MMR Vaccine Debate?

Christina - posted on 04/16/2011 ( 153 moms have responded )

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Did your child get it?? how did they handle it??

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Kate CP - posted on 04/18/2011

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Sweet Jesus, you people don't know anything about the immune system. O.o

Your immune system will make antibodies specifically programed to attack a foreign invader with a specific genetic marker like polio, pertussis, or chicken pox. Sometimes your body will stop making those markers EVEN IF you've actually had the disease and not just the vaccine. Your body only makes the antibodies for as long as it deems that particular foreign invader a threat. This is why, for some people, the dTaP vaccine lasts a life time and for others it only last 10 years. The ONLY WAY to tell if you are immune to a specific antigen is by getting a titer test.

You are *supposed* to update your boosters in college and periodically throughout your adult life WHICH WILL PREVENT YOU FROM CATCHING MEASLES AS AN ADULT! FRICKIN' DUH!!!!

And the idea that vaccines aren't tested AT ALL for safety?! REALLY?! They just throw a bunch of crap together and say "Yea, this'll prevent dengue fever!" and start pokin' people with it?! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?! There are MANY different tests and trials that ANY vaccine has to go through before the general public is given it. You should look into the history of the polio vaccine...it's actually rather fascinating AND YOU WOULD LEARN SOMETHING.

OF COURSE the body reacts differently to a vaccine than to a real illness! A real illness MAKES YOU SICK! A vaccine gives you a small dose of a dead virus or bacteria that your body attacks and then makes antibodies against so you don't get sick if you come into contact with the pathogen later!

Do you people even know how a vaccine works?! Have you looked into how the immune system works? How epidemics effect communities? My God...the misinformation in this thread is ponderous...frickin' ponderous.

Kate CP - posted on 04/16/2011

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The "side effects" that you mention to shots are the body's natural immunological response to ANY virus or bacteria in the system. A vaccine is injecting a small dose of a usually dead virus or bacteria into the blood stream. This makes your body react by creating antibodies specifically programed to kill the foreign invaders. When this happens, your temperature goes up, you get achy in your joints, and this can cause irritability. So while it is, technically, a "side effect" of a vaccine to have these symptoms, it is the body's normal response to any foreign invader in the system.

If you have a medical reason to not vaccinate (like you have a familial history of vaccine reactions) then...DON'T VACCINATE! DUH! The reason WHY you SHOULD vaccinate is so those who CAN'T be vaccinated (because of a medical reason like familial history of vaccine reactions) are safe from potentially lethal diseases like pertussis, polio, and tetanus. Anti-vaxxers always assume that because I'm pro-vaccine that I think even those who have a family history of reactions or their own child has had a reaction should vaccinate anyway. NO! Those who CAN be vaccinated SHOULD be vaccinated. Those who can't be vaccinated should be able to rely on herd immunity to keep them safe.

There is NO scientific proof that vaccines are in any way related to autism. In fact, there are studies showing a DECREASE in autism rates among some children who were vaccinated using vaccines with thimerosol. NO ONE knows what causes autism. Period. End of discussion.

Amber - posted on 04/19/2011

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@ Nicole ~ Signs of autism are often not seen until after 12 months of age (This is when social and language skills really start to develop, so differences can be easier to spot). In fact, some children develop normally until 18-24 months and then regress backwards and lose some of their skills.



Also, fever is a side effect of vaccines (1 in 6 patients), but not autism. Mild rashes are a side effect of vaccines (1 in 20 patients), but not autism. I find it odd that you use symptoms that are not indicators of autism to prove the link between vaccinations and autism.



Just because the two things happened at the same time does NOT mean that one caused the other.



If vaccinations caused autism more than 1 in 110 children would have it (yes that's LESS than 1%). And vaccinations rates are much, much, much higher than

Kate CP - posted on 04/19/2011

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"...Actually, most of the diseases that "vaccines eliminated" were very strongly on the wane years before the vaccines were invented and decades before the vaccines were in common usage..."

Wrong again. If these diseases were already dying out before vaccines then WHY are pockets of epidemics of pertussis and measles popping up throughout the US, Canada, UK, and Australia? Oh...BECAUSE THEY ARE HIGHLY COMMUNICABLE DISEASES! These diseases are just as contagious as the common cold and it isn't on the wane, is it?

Like I have said a THOUSAND times, if you have a child who had a reaction to vaccines OR you have a family history of vaccines reactions THEN DON'T VACCINATE YOUR KIDS. BUT if you don't vaccinate because you're a-skeered to because of all the hysteria about it...then I think you need to take a chill pill and visit a few cemeteries with graves going back past 1960 and see how many little headstones with lambs or angels on them you can find. My guess would be a lot of them.

Amber - posted on 04/18/2011

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@ Sally ~ Do you know what herd immunity (community immunity) is?
" A situation in which a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness) to make its spread from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and those with chronic illnesses) are offered some protection because the disease has little opportunity to spread within the community."

Scientists DO know that vaccinations cause herd immunity by the sheer drop in cases since vaccinations began. They do admit that it is more effective in viruses than bacterias because the vaccination rate must be higher to be effective with bacteria and too many people are opting not to vaccinate. (The scientist actually calls those people vaccine slackers.)

Some diseases can actually be eliminated from the planet by using vaccinations; this was proven with small pox. And guess what other diseases it is possible with? Yep, you guessed it, measles is one of them :)

"There are other diseases that are theoretically eradicable, like measles and polio. They have one antigenic type, have no carrier state and, if the entire world could be vaccinated, the disease would cease to exist in the wild."



Now wouldn't that make the world a wonderful place to live...but no, those who have no allergies or family history or problems refuse to get it, so the rest of the world must suffer with measles, even though it can be eliminated entirely. It's a sad world we live in.

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Jane - posted on 06/30/2011

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I had it twice - once when it first came out in the 1960's and then again in the 1990's when they discovered that I was not protected against rubella. I had a sore arm each time but no other problems. My kids both had MMR and they did fine. Unfortunately for them they both got chickenpox one year before that vaccine came out or they would have gotten that, too.

As far as I am concerned, there is no debate. Your kids need to be vaccinated. If we decide that vaccines are no good then we will go back to the days when people had 10 kids so that at least two would survive into adulthood.

Nicky - posted on 06/30/2011

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im not sure about MMR yet, only because I got it at 12, so why can't my daughter get it then, why does she have to get it so young when I didnt (and thats a rhetorical question btw)
Everyone has their right to vaccinate or not. I am probably going to get the pneumococcal vaccine for her soon now that she has turned 1 and is at daycare (waiting for my doctor to call back re some q;s i have about synflorix), but will probably leave it at that.
I had the mumps , and the chicken pox as a kid, my sister had the measles, we shared a room but didn't catch it off each other.... so the MMR vaccine is something my daughter can get at puberty age.
I know a lot of people wont agree with that, thats their opinion, and they have a right to it, its not out of a fear of autism or anything else, although there are some things I dont like about particular vaccine such as aluminium levels (of some, not all) Its that this is my choice, I have researched extensively, and have the right to make an informed decision. I dont have any problems with people who vaccinate their children, so they shouldnt have any problems with me. If I lived in a cpountry where it was a pandemic, then I'd reconsider, but where we live, we'll be fine.

Anthea - posted on 04/22/2011

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My 5 kids all had it with no side effects. 3 of them still did manage to catch chicken pox and all 5 ( and me caught whooping cough! ) I put their quick recovery and few symptoms of both diseses down to the fact that they WERE immunized against it. God only knows how sick they would of been if they hadn't been! Hope I've helped :)

Jane - posted on 04/22/2011

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Exactly right Val. As great as these forums are, I think it adds more to the confusion of what to do. As long as you feel comfortable with the decision you make that is the best you can do.

Val - posted on 04/22/2011

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my boys have had all their jabs, as did all their little friends. Apart from the usual grizzling (well no one likes injections do they) they were absolutely fine! I actually had two friends with children who were autistic. They DIDNT have the jabs, so ???? We just take what life throws at us, there will always be another little scare just around the corner. I threw out all my pram matresses, moses basket, pillows, after an article in the newspaper ,then theres the sleep on the front or back that comes around now and again. At the end of the day we can only do what we think is right, and spend the rest of our lives as mums trusting our instinct! an interesting subject.

Firebird - posted on 04/21/2011

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They also aren't doing their research on Autism either, which is odd considering their kids have some form of it. Many Autistic kids appear to progress normally until 12-18 months and THEN they start to either regress or they just stop making age appropriate progress. That was one of the first things I learned when I suspected my daughter had Autism.

Jodi - posted on 04/21/2011

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That's right Joanna.......it hasn't been in those vaccines for a LONG time. People will believe the propoganda they read unfortunately. Which is why there are a lot of people out there with a lot to answer for given the amount of propoganda that has been around over the years.

Firebird - posted on 04/21/2011

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Jodi, the link you posted says that thimerosal was ordered to be removed from vaccines in Nov.1997. That was over a decade ago. So all of these moms who claim that vaccines gave their kids Autism clearly haven't done their research. They just need something to blame IMO. How can a 5 year old have gotten PDD-NOS from something that hasn't been there for over 10 years?

Mrs. - posted on 04/21/2011

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Mine did great, a bit of redness and swelling at the site and crankiness the next day. Other than that, she was fine. I am in Canada, where the vaccines can be different...still my family in the states with kids...same deal, no big reactions.

I have a friend who has a child with autism...even she doesn't believe that old MMR junk. Autism runs in her family - pure and simple.

It has been disproved and is as valid to the vaccine debate as a loud, wet fart, IMO.

Jodi - posted on 04/21/2011

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Amy, it isn't that thimerisol was removed from vaccines because it was harmful and caused autism. In fact, the FDA changed recommendations of mercury exposure. Because, at the time, there was ALSO a recommendation for infants to receive 3 different vaccines containing thimerisol, and these 3 vaccines would exceed the new FDA guidelines, they removed thimerisol from the vaccines. It was pure coincidence that it occurred around the same time there were outcries about thiomerisol and its possible link with autism.

http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-educ...

Val - posted on 04/21/2011

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my two boys had the mmr, we have lived through so many other scares, remember the matresses with arsenic in them!

Dana - posted on 04/21/2011

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I agree, Loureen.
I also find it very strange that people prefer to make themselves look more and more insane by clinging to falsehoods, than just admitting that they were wrong.

Hm...look like a crazy person, or look like someone who can swallow their pride and admit ignorance on the topic....I think I'd go with the latter.

Charlie - posted on 04/21/2011

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Because paranoid people will find any excuse to cling to just look at this entire thread , no amount of studies would help (even though there are plenty )

Dana - posted on 04/21/2011

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We'll, it's really not necessary, so why would they keep it in the shots?

Amy - posted on 04/21/2011

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so why not just show a slew of studies showing it safe and having no effects either way and mass market THAT to ease everyone's minds? companies make no sense. I think if they just had tons of studies showing it was safe it would be a better move than removing it, thus making some paranoid people think there WAS something to hide, you know?

Dana - posted on 04/21/2011

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Jennifer said it perfectly. It was also removed before they researched it more and found out that the original study was full of shit.

Jenni - posted on 04/21/2011

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To avoid lawsuits and to calm concerned parents fears so they wont boycott immunizations.

Amy - posted on 04/21/2011

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I'm just curious as to if there is no harm from the mercury/thimerosal - why was it taken out? If it was deemed safe, why now remove it?

Dana - posted on 04/21/2011

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Jennifer, It's been removed from the MMR shot in the US too. Thimerosal is only in some flu shots.

Jenni - posted on 04/21/2011

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Shhhh.... Don't tell anyone. But us Canadians don't have "thimerosal" in our MMR vaccine. So it's not even a debate for us. :)

Carrie - posted on 04/21/2011

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All of my children have been imunised (I have 4). A side from a few tears there has never been any side effects. I am a whichever suits you sort of person so long as its an informed decision.

Firebird - posted on 04/20/2011

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I've got one more link.... This is the original article by Wakefield that was published in The Lancet in 1998. 12 children with behavioural disorders were involved in this joke of a "study", 8 of those 12 kids disorders were considered a result of MMR. By their parents! His study did not include even one child without a behavioural disorder. How anyone could be so.... idiotic as to consider this VALID research.... well, it's beyond me. Take note of the bright red word "Retracted"



http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet...

Amber - posted on 04/20/2011

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*Throws hand in air* I'm not starting all over again. I've already posted enough research.

Jane - posted on 04/20/2011

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This is a question where there is no wrong or right answer. You have do your research and use your instinct as a mother to decide what is right for you and your children. Both of my children have had the vaccination and have been fine. Whether it is linked to Austism, who really knows, there is probably not enough evidence out there yet to say either way. It is just one of those things in life, and as parents you need to make an informed decision that you feel comfortable with and go for it.

Bonnie - posted on 04/20/2011

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Aww she deleted her account. Damn. I wanted to know what she thinks helps protect children if they are not vaccinated.

Bonnie - posted on 04/20/2011

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If vaccinations are not going to help protect our children (according to some), what is?

Amber - posted on 04/20/2011

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I never said I had a degree in psychology...but yes. Actually I do have two college degrees :)
I'm just making a joke of it at this point...because it's become absurdly funny :)

[deleted account]

Amber, you fell for it hook, line, and sinker...maybe a little more time reading those books on psychology would have help. I'm always wary of people who flaunt imaginary degrees....you do have a degree don;t you?

Too much time on your hands dear. I will miss your response as I am leaving all this aggression well behind me......where's teh deactivate button....there it is! ;-)

[deleted account]

Good luck to you all. This is a complete waste of time.....you can lead a horse to water........bye

Bonnie - posted on 04/20/2011

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"@Bonnie I think there's an emphasis around 'valid' philosophical reasons. At least I hope there would be."

I hope so too Jennifer otherwise there would probably be a lot more people not having their children vaccinated.

Stifler's - posted on 04/20/2011

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I'm going to go with autism only shows up around the same time they get their MMR shot anyway. That is NOT proof that vaccines cause autism.

Dana - posted on 04/20/2011

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My son got his MMR shots. As with any of his shots, he had no symptoms.

And I'll add something to the "debate". There's a reason why Jenny McCarthy has stopped ranting about autism and MMR...because that whole community was mislead by a fraudulent man. Anyone in their right mind knows it was all bs.

Krista - posted on 04/20/2011

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"But I for one am not willing to sit there and nod in agreement while people use anecdotes to argue against extensive peer-reviewed scientific research."



Exactly. So many mothers say, "My kid got vaccinated and developed autism!" But correlation is not causation. Unless your child lives in a vacuum, where every single other part of their environment and genetic makeup is 100% known and controlled, you CANNOT isolate those vaccines as the cause of your kid's autism.



And in the meantime, all that you (and people like you) are doing is scaring other mothers out of vaccinating their children.



And this is what's happening as a result: "Before publication of Wakefield's findings, the inoculation rate for MMR in the UK was 92%; after publication, the rate dropped to below 80%. In 1998, there were 56 measles cases in the UK; by 2008, there were 1348 cases, with 2 confirmed deaths."



So, because of this crap study, the rate of MMR inoculation has dropped 12%. And yet, cases of measles have risen 2400%!!!



So to anybody who "philosophically" opposes vaccination, and who says that it is a personal decision that does not affect other people, I call "bullshit".



How many more "philosophical" objectors will it take before we have a full-blown measles epidemic?



Not too damn many.



And all of this started with one fraudulent study. Shameful.

[deleted account]

Nicole I am going to have to disagree with you on the ignorance part. Most of the gals on here really have their shit together. I am fully on board with all of those who vaccinate their children because I am a firm believer in the vaccines' purpose and have done my research,as did they, to know what good has come from them. With that said I am sorry you are taking everyone's disagreements as ignorance and feel you are the one being igrorant by not listening to the flip side of things. Sometimes you are just going to have to agree to disagree. I myself have had encounters where I whole heartedly disagreed with what the others have posted but I state my case and move on.

Thank you ladies for posting the truth about vaccines on here. I am sure a lot of moms have found your advice helpful and informative.

Kate CP - posted on 04/20/2011

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Nicole: You don't want to be convinced so you WON'T be convinced that anything other than the vaccines caused your son's autism. You want some one or something to blame...and I get that. It's not fair what happened to you or your son. But since we don't know a definitive cause of autism you can't say that vaccines caused your son's autism.

The rise in the rates of autism can be attributed to a few things like environmental factors such as chemical exposure during pregnancy and early childhood, genetic factors, and a broadening of the spectrum of autism symptoms. Vaccines have been around longer than autism and we have only improved their ingredients list over the years. So, logically speaking, since we have removed "toxins" from vaccines we should see a DECREASE in autism diagnoses...and yet they still steadily climb every year.

Vaccines don't cause autism...but then again, who knows what does?

Jenni - posted on 04/20/2011

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@Bonnie I think there's an emphasis around 'valid' philosophical reasons. At least I hope there would be.

Johnny - posted on 04/20/2011

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Holding out the idea that because intensive therapy and specialized diets and such help to move kids up the spectrum towards "normal" does not prove in any way that autism is not a genetic issue. I'm not sure how those two things get put together.



Just to use another anecdotal story, which is what we seem to be basing our arguments on here, the 6 year old across the street was diagnosed with mid-range autism when he was 3. He has never been vaccinated. He began a very intensive program right away and it has made an enormous difference. His verbal skills have developed so much and his comprehension of the world around him and ability to communicate have turned around completely. However, through the process of the diagnosis and therapy, his dad began to wonder if he too didn't fall on the spectrum. He was starting to recognize himself in a lot of the issues that were happening. He decided to see if he was right and went for diagnosis (at age 42). He was told that he has mild to severe Aspbergers. He is a high school vice principal and math teacher, but has always had a difficult time relating to others, dealing with disorder, and other issues. He is fully convinced that the autism spectrum is a genetic issue.



That does not mean that environmental causes and our current Western lifestyle does not have any effect on prevalence. If people want to ignore the scientific data that says it isn't vaccines, that's their business. But I for one am not willing to sit there and nod in agreement while people use anecdotes to argue against extensive peer-reviewed scientific research. This is reactive, but it is not about being inflammatory. It is a frustration that people seem to cling to irrational explanations for no obvious reason. Which is especially frustrating when those explanations may lead to real harm.



If you are interested in a very detailed analysis of the vaccine-autism issue, check out Denialism by Michael Specter.

Bonnie - posted on 04/20/2011

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"@Jennifer Well my son was not allowed entry or registration to the school until proof of vaccination was provided. so maybe its not like that where you are, but around my parts, this is it."

I believe it is like this where I am and if you don't have your child vaccinated then there better be a reason in relation to allergies or religious purposes.

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