderation there has been proven harmful effects.

your problem is jamie is that you choose to ignore the facts because you are so keen on being right.

you can accept that you are wrong wrong wrong and the only comeback you have every time someone proves you wrong is to call them mudslingers.

Amanda I have never asked for proof that there are negatives, as I have known all along that there are with certainty---this is not the issue for me.  I have only ever asked for proof when someone makes a statement like "there are no benefits to drinking alcohol during pregnancy"...I have asked for proof because there ARE known benefits to drinking alcohol during pregnancy, so I want to know how they are so certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are none....and coming back at me with a list of all the risks is not proof that there are no benefits because it's all circumstantial as much as you choose to ignore that.  I read through some of the info that you posted and I also saw that it determined moderation as possibly one drink per day...perhaps this is not moderation for every woman that chooses to drink during pregnancy.  I will say again that I have not stated that I am right in any of my posts because I'm not trying to prove right vs. wrong.  I have been saying all along that I believe it is a personal choice and just because you believe it is wrong does not make it wrong.

Natalee - posted on 05/05/2009

No no no!! i personally know a mother that swares on her children she only had an occasional glass of wine, maybe once a month, while pregnant and her youngest child has FAS. wouldn't recommend it. they just don't know!

Amanda - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Amanda, you can post all the study information you want about the known risks of drinking during pregnancy...that STILL doesn't negate the existence of benefits...and that has been my point from the beginning. You are spending time searching for facts that I already know exist...I don't deny that there are risks. You, however; refuse to give merit to any study that pops up discussing the benefits of drinking because you are stuck on a close-minded belief that it is wrong, wrong, wrong no matter what doctor or person might argue otherwise.

And are you really going to pick at the use of the word retard? It is a known term used to describe mentally challenged individuals...it's not, in its proper use, in any way an insult to people with mental disabilities but it has been so misused that hearing the word in a study even draws jaw-dropping reactions. The definition of the word 'retard' is slow or delayed. 'Queer' also means weird or peculiar...are you going to discredit studies using this term properly because of its recent fall into the category of prejudice against homosexuals?!

Jamie the point is that you asked for proof that there are negatives. did you even read the post? did you read the article captions? if you did you would see it states that even in moderation there has been proven harmful effects.

your problem is jamie is that you choose to ignore the facts because you are so keen on being right.

you can accept that you are wrong wrong wrong and the only comeback you have every time someone proves you wrong is to call them mudslingers.

Melissa - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Vannessa:

I adopted the baby of a family member. She has fetal alcohol spectrum disorder which causes brain damage. It only takes a small amount of alcohol to cause it. Thank God its not full blown fetal alcohol syndrom, but it will effect her for her whole life.

We took in a child who is now an adult who can not get a licence or have a normal life while he was in our care he was out of jail and out of trouble. Now he is in and out of jail and he now has his own baby coming and his gf is pregnant and drinking as well. Its a bad cycle

~Jennifer - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Amanda:

Quoting Jennifer:

Quoting Melissa:

Quoting Jennifer:

Personally, I think that 'beneficial' is entirely the wrong word to have used in this thread. Yes, there are studies about the 'benefits' of red wine on heart health.....yes there are studies on the benefits of iron levels of low alcohol beers (ie: Guinness). Yes there are studies on the results of excessive drinking. There are studies for everything.

I think what should have been asked was whether a glass of wine or 2 a week or a low alcohol beer a week is harmful - period. Adding the word 'beneficial' just opened up a can of " I'm stuck on this one word" replies.

No one should consider alcohol beneficial. Enjoyable in moderation, yes, but beneficial? I don't think so. Alcohol isn't water - you don't NEED it to live, but people ENJOY it and therefore, make use of it.

Different people, different locations, different doctors, different opinions.

I can say though, in my experience, while discussing the upcoming Christmas holiday with my doctor during the last 2 months of my pregnancy, and telling him that I was not looking forward to the usual family drama, he did say - "If it gets that bad, you can have a glass of wine to relax - you're in your last trimester."

YOU KNOW WHAT What questions that are asked do not go through you. My friend asked this question because in another thread people were claiming what this thread is asking.

Calm down sweetie, I wasn't insulting you or your friend.  I said that it could have been worded better so as not to lock people into one specific word.  If you and Amanda feel the need to re-hash someone's replies to the Ice Cream thread by starting the topic over in a different one, that's just dandy - but we all know that she did it to make sure everyone else saw Jamie's replies.  We're (most of us) adults, we're not blind.

Don't jump on my ass just because I said it could have been worded in a different way so as to not garner replies simply based on 'benefit'.   Stop and think 'debate' for once and not think "I must prove I'm right".   That's what adults do.

Oh I just love it when people assume things. This wasnt about jamie or people seeing her replies. I actually was hopeing she would not reply to my thread because of HOW DAMN ANOYING SHE IS (opps guess im a mud slinger)

This was posted because of something another gal had mentioned to me, I am not going to use names because she knows who she is. This girl had stated that it was BENIFICIAL which is why I chose to post the question as she worded it to me. I had never heard this before so why would I assume it was beer and wine they were talking about?

And as for everyone thinking that I am sitting here pregnant and weighing my options this is just not true. I am not pregnant and if I were I would never weigh my options because there are no options. To me this is a no brainer, you just dont do it.

I have been trying to get this girl some information about alcohol in pregnancy and what majority thought and have been told by health care professionals. I fealt that since she is trying to get pregnant that this would be helpful for her. I also genuinely wanted to know if there were any BENEFITS  so that I dont sound like a narrow minded jack ass who has not done their research.

I've already read through your wall posts to others, as well as your friend's posts, just to see what kind of personality you have.  I wouldn't have made the comment without doing my own research first.  =)

You say that you have experience in dealing with children of FAS - and you certainly know where to find all the information that says drinking is unacceptable.   SO......if you say you're asking the question here AGAIN, trying to get different responses to what you already know and believe to be factual, it seems more like a 'pick a fight' session than a "trying to help' session.   I wonder if you could have just privately told the "other person" what you know and have let it be? 

Doubtful.

I realize that you are passionate about this issue - we all should be.......but  some things I've seen about 'calling CPS' and  calling people 'trash', or messaging them privately to tell them off.....?

Juvenile.

Why people can't just say what they want to say and move on is beyond me.  If you already know you're not going to change someone's mind, and you're not going to involve a person of authority to forcibly change them - why bother bitching?  Bored much?

Amanda - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Kate:

Quoting Jaime:

I have stood firm on my belief that there are benefits to drinking while pregnant---this viewpoint has never changed!  I said that I don't need a list of all these benefits because we are not arguing the benefits themselves, we are arguing the existence of them.  Also, I have no idea that my doctor will or will not give me a list of the benefits and neither do you...you are guessing and that does nothing for your point.  I am over myself...I am not trying to prove that I am right...and I'm not trying to prove that you are wrong.  I am saying that just because you believe that drinking during pregnancy is wrong, does not make it wrong, and also that there are known benefits to drinking during pregnancy---there is one study that Amanda mentioned early on in this thread about the benefits (although she discredits this study).

"We're not arguing the benefits themselves, we are argying the existence of them." That's like saying "I don't have to tell you the benefits but I know they're there!" You keep asking for proof and then you fall short of providing your own. 

People rely too heavily on studies and statistics to prove points. While they are important to scientific research they are a dime a dozen. For every study I can show you saying eating bat guano is good for you you can probably find one saying it's not. 

 

Forget the whole "morally wrong" issue. Morals are personal beliefs and no one can or should change that-especially on a internet chat forum. The real issue here is: do the "pros" out way the cons? If we can determine if one outweighs the other then it should go to prove whether or not alcohol is actually beneficial DURING PREGNANCY. Shall we?

 

Pros: Cons:

Relaxing Poisonous

Good for your heart Bad for your baby's heart

Source of iron (beers) Bad for your baby's developing kidneys and liver

Tastes good (to some people) Taken from the surgeon general's press release in 2005:

"...Based on the current, best science available we now know the following:

*Alcohol consumed during pregnancy increases the risk of alcohol related birth defects, including growth deficiencies, facial abnormalities, central nervous system impairment, behavioral disorders, and impaired intellectual development.

*No amount of alcohol consumption can be considered safe during pregnancy.

*Alcohol can damage a fetus at any stage of pregnancy. Damage can occur in the earliest weeks of pregnancy, even before a woman knows that she is pregnant.

*The cognitive deficits and behavioral problems resulting from prenatal alcohol exposure are lifelong.

..."

My mother and I actually had this debate last night. She apparently had a few glasses of wine when pregnant with me and with my sister. Did we turn out okay? Sure. But, she drank during the last few weeks of her pregnancy and her pregnancies were also healthy, normal pregnancies. Did she drink to benefit her baby? No, she drank because she was tense and wanted to relax a little. Knowingly exposing your developing child to a toxin is dangerous. Not "okay" not "wrong" but dangerous. Period.

this is a great post. That is how I should have worded the original post. Weighing the pros and cons.

Jaime - posted on 05/05/2009

Amanda, you can post all the study information you want about the known risks of drinking during pregnancy...that STILL doesn't negate the existence of benefits...and that has been my point from the beginning. You are spending time searching for facts that I already know exist...I don't deny that there are risks. You, however; refuse to give merit to any study that pops up discussing the benefits of drinking because you are stuck on a close-minded belief that it is wrong, wrong, wrong no matter what doctor or person might argue otherwise.



And are you really going to pick at the use of the word retard? It is a known term used to describe mentally challenged individuals...it's not, in its proper use, in any way an insult to people with mental disabilities but it has been so misused that hearing the word in a study even draws jaw-dropping reactions. The definition of the word 'retard' is slow or delayed. 'Queer' also means weird or peculiar...are you going to discredit studies using this term properly because of its recent fall into the category of prejudice against homosexuals?!

Vannessa - posted on 05/05/2009

I adopted the baby of a family member. She has fetal alcohol spectrum disorder which causes brain damage. It only takes a small amount of alcohol to cause it. Thank God its not full blown fetal alcohol syndrom, but it will effect her for her whole life.

Vannessa - posted on 05/05/2009

I adopted the baby of a family member. She has fetal alcohol spectrum disorder which causes brain damage. It only takes a small amount of alcohol to cause it. Thank God its not full blown fetal alcohol syndrom, but it will effect her for her whole life.

Amanda - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jennifer:

Quoting Melissa:

Quoting Jennifer:

Personally, I think that 'beneficial' is entirely the wrong word to have used in this thread. Yes, there are studies about the 'benefits' of red wine on heart health.....yes there are studies on the benefits of iron levels of low alcohol beers (ie: Guinness). Yes there are studies on the results of excessive drinking. There are studies for everything.

I think what should have been asked was whether a glass of wine or 2 a week or a low alcohol beer a week is harmful - period. Adding the word 'beneficial' just opened up a can of " I'm stuck on this one word" replies.

No one should consider alcohol beneficial. Enjoyable in moderation, yes, but beneficial? I don't think so. Alcohol isn't water - you don't NEED it to live, but people ENJOY it and therefore, make use of it.

Different people, different locations, different doctors, different opinions.

I can say though, in my experience, while discussing the upcoming Christmas holiday with my doctor during the last 2 months of my pregnancy, and telling him that I was not looking forward to the usual family drama, he did say - "If it gets that bad, you can have a glass of wine to relax - you're in your last trimester."

YOU KNOW WHAT What questions that are asked do not go through you. My friend asked this question because in another thread people were claiming what this thread is asking.

Calm down sweetie, I wasn't insulting you or your friend.  I said that it could have been worded better so as not to lock people into one specific word.  If you and Amanda feel the need to re-hash someone's replies to the Ice Cream thread by starting the topic over in a different one, that's just dandy - but we all know that she did it to make sure everyone else saw Jamie's replies.  We're (most of us) adults, we're not blind.

Don't jump on my ass just because I said it could have been worded in a different way so as to not garner replies simply based on 'benefit'.   Stop and think 'debate' for once and not think "I must prove I'm right".   That's what adults do.

Oh I just love it when people assume things. This wasnt about jamie or people seeing her replies. I actually was hopeing she would not reply to my thread because of HOW DAMN ANOYING SHE IS (opps guess im a mud slinger)

This was posted because of something another gal had mentioned to me, I am not going to use names because she knows who she is. This girl had stated that it was BENIFICIAL which is why I chose to post the question as she worded it to me. I had never heard this before so why would I assume it was beer and wine they were talking about?

And as for everyone thinking that I am sitting here pregnant and weighing my options this is just not true. I am not pregnant and if I were I would never weigh my options because there are no options. To me this is a no brainer, you just dont do it.

I have been trying to get this girl some information about alcohol in pregnancy and what majority thought and have been told by health care professionals. I fealt that since she is trying to get pregnant that this would be helpful for her. I also genuinely wanted to know if there were any BENEFITS  so that I dont sound like a narrow minded jack ass who has not done their research.

Amanda - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jaime:

(in response to Amanda): Beginning with your quote (yes, I dared go there again)... "there is plenty of eveidence to support FASD and almost no evidence to support any benifits"...the fact remains that there is evidence to support both! There might be a wealth of information to support the findings with regard to FASD, however; there is one common denominator among those studies and that is 'abuse'. The term "no known safe amount" is used because doctors cannot possibly know the limitations and tolerance levels of every woman on this planet, but that does not mean that they don't exist and that they can't be determined. The question is not whether or not there are risks or benefits, it has to do with moderation. Perhaps it is possible--just possible that there is an acceptable level of moderation that can be understood by each woman (individually) that chooses to drink while she is pregnant. The key, once again, is finding that level of moderation that is specific to each person. My tolerance level for alcohol will drastically differ from someone else that enjoys an alcoholic beverage each day because I don't have a glass everyday, so moderation for me would be about one to three a month while not pregnant (so, should I choose to drink during pregnancy I would take this limit into consideration and not exceed 1-3 per month). Being aware of one's limit is important when making the decision to have a drink during pregnancy. Not all doctors will recommend drinking to their patients, but perhaps not for the reasons you may think. If a doctor does not know the personal habits of a patient they might not suggest drinking during pregnancy because maybe the woman doesn't enjoy drinking alcoholic beverages. But, if a doctor was privy to a patient's personal habits and knew that she enjoyed a glass of wine each day with her meal or a beer a few times a week on the porch while watching the sunset, then they might---just might suggest that it is okay for her to have a few drinks a week (or whatever they deem to be moderate consumption for her). Have you considered this possibility?

And furthermore, there is one woman that posted (here I go with the quotes again) "I use to drink a glass of wine a week when i was pregnant! My OBGYN and delivery Dr. told me it was good for the babies heart!" Are you going to tell me that these doctors are quacks and shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine? And correct me if I'm wrong--no really, I dare you to correct me-- but are these doctors not giving advice to support the benefits of drinking alcohol during pregnancy?! I doubt that this advice will work for every woman....again, you have to consider culture and education. Each woman needs to be informed about the risks and benefits so that she can make an educated decision, and not just decide to abstain because she believes it is wrong based on the fact that some children are born with FAS. And also, she should not decide to drink based on the fact that some doctors say it is good for a baby's heart. Everything comes down to circumstance because there are women that will not know their limit and will likely abuse alcohol during pregnancy, increasing the further likelihood of giving birth to a child with FAS....but not ALL women will do this and that is why I believe it is a PERSONAL choice--albeit an informed choice.

If I were a blind person, I might argue that the sky is not blue...everyone sees things differently.

As for my stance on abortion...yes, I am pro-choice...but trying to suggest that my 'pro-choice' perspective is unfounded only convinces me further that you are only interested in the information that supports your belief of 'right' vs. 'wrong'. You asked the question "drinking during pregnancy beneficial" but you are not interested in knowing if anyone believes it to be beneficial, you are interested in knowing how many people agree that drinking during pregnancy is wrong. Just to recap...your belief that it is wrong, does not make it wrong, and voicing the opinion (and I use the word opinion lightly as your posts are more from a lecture standpoint) that women that choose to drink during pregnancy should not have children, is absolutely unfounded!

Here jamie. some info I pulled off the internet about drinking even in moderation. I simply typed benefits of alcohol during pregnancy into a google search and these articles were pulled from the first 4 links. The 5th link was the only link in support of alcohol during pregnancy......that link however was written by the dover canyon women wine critics board. they stated that doctors want to scare women and also used the word RETARD in their article to describe the mentally challenged. If you would like I will send you that link as well.

The BabyCenter Canada Editorial Team answers:

When you drink alcohol, it reaches your baby via your bloodstream. Nobody really knows how light social drinking affects unborn babies. Because of this Health Canada says that there is no determined safe level of drinking during pregnancy and even moderate consumption of alcohol can have serious, long-term effects on a developing baby.

Is occasional drinking safe?

While the risk of FAS increases with the amount of alcohol a woman drinks, it is unclear how much – if any – alcohol is entirely safe during pregnancy.
Studies clearly indicate that binge drinking may be particularly harmful because of the high amount of alcohol in the blood at one time. But, according to Health Canada, children born to mothers who drank as little as one drink per day during pregnancy may have behaviour and learning problems. Three to five drinks at once may be particularly harmful.

One drink is usually considered:
• 43 ml (1.5 oz) of 80 proof liquor
• 340 ml (12 oz) of beer
• 142 ml (5 oz) of wine.

Possible side-effects of alcohol exposure:

Is there a safe time to drink alcohol?

There is no safe time to drink alcohol during pregnancy. Your baby's brain is developing throughout pregnancy. The safest choice during pregnancy is no alcohol at all. In fact it is best to stop drinking before you get pregnant.

Is there a safe amount?

There is no known safe level of alcohol use during pregnancy. It is best not to drink any alcohol during your pregnancy.

Are some types of alcohol less harmful than others?

Any type of alcohol can harm your baby (beer, coolers, wine or liquor). Binge drinking and heavy drinking are particularly harmful to an unborn baby.

How much alcohol is too much during pregnancy?
No level of drinking alcohol has been proven safe during pregnancy. According to the U.S. Surgeon General, the patterns of drinking that place a baby at greatest risk for FASDs are binge drinking and drinking seven or more drinks per week (7). However, FASDs can occur in babies of women who drink less.

Researchers are taking a closer look at the more subtle effects of moderate and light drinking during pregnancy.

Jaime - posted on 05/05/2009

I just want to recap, that througout all of my posts, I have stated that I am aware of the risks of drinking during pregnancy. I am aware that drinking alcohol during pregnancy runs the risk of a child being born with FAS. I am aware that abusing alcohol will prove toxic to a person's body whereby it will have negative rather than positive effects. I am aware that it is the ingredients in some alcoholic beverages that contain the health benefits for the human body and not the alcohol itself. But, the fact remains that, because some alcohol contains 'good stuff' it is said to be beneficial. If a pregnant woman drinks a glass of wine or a bottle of beer, she will likely benefit from the ingredients that help to promote organ function and so forth...and in doing so, she is more relaxed, less stressed and likely a lot happier---these are benefits for a baby contained inside the uterus and it seems very clear to me. I can certainly do some footwork and go to my doctor and ask him to discuss a list of benefits of drinking during pregnancy, but why do I need to when I'm not trying to argue what the benefits are. All I'm stating is that there are in FACT, benefits that exist. This is not me being stubborn, this is not me trying to be right (I don't believe that drinking during pregnancy is for everyone...it's just not the case), this is me debating one side of the issue and I see nothing wrong with my viewpoint. I have only asked for proof when a poster makes a statement that appears finite and matter-of-fact, when there is no actual fact being presented--only judgment. I have never once in my posts, stated that drinking during pregnancy is the right thing to do, I have only disagreed that it is wrong. As well, there have been more than a few posters that have commented about having discussions with their doctors about drinking alcohol and have been given the 'okay'...so I have used this information to support my argument because, although I do not have a sworn statement in writing from these women or their doctors...I find it difficult to believe that they are all lying and that all of their doctors are misinformed. As for the exact studies, I do not have access to these (I guess I'm not as lucky as Amanda), but I am confident in the knowledge that I already have on this topic which I feel has been enough to support the opinion that drinking during pregnancy is not wrong, it is a personal choice--- despite the risks and the benefits.

Glendy - posted on 05/05/2009

In my opinion, I do not think that it is healthy to drink while pregnant. We already have to worry about alot of things that may and can go wrong during pregnancy. Why push the worry even more. Just be on the safe side and wait til after pregnancy to start drinking again.

~Jennifer - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Melissa:

Quoting Jennifer:

Personally, I think that 'beneficial' is entirely the wrong word to have used in this thread. Yes, there are studies about the 'benefits' of red wine on heart health.....yes there are studies on the benefits of iron levels of low alcohol beers (ie: Guinness). Yes there are studies on the results of excessive drinking. There are studies for everything.

I think what should have been asked was whether a glass of wine or 2 a week or a low alcohol beer a week is harmful - period. Adding the word 'beneficial' just opened up a can of " I'm stuck on this one word" replies.

No one should consider alcohol beneficial. Enjoyable in moderation, yes, but beneficial? I don't think so. Alcohol isn't water - you don't NEED it to live, but people ENJOY it and therefore, make use of it.

Different people, different locations, different doctors, different opinions.

I can say though, in my experience, while discussing the upcoming Christmas holiday with my doctor during the last 2 months of my pregnancy, and telling him that I was not looking forward to the usual family drama, he did say - "If it gets that bad, you can have a glass of wine to relax - you're in your last trimester."

YOU KNOW WHAT What questions that are asked do not go through you. My friend asked this question because in another thread people were claiming what this thread is asking.

Calm down sweetie, I wasn't insulting you or your friend.  I said that it could have been worded better so as not to lock people into one specific word.  If you and Amanda feel the need to re-hash someone's replies to the Ice Cream thread by starting the topic over in a different one, that's just dandy - but we all know that she did it to make sure everyone else saw Jamie's replies.  We're (most of us) adults, we're not blind.

Don't jump on my ass just because I said it could have been worded in a different way so as to not garner replies simply based on 'benefit'.   Stop and think 'debate' for once and not think "I must prove I'm right".   That's what adults do.

Melissa - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jennifer:

Personally, I think that 'beneficial' is entirely the wrong word to have used in this thread. Yes, there are studies about the 'benefits' of red wine on heart health.....yes there are studies on the benefits of iron levels of low alcohol beers (ie: Guinness). Yes there are studies on the results of excessive drinking. There are studies for everything.

I think what should have been asked was whether a glass of wine or 2 a week or a low alcohol beer a week is harmful - period. Adding the word 'beneficial' just opened up a can of " I'm stuck on this one word" replies.

No one should consider alcohol beneficial. Enjoyable in moderation, yes, but beneficial? I don't think so. Alcohol isn't water - you don't NEED it to live, but people ENJOY it and therefore, make use of it.

Different people, different locations, different doctors, different opinions.

I can say though, in my experience, while discussing the upcoming Christmas holiday with my doctor during the last 2 months of my pregnancy, and telling him that I was not looking forward to the usual family drama, he did say - "If it gets that bad, you can have a glass of wine to relax - you're in your last trimester."

YOU KNOW WHAT What questions that are asked do not go through you. My friend asked this question because in another thread people were claiming what this thread is asking.

Heidi - posted on 05/05/2009

Personally I rarely drink. I don't like the way I feel the next morning and I am getting far to old for that now. I know when I was pregnant with both of my boys I didn't drink at all, well alcohol anyway. Lots of tea though. I know there are doctors that will tell you its ok to have a glass of wine once in a while, during your pregnancy, but I know I wouldn't take the chance. Its not worth the risk. My boys are my world. So whether you asked for yourself, or for someone else, I think its best just to stay clear of any alcohol while being pregnant. I grew up with an alcoholic mother and to this day I don't know if she drank while she was pregnant with me and my twin brother.

Heidi - posted on 05/05/2009

Personally I rarely drink. I don't like the way I feel the next morning and I am getting far to old for that now. I know when I was pregnant with both of my boys I didn't drink at all, well alcohol anyway. Lots of tea though. I know there are doctors that will tell you its ok to have a glass of wine once in a while, during your pregnancy, but I know I wouldn't take the chance. Its not worth the risk. My boys are my world. So whether you asked for yourself, or for someone else, I think its best just to stay clear of any alcohol while being pregnant. I grew up with an alcoholic mother and to this day I don't know if she drank while she was pregnant with me and my twin brother.

Amie - posted on 05/05/2009

Jennifer,

http://www.hhmi.org/genetictrail/g100.ht...



http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev2...



http://www.vanderbilt.edu/exploration/ne...



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/26...





These studies all show we're genetically similar. As we are with a number of animals. Don't get me wrong, our closest genetic relative is the chimpanzee BUT a lot of laboratories use mice because their cheap and easy to get a hold of by huge amounts. Also some of these show that the mice are genetically engineered as are the ones in the quote I used. It might affect the outcome but I'm pretty sure the scientists behind the studies are smart enough to only take the ones that have passed tests to ensure they are healthy enough to do whichever particular study they are doing, without having to write that part in.



As for the animal breeders, my aunt in law is one, she takes good care of her animals. She brings in other animals though, and rents out her studs as well to other breeders, to ensure in breeding doesn't become a problem.



But this is completely off topic...



Alcohol during pregnancy... No known safe amount!

~Jennifer - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jenifer:

Quoting Jennifer:

Quoting Amie:



Downing said that many factors have been shown to play a role in the development of FASD, including the amount, timing and pattern of maternal alcohol consumption, maternal age and parity, maternal ethnicity and socioeconomic status, cultural factors, maternal smoking and other drug abuse, and maternal diet/nutrition. In addition, he said, studies with humans and mice have shown that both maternal and fetal genotypes - in conjunction with the environment - play a role in susceptibility and resistance to the detrimental effects of in utero alcohol exposure.

"Using mice, we can control for all of these confounding variables," he said. "Within an inbred strain, all mice are virtually genetically identical, greater than 99.9 percent. When one looks at more than one inbred strain of mice, and all mice are housed and treated the same, differences between strains are taken as evidence of a genetic effect."

Downing and his colleagues looked at alcohol teratogenesis in five inbred strains of mice: Inbred Short-Sleep (ISS), C57BL/6J (B6), C3H/Ibg (C3H), A/Ibg (A), and 129S6/SvEvTac (129). Pregnant mice were given either 5.8 g/kg alcohol or maltose-dextrin on day nine (roughly equivalent to days 28-31 of human gestation) of pregnancy. They were subsequently sacrificed on day 18, and their fetuses examined for gross morphological malformations.

The B6 mice that were exposed to alcohol in utero had fetal weight deficits, as well as digit, kidney, brain ventricle and vertebral malformation. In contrast, 129 mice showed no teratogenesis, while the remaining three strains showed varying degrees of teratogenesis.

"In other words, said Downing, "certain strains were sensitive to some effects of prenatal alcohol and resistant to others. The fact that inbred strains differed showed that genetics plays a role."

Downing added that these findings can be extrapolated to humans. "Since genetic effects on prenatal alcohol phenotypes in mice have been demonstrated, and the mouse and human genomes are remarkably similar, it suggests genetics plays a role in humans as well," he said. "Human researchers need to begin to systematically investigate genetic factors mediating susceptibility and resistance to the effects of prenatal alcohol exposure."

This one was another controversial one since some don't believe in testing on animals and such. I don't really have a stand point on that issue so decided to post it anyway.. the link is...
Taken From : http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles...

Why no one involved in this study raised this question, I'll never know.

If mice are 'remarkably' genetically similar to humans, and they used INBRED mice for the study - whereas we all know that inbreeding amongst humans can cause MAJOR birth defects, how do they actually know which defects in the mice were caused by the alcohol as opposed to the redundant inbreeding?

 

I just think that this study is a poor example to anyone with basic genetic knowledge.

Actually, inbreeding is a fundamental tool in genetics research. They do this so that they have a uniform background - all the mice is the study are nearly identical, so any changes generation to generation can be attributed to, in this case, alcohol. It removes variables. When done correctly, you can prevent an increase in homozygosity  - not only is this widely used in research labs, you'll find animal breeders can do this as well.

Yes, I realize how animal testing is done - I just don't see it as being anything but a dry run to experiments on humans.  What I am saying is that whether or not they are all genetically engineered to be the 'same' - what tests were done to rule out defects in the mice prior to using them in the tests?  This was not explained.  

As for animal breeders that do this as well - I have seen first hand what that can do.   Take, for instance, Sheltie breeders (dog breed) that try for what they call "Lethal White" offspring.   Half of the puppies end up blind, deaf, or both.  (My friend rescues these dogs, so I have seen them personally)  Regardless of "even breeders do it" there are still obvious consequences to inbreeding animals for a particular result -  and even some consequences that aren't apparent until much later in their lives.

I just don't see how 'inbred' anything can result in positive or negative factors without  having screened for any genetic defects already present before testing / experimenting / research study.

Jenifer - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jennifer:

Quoting Amie:



Downing said that many factors have been shown to play a role in the development of FASD, including the amount, timing and pattern of maternal alcohol consumption, maternal age and parity, maternal ethnicity and socioeconomic status, cultural factors, maternal smoking and other drug abuse, and maternal diet/nutrition. In addition, he said, studies with humans and mice have shown that both maternal and fetal genotypes - in conjunction with the environment - play a role in susceptibility and resistance to the detrimental effects of in utero alcohol exposure.

"Using mice, we can control for all of these confounding variables," he said. "Within an inbred strain, all mice are virtually genetically identical, greater than 99.9 percent. When one looks at more than one inbred strain of mice, and all mice are housed and treated the same, differences between strains are taken as evidence of a genetic effect."

Downing and his colleagues looked at alcohol teratogenesis in five inbred strains of mice: Inbred Short-Sleep (ISS), C57BL/6J (B6), C3H/Ibg (C3H), A/Ibg (A), and 129S6/SvEvTac (129). Pregnant mice were given either 5.8 g/kg alcohol or maltose-dextrin on day nine (roughly equivalent to days 28-31 of human gestation) of pregnancy. They were subsequently sacrificed on day 18, and their fetuses examined for gross morphological malformations.

The B6 mice that were exposed to alcohol in utero had fetal weight deficits, as well as digit, kidney, brain ventricle and vertebral malformation. In contrast, 129 mice showed no teratogenesis, while the remaining three strains showed varying degrees of teratogenesis.

"In other words, said Downing, "certain strains were sensitive to some effects of prenatal alcohol and resistant to others. The fact that inbred strains differed showed that genetics plays a role."

Downing added that these findings can be extrapolated to humans. "Since genetic effects on prenatal alcohol phenotypes in mice have been demonstrated, and the mouse and human genomes are remarkably similar, it suggests genetics plays a role in humans as well," he said. "Human researchers need to begin to systematically investigate genetic factors mediating susceptibility and resistance to the effects of prenatal alcohol exposure."

This one was another controversial one since some don't believe in testing on animals and such. I don't really have a stand point on that issue so decided to post it anyway.. the link is...
Taken From : http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles...

Why no one involved in this study raised this question, I'll never know.

If mice are 'remarkably' genetically similar to humans, and they used INBRED mice for the study - whereas we all know that inbreeding amongst humans can cause MAJOR birth defects, how do they actually know which defects in the mice were caused by the alcohol as opposed to the redundant inbreeding?

 

I just think that this study is a poor example to anyone with basic genetic knowledge.

Actually, inbreeding is a fundamental tool in genetics research. They do this so that they have a uniform background - all the mice is the study are nearly identical, so any changes generation to generation can be attributed to, in this case, alcohol. It removes variables. When done correctly, you can prevent an increase in homozygosity  - not only is this widely used in research labs, you'll find animal breeders can do this as well.

~Jennifer - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Amie:



Downing said that many factors have been shown to play a role in the development of FASD, including the amount, timing and pattern of maternal alcohol consumption, maternal age and parity, maternal ethnicity and socioeconomic status, cultural factors, maternal smoking and other drug abuse, and maternal diet/nutrition. In addition, he said, studies with humans and mice have shown that both maternal and fetal genotypes - in conjunction with the environment - play a role in susceptibility and resistance to the detrimental effects of in utero alcohol exposure.

"Using mice, we can control for all of these confounding variables," he said. "Within an inbred strain, all mice are virtually genetically identical, greater than 99.9 percent. When one looks at more than one inbred strain of mice, and all mice are housed and treated the same, differences between strains are taken as evidence of a genetic effect."

Downing and his colleagues looked at alcohol teratogenesis in five inbred strains of mice: Inbred Short-Sleep (ISS), C57BL/6J (B6), C3H/Ibg (C3H), A/Ibg (A), and 129S6/SvEvTac (129). Pregnant mice were given either 5.8 g/kg alcohol or maltose-dextrin on day nine (roughly equivalent to days 28-31 of human gestation) of pregnancy. They were subsequently sacrificed on day 18, and their fetuses examined for gross morphological malformations.

The B6 mice that were exposed to alcohol in utero had fetal weight deficits, as well as digit, kidney, brain ventricle and vertebral malformation. In contrast, 129 mice showed no teratogenesis, while the remaining three strains showed varying degrees of teratogenesis.

"In other words, said Downing, "certain strains were sensitive to some effects of prenatal alcohol and resistant to others. The fact that inbred strains differed showed that genetics plays a role."

Downing added that these findings can be extrapolated to humans. "Since genetic effects on prenatal alcohol phenotypes in mice have been demonstrated, and the mouse and human genomes are remarkably similar, it suggests genetics plays a role in humans as well," he said. "Human researchers need to begin to systematically investigate genetic factors mediating susceptibility and resistance to the effects of prenatal alcohol exposure."

This one was another controversial one since some don't believe in testing on animals and such. I don't really have a stand point on that issue so decided to post it anyway.. the link is...
Taken From : http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles...

Why no one involved in this study raised this question, I'll never know.

If mice are 'remarkably' genetically similar to humans, and they used INBRED mice for the study - whereas we all know that inbreeding amongst humans can cause MAJOR birth defects, how do they actually know which defects in the mice were caused by the alcohol as opposed to the redundant inbreeding?

I just think that this study is a poor example to anyone with basic genetic knowledge.

Kate CP - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jaime:

I have stood firm on my belief that there are benefits to drinking while pregnant---this viewpoint has never changed!  I said that I don't need a list of all these benefits because we are not arguing the benefits themselves, we are arguing the existence of them.  Also, I have no idea that my doctor will or will not give me a list of the benefits and neither do you...you are guessing and that does nothing for your point.  I am over myself...I am not trying to prove that I am right...and I'm not trying to prove that you are wrong.  I am saying that just because you believe that drinking during pregnancy is wrong, does not make it wrong, and also that there are known benefits to drinking during pregnancy---there is one study that Amanda mentioned early on in this thread about the benefits (although she discredits this study).

"We're not arguing the benefits themselves, we are argying the existence of them." That's like saying "I don't have to tell you the benefits but I know they're there!" You keep asking for proof and then you fall short of providing your own. 

People rely too heavily on studies and statistics to prove points. While they are important to scientific research they are a dime a dozen. For every study I can show you saying eating bat guano is good for you you can probably find one saying it's not. 

Forget the whole "morally wrong" issue. Morals are personal beliefs and no one can or should change that-especially on a internet chat forum. The real issue here is: do the "pros" out way the cons? If we can determine if one outweighs the other then it should go to prove whether or not alcohol is actually beneficial DURING PREGNANCY. Shall we?

Pros: Cons:

Relaxing Poisonous

Good for your heart Bad for your baby's heart

Source of iron (beers) Bad for your baby's developing kidneys and liver

Tastes good (to some people) Taken from the surgeon general's press release in 2005:

"...Based on the current, best science available we now know the following:

*Alcohol consumed during pregnancy increases the risk of alcohol related birth defects, including growth deficiencies, facial abnormalities, central nervous system impairment, behavioral disorders, and impaired intellectual development.



*No amount of alcohol consumption can be considered safe during pregnancy.



*Alcohol can damage a fetus at any stage of pregnancy. Damage can occur in the earliest weeks of pregnancy, even before a woman knows that she is pregnant.



*The cognitive deficits and behavioral problems resulting from prenatal alcohol exposure are lifelong.

Amie - posted on 05/05/2009

Ok since I had some time this morning while my kids were sleeping I took it upon myself to google benefits of alcohol during pregnancy. Guess what? I got nothing. While there are some studies that have shown it MIGHT BE ok to drink in moderation (and actually gives a list of what moderation is!) they STILL advise to abstain from alcohol since no one really knows what could happen. But there were NO BENEFITS to it! Here's some quotes with the pages they were taken from. It's quite the lengthy just as an FYI.



oh and Jamie Leigh I saw you post TWICE on the benefits of alcohol for adults, naming the liver and kidneys, there's a tidbit in there for you about how that is NOT TRUE. ALCOHOL itself has no real benefits, it's the ingredients and if you need those I'm pretty sure your doctor is going to recommend you get them elsewhere instead of drinking them in an alcoholic beverage.



Potential Problems

For those who might think drinking during pregnancy is no big deal, here is a list of the potential problems their newborns could be facing as a result, according to Missouri Department of Mental Health, Division of Alcohol and Drug Abuse:



* Small body size and weight

* Slower than normal development and failure to "catch up."

* Deformed ribs and sternum

* Curved spine and hip dislocations

* Bent, fused, webbed, or missing fingers or toes

* Limited movement of joints

* Small head

* Facial abnormalities

* Small eye openings

* Skin webbing between eyes and base of nose

* Drooping eyelids

* Nearsightedness

* Failure of eyes to move in same direction

* Short upturned nose

* Sunken nasal bridge

* Flat or absent groove between nose and upper lip

* Thin upper lip

* Opening in roof of mouth

* Small jaw

* Low-set or poorly formed ears

* Organ deformities

* Heart defects or heart murmurs

* Genital malformations

* Kidney and urinary defects

* Central nervous system handicaps

* Small brain

* Faulty arrangement of brain cells and connective tissue

* Mental retardation -- occasionally severe

* Learning disabilities

* Short attention span

* Irritability in infancy

* Hyperactivity in childhood

* Poor body, hand, and finger coordination



Taken From : http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/preg/a/aa...



According to the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, there is no proof of harm from drinking within the limit of no more than one to two units of alcohol, no more than once or twice a week during pregnancy (RCOG 2006a).



One unit of alcohol is approximately equivalent to:



• half a pint of ordinary strength beer, lager, or cider



• a quarter of a pint of strong beer or lager



• two thirds of a bottle of alcopop



• one small glass of wine



• one single measure of spirits



• one small glass of sherry



Don't forget that most people who pour drinks at home tend to be generous with their measures. You may well find that a glass of wine drunk at home is twice the size of a glass of wine drunk in a pub



Researchers don't know for sure what a few drinks over a short period early in pregnancy can do to a developing child (BMA 2007: 7). That's why the experts argue that caution is the wisest course. Once you've started trying for a baby or know you're pregnant, it's best to avoid alcohol or keep to the amounts recommended above.



Taken From : http://www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnancy/nu...



Jamie Leigh:



Heavy, regular drinking has also been associated with many diseases and conditions that can lead to death:



* Cirrhosis of the liver (a disease in which the cells of the organ are irreversibly damaged)



* Kidney failure



* Brain damage (alcohol kills brain cells)



* Cancers of the mouth, esophagus, and stomach



Regular moderate to heavy drinking can also cause stomach ulcers and inflammation of the pancreas, and is associated with pneumonia.



So I don't see how cirrhosis and kidney failure or stomache ulcers for that matter are benefits to any adult but OK! continuing on.....



Not all babies exposed to alcohol before birth are born with FAS. FAS is typically diagnosed only when the facial abnormalities and reduced growth are present-the intellectual and behavioral defects may not be immediately apparent.



The term "Alcohol-Related Neurodevelopmental Disorder" (ARND) is used to describe impairments of the nervous system-brain, spinal cord, or other nerves-that can be linked to alcohol consumption during pregnancy. These impairments may include mental retardation, poor motor skills or hand-eye coordination, severe behavioral problems, learning disabilities, and attention deficit, among others. The term "Alcohol-Related Birth Defects" (ARBD) describes physical or functional defects of the skeleton and other major organ systems.



Because so many factors contribute to the development of the unborn baby, it is impossible to determine a "safe" level of alcohol consumption during pregnancy. Therefore, most health care professionals recommend that women stop drinking alcohol during pregnancy. In fact, since much of the damage associated with alcohol can occur very early in pregnancy-before a woman may know she is pregnant-a woman who is trying to conceive should not drink, either.



Taken From : http://www.ehealthmd.com/library/smoking...



Downing said that many factors have been shown to play a role in the development of FASD, including the amount, timing and pattern of maternal alcohol consumption, maternal age and parity, maternal ethnicity and socioeconomic status, cultural factors, maternal smoking and other drug abuse, and maternal diet/nutrition. In addition, he said, studies with humans and mice have shown that both maternal and fetal genotypes - in conjunction with the environment - play a role in susceptibility and resistance to the detrimental effects of in utero alcohol exposure.



"Using mice, we can control for all of these confounding variables," he said. "Within an inbred strain, all mice are virtually genetically identical, greater than 99.9 percent. When one looks at more than one inbred strain of mice, and all mice are housed and treated the same, differences between strains are taken as evidence of a genetic effect."



Downing and his colleagues looked at alcohol teratogenesis in five inbred strains of mice: Inbred Short-Sleep (ISS), C57BL/6J (B6), C3H/Ibg (C3H), A/Ibg (A), and 129S6/SvEvTac (129). Pregnant mice were given either 5.8 g/kg alcohol or maltose-dextrin on day nine (roughly equivalent to days 28-31 of human gestation) of pregnancy. They were subsequently sacrificed on day 18, and their fetuses examined for gross morphological malformations.



The B6 mice that were exposed to alcohol in utero had fetal weight deficits, as well as digit, kidney, brain ventricle and vertebral malformation. In contrast, 129 mice showed no teratogenesis, while the remaining three strains showed varying degrees of teratogenesis.



"In other words, said Downing, "certain strains were sensitive to some effects of prenatal alcohol and resistant to others. The fact that inbred strains differed showed that genetics plays a role."



Downing added that these findings can be extrapolated to humans. "Since genetic effects on prenatal alcohol phenotypes in mice have been demonstrated, and the mouse and human genomes are remarkably similar, it suggests genetics plays a role in humans as well," he said. "Human researchers need to begin to systematically investigate genetic factors mediating susceptibility and resistance to the effects of prenatal alcohol exposure."



This one was another controversial one since some don't believe in testing on animals and such. I don't really have a stand point on that issue so decided to post it anyway.. the link is...

Taken From : http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles...

Emily - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jennifer:

Personally, I think that 'beneficial' is entirely the wrong word to have used in this thread. Yes, there are studies about the 'benefits' of red wine on heart health.....yes there are studies on the benefits of iron levels of low alcohol beers (ie: Guinness). Yes there are studies on the results of excessive drinking. There are studies for everything.

I think what should have been asked was whether a glass of wine or 2 a week or a low alcohol beer a week is harmful - period. Adding the word 'beneficial' just opened up a can of " I'm stuck on this one word" replies.

No one should consider alcohol beneficial. Enjoyable in moderation, yes, but beneficial? I don't think so. Alcohol isn't water - you don't NEED it to live, but people ENJOY it and therefore, make use of it.

Different people, different locations, different doctors, different opinions.

I can say though, in my experience, while discussing the upcoming Christmas holiday with my doctor during the last 2 months of my pregnancy, and telling him that I was not looking forward to the usual family drama, he did say - "If it gets that bad, you can have a glass of wine to relax - you're in your last trimester."

I agree with this post. Every word interestingly enough from the semantics of the thread title to the "Different people, different locations,different doctors, different opinions." I have refrained from posting until now because of these reasons. I have had several OBs and midwives agreee that the risks of a small glass of wine here and there during pregnancy are minimal. I chose not to drink during either pregancy but growing up in Europe I was exposed to drinking in extreme moderation during pregnancy quite often. FAS is real and it is horrible but common sense dictates that a sip or two is not going to cause it.

~Jennifer - posted on 05/05/2009

Personally, I think that 'beneficial' is entirely the wrong word to have used in this thread. Yes, there are studies about the 'benefits' of red wine on heart health.....yes there are studies on the benefits of iron levels of low alcohol beers (ie: Guinness). Yes there are studies on the results of excessive drinking. There are studies for everything.

I think what should have been asked was whether a glass of wine or 2 a week or a low alcohol beer a week is harmful - period. Adding the word 'beneficial' just opened up a can of " I'm stuck on this one word" replies.

No one should consider alcohol beneficial. Enjoyable in moderation, yes, but beneficial? I don't think so. Alcohol isn't water - you don't NEED it to live, but people ENJOY it and therefore, make use of it.

Different people, different locations, different doctors, different opinions.

I can say though, in my experience, while discussing the upcoming Christmas holiday with my doctor during the last 2 months of my pregnancy, and telling him that I was not looking forward to the usual family drama, he did say - "If it gets that bad, you can have a glass of wine to relax - you're in your last trimester."

Lindsey - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Lindsey:

Quoting Jaime:

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there are benefits to drinking, and also drinking while pregnant. I don't need to go to my doctor to get a list of these benefits because the point is not to argue all the benefits or to argue all the risks, the point is to say that there is merit to both sides of this discussion, which leads me back to the point that just because you believe it is wrong, does not make it wrong.

then why did u agure several posts earlier about the benefits to it...i think ur saying this now because u know normal drs in the right mind won't give u a list of benefits....like i said before the day i have to rely on alcohol to benefit my life..shoot me of pull the plug because this life isn't going to be reliant..on alcohol to save it

I have stood firm on my belief that there are benefits to drinking while pregnant---this viewpoint has never changed!  I said that I don't need a list of all these benefits because we are not arguing the benefits themselves, we are arguing the existence of them.  Also, I have no idea that my doctor will or will not give me a list of the benefits and neither do you...you are guessing and that does nothing for your point.  I am over myself...I am not trying to prove that I am right...and I'm not trying to prove that you are wrong.  I am saying that just because you believe that drinking during pregnancy is wrong, does not make it wrong, and also that there are known benefits to drinking during pregnancy---there is one study that Amanda mentioned early on in this thread about the benefits (although she discredits this study).

i actually do know my dr wouldn't give me a list of benefits when they told me to completely stay away from alcohol...if she told me not to drink why would she give me a list of reason WHY I SHOULD

Debbie - posted on 05/05/2009

Quoting Debbie:

First of all Joy, I am not being catty. I am entitled to my own opinion and freedom of speech. Do you know when you are pregnant the alcohol that you consume passes through the placenta and reaches you baby. This means when you drink your baby drinks. The impact of your alcohol consumption on your baby is far more significant then the impact it has on you. After all you are much larger then your baby and you are not in the midst of developing your lungs, brain, etc...Fetal alcohol syndrome is the leading cause of mental retardation. That is something that cannot be treated with medicine or something that has a cure. People say "my sister, aunt, cousin etc. drank when they were pregnant and their baby is fine". I say fine compared to what? The baby may be of normal intelligence, but what might it have been if no alcohol was consumed. The only baby you can compare it to is the baby it could have been if alcohol wasn't involved. With that being said, I ask you if the risk is worth a lifetime of regret?

I am quoting myself because these are the FACTS!!!  When I google in "Are there benifits to drinking alcohol when pregnant"?  My computer asks me if I'm FLIPPEN NUTS for even asking that  question. I get nothing.  Jaime, you keep repeating yourself saying there are benifits to drinking when pregnant. Show me! Post a link!  List the benifits for me. Because I  cant find them.    

Devon - posted on 05/05/2009

They say that you can have a glass of wine a day and it won't harm your baby. personally i wouldn't drink at all. any alcohol isn't good for the baby growing inside of a person and it can lead to ton's of different birthing defects. so i would stay clear of it and if you have to, talk to your doctor about it.

Ange - posted on 05/04/2009

This post is for Jamie Leigh. Honey I really don't think anyone is trying to insult you. However if you did actually talk to your doctor about this.. And obviously you have not, He or she would tell you exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Yes a glass wine has benefits (when you are not pregnant!) Yes barley and most ingredients of certain alcoholic beverages can be beneficial, (When you AREN'T pregnant) However maybe you should browse through some ACTUAL MEDICAL STUDIES, not the internet. Then you would know that alcohol is proven to do nothing beneficial for a fetus, and not only that but even in small amounts could have catastrophic effects on a developing fetus. AGAIN, I am Not antagonizing you or insulting you but honestly, you sound like you are on a whim, speaking from nothing but ignorance of the subject. If you didn't want to be part of a debate you probably shouldn't have taken part in it over and over again. I urge you to ACTUALLY TALK to your doctor about this. There is no way, and I mean no way.. coming from a long line of doctors and nurses.. that they would say drinking is ok during pregnancy. If they say it is .. Well seeing how high malpractice insurance is for a medical practitioner let alone an o.b. Not going to happen. But let's say they did. Get a new doctor honey because there will never be a legitimate medical study that shows alcohol is beneficial in the SLIGHTEST, to a fetus.
I wish you the best, but really do some research.

Ange - posted on 05/04/2009

No matter what anyone tells you.. Any doctor will tell you absolutely not.

I would surely say that there are many women who think it's ok to have a drink on a special occasion.. Honestly think about this. You're building a child from scratch in there. Brain cells and vital organs are developing. Everyone is different. Fetal alcohol syndrome does not discriminate. You have to ask your self if it is really worth the glass of wine or drink of choice to you.

I was always a social drinker, went out on weekends partied it up with friends and such. When I found out that I was pregnant, my social life didn't die. I just stopped drinking.. There is plenty enough enjoyment in knowing you are growing a child inside you (at least there is for me). Honestly I don't see any reason to risk it. One glass, or three, one gathering or a night on the town. If you have ever met a child with fetal alcohol syndrome, you would understand how devastating something as simple as a drink could be to a developing fetus.

Anyway, Hope this was somewhat help full. I wish everyone luck in mother hood and may we all have happy healthy babies!

Ange - posted on 05/04/2009

No matter what anyone tells you.. Any doctor will tell you absolutely not.

I would surely say that there are many women who think it's ok to have a drink on a special occasion.. Honestly think about this. You're building a child from scratch in there. Brain cells and vital organs are developing. Everyone is different. Fetal alcohol syndrome does not discriminate. You have to ask your self if it is really worth the glass of wine or drink of choice to you.

I was always a social drinker, went out on weekends partied it up with friends and such. When I found out that I was pregnant, my social life didn't die. I just stopped drinking.. There is plenty enough enjoyment in knowing you are growing a child inside you (at least there is for me). Honestly I don't see any reason to risk it. One glass, or three, one gathering or a night on the town. If you have ever met a child with fetal alcohol syndrome, you would understand how devastating something as simple as a drink could be to a developing fetus.

Anyway, Hope this was somewhat help full. I wish everyone luck in mother hood and may we all have happy healthy babies!

Jaime - posted on 05/04/2009

that comment posted twice by accident...not sure how

Jaime - posted on 05/04/2009

Why do you resort to insults? I have not ever been insulting toward anyone that has posted a comment on this thread. I have remained respectful of differing opinions while debating the issue of the benefits of drinking during pregnancy. "Get a life"?---really, has it come down to this? So, because I enjoy debating an issue on a discussion forum I have no life? Is information not a crucial component to education and success in life? Why then, is it difficult to consider both sides of an argument--even if you stand firm on one side or the other? Millions of people believing that something is wrong, still doesn't make it wrong. If you find my posts annoying or unhelpful because you believe that I am giving mothers horrible advice, then I will point out that I'm not advising anyone of anything. I am advocating for choice.

Melissa - posted on 05/04/2009

why comment just to say the same thing? Do you really need the last word?

Jaime - posted on 05/04/2009

Quoting Lindsey:

Quoting Jaime:

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there are benefits to drinking, and also drinking while pregnant. I don't need to go to my doctor to get a list of these benefits because the point is not to argue all the benefits or to argue all the risks, the point is to say that there is merit to both sides of this discussion, which leads me back to the point that just because you believe it is wrong, does not make it wrong.

then why did u agure several posts earlier about the benefits to it...i think ur saying this now because u know normal drs in the right mind won't give u a list of benefits....like i said before the day i have to rely on alcohol to benefit my life..shoot me of pull the plug because this life isn't going to be reliant..on alcohol to save it

I have stood firm on my belief that there are benefits to drinking while pregnant---this viewpoint has never changed!  I said that I don't need a list of all these benefits because we are not arguing the benefits themselves, we are arguing the existence of them.  Also, I have no idea that my doctor will or will not give me a list of the benefits and neither do you...you are guessing and that does nothing for your point.  I am over myself...I am not trying to prove that I am right...and I'm not trying to prove that you are wrong.  I am saying that just because you believe that drinking during pregnancy is wrong, does not make it wrong, and also that there are known benefits to drinking during pregnancy---there is one study that Amanda mentioned early on in this thread about the benefits (although she discredits this study).

Melissa - posted on 05/04/2009

totally agree or even un helpful

Kylie - posted on 05/04/2009

OMG next to Was this post...? helpful nice funny they need add annoying. Whatever happened to making your point and being done with it. Get a life Jaime and get off the computer FFS!!

Melissa - posted on 05/04/2009

IT IS NOT A FEW PEOPLE WHO THINK IT IS WRONG IT IS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IT ISNT A FRAME OF THOUGHT IT IS REAL LIFE

Melissa - posted on 05/04/2009

IT IS NOT A FEW PEOPLE WHO THINK IT IS WRONG IT IS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IT ISNT A FRAME OF THOUGHT IT IS REAL LIFE

Jaime - posted on 05/04/2009

Quoting Lindsey:

Quoting Jaime:

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there are benefits to drinking, and also drinking while pregnant. I don't need to go to my doctor to get a list of these benefits because the point is not to argue all the benefits or to argue all the risks, the point is to say that there is merit to both sides of this discussion, which leads me back to the point that just because you believe it is wrong, does not make it wrong.

then why did u agure several posts earlier about the benefits to it...i think ur saying this now because u know normal drs in the right mind won't give u a list of benefits....like i said before the day i have to rely on alcohol to benefit my life..shoot me of pull the plug because this life isn't going to be reliant..on alcohol to save it

I have stood firm on my belief that there are benefits to drinking while pregnant---this viewpoint has never changed!  I said that I don't need a list of all these benefits because we are not arguing the benefits themselves, we are arguing the existence of them.  Also, I have no idea that my doctor will or will not give me a list of the benefits and neither do you...you are guessing and that does nothing for your point.  I am over myself...I am not trying to prove that I am right...and I'm not trying to prove that you are wrong.  I am saying that just because you believe that drinking during pregnancy is wrong, does not make it wrong, and also that there are known benefits to drinking during pregnancy---there is one study that Amanda mentioned early on in this thread about the benefits (although she discredits this study).

Melissa - posted on 05/04/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Melissa:

Get over your self!! Educate myself because I didnt drink not even once. The possibility of it harming my baby was enough to make me not drink

I believe I said that I would never suggest that you need to educate yourself so that you have a more acceptable opinion on the matter.  I accept your opinion and I respect your choice...how has this offended you?  You keep telling me that I need to educate myself so that I can grow from this (whatever that means), which suggests to me that you think I need to have a different opinion on this matter.

Yeah I do think that I also think my drinking while pregnant to relieve stress or to fix problems is the wrong message to send to our children and we could teach them way way better coping strategies

Jaime - posted on 05/04/2009

Quoting Melissa:

Get over your self!! Educate myself because I didnt drink not even once. The possibility of it harming my baby was enough to make me not drink

I believe I said that I would never suggest that you need to educate yourself so that you have a more acceptable opinion on the matter.  I accept your opinion and I respect your choice...how has this offended you?  You keep telling me that I need to educate myself so that I can grow from this (whatever that means), which suggests to me that you think I need to have a different opinion on this matter.

Lindsey - posted on 05/04/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there are benefits to drinking, and also drinking while pregnant. I don't need to go to my doctor to get a list of these benefits because the point is not to argue all the benefits or to argue all the risks, the point is to say that there is merit to both sides of this discussion, which leads me back to the point that just because you believe it is wrong, does not make it wrong.

then why did u agure several posts earlier about the benefits to it...i think ur saying this now because u know normal drs in the right mind won't give u a list of benefits....like i said before the day i have to rely on alcohol to benefit my life..shoot me of pull the plug because this life isn't going to be reliant..on alcohol to save it