Same sex marriage

Rosie - posted on 03/29/2010

i don't see why everybody is so up in arms about whether or not to call it marriage. marriage is a legal conract between 2 people, in most states it's between a man and a woman, in my state it's not. this country used to have laws that black and white people couldn't marry, arguabley most people now a days would say that's crazy. soon all of this hubbub will be for nothing, and more states will be like mine, and gay marriage will be normal.

i just don't get how common law marriages are legal and why nobody is making a big stink about them being called married when they didn't even do ANYTHING that is needed to be legally married. but you want to know why i don't make a big stink? because love is love, and i could give a crap less about who does what with whom. god doesn't make the laws for this country, and the last time i checked most of the people who were against this wouldn't like it if you were subject to another religions laws. women are treated so great in the islamic culture. so why subject others to rules of your religion? there is such a thing as seperation of church and state in this country for a reason, and it is a blatent disregard for our constitution that this law is actually in place in most states.

Nikki - posted on 03/29/2010

Anything less that legally letting two committed people marry each other if they choose to, is discrimination. Changing words leads to "separate but equal", type thinking which has obviously been proven as wrong when applies to other minority groups. Anything that gives less rights is wrong.

Katherine - posted on 03/29/2010

Well, Mandie, as previously stated it's just not socially acceptable to be gay. I must say this is one of the best debates yet on CoM, that has not gotten catty(fingers crossed) I am very glad to see the respect emanating through this thread, whether you agree with the poster or not. I really like that.

Mandie - posted on 03/29/2010

I agree Katherine, hence my tongue in cheek response to Tandy- IMO it's ignorant to take the attitude of 'they just need to stop'- that's like saying stop breathing. You are who you are- I dont know if I believe in God as such, but if there IS a Creator of some kind, then I agree we are all made how we are. I absolutely take my hat off to any gay people who are open about their sexuality b/c damn, they cop alot of flak from all corners. And I just dont understand why. It is essentially their own business.

Katherine - posted on 03/29/2010

Let me ask this: Are you saying gay people have made their bed so now they must sleep in it? (What a lot you could pull from that) because I don't believe it's a choice, or a preference or even a lifestyle for many. I think GOD made them that way.

Grace - posted on 03/29/2010

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Kerri - posted on 03/29/2010

I don't see the big deal in 2 people of the same sex being married. Seriously what are they doing to you by getting married? They aren't physically hurting anyone and in my opinion it none of anyone else's damn business if they get married or not. They are not asking you to marry a chick they are simply showing there love for one another just as a man and a woman does. Why is it okay for a man and a woman to get married but its not okay for two men or two women?



Why do they have to resort to "life partner" instead of Husband and husband or wife and wife?



Why do they have to feel ashamed to get married? Why is against the law for them to get married? This issue really pisses me off and I'm not even gay. Every person should have the right to marry whoever they want to.

Grace - posted on 03/29/2010

Thanks Mandie....appreciate your support. :)

Mandie - posted on 03/29/2010

PS- wow we've covered alot of topics on this one post haven't we?

Mandie - posted on 03/29/2010

Hear hear Grace, I couldn't agree more. One of the main reasons I dont have a religion personally- more power to those that do if that makes them happy. I just have a problem with ANY organisation- not just the church, I include the Government in that too- telling people that they cant marry b/c of their sexual orientation.

Grace - posted on 03/29/2010

OK....again, what does the church have to do with a legal binding contract governed by the state. Separation of church and state ladies. This is not about being allowed to be married in the church....this is about being able to enter into a legal binding contract like everyone else.



I am Catholic and my family has been embraced by our Parish Priest, because he is a man of GOD and loves and respects all.



Seriously some of you should really start acting like Christians. That's what Jesus would do!

Mandie - posted on 03/29/2010

Again, this is what goes on your experience. Not everywhere. Even given that you know others who work and live in other areas. As I've said I'm not Catholic but my husband's very large family all are and none of them have heard- openly at least- of any gay people being allowed into the congregation.



Look, I'm not totally against the Catholic church, I agreed as per hubby's wishes, to our kids to be baptised into his faith- mainly b/c I dont have one and it was important to him for family tradition reasons. I just think that some things need to be reviewed with a view to how life is today and not how it was when the bible was written. Over-simplifed probably but for the sake of brevity, that's how I see it.



And as you brought up, according to the church, it's the same with pre-marital sex. When our children were baptised we couldn't take the sacrement (not that it worried us in all honesty) b/c we're considered to have had pre-marital sex due to the fact that we've both been divorced and weren't married in a Catholic church; therefore our marriage isn't recognised by the Catholic church. And also the fact that I am not Catholic. Wierdly though, the priest said that technically my husband is a 'worse' sinner in the eyes of the church b/c I'm not Catholic (I guess that means I know no better or something) and my 1st marriage was annulled b/c my ex married a Catholic girl who wanted to get married in the church, so apprently my only 'sin' is pre-marital sex. But hubby has committed the 'sins' of pre-marital sex and adultery according to the Church b/c his divorce is not recognised and he obviously has had sex with me given that we have 2 children- Confused? Yeh me too.



I dont disagree that's hypocrisy for all those other professions- I actually nearly put that in my post but felt that my post was going to be long enough already LOL. But I do feel it's greater hypocrisy from priests. In the same way I cant understand mothers who harm their children- in both cases it seems to be the complete antithesis of the role.

Jamie - posted on 03/29/2010

I never said anyone was trying to change my beliefs. I do think it was wrong of the priests who have done this, it is inexcusable and disgusting. And yes, they are supposed to be a role model. You say it is "ENORMOUS hypocrisy" which I don't disagree with, but then so are the teachers, and sports coaches, and doctors, and police officers who do it too! No I cannot speak for parishes I have not been to, but I have actually been all around the US doing retreat work for many different parishes, and have seen first hand what I just explained. I personally have not been oversees, I know plenty of others who have and have said the same. Not saying you personally, but it is a general thought that "catholics are closed-minded" When really all we do is live by the bible, which if you read does state how the act of gay sex is a sin (which is why gay marriage is a sin). And the act of gay sex is a sin for the exact same reason why pre-marital sin is a sin. Most catholics, and yes world-wide (as I know many catholics from all over the world who are motivational speakers, singers, etc.) are very excepting of everybody, including gay. I say most because I cannot speak for absolutely everybody, everybody is a sinner. I do know that many gay people would not enjoy coming to church, and I do understand why they would feel un-welcomed --if they did not first do the research and talk to others about it. BUT, religion is a very personal choice, that each person needs to make on there own, no body is to be forced into it, but I do think that everyone should be aware of beliefs and what actually goes on.

Melanie - posted on 03/29/2010

I totally agree with Dree and fair play to you for standing up to the ignorant lot. I wish people were more tolerant as i have said before you should be free to marry whomever you choose whether it's same sex or not. I think any person who can love a child unconditionally and tend to their needs can be a parent and it shouldn't matter what sexual preference you are. There needs to be more people like you who are willing to stand up for what you believe in. And i hope you do one day get to marry your girlfriend. xx

Mandie - posted on 03/29/2010

I dont think anyone is trying to change your mind Jamie, You obviously feel strongly about your beliefs and whilst many of us disagree with you, I respect you for sticking to your principles.



However you have raised some points that conflict with others' beliefs and also with what goes on in other Catholic parishes and countries so you cant really blame people for weighing in with their thoughts and the facts of which they are aware. If your church is welcoming of gay Catholics then that's great. But the facts are, the vast majority of the Catholic Churches WORLD-WIDE do not. And I'm sorry but I still think it's hypocrisy to welcome people into a Church to worship but deny them the right to be married simply b/c of one aspect of their life. To me it's a bit like decades ago when caucasians would think it was ok for African Americans to work on their properties but not to own their own land or vote etc. It's like saying 'You're good enough to be part of our society but only in the way that we dictate to you' If the gay couples in your church are happy that's great and good for them. But many gay couples aren't given the choice.

Also on the priest issue, I know the same thing has happened where I live as in Ireland. And OF COURSE people pay more attention to it when priests abuse children!! Apart from the fact of the ENORMOUS hypocrisy; as you yourself said, they are supposed to be followers of God and make an impact on children that's GOOD, not traumatise them for life! Given the fact that the Catholic Church itself reports dramatically decreasing attendance numbers world-wide I'd have thought they'd take the issue more seriously than they traditionally have. I'm sorry Jamie but what goes on in your parish does not necessarily reflect what goes on in other Catholic parishes.

Jamie - posted on 03/29/2010

But really, I would like to know where the girl who started the post went lol

Jamie - posted on 03/29/2010

I cannot speak for what happened in Ireland. I do knoe that the piests accused in Boston were punished. But I still keep the agument, it does happen everywhere else. People put more attention to priests and ministers because they are followers of God and supposed to be a huge impact on the lives of children, even more-so than teachers---for the children who do attend church.

I have also seen a few posts saying how the church is so "un-welcoming" If this is so, then why can I think of 8 gay couple who attend the same mass I do on a weekly basis? And these same 8 couples are also very involved (some of them are Religous Education teacher, lectors, eucaristic ministers, and 2 are in the parish council.) And this is just at 1 church in this city, (there are 7 catholic churches in the city I live in.) and just 1 mass out of the 5 celebrated each week.

Also, just to verify, nothing was ever said about you "having to live life by the bible" I was simply stating facts on why the catholic church is against the marriage aspect. Catholics as a whole do not hate gays, they just don't think it is right for them to get married. And this also goes along with why pre-marital sex is a sin - both of them are for the same reason. If you do not believe in god, or follow any religion, that is your choice and I would never push you to it. I am a firm believer in my faith but does not mean I would preach to you. People who believe in same-sex marriage are certainly entitled to feel that way just as I am entitled to feel against it.

Leane - posted on 03/29/2010

i am in a same sex relationship, and intend to get 'married' one day, although it will be by law a civil ceramony and classed as a civil partnership that is not wot myself or my partner will call it. we will be getting married, we will be commiting ourselves to each other for the rest of our lives just as men and women in a hetrosexual marriage would, the only difference is the way people choose to see it.

Jessie - posted on 03/29/2010

I think you should be able to call it whatever you like. marriage, partnership, life partner whatever. My boyfriend and I have been together 5 years, have an 8 month old son, are buying a house together, etc but we have no intention of getting married. if we did, I'm sure it would be in a court house, quick and simple thank you not a church with a bunch of drama. so really, that would make us life partners right? point being if heterosexual couples can live together as partners, and get married as partners so should everyone else. my boyfriends sis has a wife and they have a child together and thats cool with me. every human deserves to be happy with whomever they chooses. a gay couple has zero effect on other married couples so whats the deal? mind your own business people!

Tracy - posted on 03/29/2010

Tandy, that's an incredibly simple statement to quote the Bible then demand they "quit" being gay. I've known many gay men and women in my life, not one chose to be gay. In fact, several went the "hetro" route for a long time. You can't deny who you are at the core.

Ivy - posted on 03/29/2010

People loving People! I'm all for it. It is the path to Peace..hmmm? isn't one of our commandments "thou shalt not judge". Lets not be hipocrates, lets just enjoy and appreciate our differances and except what we cannot change especially if does not harm us individually, and move on. Peace and harmony.ivy

Helen - posted on 03/29/2010

my brother married his partner (same sex) and they really happy whats wrong with people being happy there is to much nastyness out there be happy and in love ...........

Mandie - posted on 03/29/2010

Well said Lucy- I thought about weighing in on that one too but I dont actually know enough about the subject- I'm glad someone who does made comment. Certainly here in Australia it seems to be the same story.



I can say though that my husband, who comes from a long line of big Irish Catholic families- on both sides- totally REFUSES to let our children attend Catholic private school as a result of the physical abuse he received at the hands of the nuns who taught him- not just at one school but every Catholic school he went to (his family moved around alot as his dad was a Police Officer). He says he wasn't the only one, all the students got the same treatment and he doesn't believe the Church has changed enough to risk the same treatment of our children. I myself am not Catholic but I'll take his word for it.

. - posted on 03/29/2010

If they should quit being gay maybe you should quit being straight!



Who are we to deny someone for being in love with another- wether it be gay or straight-and deny them marriage? It's not going to affect our own!

Lucy - posted on 03/29/2010

@Jamie, the rare cases of abuse that occur in schools etc statistically pale into insignificance compared to the systematic abuse of children in the catholic church. It has recently come to light that HUNDREDS of children were abused by priests in Ireland over a 30 year period, and that this was DELIBERATELY covered up by the bishops there. Priests were not punished, the police were never involved and offenders were simply moved to different parishes to continue this abuse. It is a major scandal, and cannot be compared to anything else we have seen in the modern age.



I respect the views of individual catholics, such as yourself, even though I may not agree with them, but cannot begin to fathom how an institution that has fostered such wickedness can claim the right to judge others for whom they wish to marry.

Jen - posted on 03/29/2010

how can people say quit now do u think my twin brother was born n thought i think i wana be gay thts a stupid comment. gay etc its who they am like i couldnt walk til i was five was tht my choice did i decide to do tht n let people call me a retard no tht who i am n thts whi i will always be. u cnt say stop now its not a choice.

Mandie - posted on 03/29/2010

My husband read this and wanted me to say the following:- "Tandy, how do you propose 'those who are doing it QUIT now', perhaps they could tear a page out of the bible and stick it to their arm?? Like a quit-smoking patch??"



Whilst my own response would be less flipant, I have to say I agree. Yours would have to be the least educated argument I have read thus far. I believe it also advises in the bible- admitted the Old Testament 'an eye for an eye'- are you taking that advice too? If you are best of luck to you and I hope the law catches up with you.

Tandy_chibaya - posted on 03/29/2010

Where in the Bible is it written "God created Adam and gave him Peter a helper" or " God created Eve and gave her Sarah a helper"? It is sin. Those who are doing it QUIT now.

Jen - posted on 03/29/2010

my brother is gay n if him n his other half want to get married then be it they love each other they take care of each other n my twin is really happy in himself before he met this guy he wouldnt even say the word gay but now he admits its.

Mandie - posted on 03/28/2010

Very well said, both Carol and Kristi.

Kristi - posted on 03/28/2010

My whole thing too is we still have freedom of religion... freedom to practice any religion or no religion... and the primary argument AGAINST gay marriage is the religious argument "God/the Bible says it's wrong." First of all, the Bible isn't even followed as written anymore, otherwise we'd all be sacrificing goats on a regular basis (just for example). Secondly, if one is using the religious argument to say that gay couples shouldn't get married, they are forcing gay couples to live under religious beliefs they do not necessarily hold... Americans fought against the British 234 years ago to get AWAY from that... That was part of it anyway, we didn't want to be bound by the Church of England. So why are we forcing religious doctrine on anyone NOW?

All I can say is it was not ALL that long ago that in many places it was still illegal for interracial couples to marry... at least we got away from THAT... we'll get there, it just may take some time. We've come a long way, baby. Whether or not to repeal the gay marriage ban has made it to the ballots.... it'll happen, it just needs the votes. :-)

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2010

It concerns me greatly to hear of parents condoning and teaching their children to treat people who are different than them in a negative way. Your hair stylist (and every other gay/straight/bisexual/transgendered individual) deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. It was your responsibility to use your son's confusion as an opportunity to teach him about how to treat other people and what sort of comments are considered rude. It is this kind of thing that teaches kids that bullying and teasing are acceptable. And it can lead down the road to violence and gay bashing. The hairstylist most likely changed the subject because he did not feel it was his place to discipline your son, not because he did not have a response. You should be thankful that he treated you and your child with so much respect.

I've come to a point where in the last few years I've listened to so many arguments against gay marriage that make little actual sense and reflect no true values or morals that I have little time or patience for hearing any more. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice" it is integral to who a person is, just like my being straight. There is ample scientific/psychological studies that prove this. Same sex couples deserve equal rights. IMO, any suggestion otherwise is just plain bigoted. I am glad that the country which I live in has legalized gay marriage and that our laws protect the rights of ALL our citizens and will penalize those who feel that they have the right to discriminate against people with a different sexual orientation.

Mandie - posted on 03/28/2010

I have to say I agree with Joanna, Maria-what your son did was rude; I would have been absolutely MORTIFIED if any of my children said that. In his defence he knew no better as he is only 3 but the hairdresser should have had an apology and Loureen is right- he clearly thought it was ok b/c you did. Regardless of what you and/or your son believe your son is going to have to live in a world with people who are both the same and different to him and he needs to learn tolerance or he will have a sad and unhappy life. Would you have thought it was funny if he had made a racist comment if the hairdresser was non-causasian? No you wouldn't (well at least I HOPE not) and I dont see the difference.

Personally I wish I had been there, b/c I would have rescued the poor hairdresser by saying "He's being who he is, it doesn't matter if he's a boy or a girl"

I also wholeheartedly agree with Kristi, it is essentially a legal right that everyone should have, sexual orientation shouldn't be the criteria here- it should be whether or not 2 people are ready for the responsibility of commitment. It's been said before on this thread, most of the gay couples I am close to would put heterosexual couples to shame in terms of their commitment and respct for the ideals of marriage.

Kristi - posted on 03/28/2010

This is how I personally look at it.... everyone is entitled to believe what they believe for whatever reason they believe it. That being said, I believe it is unconstitutional (In the U.S., I understand there may be people who post here who are from other countries and I can't speak for them) to deny people who are gay the right to get married. Our Constitution provides for "Equal protection under the law", and that "All men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights... that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Denying people the right to get married conflicts with that. There are certain things that are only given to married couples/"family members" (medical decision-making authority, etc). I understand people have religious reasons for believing homosexuality, and therefore the marriage of homosexuals, is wrong. But denying them the right to get married won't make them straight. I don't think anyone is asking for people who don't believe in gay marriage to LIKE gay marriage, I think they just want the same rights as everyone else. I also don't think anyone is expecting for this church or that to perform a ceremony if it conflicts with the beliefs of that religion... but what does it hurt for a couple who loves each other, regardless of gender, to tie the knot, whether it be by civil ceremony or with a church that accepts homosexuality? In my opinion there is far too much hatred, ugliness, and unhappy things, that to deny happiness because a couple is of the same sex is just sad, really. And how can it be that a man and a woman getting trashed in Vegas and tying the knot at a drive-thru wedding chapel only to have it annulled the next day apparently somehow DOESN'T ruin the sanctity of marriage (since that's between a man and a woman and all), but two people who genuinely love each other and want to publicly and officially declare their love for each other but happens to be of the same sex somehow DOES? Doesn't make sense to me. Just my opinion.



On a lighter note, I have heard this joke, which I see is along the lines of some things some others have posted... "I don't see why gays can't get married... why shouldn't they be able to be just as miserable as the rest of us?" :-)

Grace - posted on 03/28/2010

Also, Laura Gisinger rocks!!!

Grace - posted on 03/28/2010

For all the Christians out there.....Jesus would not judge, he would love. He accepted everyone and God created us all. We should also remember that getting married in a courthouse is way different than getting married in a church. It is a contract and a commitment in the eyes of the law. We all have to answer to our God and I am very comfortable about meeting him some day.



Jenn, Alice, Katherine.....thank you for your vocal support.

Joanna - posted on 03/28/2010

Maria, I think instead of focusing on what the hairdresser did, you should have maybe apologized and later explained to your son that everyone is different and we should treat EVERYONE with respect. A 3 year old should be able to understand that message.

Charlie - posted on 03/28/2010

"funny how a child of that age would knew that it was wrong."



Theres nothing funny about it , he is a product of his environment .



Ignorance breeds ignorance .

Katherine - posted on 03/28/2010

A civil right? That really has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Maria, WHY can't someone choose to have what they want? We aren't talking about trans-gender, we are talking about SAME SEX marriage. Quite a difference.

Maria - posted on 03/28/2010

I do not agree with same sex marriage. It is funny because when my son was 3 yrs old. He asked one of the hair stylist " Why are you acting like a girl when you are boy. - He even asked me what was wrong with him" - It is funny how a child of that age would knew that it was wrong. I was embarrassed as a matter of fact. - The individual at the same time was shocked and he even changed his attitude because he did not know what to say - he did not respond to my son. Instead of resonding the individual changed the subject. It is not a civil right!!!

Katherine - posted on 03/28/2010

So we should keep it open?

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2010

If god had not intended same sex love to exist, it wouldn't. If god created our existence, and same-sex love exists, then it clearly was god's intention for some women to love women and some men to love men. Who are we to question?

Katherine - posted on 03/28/2010

Well I guess the majority is ANYONE should be allowed to marry. I should lock this, the OP abandoned post, anyone have objections? I don't mind keeping it open, let's be courteous though.

Alice - posted on 03/28/2010

Sory Katherine.

Katherine - posted on 03/28/2010

Ok, I believe I said no personal attacking. Alice, I can understand this may be a hot subject but let's not tell people to F off.

Eva - posted on 03/28/2010

I think everyone has the right to love and be loved but I don't think god intened for woman and woman to be together or men and men to be together.

Mandie - posted on 03/28/2010

Rachel, I think Katherine, and certainly I meant what bothers us is not just the use of the word 'they'- which you're right, in any sense is used to avoid repetitive nouns- but the WAY in which it's used. Tone of voice, snarly facial expression etc; which is hard to portray in the written word- but gives the impression that the person who's using the word doesn't like or approve of whomever they're talking about. You know like the way some racists use it when they are talking about non-caucasian people for example "THEY shouldn't be allowed to...... (whatever the objection is)" Does that make sense? I dont think it was meant in terms of just normal usage of the word 'they' as you have done, where clearly you meant no offence by it.

Alice - posted on 03/28/2010

That is so true.

Rachel - posted on 03/28/2010

PS - Peopl say they because it's repetitive to keep saying gay couples or whatever.... that is in no way saying anything about people being from another planet or anything.... If I was talking about my parents I would say they.... or anybody else... they. It's just a way of talking and I think it's ridiculously sensitive to take it like it's an insult. Sorry... not trying to be rude or anything, I just didn't feel like I should have to feel guilty for using the english language :-S And as far as God not making things to be gay.... why do we find it in nature? Animals are suppose to act on instint and it's fact that you can find homosexual tendencies in nature.... just saying. I am so sad that God has become something that people can't share.... we have to be one way or another.... we have to call him/her one thing or another... we have to fight over everything... I'm sure whoever God is if there is one... he/she'd want us to all get along and help one another. Too bad religion is so cruel... or I might want to believe in God. For now I'm sticking with Buddhism.... my kind of religion... PEACE, LOVE, ACCEPTANCE.... Gotta love Thich Nhat Hanh :-)

Rachel - posted on 03/28/2010

Marriage should be the coming together of two people in love. Their love is no different than your own so why should it be labeled differently??? I have never once felt at all negative towards people who choose to be with someone of the same sex. It does not effect anybody else... it is their decision. I don't see how people can think they have the right to tell someone how to live their lives or who they can marry. Love is sacred in whatever form it comes in. Why shouldn't two women or two men be able to support eachother and have the same rights as others? Why shouldn't a gay couple who has lived with eachother just as long if not longer than a man and woman have the right to leagally leave their finances and anything else to their partner? Marriage is a privilliage that anybody should have the right to have regardless of whom it's with. Two grown adults that love eachother... it's a blessing and we should all be happy for it. All the negativity that comes from two people loving eachother is obsurd. Religion is suppose to be welcoming to people... I doubt God would treat people differently because they love someone different. Stick to what's important.... people shouldn't be killing eachother... people should be good... I can't stand when religion becomes so strict and good people get less respect than they should. As long as people are good nothing else matters... religion, ethnicity, sexuality, none of it matters. Just be good peaceful people and you will be fine. Be good to others!