is our son being abused or are they just mentally ill?

Krista - posted on 03/01/2012

Due to the increased personal attacks, I am locking this thread.



Thank you.



Krista E.

WTCOM Moderator

Kaitlin - posted on 03/01/2012

Hey moderators, between all the back and forth, anger and hate filled conversations, and the increasing theory that this is a fake topic and perhaps a fake profile, can we please block/lock this?

Amanda - posted on 03/01/2012

Btw I dont care about state laws. State laws do not tell you how a child is really feeling. My abuser never went to jail because he was 17, and those stupid laws. It doesnt change how I felt as a child being sexually abused.



I can tell you when you are abused, you feel worthless, alone, and powerless. You cant understand why in your mind you know this is wrong, but your body is telling you it isnt. The guilt eats you up daily, through out the day, while the fear sits on the edge of your emotions just waiting to leap out when the abuse is about to start again. You spend many hours of the day flashing back to the abuse, and spend the other part of the day wishing your life would end, or you had another life. When you dont have these thoughts, you are wondering why god put you here, or what you did so wrong that you deserve this kind of treatment. You wonder if you should tell someone, but if you tell someone will they blame you?



Think about that the next time you want to claim your younger sons mental issues are the cause of the abuse, and consider that maybe the abuse is cause of the mental problems.



Im done ranting, if that doesnt help you understand where both your sons are coming from, then nothing will.

Amanda - posted on 03/01/2012

"it hasn't neither of them say that plus logically think a 10 year old rarely abuses plus I was pretty overprotective."



You are 1000% WRONG. Children act out sexually all the time at young ages, because they are abused. Its one of the FIRST signs of abuse in a child, over eatting is another (many woman gain weight after abuse so men will not find them attractive, this also goes for boys who are abused), cutting is also a major sign, and of course drug use. Both your sons very much have the characatisics of abused children.



Are you on the defence because of guilt? You know guilt for a mother is also 100% normal after they find out their child has been abused. Esp a stay at home mom, since we are with our kids most of the time. You do realize no one will blame you for this? You arent the abuser. Even as stay at home moms we cant always protect our children, abusers are sneeky and good at what they do.

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

not in my state romeo juliet laws are set up..

Anyway he has a therapist so you have nothing to criticize...

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

thank you get out You have no right to criticize when I've done nothing wrong.

Amanda - posted on 03/01/2012

"yeah I know they committed a crime either way. But my son claims it was abuse. And that could bring us into more trouble if therapist runs with what he says. But I guess only the truth would work at this point even if it seems more difficult.... "



You are kidding right? You are more worried about how you look to a therapist then the mental sexual and emontional well being of your son?? Its this thinking that keeps incest going even in 2012! I am a victum of incest, and let me tell you IT IS ABUSE. 100%! Why does his contact his abuser? Because hes been groom too! The most important thing to a child being abused is keeping their abuser HAPPY. This is why your younger son is suggesting sexual things to the older one. This does not mean he is consenting!!



I also think you need to speak to a therapist so you can fully empathize with your son before you do even more damage to this poor boy.



"You just get caught up in thinking incest is rape."

Actually unless both people are consenting ADULTS, it is rape. It doesnt matter if they are teens, and in your case it sure dont matter because I can bet my house your younger son has been abused since at least the age of 7, which is prob around the time your older son was being abused by someone else. But since you clearly want to put this all under the carpet keep it a dirty little family secert, you will never know the truth.



You are right about one thing, they do have an illiness, they are clearly sexually abused children actting out. Which can be FIXED, if there is HONESTY, and a family willing to fully support them, (which means NO EXCUSES for their behaviour).



Btw Im a stay at home mom too, and I know very well when you give teens freedom they go out and explore OTHER people, not their siblings!

Teresa - posted on 03/01/2012

Yeah.... not worth it. Enjoy getting other people riled up w/ this 'story'. I've got better things to do w/ my time. Like enjoying my life and my three amazing children. :)

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

you're no help no advice and useless. these posts are just for your self esteem I feel sorry for you... You aren't helping. You're just trying to attack and paint a different picture than what it is actually.

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

I never blamed anyone you're just being mean because you can you're pretty much a cyber bully. You want to believe I don't care to feel better well if it makes you sleep better at night you still wake up with your terrible life.

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

the way you judge makes me weep for your spawn

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

it hasn't neither of them say that plus logically think a 10 year old rarely abuses plus I was pretty overprotective. It wasn't until I let them have a little freedom that they became into drugs or indiscriminate sex. I think it's the people they're around. Also I wanted to say I came here to say it's likely my son has bpd.Which is a personality disorder. Reason for his bizarre actions. I won't really support my older son until he gets into rehab which is probably when he finds a dead end.

Teresa - posted on 03/01/2012

Those links are on age of consent. I am not questioning that. I'm talking about incest which is a whole different ball game.



Nope, not pmsing.... just praying you are a fake because if not.... you absolutely disgust me.

Jen - posted on 03/01/2012

"in the text it actually shows it started last Christmas....



I'm sorry but if he's such a victim I think my older son would be sin he'd only be 10 then. And also no I'm a stay home mom I'd have known it's just when you give teens a little more freedom you wouldn't expect them to use that for sex with a sibling"



I'm sorry for both your boys because you clearly just do not give a damn. If you did, you wouldnt' keep excusing the older one's behavior and blaming the younger entirely. I don't think you really care about his mental issues, I really don't. I think you only care about you and that's probably where all this started.

Jen - posted on 03/01/2012

"I don't know why you all are ignoring what I said. By law they can both consent in my state. It doesn't matter what you think. It's my state laws. And also I read in text he offered to do it. And I also don't get why you continue to ignore the fact that my younger son is in a facility."



I don't get why you are harping on the legality of consent when it's CLEARLY BEEN HAPPENING FOR YEARS WOMAN!



Sure - send your boy to a facility. Out of sight, out of mind right? Then you can continue to pretend it's all sunshine and roses with both boys out. That way you can tell the neighbors that the older is in college far out of state and teh younger is just off at a special school and oh, aren't the roses doing well this season Gladys.



I need to not post anymore because I will probably post in anger.

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

in the text it actually shows it started last Christmas.... And initially he asked to do it.



I'm sorry but if he's such a victim I think my older son would be sin he'd only be 10 then. And also no I'm a stay home mom I'd have known it's just when you give teens a little more freedom you wouldn't expect them to use that for sex with a sibling

Jen - posted on 03/01/2012

"Could you just hear me out "



I did. I posted after I read the entire thread madam. I waited because I wanted to see if you really werep putting the entire sexual abuse thing down to your younger son actually wanting it and oh well maybe it's consensual and I don't need to get involved.



As I said, you and your husband both need serious therapy as a couple and as parents because I'm sorry, these are big big signs that were missed. I'm sorry also but your rather blase' attitude towards molestation leads me to believe that it was easier to write off any signals your son sent you as, "He lies a lot whenever to get attention it seems. He told us stories since he was 7 about stuff as long as he had a story to tell...."



Hm, I'm wiling to bet the abuse started around this age when all his other issues started as well. Was your older son out of the house at that time?

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

are you pmsing because it sounds like it to me...



And most of the time incest isn't even charged like if they get mental help it's more a mental issue. I have no responsibiilty over a 19 year old though.

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

there are provisions in certain states on the coast





http://www.age-of-consent.info/states/Ma...



http://www.age-of-consent.info/states/Ve...



http://www.age-of-consent.info/states/Ne...



btw my sons are are not even 4 years apart....

Teresa - posted on 03/01/2012

WHERE is it legal for siblings to have sex? Please tell me where you are and give me a link to a site stating that it is legal for siblings to have sex in that state. They may be legally able to consent to sex at 15, but WHERE is it legal to consent to sex w/ a SIBLING?!



If your kids do not know that sex w/ a sibling is wrong... either they were horribly abused by someone or you have failed as a mother. Is that why you are being so blase about this? Did YOU abuse them and that's why you want everything to seem 'normal'?



I'm glad he's in a facility now.... though it didn't appear like you had him in one when you started this post. I'm glad you have acted so fast then..... I hope you tell them everything. Actually, I hope this is all a fake.

Amy - posted on 03/01/2012

I don't know why you all are ignoring what I said. By law they can both consent in my state. It doesn't matter what you think. It's my state laws. And also I read in text he offered to do it. And I also don't get why you continue to ignore the fact that my younger son is in a facility.



You guys only judge and don't want accept certain facts. They BOTH can consent at 15. The way you think is not normal you can't catch on or just have bad childhood you want to impose on me. I'm not talking about the sick bastards that ABUSED you. I'm talking about what is consensual incest by law. Both my sons can consent by law. Because it's incest doesn't make it abuse yes they committed a crime but NOT abuse. Incest is NOT always abuse not in my state at least...

Tara - posted on 03/01/2012

My analogy of a girl/boy situation was intended as a girl/boy sibling relationship.

Would it be A OKAY if you found out your 19 year old son was and had been having sexual intercourse with your 14-15 year old daughter, and SHE was cutting herself and SHE was binge eating, SHE was crying etc. etc.

Would that make any difference at all to you?



Your family is so far from normal, and will only get further and further from any semblance of normal if you don't do something, so he is an inpatient? Good, have you told the authorities, the doctors etc. that your son is having sex with his brother on the regular? and that he cuts himself and binge eats etc.? Have you told them EVERYTHING?

Because if you haven't you are still just doing damage control and all to protect YOURSELF!!

How selfish and how ignorant. You need to be the parent here Amy and do something that a Parent would do... contact the right people, go through the right channels and get your CHILDREN the help they NEED. NOW.

Jodi - posted on 03/01/2012

I want to reiterate everything EVERYONE here has said to you and you are apparently ignoring.



If I could also address this:

"Btw if a 15 year old girl was having sex with a 19 year old guy you wouldn't jump to rape."



I absolutely WOULD jump to rape. That is statutory rape, no matter WHO it is. It is ILLEGAL.



You are supposed to be their mother. You have an absolute obligation to address this, even if it means getting the law involved. You have no right to pretend this is okay. You have no right to ignore this and pretend it is all happy families. It is YOUR JOB as their mother to make sure that they are given every opportunity for all the help they need. And yes, you have a responsibility here.



To be perfectly honest, I would prefer to hope that this post IS a fake one, because your apathetic attitude towards the well-being of your children disgusts me that much that I can't even fathom it.

Lydia - posted on 03/01/2012

I believe that he might have been abused by his older brother longer than you think and this might be the cause for many of his behavior issues. It is not uncommon for the abused one to feel guilty or to protect the abuser and if this is a long term abusing relationship I would not be surprised that they talk about using condoms and other details. There probably is a completely wrong idea planted in him about brotherly love and sexuality. Maybe it has become normal to him even though he might feel that something is wrong there. Maybe the younger one doesn't want therapy because that kind of makes him feel that something wrong with him as a person.



It could really be that they are agreeing on this incest relationship, but even then, something somewhere has gone really wrong. It could be that both have been abused by another person or whatever. I don't know how, but if I where you I would try anything to find out what really happened and to get to the bottom of this and than to find the help that both of them need. Maybe get somebody else talking to your younger son or both of them, someone you trust, maybe somebody that they respect and who loves them.

Kay - posted on 02/29/2012

No charges? Is that a good thing if one son is sexually abusing the other? Because I cannot imagine your younger son saying, "Hey, bro, let's have sex." Somewhere along the way something has gone horribly wrong and warped his sexuality. I can't imagine what you are going through, and my heart goes out to your family, but get a grip and quit doing damage control. It won't help the situation, and once something like this happens, you don't really get to go back to normal. It changes everything and everyone it touches.

Sarah - posted on 02/29/2012

What scares me for your younger son is a few things.

1. You (his mother) are so wrapped up in what YOU want (a normal family) that you won't seek the kind of help he needs or even recognize he needs it. Consensual or not is irrelevant. Incest is illegal.

2. He has mental health issues, yet you refuse to acknowledge that having sex with his own brother might contribute to it and make it worse

3. Your older son is into drugs and you excuse away his sexual relationship with his brother on that.

4. You're so disconnected from the problems your family has you have no interest in resolving them



No offense, but you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Your family will never be normal! "Normal" families don't have siblings who have sex! Report it to the police so that your entire family can get the help you all so obviously need. Stop focusing on what is best for you and help your children!

Jaime - posted on 02/29/2012

abuse or not at least one of your sons definitely has a serious mental issue! how old is the older boy? if he is over 18 then no, you can't make him go to counseling, but if he is younger then you are still the parents. as for the younger boy, make him go to counseling! and make sure the counselor is GOOD at it! not some hack who believes every word he says or puts him on some kind of medicine after the first session. find someone with some real credentials, someone who has been successful in the business for years. you may have to send the boy away, but that will get him separated from the situation and from the drama, and may make him open up and be honest.

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

yesa what am I doing wrong if he's an inpatient. You are just talking about something you don't know.



And I just found he cuts. Again ask before you assume you think you know on something you've got no clue on.



Binge eating is eating a lot that's not really noticeably a problem.I knew he was depressed because of puberty I thought and I knew our older son had issues no one is perfect but he said he was clean...

and no neither of them admit they're gay they might just have an illness at least my younger son.



Likely neither are likely to get charges....



Could you just hear me out

Jen - posted on 02/29/2012

Your son binge eats, cuts himself, and cries when he is discovered and you honestly think you had any kind of stable family? I don't understand that attitude at all.



Cutting is a sign of EXTREME emotional pain, it occurs mostly when a person has suffered a major trauma (sexual abuse being the number one cause) and they are trying to gain some measure of control in their life.



I do it, I know.



Severe emotional trauma comes from sexual abuse which you have decided hasn't happened despite the obvious evidence in your own words.



I do not understand your desire to hope it goes away. If you and your husband are not in serious, heavy therapy, you should be. Because you are missing some massive signs of long term problems under your own roof.



Kids do not cut themselves out of boredome or a desire for attention.



And pointing out that some consent laws are lower makes me think that you may actually not be that upset by the possibility of sexual abuse. Perhaps you just fear what others will think of you



Yeah, I'm not being very kind but I'm nauseated after reading this.

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

Yea I guess getting my son into inpatient therapy is nothing... You have no idea what you're talking about. Btw if a 15 year old girl was having sex with a 19 year old guy you wouldn't jump to rape. You just get caught up in thinking incest is rape. When it's not. Actually. tm they're going to assess him. His mental state may have been why he has unstable feelings about it. The facitility know no charges yet...



and I'm not blaming hi just telling you like it is.

Elizabeth - posted on 02/29/2012

Far be it from me to judge..but it's got to make you think ..is it our parenting? I mean if I were in your situation I would probably be feeling that way.



Set up a hidden camera ..I cannot see another way to know for certain..and once you ahve this information...



What if it is something you don't want to know? How will you deal with it?



What do you mean they've been "hooking up"? They are brothers and Gay? and they are having sex?

Tara - posted on 02/29/2012

You really do need to get your kids into therapy and yourself into therapy and you need to take an active role in the healing that your family so desperately needs.



Your son is being abused by his brother, your other son is committing an offense against your son. You are not doing anything to help them both.



They both require intervention, they both require an outlet for their own pain, they both need to have a safe place to talk about their feelings, why they are doing what they are doing. It shouldn't matter whether your son is consenting or doing something against his will, what is going on between them is not normal, it is not healthy and it will only lead to long term damage for all of you.



Please get everyone the help they need right now, today, not tomorrow, not next week, not whenever you can get an appointment, go to your family doctor, tell her/him what is going on, express your fears, and ask for an immediate intervention with a trained therapist. Seek all the help you can get without fear of reprisal or consequences. If you are so afraid that doing this will bring them more harm then you are burying your head in the sand. You are the parents, you are the adults, it is your duty, your job to protect your kids, even from each other. If you do nothing you will have failed them in one of the most damaging ways, you have done nothing, apathy is worse than anything else you could do to them.

And not believing your child, essentially calling him a liar and implying that he has been that way all along, will only alienate him, if he were having these things done to him by the neighbours child, his soccer coach, his teacher, his clergyman etc. etc. would you stand by and lift your hands in the air and say "oh well I guess the therapist can figure this out, I need to disconnect and not worry so much".

This is YOUR SON!!!!

What if it were your daughter and your son, what if "she" was being sexually used by your son? Would it make a difference? If it would then for gods sake pretend he's a she and get about doing something!!!!

Please, as a child I was sexually abused by my former stepfather, I didn't tell out of fear, fear he would stop loving me, fear that I would be sent away, fear that I would go to jail (all things he made me believe). I didn't tell my mom, not because she wouldn't have believed me, but because I had been told I would never see her again if I told anyone.

That kind of fear and control and abuse has life long consequences on one's spirit and soul, it is damaging forever. It never goes away...

Please do something NOW to save your kids from a life of personal torture and pain, a life of self-doubt and sabotage. A life where nothing really matters because you place so little value on yourself. This will all come back to haunt you if you do nothing.. You will regret it till the end of time..

Charlie - posted on 02/29/2012

For the sake of your son I hope he can confide in someone who actually gives a damn and gets him the help he needs.



The blasé attitude I've read throughout this thread says this is either some sick joke or a very , very sad scenario for a child who desperately needs help and can't even find it in his mother.



I cannot believe the amount of blame that's being lumped onto your youngest.



If this is real than you should also seek some kind of help along with your sons.

Isobel - posted on 02/29/2012

I think it sounds like the older son was abused and then he re-enacted the abuse with his younger brother.



It is common for sexually abused children to play along as if they are enjoying it.



I have NEVER once heard of a single person who was not livid with their mother when they figured out that she knew. It is a mother's job to protect her children the best that she can.



No charges will come against the younger brother for incest, it simply will not happen.



I hope that you will tell the therapist and try to work through this as a family to get to a place where you are all healthier and nobody wishes to be back to "normal" because "normal" was a nightmare.

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

of course thanks for hearing me out

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

oh sorry for your problems with your mom but not every situation is like yours. I actually saw him in text say he wanted it so that's a lot different. I would believe him if he didn't say he wanted it and by law that's not csa or any non-consentual crime.That's why I find it hard to believe. They aren't going to see each other for a long time to come and yeah I figured out it's inpatient

Katie - posted on 02/29/2012

So, Amy will you make the necessary phone calls and take those responsible measures today? I REALLY hope you will.

Joy - posted on 02/29/2012

Also, sometimes you can't go back to normal like the way things were before. In cases of abuse and incest, I've never heard of it going back to the way it was. The way it was was only a precurser to the way it is now.

Joy - posted on 02/29/2012

I was abused for many years and what hurt me the most after it was over was that my mother knew and did nothing. So yeah, I do know a little about your situation. I never meant to make you think that I think I'm better than anyone. That couldn't be further from the truth. All I kept seeing was you saying you basically didn't believe it was abuse. Go back and read everything you've written from the begining. Maybe it was poor wording or something but I feel like you've place the importance on the wrong thing. It doesn't matter if it was forced or consentual. It shouldn't be happening at all. As for what else I think you should do? If you're seeking help for your son, as in therapy or in-patient (I would lean towards in-patient), then the other thing you could do is to keep him away from your older son. Zero contact. I know you love your older son but if your younger one is saying it was abuse, that he was forced to do those things, then I would call the police.



Edited to add a sentence in the middle.

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

I'm catching the whiff of a judgemental ranting woman with no more advice...



At katie, I want them to get back to normal like they were before. Therapy can repair the relationships in our family. Also with my son's mental issues hopefully a diagnosis.



I don't want to just at a false premise of what's going on with him I want to get to the bottom of what exactly is wrong.

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

if you want to try to feel better than me idc. It's not like your post is helpful joy. I actually am looking up mental hospitals. you don't get what happens in a situation like this apparently because what more am I supposed to do? If you have advice on what else to do. Thanks but you don't seem to in your last post you just criticize @ joy

Katie - posted on 02/29/2012

Amy, can I ask what would you like the outcome to be ideally? What do you think would be the best way of dealing with this sensitively and responsibly?

Kate CP - posted on 02/29/2012

I dunno...I'm starting to catch a whiff of troll...

Joy - posted on 02/29/2012

Amy, you said, "sometimes I need to disconnect and stop worrying."



No offense lady, but I think your problem here is that you're already TOO disconnected and not worried enough. I really do feel for any mother in your situation. I would gladly be sitting here offering you sympathy and advice if you seemed like you were truly seeking it. I'm actually starting to wonder, after speaking with some of the other girls, if your situation is even real. It seems to me like any other mother in your shoes would be jumping through hoops trying to do something, ANYTHING to change the situation. But because you're just so blase about the whole thing, "Oh I guess I'll let the therapist handle it la la laaaa".....come on. If that's really your attitude about the whole thing, if that's really as far as your concern for your son goes, then you need help just as badly as he does.



Can I please have my flags gift wrapped?

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

legally I don't know if it would be counted as abuse...



no actually they've had a very good upbringing.



yea long run's better just hard to see it from here...

Stifler's - posted on 02/29/2012

Wow he really does need help I'm afraid. Getting anyone in trouble should be the least of your worries right now. You need to find out what's really going on.

Kate CP - posted on 02/29/2012

"...And that could bring us into more trouble if therapist runs with what he says..."



You have one son SEXUALLY ABUSING (committing a CRIME) the other...and you're not sure how to handle this?!



*edited because ranting is not helping*

Teresa - posted on 02/29/2012

Sometimes being a mom is making the hard decision to 'hurt' our kids in order to save them in the long run. Sucks, but would you rather just ignore it and let it continue.... and probably end up losing them both anyway? Or risk losing them to save them?

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

like I said letting the therapist dral with it would be best I guess sometimes I need to disconnect and stop worrying.

Amy - posted on 02/29/2012

I am concerned if I bring them more into trouble.