Infant car seats should be banned, not drop side cribs.....

Katherine - posted on 12/20/2010 ( 44 moms have responded )

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We just saw the ban of drop-side cribs after 32 infants were killed in a 10-year period -- so an average of around three deaths a year. However, something else was responsible for the death of 508 babies in a nine-year period, 43,562 injuries in a five-year period -- and is still totally legal.

Infant car seats.

Specifically, the kind that can be removed from the car. But who is at fault, and how is it any different than the ban of the cribs?

And where do you draw the line between personal and manufacturer responsibility?

Lenore Skenazy wrote a little bit on the crib recall and how there are just going to be inherit risks with some things like a ball rolling into the street, for example, and how at some point, parents just need to take responsibility ... and frankly, I agree.

She also says, though, that if a parent is going to assemble something, they should take care to do it correctly, and it's their responsibility to deal with assembly that isn't safe. That on the other hand, I disagree with. Unless a company has someone come out and build all cribs, or has you sign a waiver, it is their responsibility to provide either a fully-assembled product, or ensure the safety of their product as long as the directions were followed. The issue with the cribs was that even with proper construction, the design was just poor.



Cribs like this are still safe.The cribs with a secure side that fold down a portion of the top, outward, on a hinge, are still legal, by the way, for those who are worried about not being able to get a baby out without falling in yourself. Was there a warning in the manuals of the death-trap cribs that said that even with proper construction, your baby could still slide down and get trapped? Probably not, because it shouldn't happen.

But when it comes to infant car seats, it clearly says never to put the car seat on an elevated surface, and yet tens of thousands of infants end up hurt or killed each year because their parent did exactly that -- often on the top of a shopping cart, even though the cart AND car seat BOTH say it's dangerous. They are also placed on a bed or counter where the baby falls off and can suffocate on the soft surface or smack their head.

Not to mention the fact that it's pretty sad if an infant has an entire trip out of the house, into a store, then back home, never being unstrapped or held even once (and people blame flat heads on the Back to Sleep campaign?), but it's pretty dang obvious that trying to wedge your car seat on top of a cart, five feet off the ground, with your precious cargo in it, isn't too smart and it shouldn't be surprising that they fall off like both the cart AND the seat warn you they will, and get hurt.

Then you take into consideration that even if you set the car seat on the floor, with no risk of falling, that babies still can suffocate because most seats aren't designed to be at the right angle on the floor to still allow proper breathing like when it's installed in the car.

So, infant seats are dangerous for the baby to be in, whenever they're out of the car, and cause way, WAY more injuries every single year than cribs, yet these cribs are banned. I suppose, what we're to gather from this, is that as long as people kill their babies by breaking repeatedly printed rules and don't use common sense, we'll continue to sell an inherently more dangerous product? Didn't we ban children's cough syrup because parents refused to pay attention to the proper dosage? How is the car seat issue any different?

Personally, when I look at these statistics, I think drop-side cribs should merely be redesigned, but infant car seats should be banned and manufacturers should just make convertible seats with lower harnesses and weight limits for newborns. Keeping the car seats in the car would help keep kids safe.

Which would be more logical of a ban? Infant car seats or drop-side cribs?

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Mary - posted on 12/21/2010

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I don't think it's a reasonable comparison.

Injuries occurred with drop-sided cribs where user-error was not a factor.

Injuries occurring with the infant car seat are the result of user error.

After all this hubub, the only way I see drop-sided cribs being re-introduced is if they are both redesigned AND delivered to the home fully assembled. Of course, by then, they will be so outrageously expensive that I doubt many of us would or could buy them.

Katherine - posted on 12/20/2010

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Personally, when I look at these statistics, I think drop-side cribs should merely be redesigned, but infant car seats should be banned and manufacturers should just make convertible seats with lower harnesses and weight limits for newborns. Keeping the car seats in the car would help keep kids safe.

Absolutely agree with this.

Tracy - posted on 12/21/2010

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You really can't legislate out the stupid in society. I've used the drop side cribs for years, safely. I've used the car seats for years, safely. I co-slept for years, safely. I've managed to drive around with my kids and never "forget" them in a boiling hot car. Parenting isn't about demanding this that or the other guy take responsibilty for your own inability to pay attention. It's about using your brain, paying attention and being a parent, for the love of socks!

Sorry, this mentality of someone else is supposed to protect us from our stupid irritates me. You'd think we were on the brink of extinction because of how deadly an item that's killed.... 32 in 10 years.... Averaging 3.2 deaths in a year. Common illnesses kill more a year. Maybe when the infant comes out of the womb we shoudl stuff them in a hermetically sealed, germ-proof, offense/bullying proof bubble. Just keep the blind, mute and dumb until they're at least 18.

Laura - posted on 12/21/2010

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A redesign or improvement in the quality of parts used could solve the drop-side crib problem without having to resort to an all-out ban. Knee-jerk reactions to perceived problems rarely work out well for anyone.

Car seats, based on the statistics/data, logically and rationally should be banned. HOWEVER, the "benefit to risk" assessment and perception is that they provide more safety (benefit) than not using them. One could argue, perhaps, that this is a "false" perception of safety, especially since other data shows that up to 95% of infant car seats are used and installed incorrectly anyway! This is not neccessarily due to a design or manufacturing flaw--this is "user error", to borrow a computer term. On the flip side, there is compelling data that shows they actually DO provide security to an infant when used properly in the event of a car collision! The key is "used properly", which data also shows doesn't happen very often. Ultimately it is up to the comsumer/parent to make the decision on how they will use these devices and even whether these devices offer appropriate safety for their child. A lot of data indicates that car seats may not have the benefits parents thought, but politicians/legislators think otherwise--hence the mandatory laws in most states requiring car seats for kids...

Medic - posted on 12/21/2010

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Yes the US has safety standards unfortunately we also have an abundance of raging morons that make ingenious decisions and ultimately ruin it for the small few of us that can read the warning labels.....don't you remember when the bumbo seats were recalled because too many stupid mothers put their kids in it then set them on the table only to have them.......you guessed it.....FALL OFF the freaking table.

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Dora - posted on 04/06/2014

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Don't hail the "new" crib just yet! In a matter of time - to be fair - 10 years since recall of drop sides - it'd be quite astonishing if we see zero infant death over the duration. The weightiest factor playing into "banning" these cribs is the preying on vulnerable consumers - particularly new moms!

Dawn - posted on 12/27/2010

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\I agree not mention with the infant carseats...not mention the studies done on the fact that most of these seats when travelling at a highway speed will come unlatched from the base and the child is thrown from the vehicle...there are only two carseats that past the test of 60 miles an hour all the rest failed!!! why then aren't these banned?

Katherine - posted on 12/27/2010

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I think they are just talking about the bucket seats, not the actual car seat ;) People are dangerous with those bucket seats and myself included have done some, well, not so smart things.

Mrs. - posted on 12/27/2010

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Um, I don't have a car. I have to remove the car seat and haul it back to the apt. What about the people who live in big cities, close to public transit/subway and only use the car if it's a rental or car share?

Sherri - posted on 12/27/2010

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Wow hats off to you Sylvia could never have lived without my cribs. My kids never co slept and slept 100% of the time for naps and bed in their cribs until they were 3 yrs old. Never once did they climb out either they loved their cribs.

Sylvia - posted on 12/27/2010

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I agree on the drop-side cribs. (Disclaimer: have 8-year-old who co-slept full-time until getting own room at age 4. Have never owned crib of any kind.)

I don't think banning bucket carseats is necessarily the answer, but I do think people misuse them in an appalling manner. I've seen them perched unsecured on top of grocery carts, left on the floor in high-traffic areas where the baby inside could easily be kicked in the face by someone passing, left on countertops or perched on armless dining-room chairs where they could easily be knocked off or could fall off if the baby wiggled enthusiastically, even -- I swear I am not making this up -- left on top of a running washer or dryer. And maybe worse is the number of babies I've seen who are put in the carseat at the beginning of a trip out of the house and never leave the seat until they get home again, except maybe for a diaper change. It's bad enough when the baby in question is calm and seems reasonably contented in the seat, but so often they're clearly frantic for some human contact, or maybe just a change of position, and nobody takes them out of there. I once had to leave a store with DD because she became so distraught about someone else's baby who was crying and crying in a bucket seat strapped into one of those "travel system" strollers, and the baby's grown-up just kept pushing the stroller and, as far as we could tell, ignoring the crying. I probably should have been brave and said something, but what do you say? I've been the victim of so many mommy drive-bys myself (was I sure the baby could breathe in that snugli thing? was she warm enough? wasn't I afraid of dropping her? etc.), I hate to do that to another parents ... but sometimes I really want to.

I also just wonder, you know, why people burden themselves with carrying those huge, heavy bucket seats around when they could just carry the much smaller, much lighter-weight baby instead. But the safety thing is really blatant -- those seats are PLASTERED with warnings about all the things I mentioned above, plus some others probably, yet people do them ALL THE TIME.

Andrea - posted on 12/26/2010

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Our bucket seat was recalled because some of the handles fell off (with baby in it). I don't consider that user error. It didn't happen to us though.

As for the baby not being able to breathe properly. Before we could take our son home, the hospital had us bring in the seat. He had to sit in it for an hour with an oxygen monitor on. He had to have good O2 sats before he could leave in it. Some parents had to but new seats if their child couldn't pass the test in the one they brought. If the baby can't breathe right in their seat, the seat is not suitable for them.

Drop side cribs shouldn't be banned, just redesigned.

[deleted account]

Honestly neither. Our drop side is over 10 years old. It's rail is really worn so we don't slid it down now since it takes a lot of work to get it back up properly. But we also bought it second hand.

I'm curious how many parents read the saftey instructions. I didn't know about the shopping cart thing until I read them. The design of our infant seat would make it impossible to have it on the seat of the cart. We put it in the main basket. If it was a long shopping trip, she went in the sling.

As for the suffication our seat has it's handle go back all the way and it props it up like as if it was in the car it also has a non slide rubber piece to the handle so it wont slide around on the floor.

Dangers are everywhere it's our responsablility as parents to protect our kids from those things... and to read instructions.

It's kind of like those kids that got strangled in the strollers because their parents didn't latch them in and they slid out. The straps aren't there for decoration.

Brandi - posted on 12/22/2010

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I agree that misuse of infant car seats is rampant and that parents need to take more responsibility when using them.
However, if you live in a climate where it is -15 and colder for 4 or 5 months of the year, these seats make transporting your newborn/infant much safer. It's way better to be able to throw a warm blanket over the whole car seat and keep baby warm then try carry them while trying to keep them fully covered and possibly risking having a blanket right on their face. As moms we're often taking baby out by ourselves and have bulky winter jackets on as well plus have to carry their diaper bag, etc. Keeping them safely warm is an issue too when the seat has to remain in the car, especially for newborns.

Basically, parents need to be more mindful of their actions when using any product for babies.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/21/2010

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Well, infant car seats are necessary for car use that is for sure. Katherine, did you not use the removable ones? I feel that I am a responsible parent, and I do own one. When my child is asleep, I certainly do not have to wake her to take her inside and place her on the floor to finish her nap. When we are going shopping, she will sometimes she will fall asleep in her carseat while walking her in the mall (straight from the car to the stroller) I think this is rather genius. Particularly for parents that have infants that cannot sit up in a conventional stroller. I have a baby Bjorn, and I will tell you, after 15 minutes of having her in it, my back hurts. I do not trust slings. We have the snap in carriages at the store. I see where you are going with this, but I would be lost without it.

Sherri - posted on 12/21/2010

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Mine were always in the car seat or stroller when out. I personally HATE the backpacks. Held, floor, bouncer, swing or crib at around 4 mo's we introduce walker and jolly jumper when at home.

Amy - posted on 12/21/2010

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wow...just read this and i agree 100% never thought about the flat head when sitting in carseat...me myself hold my kids when ever i get a chance and shopping is one of those times....or wear a backpack! great thoughts girl!

Jessie - posted on 12/21/2010

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Well convertible car seats are not safe for all babies if they are smaller. My child was 5lbs and 12 oz at birth but went down to 5 lbs and 8 oz, and was technically an oz under the weight for her infant car seat. She has a convertible car seat now that can reverse face from 5- 40 lbs and there is NO way she would have been safe as an infant. I am guilty of putting her seat on top of the cart though and in the bottom at times when I was by myself in a store. I was always careful though and she was never hurt. I've also put her infant carseat on a couch and table before. However, I would NEVER leave her there unattended and it was always to either get her out of, or if there were a lot of people around. I'm sure I wasn't always perfect but I did everything to make sure nothing would happen to her and don't think of myself as a bad mom. However, I think infant car seats, convertible car seats, and dropside cribs all have their pros and cons. When using things correctly and making sure things are properly installed we have the least chance of harm. Banning anything is normally not the way to fix the situation because I truly believe everything is a potential danger.

Phyllis - posted on 12/21/2010

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wait. when did they ban children's cough syrup? I buy it all the time...

Amber - posted on 12/21/2010

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Our hospital supplies new parents with a car seat that is tested for safety. They help you strap the baby in the first time and then walk to you to the car and check to make sure that they are properly installed in the car. They take the time to make sure that parents understand how a car seat should be used and installed.

The shopping carts here have baby seats attached to the top of them. They are part of the cart. No need to bring your baby seat with you.
If you do bring your seat, they clip to the carts and there are bars on the cart to keep the seat from sliding at all.

People just need to be told how to not be idiots with their children sometimes. It shouldn't be necessary, but it is.

Krista - posted on 12/21/2010

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I think that when it comes to child safety, it's not an either/or proposition.

It's BOTH.

On one hand, things just are NOT built as well as they used to be. Our disposable society has resulted in a bunch of cheap crap on the market that, even if assembled right and inspected regularly, is not built to last.

And then of course you have parents who take dumb risks, and even if provided with the most safe item on the planet, would manage to find a rather spectacular way to make it UNsafe.

Basically, and sadly, there is no way to completely and utterly prevent tragedies. But until we a) completely change our economy to go back to one where consumer goods were built well [but were a lot less affordable for the average family] and b) sterilize stupid people, then I'm afraid that the toothpaste is well out of the tube.

And it's only going to get worse and worse as time goes on, methinks.

Amanda - posted on 12/21/2010

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Thats 3.2 deaths a year that are completely preventible is the point Tracy. Thats 32 children that died not because of the lack of responsiblity of a parent, but the lack of responsiblity of companies to make safe items for children to sleep in. There is a safe style of crib for children to sleep in, its been around for years, but for many familys spending 300+ dollars on a crib is not possible, when you can get a poorly made one for 100 dollars or less.

Sherri - posted on 12/21/2010

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Mine always clicked into the shopping carts, if they were napping I certainly left them in their seats. No need to disturb them. To just hang out a home though No. I will admit to placing them on the table or couch in their seats so they wouldn't get trampled by the older kids. It was safer. However, I always made sure they were pushed way back and had no possible way of falling. I always put them in the high chairs flipped upside down too in a restaurant too. However, the waitresses always flipped them for us we never did that on our own.

Do these things make me irresponsible? To me no, however, to others they may think over the top irresponsible.

[deleted account]

The hospital here checks to make sure you buckle your baby in right but they don't check the base. I know a few people who bought got a convertible one right away because it saved them $80+.
I don't no if they should be banned (I was in a mood last night). They are very convenient but I would love to backhand some moms I know:)

[deleted account]

My husband brought our vehicle to the police station to have the infant car seats and bases installed properly. I think everyone should do that or at least for the first time so they can be shown.

Now I must say my infant car seats were a blessing. I have twins. Theyhave out grown the seats now but when I was using them I could just pop the seats out of thebase and attach the seats to the double stroller. It's a great thing for when you are by yourself and need to run in the store for a few items. I have never placed my seats on the shopping cart nor have I left them in their seats for long periods of time. That's neglect.

Katherine - posted on 12/21/2010

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No, people are really dumb, Christina.....really dumb. Just like they had to recall bumbo's because dumbo parents were placing their infants on the table and they were falling off.

People don't pay attention, I have seen them jam seats into small carts, put them in the bottom of a cart. We now have carts that are car seat friendly where it clicks into the seat. But people really need to watch it.

C. - posted on 12/21/2010

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Katherine.. WOW!!!! I totally agree that Dropside cribs should simply be redesigned.



On to the infant car seats.. This makes me think EVEN MORE that the majority of these infant deaths are from user error (both the cribs and the car seats).



Do people not realize what they're doing??



*Edited to add: No, I don't think infant car seats should be banned. I think people just need to pay attention to what they are doing.*

Sherri - posted on 12/21/2010

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Amanda now that I think about it, I think it may be the same here too. I just assumed it was because we were driving but they never did ask that they just said we had to have one and bring it in to be inspected etc.

Jodi - posted on 12/21/2010

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Do you know, with my first, they checked that we had the car seat properly fitted, etc, before we were allowed to leave the hospital. But I am trying to remember with my daughter, and do you know, I don't think they bothered checking? I didn't think anything of it at the time, because we HAD gone and had the seat fitted properly, but this just made me think, they didn't CHECK before we took her home, they just let us take her. They just asked the question on the check list.

Amanda - posted on 12/21/2010

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In my area Sherri all babys have to leave in a car seat no matter how they are getting home (even walking).

Sherri - posted on 12/21/2010

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Ok there was some confusion I took it as bucket seats as in a car not an infant car seat. I understand now.

I know in the hospitals here you have to have an infant car seat with you to be able to leave the hospital. You have to bring it into the hospital they have to inspect it and approve it or they do not legally have to release your child (if leaving by car). On your release date you buckle your child in the car seat and the nurses have to carry the child to the car. They then watch to make sure you put it in the car correctly before they will allow you to leave. I know this was the case with all 3 of my kids and they aren't all close in age either.

Katherine - posted on 12/21/2010

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The OP is saying that you should use convertible car seats instead of the buckets seats so that people don't take in the seat with their child in it. You can get rear facing 0-25 lbs here. Or 30. She is saying it's much safer that always leaving your child in the bucket seat rather than just taking them out when you go somewhere.

Jodi - posted on 12/21/2010

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Sherri, I think she means it will cause fewer infant deaths, not fewer accidents. Probably just an error in her post......I think?

Sherri - posted on 12/21/2010

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Katherine outlawing bucket seats will cause less accidents?? I don't understand. Why will they cause less accidents?

Katherine - posted on 12/21/2010

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When she says car seats should be banned she is talking about the non-convertible ones.

People are not so smart, they don't adhere to warnings. If it says don't do something, they do the opposite. I agree with the blogger, if we outlawed bucket seats they would be a lot less accidents.

[deleted account]

OMG I have no idea what kind of seats those are, but I can't imagine keeping a baby in a seat all night long! Our car seats have been convertible ones that I use up to age 3 with my boys. The only other kind of seat I've seen are baby capsules, which are like a basket shape seat that clicks into a base like you said. But those are only used for 6 months and most people just hire them from the ambulance service because it's a waste of money to buy for such a short time, not to mention it's cheaper.

I have a drop side convertible cot that I've used for both boys as a side car to our bed, so the drop side has never been on the cot. Aren't there safety standards on cots in the US?

[deleted account]

I don't like the infant car seats because of how many people I have seen do stupid things with them. Some shopping carts are big enough and the infant seat locks into them but older shopping carts are small. I have seen an infant seat fall off of a shopping cart and the mom instantly started saying how she should sue the store, she didn't even take the baby out of the seat just let her cry. Working at a daycare I saw a lot of babies who never left their car seat. One mom even told me, "If he won't listen just lock him in his seat" he was almost 2 years old. Another mom brought her baby in one morning and when I pulled him out he had milk crusted to his butt and his seat, he had been in there all night.

They are misused so often that it is scary.

Amanda - posted on 12/20/2010

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The difference is parents CHOOSE to endanger their children by misusing an infant car seat, not all parents do this I sure as hell didnt, but then I also have never owed one of those drop down cribs EVER my oldest two never used a crib because the dangers of those beds werent worth the risk.

So one is a choice, the other for many familys is not a choice. All the babies I know in the last 3 years, most of them slept in those drop down side beds because it was all they could afford.

I do feel bad for mothers with disablitys who cant reach in to get their child out, but all you healthy moms should be able to get your child in and out of a crib. Im 5 foot 3 and I could get my youngest child out even as a new born at the lowest setting on her NONE drop down crib (which was about 2 inchs off the ground on the lowest position). If I can do it anyone without a disability can. Those who do have a disablitity should be able to speciality order these cribs that have been ban.

Katherine - posted on 12/20/2010

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We have those bucket seats that lock into a base and people take out the car seat with the child in it. The they put them in a shopping cart or whatever and it's really dangerous.
No i didn't write that lol. Copied and pasted :P

Sherri - posted on 12/20/2010

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The cribs should be redesigned, the car seats should not be banned though either sorry. Honestly though I am too tired to go into it right now so this is all I am going to write. May be back to write more tomorrow.

[deleted account]

Personally, when I look at these statistics, I think drop-side cribs should merely be redesigned, but infant car seats should be banned and manufacturers should just make convertible seats with lower harnesses and weight limits for newborns. Keeping the car seats in the car would help keep kids safe.

I agree too:)
I have this car seat and it adjusts to fit a newborn.
http://www.diapers.com/product/productde...

[deleted account]

Didn't you just write that? So I would assume you'd agree with it. lol

Seriously though, what kind of infant seats are you talking about?? I don't understand why someone would bother to go through the headache to take the car seat out rather than just the baby. Given your stats, I'd say ban the seat, not the cot.

Children's cough mixture is banned??? Really? When did that happen?

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