No crying it out

~Jennifer - posted on 10/26/2009

Quoting Christina:

Breastfeeding past a year and Attached Parenting Circles??? What does this mean? I don't get it?

Christina,

   There are smaller communities on Circle Of Moms- you can browse through them here:

http://apps.facebook.com/circleofmoms/gr...

Ladies, 

Thank you all for your responses to this thread.

Sharon - posted on 10/26/2009

those are various message forums you can sign up for and be a member of.

Christina - posted on 10/26/2009

Breastfeeding past a year and Attached Parenting Circles??? What does this mean? I don't get it?

Marcy - posted on 10/26/2009

Quoting Christina:

He's 16 months so he eats everything now, and he drinks from a sippy cup no problem, the only problem is when he get's tired and that is when he wants the boob and he wants it now! My issue is I don't have the heart to let him cry, I physically and emotionally just plain cannot do it it, it breaks my heart, your advise is so good and so true but how do I get past my feeling so so soooooooo terrible? and is it really nessesary to put him in his own room right off the bat? I feel like going from sleeping with me in my bed everynight with breastfeeding, straight to sleeping alone in a new room without his comfort, is super mean..?

Hi Christina-

You should check out the Breastfeeding past a year and also the Attached Parenting Circles (if you aren't already on them).  There are lots of moms on that circle that nurse their kiddos to sleep (myself included and my little guy is 3 years old).  I have found these sites to be extremely helpful and supportive of my parenting style. 

Maria - posted on 10/26/2009

Quoting Sharon:

Bekki that is an out and out lie!

HERE are your causes of metabolic alkalosis...

Causes
Chloride-responsive type
Gastric fluid loss (eg, vomiting, NG drainage)
Volume contraction (eg, secondary to loop or thiazide diuretics)
Congenital chloride diarrhea
Posthypercapnia syndrome (especially in mechanically ventilated patients with chronic lung disease)
Cystic fibrosis (in toddlers)

Chloride-resistant type
Primary aldosteronism
Bartter syndrome (renal sodium, potassium, and chloride wasting; often presents as failure to thrive)
DOC excess syndrome (congenital adrenal hyperplasia variant)
Liddle syndrome (autosomal dominant; unregulated sodium resorption in renal collecting duct)
Excessive ingestion of licorice
Chronic potassium depletion (eg, anorexia nervosa)
Primary reninism
Hyperglucocorticoidism
Milk-alkali syndrome (excess calcium plus bicarbonate intake and vomiting)

NONE of those are "crying" dear god if that were the result of crying every depressed person in the world would be dragged off for blood gas testing.

thank you!

Jaclyn - posted on 10/26/2009

Quoting Maria:

Quoting Christina:

He's 16 months so he eats everything now, and he drinks from a sippy cup no problem, the only problem is when he get's tired and that is when he wants the boob and he wants it now! My issue is I don't have the heart to let him cry, I physically and emotionally just plain cannot do it it, it breaks my heart, your advise is so good and so true but how do I get past my feeling so so soooooooo terrible? and is it really nessesary to put him in his own room right off the bat? I feel like going from sleeping with me in my bed everynight with breastfeeding, straight to sleeping alone in a new room without his comfort, is super mean..?

your not being mean by letting him go to his own room. He's over a year old and needs his own space to grow as and indvidual. You need your time to regenerate too, you can't do that. Right now your giving him ALL of yourself and that is wearing on you and him.  He can feel your weariness. Yoy both need your space, that is why I suggested finding a support group around your area to help you. YOur going to need alot of emotinal support to get though this and to help work through the your guilt,. It is completely natural to feel this way, but again you have to let go. I would also talk to his pediatrician and see what he reccommends as well. Try  the routine I suggested or adjust it to fit your needs. Your a mom, but your also a woman, you need your time. he will adjust.  I help you as much as I can. ((HUGS))

I would like to put my 2cents worth in.

Yes I agree with Maria - Mostly

After a few days I'm sure your 16month old would be used to it and would probably be fine, but having a 16 1/2 month old myself and having used both AP and CIO methods with him, I would suggest doing this all in steps.

Maybe only wean at night. I still breastfeed in the morning, he has a super feed at about 0530 in my bed, then goes back to sleep with me and wakes at about 0700 and gets a bottle which he drinks very little of, then breakfast at 0800. He's just weaned off the night (just before bed) feed as he has a large dinner. But he always goes to bed awake.

He used to wake every 2-3 hours on a good night, every hour on a bad night - with CIO (a mild version and a day meals and sleep routine), and after a few hiccups (being sick etc) he now sleeps most of the night.

If it were me in your situation... I was going to say set up a portable cot in your room, but then I thought about my baby crying and remembered that it is SOOOO much worse listening to them cry in the same room as you. It seems so much worse. You need a baby monitor that you can turn down, but make sure you can hear them clearly, and when they go quiet, turn it up so that you can hear them breath and move.

So I would do it arse about - (around the other way), get your bubs into their own room first. Once they are comfortable and used to their room, then drop the feeds at night. I did it all in one hit. From every 2 hours to nothing!!! That was sooooo hard. But he only cried for up to 10-20minutes each time. You must realise that once they can roll over or/and stand, it's so much harder. But remember "THEY WILL LAY THEMSELVES DOWN" I was always dubious and worried, but it rang true.

I had the trouble that mine could stand but literally COULDN'T get back down. I had to keep going in and laying him down - that was so much harder.

I'm glad to hear that you are open to new things. Even if you still didn't agree with the method, that you could appreciate how others feel that this is an option and a good one for other families.

I did comment in an unhappy fashion with your first comment, but now realise that you, perhaps just didn't understand it at the time.

Contact me anytime for support or advice if you would like it.

Jaclyn - posted on 10/26/2009

Quoting Bekki:

The danger in "crying it out" is their health. It is a health risk. When a baby is crying they are exchanging gasses, C02 and oxygen to be exact. As they cry they take more breaths in and less out which stockpiles CO2 in their lungs and their blood system which causes metabolic alkalosis. Very nasty thing for a child to have to deal with and it is a situation where you will have to take your child to the hospital and get arterial blood gasses tested..

Hi Bekkii,

I'm not sure if you've read all the posts, but we've discussed the definition of CIO in great length and established that "Crying it out" as a definition is not letting your infant scream and cry breathlessly. It is allowing your infant to cry and whinge until they fall asleep with a baby monitor or/and checking on your child and not leaving them too long.

Just to give you an example of when you have no choice but to let your child cry... Bath/Shower time. Just because they cry through the event, doesn't mean you just... "don't bath them" - It's kind of 'non negotiable', same as putting on sunscreen or cleaning teeth. Any activity that 'has to be done' to upkeep the health and wellbeing of your child.

If crying was a larger health risk than these routines, I'm sure it would be more widely known or/and spoken about by experts in books and presented on the TV instead of perhaps a study or two or magazine showing this health risk.

I don't dispute that this could, potentially, be a health risk, but I actually have never heard of any child dying of this, that doesn't mean that they haven't.

Your child is also at risk of being in a car accident - doesn't mean I'm not going to drive them to little athletics or to Grandma's house. You must weigh up the risks, and decide what is best for your family.

Jaclyn - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Alexi:

I must say...my opinion is varied on this one. When my daughter cries and i have no reason NOT to go to her ,then i do. but if i am washing up or otherwise engaged, i have no choice but to let her cry.
At night, since the day she was born, i have put her to sleep wide awake and in her cot and she generally settles very very well with no or little crying. She is a very contended baby and is very easy to settle. She has never had a dummy but does use me for comfort ( i breastfeed).
I must point out that i also have 3 sons, all of whom were treated the same and are very well balanced and confident children. They are 13, 5 and 3 years old.

Bottom line is this....we all raise our children the way we see fit. Just like every child is different, so is every parent

Good luck to all and here is hoping we all raise healthy happy children.

Completely unrlated topic... How did you like the age gap between your children?

I have a 3 1/2 year old and a 17month old. I was hoping the smallish gap would keep them happy and playful together, perhaps make them close with each other.

The age gap between my sister and I are 6 1/2 years and I always hated it. I was always lonely. I was pretty much an only child for 6 years and I hated it and swore that I would never do it to my children if I could help it, just because of my own experience.

That doesn't mean that everyone has the same experiences, so just curious how you like the age gap and how your kids like the age gaps. And how they get along...

Jaclyn - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Jodi:

Quoting Christine:

Thanks for all the feedback tonight. He's asleep now. We'll  see how the night proceeds. I only hope no one calls the police if he screams to loudly....uuuggghhh. I sincerely dread this. Christine

 

 

Good luck Christine.  Hang in there. I know its tough.  I'll be online on and off (I'm in Australia, its only midday here), so if you want to PM me for some support, go for it :)

Same here, Same here!!!

Australia and here for support - I say Go Girl.

Oh, what helped me was writing a diary entry through out the whole experience.

I would write the time and what he was doing, I would write a new time if he started crying differently, or if there was a break.

I know it seems like you would be concentrating on the bad too much, but BELIEVE ME - it helps. The time doesn't seem as long and you can go back and realise that 'in fact, he did have some breaks and was going to sleep, but jerked awake realising that he was falling asleep again' or that 'he is winding down and that you can stick it out' I also wrote all my feelings

To quote myself,

"Am I doing the right thing!! I just don't know. I hate this feeling and I hate hearing him upset, but whatelse can I do? I just can't keep getting up every hour through the night. I feel sick to my stomach, but I can't give up. If I go in there now, I've lost the battle and he will learn that if he cries for longer, or constantly, that I will go in to him. I've been told that once they realise that you're not coming, then they don't play on it anymore and they WILL sleep on their own for full nights sleep. I've also been told that the third night is the worst... It's when they try it on again just to 'make sure' it wasn't a phase"

Now there are a lot of those, mentioning feelings, and just writing anything that's going through your head. It will help - Trust me...

Jaclyn - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Christine:

Quoting Jodi:

Quoting Christine:

Quoting Cathralynn:

Quoting Christine:

I need some advice related to this topic. My three year old son will not sleep in his bed alone at my house. I thought I had the solution two months ago by having a full-size bed in his room, as that would allow for him to already be laying down during story time and singing, rather than before when he was read to and rocked in a chair and put in his crib. The crib program was becoming extremely unsuccessful. I would be required to lay on the floor for up to 2 hours with my hand through the crib on his body. He is very sensitive, quite demanding, and has incredible willpower. My husband and I have been divorced and sharing time since last December. He sleeps alone at his father's house and at other locations...just not here. It could be due to the fact that I may be coddling him too much. It is very difficult for me to hear him cry, let alone scream and he is quite aware of that. I am sensitive to his needs, even more since the divorce. I want to ensure we have quality time and that he is content. However, it is getting too difficult as I am no longer able to get any sleep. Sleeping with him is like sleeping with a wild raccoon. However, if I do not sleep in his bed, he is waking up ranging from every hour - every 2 1/2 hours crying for me to hold him and sing to him. I am really ready to let him cry it out in hopes that after 3 days or so he will get the picture. However, I know he will scream loudly for hours. He has done it before and he knows it works. I'm thinking it's time to let my neighbors know what they might be hearing from the house and let him scream. Has anyone else encountered this and what did you do?

My daughter is only 17mo so I don't know your situation.  But I know you don't want him to scream.  Is three years old enough to reason with?  Can you offer some sort of reward program?  Explain to him bout how he needs to be a big boy and sleep on his own in his own bed.  You can still relax him but limit it.  Stay for awhile and read books, sing, whatever you feel is reasonable and whatever time you feel is right, but pick something your willing to stick with.  So say you read 2 books, sing a song, and lay with him for a half hour.  Then he's on his own.  But tell him up front what you expect and what you will do.  Then offer him like a sticker or something if he stays in bed and doesn't cry.  Let him be involved maybe get new sheets and a new friend to sleep with, sounds expensive but maybe if you make it a big deal and he's excited?  Then say he gets a weeks worth of stickers or whatever he gets something special.  A dinner where he picks, a day trip somewhere fun whatever is most awesome to him.  He's not a baby anymore. But if he's got a legitimate problem, like he's scared of soemthing, address it.  See if he can tell you why he doesn't want to sleep alone?  Maybe my expectations are too big tho.  I still have a baby!

Thanks for the suggestions Cathralynn. Unfortunately, as bright as my son is at 3, reasoning isn't really an option; at least not yet. He has a great grasp of language, attends pre-school, and is quickly developing the ability to grasp concepts more and more each week. Unfortunately, the reward/punishment thing really hasn't kicked in yet. He gets both reward and punishment and doesn't really care either way at least not past the first 10 minutes he is experiencing either. And, he uses every excuse in the book to get out of his bed, even for naps. Now that he is potty trained, he will say he has to go pee just to get out of the bed, which of course I'm not going to ignore. As far as talking it through and explaining it to him...he says he understands but immediately regresses and still wants what he wants and is willing to go the extra dramatic mile to get it. He is just insistent and says that the reason he won't sleep in there is because "mommy isn't there". He'll keep telling me over and over all night  "I want you to hold me. I want you to sing to me" and it doesn't stop. It's that basic. That's what is making this so difficult! I know that there are stronger tactics being used at his father's and other locations such as smacking and such, but I will never resolve a conflict with smacking or spanking. So, perhaps all my efforts are falling flat because of that too.

 

I'll probably be unpopular on this thread for saying this, but here's my suggestion based on my experience:  At 3 years old the only "hope" he is going to give up on by you letting him cry it out is the "hope" that he is going to get his own way.  No, you should not smack.  Take him out to the shops and let him choose a nightlight that he likes (my daughter got one that was a tropical fishtank and loved it), have a strict bedtime routine, grit your teeth, and bear with it.  It is the only way he will get the message.  Once he does it once, make sure you reward him the next day for staying in his bed, but you will need to go through some pain.  3 year olds can be pretty strong-willed.

 

Hi Jodi, he picked out a fish nightlight too. We have a good bedtime routine which he enjoys, so that's no problem. We read a story, I sing approximately 6 - 8 songs until he is sleeping. I stay for a bit and then I sneak out. I have to say that yes, you probably will be unpopular for your suggestion, but honestly, after what has been going on for the last 9 months, I'm ready to try the letting him cry it out. I had a hard time initially with that concept. He didn't sleep through the night until he was 18 months old because I couldn't listen to him cry. We talk about the reward that he'll get if he does and he promises  he will do it , but never can see it through. He also knows it is making mommy unhappy, but that doesn't matter either. If he gets through tonight, he knows he's going to get a Buzz costume. Costumes are his fave and he has a lot of them. The whole love of costumes, singing, and acting out scenes makes me think he is quite the actor and perhaps this is a lot of what I am seeing...a darn good actor.

 

The first time is always the hardest. He hasn't seen the rewards yet. Once he gets his prize in the morning, he will be able to relate the two things. Sleep on his own and get a surprise. Honestly, I think you should start with smaller surprises until he goes to bed without crying. Then the next morning, get him a really, big, significant surprise - maybe go to a play cafe and take him shopping afterwards, of course explaining why he's got a good day out and how proud of him you are and what a great job he's done.

Jaclyn - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Alison:

Quoting Christina:

Personally, and very strongly, I think that letting your baby "cry it out" is disgusting and there is nothing anyone can try and say to debate me on that. When your baby is crying, they're crying for a reason, as a mother it's YOUR job to figure out why.

What if he's crying in your arms for hours night after night because he's overtired?  What if his exciting day makes him tend to stay up until he's past cranky?  What then, if his poor cranky overtired body can't stay asleep?  How do we break a cycle of exhaustion for a person we can't explain our actions to?  Nobody who bothers to join a discussion group called "circle of moms" is trying to traumatize their children.  Take your high horse out back and shoot it.

I'm so glad someone said that!!! I was so angry at the tone...

That's like saying mum's who breastfeed in public are disgusting, or people who hold hands in public are disgusting...

Who are YOU to make such a blanket statement like that on a site where "MOST" mums are just here to hear each others opinions and share their experiences. We are not here to tell other mum's that their parenting is disgusting to us...

AND to that mum who said it is a mum's JOB to run to their baby every time it crys to comfort (I don't remember the exact wording)...

I didn't see that written in the job description - NO!!! Our job as a mum is to nurture and love our children, to ensure a safe environment and have our kids grow up happy and healthy, ready for the trials and tribulations of the life and the world as best we can!!! To prepare them for the good in the world and to deal with the bad and to teach them love and  compassion, understanding and tolerance of others, to appreciate and respect others and their opinions - unlike some people on this stream!!!

Shoot that damn horse twice I say!!!

Samantha - posted on 10/25/2009

I totally agree Jo!

I won't write a big long post but I just wanted to clarify a few things...

When babies are very young they don't understand object permanence, so when you leave the room your baby doesn't know IF you will be back or that you are in the next room, so when the baby cries and nobody comes the baby thinks it is all alone so its brain goes into a kind of standby mode to preserve energy and also the baby stops crying so not to alert a predator, yes the baby does in a way give up.

Also the baby learns that its only form of communication means nothing, which is a very sad lesson and not good for its self esteem.

Babies brains are being wired and new pathways developed, so frequent stressful situations can create a baby hardwired for stress rather than happy baby.

Note: this mainly applies to young babies

Also here in Australia baby nurses (cafs) are not allowed to suggest controlled crying.

Yes your baby might go to sleep but at what price?

Jaclyn - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Christine:

Quoting Cathralynn:

Quoting Christine:

I need some advice related to this topic. My three year old son will not sleep in his bed alone at my house. I thought I had the solution two months ago by having a full-size bed in his room, as that would allow for him to already be laying down during story time and singing, rather than before when he was read to and rocked in a chair and put in his crib. The crib program was becoming extremely unsuccessful. I would be required to lay on the floor for up to 2 hours with my hand through the crib on his body. He is very sensitive, quite demanding, and has incredible willpower. My husband and I have been divorced and sharing time since last December. He sleeps alone at his father's house and at other locations...just not here. It could be due to the fact that I may be coddling him too much. It is very difficult for me to hear him cry, let alone scream and he is quite aware of that. I am sensitive to his needs, even more since the divorce. I want to ensure we have quality time and that he is content. However, it is getting too difficult as I am no longer able to get any sleep. Sleeping with him is like sleeping with a wild raccoon. However, if I do not sleep in his bed, he is waking up ranging from every hour - every 2 1/2 hours crying for me to hold him and sing to him. I am really ready to let him cry it out in hopes that after 3 days or so he will get the picture. However, I know he will scream loudly for hours. He has done it before and he knows it works. I'm thinking it's time to let my neighbors know what they might be hearing from the house and let him scream. Has anyone else encountered this and what did you do?

My daughter is only 17mo so I don't know your situation.  But I know you don't want him to scream.  Is three years old enough to reason with?  Can you offer some sort of reward program?  Explain to him bout how he needs to be a big boy and sleep on his own in his own bed.  You can still relax him but limit it.  Stay for awhile and read books, sing, whatever you feel is reasonable and whatever time you feel is right, but pick something your willing to stick with.  So say you read 2 books, sing a song, and lay with him for a half hour.  Then he's on his own.  But tell him up front what you expect and what you will do.  Then offer him like a sticker or something if he stays in bed and doesn't cry.  Let him be involved maybe get new sheets and a new friend to sleep with, sounds expensive but maybe if you make it a big deal and he's excited?  Then say he gets a weeks worth of stickers or whatever he gets something special.  A dinner where he picks, a day trip somewhere fun whatever is most awesome to him.  He's not a baby anymore. But if he's got a legitimate problem, like he's scared of soemthing, address it.  See if he can tell you why he doesn't want to sleep alone?  Maybe my expectations are too big tho.  I still have a baby!

Thanks for the suggestions Cathralynn. Unfortunately, as bright as my son is at 3, reasoning isn't really an option; at least not yet. He has a great grasp of language, attends pre-school, and is quickly developing the ability to grasp concepts more and more each week. Unfortunately, the reward/punishment thing really hasn't kicked in yet. He gets both reward and punishment and doesn't really care either way at least not past the first 10 minutes he is experiencing either. And, he uses every excuse in the book to get out of his bed, even for naps. Now that he is potty trained, he will say he has to go pee just to get out of the bed, which of course I'm not going to ignore. As far as talking it through and explaining it to him...he says he understands but immediately regresses and still wants what he wants and is willing to go the extra dramatic mile to get it. He is just insistent and says that the reason he won't sleep in there is because "mommy isn't there". He'll keep telling me over and over all night  "I want you to hold me. I want you to sing to me" and it doesn't stop. It's that basic. That's what is making this so difficult! I know that there are stronger tactics being used at his father's and other locations such as smacking and such, but I will never resolve a conflict with smacking or spanking. So, perhaps all my efforts are falling flat because of that too.

Hmm, that's a tough one - NEVER think that you are doing the wrong thing or feel discouraged. I sense that some of your method is used due to guilt for your son.

At first I just thought it was an attention thing, but thinking about it, maybe he just feels yucky inside and needs a little extra coddling - however, I don't know... How do you think he'll cope in the future if he is coddled all his life and not given or helped with the ability to figure things out on his own and find his own coping mechanism? I'm not saying that's how he will grow up, I'm asking seriously as "How do YOU think he will develop" one way or the other. You know your son better than anyone, and probably better than those who smack and such.

He may be playing you because he CAN and knows you'll do it, or as I've heard Dr Phil (lame I know) say so many times, perhaps he feels guilt that it's partly his fault that you are no longer together and maybe that's stuck in the back of his head. Maybe he knows it upsets you and feels guilty for you feeling that way and wants you two to be together instead of apart - both lonely and feeling yucky.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's just how I would be thinking things through.

I can't say - seek professional advice - because doesn't matter how many professionals you see, they will all tell you something different.

Maybe you can try putting him in your room in a seperate bed and telling him that if he relaxes for a while, mummy will come to bed soon. Maybe come in to bed after a couple of minutes, then each night make it later and later, but always go in. In the end perhaps he'll be asleep on his own, then maybe you can start  putting him to his own bed.

Just a thought. Maybe that's what I would try.

I don't think I would feel right leaving him on his own to cry. I feel that he would be crying with an empty feeling in his tummy, and that would break my heart. As much as I use a mild form of CIO for my 17month old when I have to, I still am not sure that I would do it for a 3 yo anyway, but a 3 yo with some possible emotional problems - Mmmmmm - I dunno.

Hope I could help, at least give you some things to mull over.

I'd like to know what you do in the end and how it worked out. I'm genuinley interested in your situation.

You can email me anytime at amethstbeautyinc@gmail.com

Leilani - posted on 10/25/2009

Thank you for posting this! Babies do not manipulate, we learn to do that as adults...

Jaclyn - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Cathralynn:

Quoting Christine:

I need some advice related to this topic. My three year old son will not sleep in his bed alone at my house. I thought I had the solution two months ago by having a full-size bed in his room, as that would allow for him to already be laying down during story time and singing, rather than before when he was read to and rocked in a chair and put in his crib. The crib program was becoming extremely unsuccessful. I would be required to lay on the floor for up to 2 hours with my hand through the crib on his body. He is very sensitive, quite demanding, and has incredible willpower. My husband and I have been divorced and sharing time since last December. He sleeps alone at his father's house and at other locations...just not here. It could be due to the fact that I may be coddling him too much. It is very difficult for me to hear him cry, let alone scream and he is quite aware of that. I am sensitive to his needs, even more since the divorce. I want to ensure we have quality time and that he is content. However, it is getting too difficult as I am no longer able to get any sleep. Sleeping with him is like sleeping with a wild raccoon. However, if I do not sleep in his bed, he is waking up ranging from every hour - every 2 1/2 hours crying for me to hold him and sing to him. I am really ready to let him cry it out in hopes that after 3 days or so he will get the picture. However, I know he will scream loudly for hours. He has done it before and he knows it works. I'm thinking it's time to let my neighbors know what they might be hearing from the house and let him scream. Has anyone else encountered this and what did you do?

My daughter is only 17mo so I don't know your situation.  But I know you don't want him to scream.  Is three years old enough to reason with?  Can you offer some sort of reward program?  Explain to him bout how he needs to be a big boy and sleep on his own in his own bed.  You can still relax him but limit it.  Stay for awhile and read books, sing, whatever you feel is reasonable and whatever time you feel is right, but pick something your willing to stick with.  So say you read 2 books, sing a song, and lay with him for a half hour.  Then he's on his own.  But tell him up front what you expect and what you will do.  Then offer him like a sticker or something if he stays in bed and doesn't cry.  Let him be involved maybe get new sheets and a new friend to sleep with, sounds expensive but maybe if you make it a big deal and he's excited?  Then say he gets a weeks worth of stickers or whatever he gets something special.  A dinner where he picks, a day trip somewhere fun whatever is most awesome to him.  He's not a baby anymore. But if he's got a legitimate problem, like he's scared of soemthing, address it.  See if he can tell you why he doesn't want to sleep alone?  Maybe my expectations are too big tho.  I still have a baby!

That response sounds extremely well thought out and is what I would do. I have a 3 1/2 year old and a 17month old.

I must be honest, my 3 1/2 year old slept through from 5 weeks. He wanted to (not needed to be) held until he went to sleep, then put in his cot and would sleep all night. There have been times when he didn't want to go to bed when he was older. But there's once - you accommodate them, then there's twice - you accommodate them, then there's the third time and you talk to them about it and tell them that they really need to get some sleep, but if you're weak like me, you stay until they are happy and probably asleep. But then before you know it, your good sleeper has developed a habit.

Afrter a coule of nights of developing this habit, we did chat to our son and made sure he had kisses and cuddles and whatever toy he wanted, we tried light on, door open, lamp on, torch. In the end none of it mattered, we let him whinge (not scream) for up to 10minutes. He was asleep before we knew it.

Another time, he developed the habit of having daddy lay down with him, but with a clingy, very needy baby with me in the other room, daddy was the sole dinner maker / dishes washer / tidier for the kitchen. So without my husband, we got no dinner and with breastfeeding etc, meals and drinks are extremely important.

This is one of the reasons we (in the end) tried a mild method of CIO for our youngest, but began it at 13 months old and it was the best thing we ever did.

Dr's have told me, books have informed me and TV programs have advised the public that a baby's and childs brain development happens while they sleep. If children aren't getting enough sleep, or a good, deep sleep, they are not developing to their full potential. I have heard from these sources that suckling all or most of the night and majorly disturbed sleeping effects this development. I know from personal experience that lack of sleep effects children's daily concentration, moods, energy and behaivour. And I certainly know from experience that lack of sleep effects mum's concentration, moods, energy and behaviour. It also can make driving dangerous and I've had the odd accident in the kitchen and slips in the bathroom. During exhaustion, I've been terrified of dropping baby or slipping with the kids in my arms. I've felt weak while constantly carrying / rocking and swaying baby to sleep, feeling giddy and light headed. My hubby's not always home to pick up the slack when I need it. Depression also gives you VIVID dreams consisting of family members being hurt or injured in accidents that worry you during the day and it wakes you with a fright.

Some people just feel that in order to be the best mum that they can, they need to adapt their own method or CIO method for health and happiness of everyone.

I know it's harder with older toddlers if you can't reason with them. My cousin had the problem that if he wasn't attended to for the 74th time, he would vomit on cue so that he would get attention. He would have to be changed.

I'm just glad that I'm getting my 17month old sorted early, I don't want to end up with a 3 yo that can't sleep on their own. I'm not saying that it WOULD happen, but I worry that it will, so I'll do all I can to prevent poor sleep through the night and give them the best chance at development and family life that I think I possibly can.

Sharon - posted on 10/25/2009

Bekki that is an out and out lie!



HERE are your causes of metabolic alkalosis...



Causes

Chloride-responsive type

Gastric fluid loss (eg, vomiting, NG drainage)

Volume contraction (eg, secondary to loop or thiazide diuretics)

Congenital chloride diarrhea

Posthypercapnia syndrome (especially in mechanically ventilated patients with chronic lung disease)

Cystic fibrosis (in toddlers)



Chloride-resistant type

Primary aldosteronism

Bartter syndrome (renal sodium, potassium, and chloride wasting; often presents as failure to thrive)

DOC excess syndrome (congenital adrenal hyperplasia variant)

Liddle syndrome (autosomal dominant; unregulated sodium resorption in renal collecting duct)

Excessive ingestion of licorice

Chronic potassium depletion (eg, anorexia nervosa)

Primary reninism

Hyperglucocorticoidism

Milk-alkali syndrome (excess calcium plus bicarbonate intake and vomiting)



NONE of those are "crying" dear god if that were the result of crying every depressed person in the world would be dragged off for blood gas testing.

Bekki - posted on 10/25/2009

The danger in "crying it out" is their health. It is a health risk. When a baby is crying they are exchanging gasses, C02 and oxygen to be exact. As they cry they take more breaths in and less out which stockpiles CO2 in their lungs and their blood system which causes metabolic alkalosis. Very nasty thing for a child to have to deal with and it is a situation where you will have to take your child to the hospital and get arterial blood gasses tested..

Andrea - posted on 10/25/2009

Christina it sounds like he wants your boob for comfort. To be clear on the plan, you want to take that away from him and send him to sleep into his room.

I would stop the nursing to sleep first. I would not wean and put him into his room as one swell swoop. That is too much change all at once. It is hard enough to stop nursing to sleep. If you believed that extended nursing was best for him, there must have bee a reason you knew why you continued, extended breastfeeding gives him the immune support that he can use especially during this flu season, I don't see why he couldn't continue that during the day, or when he is tired or upset. Not including the nights if you already night weaned, but including the nursing to sleep. IMO he can still nurse at bedtime but you need to take him off the breast before he zonks out on you. Bedtime nursing was the last feeding I cut out because it was the hardest.

Nursing is more than just feeding at this point and you already know that you said he wants to nurse when he is tired. If you can talk to him I would ask if he would take the milk from a cup, because it is faster. That is how I put it to my boys and it worked somewhat.

sometimes the sippy cup was good enough, then I knew they really just wanted to drink. When it wasn't good enough I knew it was comfort and needed. My twins self weaned at 18 months and at 28 months and they don't nurse anymore but sometimes they still put their heads on my chest when they are tired or need a hug and I totally can see regression, they turn more baby like but also more relaxed when they can do that. They either remember what the breasts are for, it is more than just a 24/7 restaurant, or they hear my heart beat and both are equally relaxing I think.

Once you managed to stop nursing to sleep I would move to the next step to sleep in his own bed. Into a separate room? I am not sure he can handle such a big change so soon. But you can try and see if it works for you, just know that if it doesn't and crying ensues (both your baby's and yours;0)) maybe you should have a plan B.

Maria - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Christina:

I have to say Maria, I have never recieved such kind and helpful advise before and I thank you for it. :)

your very welcome. :)

Christina - posted on 10/25/2009

I have to say Maria, I have never recieved such kind and helpful advise before and I thank you for it. :)

Maria - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Laura:

Thank you for for posting this and confirming what my "mother's instinct" has already told me!

I'm glad I could help. My son is currently 6yrs old and I am learning new things everday. We are all here to support one another.  mothers's instinct is never wrong. :)

Maria - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Christina:

He's 16 months so he eats everything now, and he drinks from a sippy cup no problem, the only problem is when he get's tired and that is when he wants the boob and he wants it now! My issue is I don't have the heart to let him cry, I physically and emotionally just plain cannot do it it, it breaks my heart, your advise is so good and so true but how do I get past my feeling so so soooooooo terrible? and is it really nessesary to put him in his own room right off the bat? I feel like going from sleeping with me in my bed everynight with breastfeeding, straight to sleeping alone in a new room without his comfort, is super mean..?

your not being mean by letting him go to his own room. He's over a year old and needs his own space to grow as and indvidual. You need your time to regenerate too, you can't do that. Right now your giving him ALL of yourself and that is wearing on you and him.  He can feel your weariness. Yoy both need your space, that is why I suggested finding a support group around your area to help you. YOur going to need alot of emotinal support to get though this and to help work through the your guilt,. It is completely natural to feel this way, but again you have to let go. I would also talk to his pediatrician and see what he reccommends as well. Try  the routine I suggested or adjust it to fit your needs. Your a mom, but your also a woman, you need your time. he will adjust.  I help you as much as I can. ((HUGS))

Laura - posted on 10/25/2009

Thank you for for posting this and confirming what my "mother's instinct" has already told me!

Christina - posted on 10/25/2009

He's 16 months so he eats everything now, and he drinks from a sippy cup no problem, the only problem is when he get's tired and that is when he wants the boob and he wants it now! My issue is I don't have the heart to let him cry, I physically and emotionally just plain cannot do it it, it breaks my heart, your advise is so good and so true but how do I get past my feeling so so soooooooo terrible? and is it really nessesary to put him in his own room right off the bat? I feel like going from sleeping with me in my bed everynight with breastfeeding, straight to sleeping alone in a new room without his comfort, is super mean..?

Maria - posted on 10/25/2009

I can give you my opinion, however, how you choose to use it is up to you. I would reccomend weaning him off the breast and try to get him used to sippy cup, (if he is already on one than keep giving him one) also I'd reccommend him having his own room with the crib. It will be hard, however you both will get sleep, he needs to be independant from you and you from him, it's ok to let go, he will be ok without the being fed through the night. Is he on solid food yet? He and you have to learn new sleeping patterns.





1. try to wean him off the breast.

2. Move him to his own room.

3. Find a support group where you live.

4. be consisten, it will get better.

5.start a new bedtime routine, bath, a song or read to him, if he has a stuffed animal or something you feel safe with him snuggling with, that might help.



it is going to be hard, the key is being consistent. I Hope this helps you.



good luck.

Christina - posted on 10/25/2009

Quoting Maria:

I understand your point of view, however it is also a proven fact that children who learn to soothe themselves are more confident and can sleep better through the night, isn't that what you would want. You and your child both need sleep, I very much enjoyed rocking my son to sleep, however once he cried it out, he has slept better since then. You know your babies cry and what each one means. I'm not insulted in the least, just giving my point of view. and you carry your child for 9 months, you bond with that child for life. I Love my son more than anything and am glad that I did teach him to soothe himself, he is independent and still needs me. nothing can ever change that bond,

I like the way you put that, you have definately opened my eyes and I am a very open minded person, I just can't stand the thought of a little baby crying all alone in a dark room scared to death, so I would never do that to a little baby. However my son is now 16 months old now, hes even starting to talk and stuff, he understands almost everything I say and I am still nursing him and I am still nursing him to sleep and he wakes frequently in the night to feed and if I don't give it to him he crys and crys. I am sorta lost, I feel like I am stuck? and I have his crib in our bedroom at the foot of the bed and I have put him in it at night at bed time and I tell him " this is jamies bed, go night night" but he just screams and after like not even 5 mins I start crying myself, I just can't stand it, it makes me feel like im torturing him.. very sad :(  "You and your child both need sleep"  is a very good point and neither of us are getting enough I don't really know what to do, any suggestions?......please??

Maria - posted on 10/25/2009

I understand your point of view, however it is also a proven fact that children who learn to soothe themselves are more confident and can sleep better through the night, isn't that what you would want. You and your child both need sleep, I very much enjoyed rocking my son to sleep, however once he cried it out, he has slept better since then. You know your babies cry and what each one means. I'm not insulted in the least, just giving my point of view. and you carry your child for 9 months, you bond with that child for life. I Love my son more than anything and am glad that I did teach him to soothe himself, he is independent and still needs me. nothing can ever change that bond,

Christina - posted on 10/24/2009

Quoting Alison:

Quoting Christina:

Quoting Alison:

Quoting Christina:

Personally, and very strongly, I think that letting your baby "cry it out" is disgusting and there is nothing anyone can try and say to debate me on that. When your baby is crying, they're crying for a reason, as a mother it's YOUR job to figure out why.

What if he's crying in your arms for hours night after night because he's overtired?  What if his exciting day makes him tend to stay up until he's past cranky?  What then, if his poor cranky overtired body can't stay asleep?  How do we break a cycle of exhaustion for a person we can't explain our actions to?  Nobody who bothers to join a discussion group called "circle of moms" is trying to traumatize their children.  Take your high horse out back and shoot it.

Take my high horse out back and shoot it? Excuse me but if your baby is crying in your arms and you don't know why, or can't do anything about it then obviously your not trying very hard to comfort them. Letting a baby cry in a crib, by themselves,  is A LOT different than them crying in your arms, so I don't even know why you thaught that would be relevant. I agree that no one here is trying to traumatize their babies but it's possible to do accidentally and I believe that the "CIO" method is a form of neglect and I am 100% entitled to that opinion. As for "breaking a cycle of exhaustion", as a mother I think you should keep track of their sleeping and maybe if your child is overly tired as it sounds then maybe strive to sqeeze in a few more naps during the day.

I've faced that situation and handled it though negative feelings"obviously your not trying very hard to comfort them"  hounded me.  
I have been keeping track of my baby's sleeping patterns since he was born, thank you very much, which is why I knew he must have been very tired.  I "thaught"  it would be relevant because putting my baby down crying for limited amounts of carefully observed time is what got him to finally go to sleep, nap time included.  As opposed to: walk and sing baby calm, drowsy, to sleep; wait; try to put down baby, sit down with baby, lay down with baby; he wakes up screaming; start over.  He cried LESS overall, because he was not up and cranky at all hours of the night.  It was a logical solution I would have come to sooner if I hadn't been so terrified that putting him down meant I was damaging him: " they've given up hope."  My baby is happier and healthier (sleep is vital to an infant's development)  and so am I, which means more cuddles and less chance of a sleep-deprivation caused car accident.  I'm sorry "there is nothing anyone can try and say to debate me on that" because you're going to run into somebody someday who could probably use more support than derision. 

You know what Alison, we obviously have different opinions on this subject, and I am very passionate about mine so I think we need to agree to disagree.

Melissa - posted on 10/24/2009

I also agree with this, but only with young babies, my daughter is 9 months old and my partner and i have just started the controlled comforting method with her, it only took 2 days of mild crying herself to sleep and she now happily goes off to sleep by herself whenever we put her in her cot. I must admit if she had of reacted differently by screaming or crying for longer periods of time, i wouldn't have been able to do it.

Alexi - posted on 10/24/2009

I must say...my opinion is varied on this one. When my daughter cries and i have no reason NOT to go to her ,then i do. but if i am washing up or otherwise engaged, i have no choice but to let her cry.

At night, since the day she was born, i have put her to sleep wide awake and in her cot and she generally settles very very well with no or little crying. She is a very contended baby and is very easy to settle. She has never had a dummy but does use me for comfort ( i breastfeed).

I must point out that i also have 3 sons, all of whom were treated the same and are very well balanced and confident children. They are 13, 5 and 3 years old.



Bottom line is this....we all raise our children the way we see fit. Just like every child is different, so is every parent



Good luck to all and here is hoping we all raise healthy happy children.

Christine - posted on 10/24/2009

I liked your Post. I agree that you can spoil your baby. But Whichever side of the debate you fall on, I believe balance is the key. All one way or all another isn't life. Its about finding the thing that works for your unique child. So precious they are.

Alison - posted on 10/24/2009

Quoting Andrea:

Quoting Alison:

Quoting Christina:

Personally, and very strongly, I think that letting your baby "cry it out" is disgusting and there is nothing anyone can try and say to debate me on that. When your baby is crying, they're crying for a reason, as a mother it's YOUR job to figure out why.

What if he's crying in your arms for hours night after night because he's overtired?  What if his exciting day makes him tend to stay up until he's past cranky?  What then, if his poor cranky overtired body can't stay asleep?  How do we break a cycle of exhaustion for a person we can't explain our actions to?  Nobody who bothers to join a discussion group called "circle of moms" is trying to traumatize their children.  Take your high horse out back and shoot it.

Try a nap the next day to prevent being overtired and stick with it. Or try an earlier bedtime, don't wait until the baby is exhausted. the sleep cues got lost somewhere during the day and the result is a kid who can't sleep from exhaustion.

In order to implement naps, because he'd been so resistant to sleep, I had to go through some put him down and let him cry.  I didn't do so easily, but he had to get over his initial annoyance of being stuck in the crib.  We kept him up in the bed, VERY light sleeper.  The SleepEasy Solution (Waldburger and Spivack) really helped me get him into a good sleep schedule.  He takes 2 naps now, and goes to bed at the same time every night, after a long and loving bedtime routine.  He's much happier during his awake hours now.  Having a predictable routine really helps.  Poor baby wasn't letting himself rest if he could help it.

Leanne - posted on 10/24/2009

Quoting Joy:

Quoting Kia:

My son is 9 months old and we have recently tried the cry it out method and it has given us our sanity back and our son is just as happy as he ever was and our relationship with him has not suffered.

You obviously feel strongly opposed to the cry it out method but it was the best thing we have ever done since our son was born and I think people like you are the reason the rest of us feel guilty so easily and are so hard on ourselves as parents.

Next time you decide to start a topic - choose one where you are not upsetting so many people.

I never once, in any of my posts put down other people and I even said that I don't want to put down anyone's parenting style and that I am trying to help and encourage new mothers who want to go the AP way.  You are making me sound like a jerk who just came on here saying that if anyone goes with a different method than me, then they are stupid.  I said many times in this conversation what my intentions are.  I am not here to put anyone down.  However, lots of mothers have been putting me down for my method.  One even said that all of us parents who believe in AP "have our kids shoved up our a**".  I never criticized anyone with any of my posts, but lots of people have been criticizing me and other mothers, so maybe you should be lecturing them.  I stated very clearly that what I am against is people who just leave their children completely alone in their rooms with the light out and door shut, and don't go to check on them or reassure them or anything.  The types of people who only touch their child when they are moving them from the crib to the swing to the playpen.  I have sadly met people who do this.  THIS is what I think is wrong and neglectful.  It seems to me like a lot of people do not completely understand attachment parenting, and are also misunderstanding my meaning of crying it out.  I understand that there are different methods to use and every baby is different, so you have to adjust to each one.  So do not say things like "people like you are the reason the rest of us feel guilty".  My whole point of these posts was to be encouraging to mothers who believe in attachment parenting, but I guess circle of mothers is not the right place to be encouraging, because all I've gotten for it from a lot of people are put downs.  And I'm not going to stop encouraging people because some other people out there don't believe in AP.  If you don't, then don't respond to this conversation. 

Hi Joy

wow you sure opened a can of worms here lol! It is nice that you are trying to offer advice to new mums but I think that for any of us offering advice we really need to be careful how we word it, ie,

this is what I do and it works for me....

this is what i believe.....

rather than

this is the right way and all other ways are wrong

I think you may have originally come across to many as saying the above and that is why so many got their backs up. I think the best advice we can give new mums is to share our experiences but not to pressure them that one way is the only way.

I also think it would have helped if you had clarified your definition of CIO earlier. You later mentioned:
 I stated very clearly that what I am against is people who just leave their children completely alone in their rooms with the light out and door shut, and don't go to check on them or reassure them or anything. 

I think most people would agree with you that this is neglectful but I think that for most people who have done some sort of  'sleep training' with their child, this is nothing like how it is done. I think for most people who leave their babies to cry to help them learn how to self soothe it is done in a very thoughtful way ie only leaving them for short periods and offering comfort and reassurance at intervals.

The types of people who only touch their child when they are moving them from the crib to the swing to the playpen. 

I am not sure what the above quote refers to....to me it doesnt seem to have anything to do with CIO. When you make statements like this it really does come across as you saying that parents who CIO are terrible parents.

So, well done for trying to help new parents but maybe just think about some of your wording next time for both new and old parents!

Leanne - posted on 10/24/2009

Quoting Joy:

Quoting Kia:

My son is 9 months old and we have recently tried the cry it out method and it has given us our sanity back and our son is just as happy as he ever was and our relationship with him has not suffered.

You obviously feel strongly opposed to the cry it out method but it was the best thing we have ever done since our son was born and I think people like you are the reason the rest of us feel guilty so easily and are so hard on ourselves as parents.

Next time you decide to start a topic - choose one where you are not upsetting so many people.

I never once, in any of my posts put down other people and I even said that I don't want to put down anyone's parenting style and that I am trying to help and encourage new mothers who want to go the AP way.  You are making me sound like a jerk who just came on here saying that if anyone goes with a different method than me, then they are stupid.  I said many times in this conversation what my intentions are.  I am not here to put anyone down.  However, lots of mothers have been putting me down for my method.  One even said that all of us parents who believe in AP "have our kids shoved up our a**".  I never criticized anyone with any of my posts, but lots of people have been criticizing me and other mothers, so maybe you should be lecturing them.  I stated very clearly that what I am against is people who just leave their children completely alone in their rooms with the light out and door shut, and don't go to check on them or reassure them or anything.  The types of people who only touch their child when they are moving them from the crib to the swing to the playpen.  I have sadly met people who do this.  THIS is what I think is wrong and neglectful.  It seems to me like a lot of people do not completely understand attachment parenting, and are also misunderstanding my meaning of crying it out.  I understand that there are different methods to use and every baby is different, so you have to adjust to each one.  So do not say things like "people like you are the reason the rest of us feel guilty".  My whole point of these posts was to be encouraging to mothers who believe in attachment parenting, but I guess circle of mothers is not the right place to be encouraging, because all I've gotten for it from a lot of people are put downs.  And I'm not going to stop encouraging people because some other people out there don't believe in AP.  If you don't, then don't respond to this conversation. 

Hi Joy

wow you sure opened a can of worms here lol! It is nice that you are trying to offer advice to new mums but I think that for any of us offering advice we really need to be careful how we word it, ie,

this is what I do and it works for me....

this is what i believe.....

rather than

this is the right way and all other ways are wrong

I think you may have originally come across to many as saying the above and that is why so many got their backs up. I think the best advice we can give new mums is to share our experiences but not to pressure them that one way is the only way.

I also think it would have helped if you had clarified your definition of CIO earlier. You later mentioned:
 I stated very clearly that what I am against is people who just leave their children completely alone in their rooms with the light out and door shut, and don't go to check on them or reassure them or anything. 

I think most people would agree with you that this is neglectful but I think that for most people who have done some sort of  'sleep training' with their child, this is nothing like how it is done. I think for most people who leave their babies to cry to help them learn how to self soothe it is done in a very thoughtful way ie only leaving them for short periods and offering comfort and reassurance at intervals.

The types of people who only touch their child when they are moving them from the crib to the swing to the playpen. 

I am not sure what the above quote refers to....to me it doesnt seem to have anything to do with CIO. When you make statements like this it really does come across as you saying that parents who CIO are terrible parents.

So, well done for trying to help new parents but maybe just think about some of your wording next time for both new and old parents!

Jaclyn - posted on 10/24/2009

Quoting Stacey:

I am not much of a fan of 'Crying it out', but I did use a similar method to teach my babies to sleep, it involves letting them cry for a limited time except if the cry is an emotional one, there is a difference between an emotional cry and a cry for attention or as a protest to going to bed and you learn the difference very quickly. I let my children cry at sleep times, but I never leave them if it is an emotional cry and I never leave them to cry for extended periods, but using a controlled method of letting them cry has taught them to put themselves to sleep without assistance (I believe this is an important skill for young children to have), it helps keep good routines where my children almost always get a good 12 hours sleep every night, how many children do you know that get that much sleep every night? And once I implemented this method and routines for my children they actually became happier. I like you was totally against CIO, and I am still not fond of letting babies cry when they are emotional or for extended periods, but I just wanted you to realise there are many different methods of letting your baby cry and some can be very beneficial to babies and children, both my children both took a long time to go to sleep and would wake frequently and therefore were not getting quality sleep and were very unsettled and unhappy as a result, I really do believe that this sleep method was the best thing I could do not just for me but for my children too.

You're right!! In Australia CIO is called Controlled Crying - Where you put baby down and leave them to cry and you go in every 5ish minutes - which in another book was pointed out that this was teasing your baby by making them think you were coming in for comfort, but then the parent goes in fixing up their position/covers etc without looking at them or talking to them, then walking out. This confuses baby and gets them worked up again.

I say I did CIO because when I explain how I did it (like your method) as per my book (Save Our Sleep), people just say, "Oh Yeah, Same Thing". But in actual fact, it's a different method that I feel is better for your baby and your own sanity.

And I also believe it's the best thing I could've done for my whole family too!!!

Jaclyn - posted on 10/24/2009

Quoting Stacey:

I am not much of a fan of 'Crying it out', but I did use a similar method to teach my babies to sleep, it involves letting them cry for a limited time except if the cry is an emotional one, there is a difference between an emotional cry and a cry for attention or as a protest to going to bed and you learn the difference very quickly. I let my children cry at sleep times, but I never leave them if it is an emotional cry and I never leave them to cry for extended periods, but using a controlled method of letting them cry has taught them to put themselves to sleep without assistance (I believe this is an important skill for young children to have), it helps keep good routines where my children almost always get a good 12 hours sleep every night, how many children do you know that get that much sleep every night? And once I implemented this method and routines for my children they actually became happier. I like you was totally against CIO, and I am still not fond of letting babies cry when they are emotional or for extended periods, but I just wanted you to realise there are many different methods of letting your baby cry and some can be very beneficial to babies and children, both my children both took a long time to go to sleep and would wake frequently and therefore were not getting quality sleep and were very unsettled and unhappy as a result, I really do believe that this sleep method was the best thing I could do not just for me but for my children too.

You're right!! In Australia CIO is called Controlled Crying - Where you put baby down and leave them to cry and you go in every 5ish minutes - which in another book was pointed out that this was teasing your baby by making them think you were coming in for comfort, but then the parent goes in fixing up their position/covers etc without looking at them or talking to them, then walking out. This confuses baby and gets them worked up again.

I say I did CIO because when I explain how I did it (like your method) as per my book (Save Our Sleep), people just say, "Oh Yeah, Same Thing". But in actual fact, it's a different method that I feel is better for your baby and your own sanity.

And I also believe it's the best thing I could've done for my whole family too!!!

Sarah - posted on 10/24/2009

Quoting Andrea:

Quoting Sarah:

Quoting Andrea:

"implied that we are depriving ourselves and our kids valuable time and LOVE by letting them have a little whinge before they drop off to sleep"

Please show us where this was implied.
With this post you have offered no useful data but your annoyance and anger.
Perhaps it would have helped if you had read the whole thread.

Well, the OP has implied that with the part of her post saying : And whenever you are tired of rocking your baby to sleep and wish you could just lay him/her down and leave the room, just think that if something were to happen, and this were your last time you got to spend with your baby, wouldn't you wish you had enjoyed that extra bit of bonding, instead of trying to get away as soon as possible? Enjoy every moment you have with your baby, and whey they don't want you to ever put them down, take that as a compliment. The love that your baby has for you is a kind of love that you can't find anywhere else.

As for offering data.....i apologise, i thought this was about opinions not data.

As for being annoyed and angry, well yeah probably.....but that's not  a crime is it?

I just lost a whole bunch of post. Here is the jyst of it. No it isn't a crime to voice your opinion. But if you had read the thread you would have seen that we already hashed out what CIO ad AP means to each of us to get out of this type of posting, and from what I read we seemed to agree to disagree. Don't expect a warm welcome when you start out from an angry stance. It is your right to feel insulted or offended (can't remember the words  you used) if that is what you want to feel. I never felt insulted when people told me that I was going to spoil my kids with hugging them too much and responding to their needs because I believed strongly enough that what I was doing was right. So maybe you could start there.

As for me I will try to continue to contribute with supporting those who do not want to use CIO. Which I believe was the reason this thread was started. Those who are interested in CIO can start a new thread and even post here if you have a good argument to consider. But nothing in an angry post will make me think that you posted something objective worth to try out. Sorry.

One part of my post was angry, not the whole thing.

You're not likely to feel insulted for people basically saying you love your child too much........what people imply to those who use CIO is that we don't love our kids enough or even at all, which is bound to strike a nerve. The OP suggest that if something were to happen to my kids, i would feel extremely guilty for not using AP methods of parenting. I do think that is insulting.

I too strongly believe i have done the right thing for my kids.......i respond to their needs every single day, i merely have also let them have a little cry before they've fallen asleep.

Perhaps i should state that i don't believe in letting tiny babies cry. CIO should be age appropriate. I also never followed any methods, i used my own little system, based on my own children.

I also have to wonder about people citing these studies about how AP babies are more secure and confident, how do you quantify feelings? Surely there are too many other variables that could contribute to these feelings for people to state as fact that AP was the cause.

As i said in my original post, there's WAY too much judgement on this subject (from both parties) each to their own, if you met my kids, i doubt that you would be able to tell that i've left them to cry for 10 minutes before they sleep, just as i wouldn't meet your kids and i think, 'oh they were obviously raised with AP methods'.

It doesn't matter what method you use as long as baby/toddler/child is happy and healthy!

Leave the judgements at the door is what i trying to say......sorry if that got lost in translation somewhere along the line.

Andrea - posted on 10/23/2009

Christine I just got to reading your post with your question. What I am seeing is a kid who lost his security when his parents divorced. Going form one place to the other and have to conform to a new routine and expectation is very tough on a 3 year old. I am not surprised he would regress. What is amazing is that he is able to verbalize what his problem is and what the solution would be for him. He needs you more now including at night to feel secure with you. And by the way kids will cry with mommy more because they trust you that they can do that in front of you. They won't be ridiculed or put down for being a baby, when they are supposed to act big and they remember on a subconscious level that being a baby meant lots of cuddles, holding and feeling good and safe. I would not take that away from him. Does he stay with his dad on the weekends? If he does it is a lot of change for him in a short period of time. Just when he would get used to one place, yours or his, he is taken away into a new environment yet again. What would you do if you were forced to endure quick changes against your wishes? You would either feel stressed out of become depressed from lack of control over the situation. The way I see it is not to start leaving him to cry to deal with the fact that now you don't want to be with him either. I hope this assessment doesn't offend anyone, this is how I feel empathy toward that little 3 year old who had the rugs pulled out from under his feet and it has been sliding ever since. I know both parents have rights to see their children but I don't think the current rules address kids' needs. They address the parents' needs to have the kid but it doesn't take it into account that it is very tough on little people. If we were divorced we would co-parent, leave the kids in the home they know and we would take turns in the house, leaving the parent who has a turn with the kids. This might sound like I am from Mars but that is how we feel divorce rules would address our children's needs and it isn't for everyone. Your son will get used to the situation and he will understand it when he gets older but 3 is too young IMO he doesn't understand anything about the world around him and the little world he knew became confusing too.

Christine I don't think you are cuddling him too much. You are giving him what he needs emotionally. Can you change your sleeping arrangement at home, and use 2 mattresses in his room to sleep there? You don't have to sleep in his bed, if the bed moves that would wake me up too. But put your mattress on the box spring on the floor without the wheels and his mattress beside yours on the floor so it looks like you are on a level higher. You would still be sleeping with him but he wouldn't be kicking you and you wouldn't have to get out of your bed to reassure him when he wakes up. You can just put your hand on him and say a few words that you are there and it is night time and we need to sleep. I would use touch and cut out the singing at night and use kiss or a few words once in a while to get him to stop requesting songs. It might take time so I would start it at a time when you don't have to go to work the next day, as you may have to be up more initially. Once you see that he is sleeping better you could start sleeping in your own room if that is what you want eventually to happen. You could start cutting back the songs at bedtime too, from 6-8 remove one every 3-4 days to shorten the singing sessions until it is down to one, or two. I used one song for each boy. I picked the ones I could sing that were long enough to settle them but they picked from my selection which one each liked so I assigned a song to each kid. When the song was over, it was sleep time. I got a turtle night light that casts stars on the ceiling and one of the songs was about the moon and the stars so we could look at the stars on the ceiling. In the previous house I painted stars with fluorescent paint so it didn't show during the day but when the light was turned off they were there for a while until they faded and kids fell asleep. I turned on the night light when they fell asleep but they went to bed in the dark with the stars on the ceiling.

If your son doesn't have a lovey I suggest you introduce one now. Pick a few that he seems to like and when you pick him up or you hug him make sure you grab the lovey too and hug them as one unit. Soon you will find he will grab his favorite toy and tries to self soothe. Stick with that one he uses most often. One of my sons picked a bear when he was about 8-9 months old but it wasn't safe when he started to chew the nose so I replaced it with a similar one that had the nose and eyes embroidered. He didn't mind the switch as it smelled the same. The other has 2 identical blankies (long story) that have snowman head attached. These things come with us anywhere any time when they are not sure where we are going or what we are going to do, they grab them and bring them along. They sleep with them and when they are upset they hug them they don't always need me to do that. The first time we used these I put them into my night shirt so my smell would be stuck on them. the next day I started to hug the toys with the kids. I hope this helps.

I wish I could get my lost post back but I am too sleepy to retype and I am going to bed.

Andrea - posted on 10/23/2009

Quoting Sarah:

Quoting Andrea:

"implied that we are depriving ourselves and our kids valuable time and LOVE by letting them have a little whinge before they drop off to sleep"

Please show us where this was implied.
With this post you have offered no useful data but your annoyance and anger.
Perhaps it would have helped if you had read the whole thread.

Well, the OP has implied that with the part of her post saying : And whenever you are tired of rocking your baby to sleep and wish you could just lay him/her down and leave the room, just think that if something were to happen, and this were your last time you got to spend with your baby, wouldn't you wish you had enjoyed that extra bit of bonding, instead of trying to get away as soon as possible? Enjoy every moment you have with your baby, and whey they don't want you to ever put them down, take that as a compliment. The love that your baby has for you is a kind of love that you can't find anywhere else.

As for offering data.....i apologise, i thought this was about opinions not data.

As for being annoyed and angry, well yeah probably.....but that's not  a crime is it?

I just lost a whole bunch of post. Here is the jyst of it. No it isn't a crime to voice your opinion. But if you had read the thread you would have seen that we already hashed out what CIO ad AP means to each of us to get out of this type of posting, and from what I read we seemed to agree to disagree. Don't expect a warm welcome when you start out from an angry stance. It is your right to feel insulted or offended (can't remember the words  you used) if that is what you want to feel. I never felt insulted when people told me that I was going to spoil my kids with hugging them too much and responding to their needs because I believed strongly enough that what I was doing was right. So maybe you could start there.

As for me I will try to continue to contribute with supporting those who do not want to use CIO. Which I believe was the reason this thread was started. Those who are interested in CIO can start a new thread and even post here if you have a good argument to consider. But nothing in an angry post will make me think that you posted something objective worth to try out. Sorry.

Andrea - posted on 10/23/2009

Quoting Alison:

Quoting Christina:

Personally, and very strongly, I think that letting your baby "cry it out" is disgusting and there is nothing anyone can try and say to debate me on that. When your baby is crying, they're crying for a reason, as a mother it's YOUR job to figure out why.

What if he's crying in your arms for hours night after night because he's overtired?  What if his exciting day makes him tend to stay up until he's past cranky?  What then, if his poor cranky overtired body can't stay asleep?  How do we break a cycle of exhaustion for a person we can't explain our actions to?  Nobody who bothers to join a discussion group called "circle of moms" is trying to traumatize their children.  Take your high horse out back and shoot it.

Try a nap the next day to prevent being overtired and stick with it. Or try an earlier bedtime, don't wait until the baby is exhausted. the sleep cues got lost somewhere during the day and the result is a kid who can't sleep from exhaustion.

Isobel - posted on 10/23/2009

Quoting Joy:

From Tara:

"well then maybe you shouldnt put down moms who are ok with cio-you even admitted you do it sometimes. saying that the baby has given up hope on a parent condems the rest of us and makes us sound like were crappy parents. so maybe you just need to think and reword the way you say things."


You need to read MY WHOLE POST. I did not say that I let my child cry it out. I said that I understand when parents put their children in their cribs and check on them every few minutes and let them know that they're still there, and that I have done this on occasion when I needed to get stuff done. That is not my definition of CIO. CIO is when you leave your child alone and just let them scream and cry and make themselves sick until they pretty much pass out. And I have NEVER done that to my child. I never put down anyone in my posts and if you actually read what I had to say instead of reading part and twisting my words, you would see that. In the post that you just quoted, I did not put anyone down whatsoever. I think you need to make sure you know what you're quoting before you respond to it.

no...leaving them alone, letting them scream and cry until they are sick is abuse...check your definitions.

People who advocate CIO Never recomend leaving babies alone until they sleep period...that is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.

No wonder so many women have been offended throughout the thread

Isobel - posted on 10/23/2009

Quoting Joy:

From Tara:

"well then maybe you shouldnt put down moms who are ok with cio-you even admitted you do it sometimes. saying that the baby has given up hope on a parent condems the rest of us and makes us sound like were crappy parents. so maybe you just need to think and reword the way you say things."


You need to read MY WHOLE POST. I did not say that I let my child cry it out. I said that I understand when parents put their children in their cribs and check on them every few minutes and let them know that they're still there, and that I have done this on occasion when I needed to get stuff done. That is not my definition of CIO. CIO is when you leave your child alone and just let them scream and cry and make themselves sick until they pretty much pass out. And I have NEVER done that to my child. I never put down anyone in my posts and if you actually read what I had to say instead of reading part and twisting my words, you would see that. In the post that you just quoted, I did not put anyone down whatsoever. I think you need to make sure you know what you're quoting before you respond to it.

no...leaving them alone, letting them scream and cry until they are sick is abuse...check your definitions.

People who advocate CIO Never recomend leaving babies alone until they sleep period...that is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.

No wonder so many women have been offended throughout the thread

Giselle - posted on 10/23/2009

Quoting Jaclyn:


I will also mention that as soon as my bubs got sick with swine flu (extremely bad and scary flu I might add - very frightening), he woke often and because he wouldn't take liquids I breastfed him as much as he would take it.
Then I had to start at square one again. It didn't work as well the second time around. He woke at midnight and then again at 5am, then would wake at 7.30 to stay up. But he would go to bed without a peep.
So I let him cry through the midnight whinge, which would last anywhere from 2 minutes to 10 and after a few days he now doesn't make a peep at midnight, but still wakes at 5.30, but I tried letting him cry at that time of morning and it's not working, he seems to be starving, so I get him up and breasst feed him, then he falls back asleep in my bed with me, then waking at 7.15am to start the day.

I just count my blessings that he's not still waking every 2 hours. Since it's a huge improvement, I'm not worrying about it. It's better than him waking at 5.30 and NOT going back to sleep.

Another 'expert' has said that, above a certain age (I can't remember what age), babies don't need to feed through the night and should be sleeping through. So if they are feeding through the night, you need to 'stop', it's not negotiable. They just need a few days to realise that they don't actually need it and will sleep through. That doesn't mean ignore them, she suggests still going in to comfort at that stage, but then putting them back in the cot awake.
As for me - I'm happy feeding at 5.30. I feel that if he's that starving, then I'm happy to feed. I can see where she's coming from. When I wake at night and I'm up with bubs for a certain amount of time, I get hungry too and I certainly don't need a feed through the night. Maybe you just feel like you need a feed or a drink.

I'm so sorry to hear he got the swine flu, and really happy that he made it ok. That is definitely a reason to fall off the sleep schedule.

For my triplets, we started pushing 6 hours of sleep at night when the doctor told us they would be ok to have that break and not lose weight. My boys were very premature and underweight at birth, so we had to push as much feedings and never miss one till about 6 months. Then we always made sure they finished the bottle before bed, burped good and swaddled them. The swaddling simulates the feeling of being confined in the womb, or being cuddled to sleep without the disruption of being laid down. For us, it was vital that we started getting a normal nights sleep, I was dealing with undiagnosed post partum depression and exhaustion was really tasking our marriage. So we used calm music therapy, a strict bed time routine, and patience to get them to sleep through the night. The nice thing, is they have stuck with the routine. At 3 years of age, they joyfully go to bed. My husband likes to lay down in the room until they pass out, but he has a mattress and they each have a car bed to sleep on. This is more for him than them, they would go to bed on thier own. He just likes to wait till the are asleep because he has precious little time with them during the day. We still swaddle them because they get the wiggles, and this calms them down.

Kelly - posted on 10/23/2009

I also let my babies cry and would periodically get up and check on them. They are now 18, 15 and 7 and all are adjusted well and are happy. I do not think it is cruel to let them cry a little. It develops their lungs. I love all three of my children with my whole heart and all have adjusted fine. One in fact is living in another state with a full ride schloarship. She did not get there without the love of both her parents!!!!!!

Giselle - posted on 10/23/2009

We have developed something called the tickle method to deal with excessive crying. Basically, if the crying is not from physical pain, and a bottle, hugs, counting or singing isn't working. We will tickle thier tummys and armpits. This works for babies who giggle when tickled. It almost always switches my boys from bawling and angry crying to laughing hysterically. They will even ask for it when they are feeling angry. And have tried to tickle themselves just for fun. It is controversial, but it works for my overly dramatic 3 year old triplets.

Giselle - posted on 10/23/2009

I raised triplets and much as I would have liked to rock them to sleep for bedtime, I physically could not do that and get enough rest for myself. I pumped a gallon every day ladies! And we were doing bottles every 3 hours till almost 6 months of age. I had to 6 hours of sleep every night.

We, instead used a different routine for bedtime. Our therapists had us teach the boys to suck on the hand and promoted self soothing behaviors. We have also swaddled them since birth. The swaddling makes them feel safe and keeps them from staying awake from wiggling all over. As the boys became big enough to go 6 hours at night between bottles. We started a very regular, dependable bedtime routine. We had the last bottle from 8-9PM. We would dress them so that they would stay warm, with the same style of night clothes every night. We would turn on a relaxing classical or similar CD on repeat. We would spend a few minutes rocking and saying good night. If they started to cry after we leaft, we would turn up the music and wait a little while. The music would calm them down just like falling asleep on mommies chest and listening to my heartbeet. They took to this routine very easily, and didn't cry much. Even during teething and colds/flus, the bedtime routine stays constant.

Even though I couldn't provide the constant physical attachment that I would have to a single baby, my boys feel confident that I am there for them. Because I had to manage help, and setup regular routines. They always saw me doing this and are some of the most well adjusted, delayed 3 year olds around. My boys know they can't rely on me to catch them if they fall, because I can't physically save them from their foolishness. They have ownership of their well being and are good at helping and team work, because that helps mommy. But they do know that if they end up hurt, I am there for them. I had one son go to the emergency room by himself, and he was confident that I would pick him up soon. He was nice, but weapy with the nursing staff. And fealt safe with the EMT and the ambulance. He lost his balance and hit his head on a corner at daycare. It wouldn't stop bleeding and he ended up with some stitches. Daycare had to send him allone, because they had no one who could ride with him. Instead of freaking out, he calmly went with the EMTs, and his brothers, though worried, were much less worried because he was being taken care of by medical personel. They knew I would be picking them up, so they didn't worry and cry too much.

Being a mother is a unique experience for everyone. I think that we all have to try and figure out how to make things work on our own. This technique works for me, and may also work for other mothers who just can't have the baby attached at the hip. Babies born prematurely, like mine were at 32 weeks, can't be handled the same as babies born full term. It takes them a long time to support themselves. So, the constant attachment technique doesn't really work for them. If the child has physical problems which result in a special chair, surgeries, or whatever, the parents won't be able to follow the constant attachment methods. If the mother has health problems resulting from the pregnancy, she may not be able to carry the baby around all the time. Multiples make that very difficult too. I have always had to manage my time with the boys, especially during the 5 weeks in the NICU. So, we find other ways of making our children feel safe, secure and stable.

The most important thing I have found is a constant stable routine. If my boys know what to expect, then they feel confident and safe. If they are not sure what to expect, they get upset and stressed. Even as newborns, they thrived on a constant predictable schedule, and would stick to it. I have one son who demands that the schedule be kept, and always has kept us on schedule. He is a complete nightmare if things go off schedule.

Laura - posted on 10/23/2009

i will not publicly contribute to this thread, but if anyone would like to hear what i did, only for suggestions, not judgement necessary i would love to try to help.. and yes i did use an apparent form of CIO.. although i didnt put a name to it, but again, i will be glad to tell my story

Sarah - posted on 10/23/2009

I agree to a cetain extent. I rocked and or sang by kids to sleep hen they were babies.( Now I read to them they are 4 and 3 years old.) However i have let them cry themselves to sleep also. I made she they were feed, changed and bathed. I would sing them a song and then it was time for bed. My kids aren't clinging, they play by themselves or with each other and we do family things. I never picked them up every time cried. My kids love me and I love them but doctors tell you not to because they do need to learn to sooth themselves, not in the first few months but eventually. If one does let their child cry I wouldn't let them cry more then 10 or 15 minutes. It depends on how you want to raise you child. I read that sing is very soothing so i did it at bath time and bed time. My kids didn't cry that much unless they were hungry or wet.

Lynda - posted on 10/23/2009

I'm agreeing too.. I could never sit and listen to my now 11yo crying.. even when I saw Karitane staff helping another mum do just that.. There may be some bubs somewhere that it works with.. but I would have been a basket-case if I'd tried.. sure it was hard being on call 24/7 and I do only have the one, so I'm no one to criticize, I think mums sometimes need to look at their feelings first and a book later.. but that's just me. The only bit of 'advice' I'd offer here would be to go for the pats, strokes, cuddles, soothing, suckling whatever but when it starts getting overpowering keep tabs on the time!.. have a target - have a clock on the wall.. give yourself the count of 120 (2 minutes).. then go make a cuppa.. have a cry, whatever you need to do to get your strength back, then go back.. DON'T sit there in an agony of tiredness, frustration and guilt.. you're not doing either of you any good!

Jodi - posted on 10/23/2009

Quoting Christine:

Thanks for all the feedback tonight. He's asleep now. We'll  see how the night proceeds. I only hope no one calls the police if he screams to loudly....uuuggghhh. I sincerely dread this. Christine

 

 

Good luck Christine.  Hang in there. I know its tough.  I'll be online on and off (I'm in Australia, its only midday here), so if you want to PM me for some support, go for it :)