my response to the petrified mommy

Danielle - posted on 04/22/2013 ( 21 moms have responded )

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i am not trying to say not to fear your children around any and every dog. but pitbulls have such a bad reputation. they say one of the most vicious dogs is a chiwawa so thehy could be just s dangerous as a pit. i understand where your fear comes from cause u have probably heard about there lock jaw and vicious attacks and so on and so forth. i have 3 pitbulls girls one 10 yrs, 3 yrs and 11 months that i have saved from shelters and abusive owners. and my 3 girls are the most loving well acting animals around children and ihave a 4 yr old little girl wo pulls on there ears and tails and chases them around rides on there backs. truly is how the pitbull is raised and or what type of living situation they are in.. especially since they are getting it as a puppy and u said they have 5 children themselves chances are you are not going to have to worry about them being vicious or your children being in danger.. at the end of the day any dog can be dangerous.. so yes keep an eye on the way the dog acts around there children andwhat not but dont stress yourself completly pitbulls are one of my favorite breeds.. and are totally miunderstood

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Jodi - posted on 04/25/2013

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Ok, I don't know HOW this conversation was just reopened and posted to, and then relocked, but THIS POST IS NOW LOCKED AND IT WILL STAY THAT WAY. See my post below explaining why.

I would ask all posters now respect this request.

Thank you
Jodi
WtCoM Moderator.

Mary - posted on 04/25/2013

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No, what I will concede is that a year or so ago, I too was guilty of misusing the term pit bull. When I refer to my own dog, I will say that he is a pit bull type dog. All that means is that he looks a certain way, and would be lumped in with a bunch of other dogs that share some of his physical characteristics. By many different judges, and especially in areas that have BSL or BDL, he would be called considered a "pit bull". In this post, I never said that he was anything other than a (good) dog. I have said that many others- including my vet, the shelter I adopted him from, and the boarding kennel I use, have all LABELED him as a "pit bull". That doesn't mean that is what is truly is - it's just what he looks like he could be. Since no one was there for his conception (or that of his parents) and I have not had him DNA tested, the bottom line is that no one really fucking knows. It doesn't change the reality that all of society calls him a pit bull.

I challenged you because because you were feeding into the frenzy. I asked you to clarify when you stated that you have seen damage that pit bulls can do - what did you mean? Was the dog(s) in question an APBT? Was it an AM staff? Was is dog adopted from a shelter that was called a "Pit mix" and so that was what the owner put down on the dog's registration at the vet? How did you KNOW what the fuck the dog in question was? An an animal care professional, how could be so ignorant and irresponsible? You, more than most, SHOULD know better.

What I have learned since adopting Sam 6 years ago is that these seemingly casual remarks about dogs that look a little like him, combined with all of the media sensationalism and hype, is that they are more harmful than anyone realizes. I have learned that a dog is just a dog - and that whatever their breed, or mix, is really irrelevant. I have learned that only a fool will judge a dog based on their appearance - or place expectations on their behavior, temperament, or personality because that is how a certain breed is supposed to be. I have learned that the label pit bull is rather misleading, and that definition and description changes depending upon who you ask. *I* didn't say that Boxers, Boston Terriers, or Dogo Argentinos actually were pit bulls - I just stated that these are other breeds that often can and are lumped into this category of dogs - particularly when one is talking about dogs affected by BSL and visual breed identification.


Not that it matters, but I've never claimed to have two pit bulls. I have ALWAYS called Charlie a ridgeback mix (he's my profile pic on here). Perhaps your memory is a bit faulty.

Jodi - posted on 04/25/2013

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I actually locked it, along with another one that was started separately as a reply to the same post. Given the original post has been locked, I assume it was for a reason and should stay that way.

Jodi
WtCoM Moderator

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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BAHAHAHAHAHA....okay Mary whatever you say. Just like saying you have a pit bull, when clearly it isn't....no one has any idea what you are talking about. Keep arguing yourself in a circle about this. Quite frankly, I don't care and know the truth of the matter and have proven it nicely. And once again, you should be going after the op for using the term in the first place...but then again you own a pitbull right? BAHAHAHAHA!

And I love how you are now saying "pit bull type dogs" clearly you have finally read your own links, and now understand that "pitbull" and its various ways to spell it are not talking about the other bully breeds such as the mastiffs and boxers to name just a couple.

And once again another personal attack trying to minimize my training and experience simply to attempt to feel better about your misuse of a word/label. "I confess, I mistakenly was holding you to a higher standard than I would the average public. Knowing that you were vet tech, I expected you to be more knowledgeable about these issues, and more responsible about casually throwing around vague and confusing labels or misinformation. Perhaps I overestimated the education and level of knowledge about canine that your profession requires." Actually I think you are arguing with me BECAUSE I am a vet tech and are attempting to challenge me. So be it. And no I am not the one confusing or throwing around labels, you are the one saying that "pitbulls" include boxers love. Not so much. I think you need to seriously re-read all of your links, and talk with the vet at your shelter. Either you have been gravely misinformed, or you are trying to say anything could be a pitbull since it looks like one....broadening the term trying to convince yourself that you still have 2 pitbulls when they are not. It is constantly one of your claims to fame.

Mary - posted on 04/25/2013

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Nope - the precise terms you used were "pit" and "pitbull" . This is NOT a breed, no matter how many quotes you want to pull up. American Pit Bull Terrier is a breed. Amercian Staffordshire Terrier is a breed. Bull Terrier is a breed. Pit bull is a label, and depending on the speaker, can refer to one of these breeds, all of these breeds, mixes of these breeds, and a variety of other breeds that I have not referred to in this post.

All you have said, quoted, and referenced support my assertion - using terms such as pit, pittie, pit bull, and pit bull mix are vague and indefinable. No one knows precisely what you are referring to when you call a dog a pit bull, because that LABEL means so many different things to so many different audiences.

And sadly, I have seen more than my fair share of the victims of a dog attack. Just last week, I was at the shelter when a dog (whom was labeled as an Australian Cattle dog mix) escaped from it's run when a staff person was returning another dog (visually labeled as an Am Staff mix). The cattle dog tore into the Am Staff, who, by her nature, is a sweet, submissive girl without an ounce of fight in her body. She was severely injured - lost most of an ear, and needed two surgeries (thus far) to repair the damage. Two staff were bitten/injured as well, and the cattle dog didn't have a scratch on him. Because this was his third serious and unprovoked offense, he was euthanized. It's the first time they've had to put down a dog for behavior issues in a long time (and funnily enough, at least 80% of the 60 dogs in this no-kill shelter are labeled as pit bull type dogs.)

Dog attacks and bites are serious, scary business. However, the research and scientific studies done on this issue all show that breed is irrelevant. It is not an even remotely accurate predictor of a dog's temperament, behavior, or predisposition to aggression. Peer -reviewed, CREDIBLE studies of dog bites in this country have shown that in the majority of cases, the attacking dog's breed wasn't even reliably determined (meaning IF a breed was listed, it was merely someone's opinion of what the dog looked like it MIGHT be - and I already addressed the unreliability and inaccuracy of visual identification in my first post).

I confess, I mistakenly was holding you to a higher standard than I would the average public. Knowing that you were vet tech, I expected you to be more knowledgeable about these issues, and more responsible about casually throwing around vague and confusing labels or misinformation. Perhaps I overestimated the education and level of knowledge about canine that your profession requires.

As well, the current court ruling in MD does not affect me personally, or my dog. However, that does not mean I don't care deeply for the many, many dogs and owners that are affected by this. It does not mean that my heart does not break for the hundreds of families who have been forced to surrender there beloved, well-behaved, innocent pets or face eviction from their homes. It does not mean that I am not simply sick over the number of good dogs that languish in shelters, are considered unadoptable, or are euthanized every fucking day in this country for no reason other than what they look like.

I haven't DNA tested my other dog because it really doesn't matter what his DNA says he is. I already know. He's a good dog - one that is well-trained, well-behaved, and very much loved by all who know him.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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Soo....since you are not actually addressing your question since I have proven my point, what exactly got your hackles up in the first place about my original post? The fact that I am using the term "pitbull, pittbull, pit bull, pitt bull" correctly, or the fact that I said I would not own one with small children?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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I cannot copy and paste this, it won't let me but this is on one of the links you provided under "find the pit" it is called pit bull facts before you take the find the pit bull quiz...once again this is a link YOU provided....so I will have to re write it verbatim since it cannot be copied for whatever reason:

Pit Bull facts: did you know?

"Pit Bull is not a breed, it is a term used to describe three different breeds with similar characteristics:

- American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT)
- American Staffordshire Terrier (AMSTAFF)
- Staffordshire Bull Terrier (STAFFY)"

And this is what I said earlier

"Oh thank you ever so much for trying to educate me Mary. Pitbulls are generally a "nick name" for APBT. Some people use it for AST, because they are so closely related, but all the others not so much. Some people just don't know dog breeds. I have NEVER heard of ANYONE referring to Cane Corsos, Dogo's, Bull mastiffs, or boxers ever as a general name for them, unless they have absolutely no clue about dogs. If you actually read her post, you would see she is saying pitbulls, so that is the specific breed I am referring to (her words ""but pitbulls have such a bad reputation". If you get them all confused, that is your mistake. What I think more specifically, you may be confusing the term "pitbull" across the board... the term "bully breeds" is what you are actually looking for. "

I missed staffy's. But once again this is from YOUR link, so yes you did prove me right even when you were trying to prove me wrong. All the other breeds you are insisting fit into the "pitbull label" including these 3 are also known as bully breeds. Like I keep saying.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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"The most narrow and perhaps most accurate definition of the term “pit bull” refers to just two breeds: the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and the American Staffordshire Terrier (AmStaff). Some people include the Bull Terrier, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Bulldog in this group because these breeds share similar head shapes and body types. However, they are distinct from the APBT and the AmStaff."

Read the first line carefully, then read the rest.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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*sigh* it is right in the the name. AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS, so I am well withing right to call them pitbulls. And I have seen it spelled pitt bull, pit bull, pittbull, pitbull. Seems no one can even agree on how to spell it. And I often use all the spellings. Pull up all the other debates we have had about them if you wish.

If you have such an issue with the term "pitbull, pit bull, pitt bull, pittbull" then address the person who used it in the OP, and make sure THEY are the ones using it properly.

And much like you, I have seen the damage that dog fighting can do first hand, or what owners can do. AND I have seen what they can do to people. BUT, see I was ADDRESSING the op's points of chihuahua's being potentially more dangerous, which I know will be hard for you to admit is quite blasphemous.

To add to that, in both states that I have been a vet tech, you can change the type of dog breed you want on the file. If the shelter you adopt from states pit mix, you can take the mix say lab and call it a lab mix. If you have had the DNA test like you say you have had, that right there is proof. At least for ONE of your pets. But since you do indeed own your own home, I guess it is not something you need to worry about huh? And like I said, I worked and lived in an area with a ban on the breed. So yeah, I know how difficult it is. Thanks though.

"I will not back down, nor will I apologize, when some ignorant ass who thinks they are an expert says something like "I have seen first hand the damage pitts can do to humans and animals."

Oh and I do believe that was a personal attack, and never said I was an expert...but thanks for once again putting words into my mouth and calling me an "ignorant ass". It is so helpful. Perhaps you have not seen it in action. Perhaps you have not seen a dog attacked by a pitbull, or a dog attack in action at all. Maybe you have not seen what fighting dogs can do to one another. Or what they can do to humans, so me saying have seen it first hand is well....validated. Hell, did I tell you i worked with a girl that had her finger bit off by an Akita? Would you like to hear all the stories about all the breeds I have seen bite, bitten, and killed by dog attacks? No? See once again I was responding to the OP. The OP's discussion about pitbulls. But in your eyes, my experiences don't count. Only yours do. I forgot.

Edited to add- and yes you did prove my point. Twice in fact.

Mary - posted on 04/25/2013

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Took your name out - sorry.

I just can't come up with any way in which I proved your point. You talked about "pitts" and "pitbulls". I responded that pit bulls are not a breed, but are rather a label. I provided links that supported this assertion. You than quote one of my links which affirms what I originally said - that a pit bull is NOT one breed of dogs, but is a label that refers to several breeds of dogs and their mixes.

So what was your point? At the end of all of this, a "pit bull" still isn't a breed of dog, and it does not just refer to APBT's. Any stereotypes or generalizations made about pit bulls is going to be erroneous, since it is not a breed, but a label.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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First of all, I cannot even get past the first line. Can you please take my name off the post? Thank you.

Mary - posted on 04/25/2013

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little miss, in no way did *I* "prove your point". The OP just says "pitbulls". You yourself use the term "pitts" and "pitbull" (which, btw, is NOT one word). MY point was that the use of "pit bull" is not a clear or accurate way to convey anything. If, in your post, you meant to refer only to APBT's, than for the sake of clarity, you had best SAY APBT's.

When you wrote, "...but a chihuahua is not as dangerous as a pit. Do some have attitudes? Sure. But a chihuahua's bite verses a pit bull..." or "I have seen first hand the damage pitts can do to humans and animals" did you mean a purebred APBT (whose breed was truly known), or were you referring to all of those pit bull type dogs (who are most likely mutts or mixed breeds?). It really isn't clear to the reader, even if it is in your head.

I'm coming from a place of animal advocacy. I live in MD, where our stupid fucking appellate courts, in April of 2012, handed down a ruling that labeled all "pit bulls and mixes" as inherently dangerous, and made some outrageous decisions about third party liability. I volunteer at my local Humane Society once a week as dog walker and socializer, and have taken more than a few classes related to dog training and behavior. I've been actively involved with both the Maryland Chapter of the Humane Society, Animal Farm Foundation, and the advocacy group B-more Dog in working with the state legislators to develop and pass breed-neutral dog bite legislation. I have researched and read ad nauseum about pit bull type dogs - and the vast disagreement about what, exactly, they are.

I would love nothing more than to be able to just say my own dog is a mutt. However, society won't really let me do that. The petpoint software system, that pretty much all shelters in this country use, requires the shelter to chose a predominant breed or breed mixes in order to enter the animal in the system. Most vets still place some type of breed label on a dog's chart - even if you say (as I did) that the dog is mutt of unknown origins. I did that with Sam; when I first took him in, I said I had no way of knowing what he was (other than a medium sized male dog). His vaccination records all list him as a "pit bull". The same with boarding kennels and groomers. I have to provide his vaccination records to utilize these services, so even if I say he is a mixed breed of unknown origins, they still end up listing him as a "pit bull". I am fortunate enough to own my own home and have homeowners insurance through a company that does not engage in any type of breed-specific discrimination. However, breed identity is now a HUGE issue in my state with both landlords and insurance groups, and being accurate and honest by saying your dog is mutt is not acceptable. My dog could not live in most apartment complexes, nor would a lot of insurance policies cover him. Based on nothing other than his looks, he would be called a "pit bull".

I really wouldn't give a shit what people called my dog, or any other dog...but I live in the real world, where the term pit bull is used to refer to all kinds of short-haired, blocked-headed dogs. It encompasses a wide variety of purebreds and mutts, and is based on nothing more than visual identification. It is a catch-all phrase that is used to discriminate against dogs and their owners - most of whom are well-behaved, evenly tempered animals with responsible owners just like me. I will not back down, nor will I apologize, when some ignorant ass who thinks they are an expert says something like "I have seen first hand the damage pitts can do to humans and animals. "

I've seen firsthand the damage that humans can do to animals, yet I'm not making any sweeping generalizations or implications about humanity, or even a small subset of it.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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This is from your other link:

"A pit bull is not one breed of dog. It includes American Pit Bull Terriers (APBT), American Staffordshire Terriers (AST), Staffordshire Bull Terriers and all mixes that include one of these breeds."

And once again, if a pitbull is mixed with say a lab, it would be called a pitbull lab mix, or a lab pit mix, or a pitbull mix, or even just a lab mix.

Thanks for helping me prove my point further by contributing those 2 links.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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Well then stop referring to your own dog as a pitbull if you don't know what it is. And as you put it, I respectfully disagree. We can continue to pull up links that prove our points all we want. I would simply call your dog a mix. And I have worked with 50+ vets in my time, dealt with breeders, rescue organizations, aspca, mspca, and if the breed is not a abpt or a staffy, it is not referred to as a pit. If it has pit in the mix, they call it a pit mix. I have also worked in an area where pitbulls were banned. Once again, you are referring to bully breeds. Hell, this is from your own link:

"What Is a Pit Bull?

There’s a great deal of confusion associated with the label “pit bull.” This isn’t surprising because the term doesn’t describe a single breed of dog. Depending on whom you ask, it can refer to just a couple of breeds or to as many as five—and all mixes of these breeds. The most narrow and perhaps most accurate definition of the term “pit bull” refers to just two breeds: the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and the American Staffordshire Terrier (AmStaff). Some people include the Bull Terrier, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Bulldog in this group because these breeds share similar head shapes and body types. However, they are distinct from the APBT and the AmStaff."

Point proven.



So once again, it is people who don't know dog breeds. Those breeds are NOT recognized in the professional animal world as pitbulls. It is not widely recognized as proper. Once again, bully breeds is what you are referring to.

Mary - posted on 04/25/2013

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I respectfully disagree. The term "pit bull" is used by shelters, vets, animal welfare advocates, and <<>>even those who are in favor of BSL to refer to pretty much any dog with a blocky head, short haired coat, and muscular stature.

http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/virtual-pe...

http://www.pbrc.net/poppysplace/Educatio...

And even Wikipedia says this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

Perhaps YOU mean APBT when you say "pit bull" - but the vast majority of society includes all of these dogs that share similar physical traits. For the sake of clarity, if you are only referring to purebred APBT's, I'd recommend stating it as such.

My own dog is labeled a pit bull. He has a blocky head, short haired brindle coat, and a big barrel chest. Truth is, I have no idea what he really is. He could easily be a boxer/greyhound mix (his back end is skinny and oddly tapered like a greyhound). He was 5 when I adopted him, and had been a transfer from another shelter. There is no known history of his parentage, so he was called a "pit bull" based on nothing more than visual identification - the same as every shelter dog I work with. Anyone who sees him would also call him a pit bull. All I know for sure is that he is a damned good dog - and a mutt.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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So now that I have clarified that for you, what is your specific question for me?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/25/2013

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Oh thank you ever so much for trying to educate me Mary. Pitbulls are generally a "nick name" for APBT. Some people use it for AST, because they are so closely related, but all the others not so much. Some people just don't know dog breeds. I have NEVER heard of ANYONE referring to Cane Corsos, Dogo's, Bull mastiffs, or boxers ever as a general name for them, unless they have absolutely no clue about dogs. If you actually read her post, you would see she is saying pitbulls, so that is the specific breed I am referring to (her words ""but pitbulls have such a bad reputation". If you get them all confused, that is your mistake. What I think more specifically, you may be confusing the term "pitbull" across the board... the term "bully breeds" is what you are actually looking for. http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanpitb...
"These dogs are truly capable of many tasks. The difference between Pits and American Staffordshire Terriers is a difficult one. Even breeders can't agree. The main difference is the bloodline. Amstaffs are show dogs and dog fighters won't use dogs with Amstaff blood. As time progresses there will be more of a difference. Many are dual registered as Amstaffs with the AKC and Pits with the UKC."

Mary - posted on 04/25/2013

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Little Miss - you do realize that "pit bull" is not actually a breed, right? The term "pit bull" is really a catch-all, slang phrase that is used to refer to almost any dog that has a blocky-head, short haired-coat, and stocky body. It often includes the APBT, Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Bulldog, and any mixes thereof. Cane Corsos, Dogo Argentinos, Bullmastifs, and Boxers are often lumped into this category as well.

Not to mention, the vast majority of the time, the label of "pit bull" is often given based on nothing more than visual identification. In other words, someone is just looking at the dog, and GUESSING the breed (or mix) based on nothing more than what the dog looks like. DNA testing has proven that for even the most experienced vet, dog trainer, shelter working, this guess, is usually inaccurate. The National Canine Research Council has actually done a study on the inaccuracy or visual breed identification: http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil...

Also, the NCR, and AVMA both estimate that only around 50% of American Dogs are actually purebreds - the other half are some type of mix.

So when you say that you "like the breed myself, but would think twice about owning one with small children"...I have to ask exactly what you mean. Do you mean ALL short-haired, block-headed dogs that someone thinks looks like a pit bull type dog, or are you only referring to a pure-bred APBT, a pure-bred Am Staff, or a pure-bred Bull terrier, or any other of the breeds that get lumped into the pit bull category?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/24/2013

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ANd now for my response.

"they say one of the most vicious dogs is a chiwawa so thehy could be just s dangerous as a pit. "

Well, I don't quite know who "they" are that "say" this, but a chihuahua is not as dangerous as a pit. Do some have attitudes? Sure. But a chihuahua's bite verses a pit bull or any other large breed dog CANNOT do the same kind of damage. Can they hurt and send you to the doctor? Sure.

I have seen first hand the damage pitts can do to humans and animals. I have NEVER seen a chihuahua rip skin off of a persons arm and attack in pack like manner. Nope.

You are right though, any breed CAN be dangerous. Though I have to add, with proper training and socializing, just about any breed can be great. I have my own opinion of the most dangerous breed, and I guarantee you it is not a chihuahua. Not even close.

And they can be your favorite breed. it does not mean it will be others. There is plenty of ground for anyone to be nervous around dogs. Especially those that have a reputation for killing people. I like the breed myself, but I would think twice about owning one with small children. Cause YES they can cause irreversible damage....many dogs can.

"ihave a 4 yr old little girl wo pulls on there ears and tails and chases them around rides on there backs"

This is not a good thing. Not only is your child provoking a dog, but can hurt him/her. Ears and tails are sensitive. What if your dog has a sensitive ear from an infection that you don't know is there (happens ALL the time) and your daughter tugs on its ear the wrong way? What if your dog snaps? I am sure you are convinced your dog won't. Also, any child riding on a dogs back? I don't care about the size of the dog or child, it is dangerous. It can hurt the dogs back, or your child could fall off and get hurt. Frankly I would be more concerned about the dog. That is not ok. Your dog is not a horse.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/24/2013

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Not sure if you locked this or another mod, but I am opening it to comments. It is in poor taste to respond to someone and not let them reply. If a mod locked this, go ahead and re-lock.

~WtCoM MoD LiTtLe MiSs~

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