Spanking: let's just get all of the nastiness out here and call it a day!

Minnie - posted on 07/13/2009

Quoting Anna:

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Marta:

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Marta:

So, here's a question for all of the anti-spanking moms: when time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, you've taken away all of their priveleges, you've counted to three, you've given them three chances, you've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what do you do? I want an honest answer none of this read this book or that guide/article but a straight honest answer for a straight and honest question!

I would not spank my child even if I had exhausted all other forms of discipline.  I believe that if non-physical forms of discipline are no longer effective then the child's behaviour has become much more complex.  Spanking a child does not guarantee the desired behaviour parents are seeking with the punishment, and although some parents believe that it is effective, I very much doubt that parents would condone physical discipline of their child by anyone else (and if spanking is all that works, how then should others be expected to discipline them?)

Here's a question for the die-hard spanking moms:

When your child is at school and time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, the teacher has taken away all of their privileges, they've counted to three, they've given them three chances, they've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what does the teacher do?  I'm going to guess that the answer is "NOT spank the child".... 

 

No, the teacher would not spank they would call mom and dad and the child would be sent home. To get back on track you didn't answer my question what else can be done when the well known solutions have been exhausted?

I am on track...I answered your question.  You asked "then what do you do?"...and I said "I would not spank my child even if I had exhausted all other forms of discipline".  If you are speaking in general terms, then the question cannot be subjectively posed to each individual poster and rather you must ask in a broader sense what measures can be taken to find out what makes a child so seeminly unphased by disciplinary techniques that are proven to be extremely effective for many and most children.  Only then can you begin to look at other possibilities as forms of punishment.  Parents that use spanking always follow it up with "it's the only thing that works"...but if you look at how damaging that statement is to many other situations throughout life, you might begin to understand why there is such a stigma surrounding the action and furthermore why parents that do spank feel such a strong urge to constantly justify their actions, rather than speak confidently about their decision to spank their kids.

Just as an example.  I remember talking with an old co-worker about her Son getting into trouble at school because he was disrupting the class during lessons.  My co-worker tried every thing possible that she knew to discipline her Son to no avail, until she took him to the doctor and found out that he needed glasses and the reason for his disruption of the class was his impaired motor function when trying to concentrate on a work lesson, but not being able to see....had she spanked her Son to discipline his behaviour and continued to do so to "get her point across", she might not have taken the suggestions of her friends to have her Son tested for ADD.  He doesn't have ADD, but in testing him the doctor was able to uncover his problem.  This is what I mean when I am talking about children being resistant to all other forms of discipline and becoming deviant to the point where parents feel that spanking is the only option.  If children reach the point where spanking comes into play, then I am inclined to believe that there are much deeper-rooted issues happening with the child...these issues could be family related, or specific to their own physical limitations (such as impaired motor function which results in lack of focus and often unruly behaviour)....

Just something to consider.

 

 

ANTI-spankers, someone can someone please come up with legit, usable answers for some of these moms that are struggling:

What are your "last resort" methods? I'll toss out some random stuff here. What do YOU do when your child...

Repeatedly pours juice all over the TV/couch/car/etc ?

 

             Only allow juice at the table.  Only allow water in the car.  Have child clean mess to the best of his or her ability.

Keeps running away from you in parking lots?

Go to parking lot. Practice over and over walking through parking lot holding hands.

Screams and hits you every time you're having a phone conversation?

Give child something special and interesting to do while I'm on the phone.  Politely tell other person I'll call them back when child is calmed down.

Kicks, pulls, screams, rolls on the floor, fights you EVERY morning while getting dressed for school?

Prepare child for the transition with a warning.  Give choices of outfits/ breakfast items.  Make a game out of it.

Despite repeated conversations, likes to pull the dog's tail and ears, or dumps the food into the water bowl?

Teach gentle touches.  Redirect attention again, because training is just that- lots of repetition. Give child a bowl of water at table and a handful of cereal or beans to dump in it.

There are hundreds of situations that trigger parents to spank, and those were just a few. Rather than touting yourselves as better people and calling spankers "child abusers", "unloving", "bad parents" or any of the other nasty things that have been said in this string, how about trying to offer them some actual workable help???

Camille - posted on 07/13/2009

Hey, Marta? Did you get the responses you were looking for?





I just about read every post on this topic and saw a lot of good back and forth action going on. It's got everything you'll ever need to know about spanking. Or not spanking. Good or bad, I think both sides had truth in them. I think it's safe to say, one's truth is not another's.





I have spanked and have chosen not to spank, and I have put my kids nose on the wall (time out) and all of these things has worked to a degree. But I found recently that adding chores works wonders for my 13 yr. old. There's nothing like manual labor. Pulling weeds for disrespect, raking the grass for not doing homework, things like that.





As for the little ones (6 and 4) throwing tantrums and being just plain uncontrollable, a bubble bath and a nap usually does it for them. And if that fails, let them cry for a bit before checking in to ask, "Are you done crying yet?" Usually, they get thristy and want something to drink and a reassuring hug.





I'm often surprised that even when they're making my day miserable, at the end of it they just want to be reassured just like we all do about where we stand with one another. They want to know dad and mom see them and love them. And for dad and mom, we want to know that they want for nothing and are happy growing boys.





I was spanked as a child and thought that it was the way it was supposed to be. But I have since learned that many of the things I thought were the 'right' things to do weren't things that I wanted to instill in my kids.





I found that the less energy you give a negative situation the better. You don't have to ignore it, you have to acknowledge it and defuse it as best you can without making it bigger then it needs to be. It works both ways. Catch your kids doing good and acknowledge it as much as you would something negative, in fact more so. It just depends on which way you want the energy to flow that's all.

Heather - posted on 07/13/2009

I believe spanking is sometimes necessary. I have a very strong-willed boy (he's now 12 and I no longer spank him) and when he was younger a light tap on the rump was what it took to get his attention. Still to this day, if I take a privilage away or take away toys, etc it does not phase him. When he was 6 he would not clean his room no matter how many times I asked or even if I went in to "help" him, I would end up being the one cleaning it. So, I packed up ALL of his things (except his bed and his dresser) and put them in the closet and nailed the door shut. When I was done, he sat on his bed, smiled and said "at least I don't have anything to mess up my room with and I don't have to pick it up." Now..for those of you who do not believe in spanking a child, what do you propose to do w/ defiant behavior like I just described, when nothing else works? Not every child needs to be disiplined by spanking, but there are some, like mine, who needs it to understand that their behavior has gone too far.

Anna - posted on 07/13/2009

Awesome comment, Karen - set expectations and follow through.



Common thread is clearly that every child and every parent is different and must make their own decisions. People have quoted bible verse, parents, books, websites, etc - but I'm sure we've all experienced a time where nothing we tried worked.



Lots of people, including Lisa Marie typing with a broken finger, have offered real life suggestions for what to do or try. (I wasn't saying that you were name-calling, but many in this string have been.) I do mostly agree with the theme of LM's comments - that YOU as the parent have the responsibility to make the right choices and dedicate any amount of your time necessary to your child to understand their needs and wants.



But as they grow up, our children will not be the center of anyone else's attention but ours. No one in the child's future except a parent, grandparent or close family member will stop the operation or flow of their entire world, workday, school day, etc - to solely focus on your child. So the choices we make should teach them how to make their own good choices at times where they DON'T have us to put them in a time out corner and discuss why they were misbehaving or analyze the root causes.



Glad to be part of the great, emotionally charged discussion.

Karen - posted on 07/13/2009

All discipline should be predictable. They should know what they are going to get, how much they will get, and when they are going to get it. I only ever gave one swat for an offense. If you say don't do ... or you'll get spanked - then you have to. Never discipline with anger. I've told my older kids that dad and I would discuss (in the case of grounding terms) and did so after my ire calmed down. This can lead to more reasonable punishment. Good luck. Don't let anyone let you think there is only one way either - every kid is different and family dynamics are a factor also.

Rachel - posted on 07/13/2009

Quoting Lisa Marie:

OK - I think my main point was that humans are violent - I read "Lord of The Flies" & lots of other books - THAT BEING SAID - this is all the MORE reason as a parent to steer AWAY from voilence & hitting your children, even lightly or as a last resort - Sorry no child is born devious or cruel - children are just that children, they need structure, discipline & direction in order to know how to behave - this is why human children are born dependent on their caregiver for their needs - No self discipline that works requires any pain it requires exactly what it is self-discipline & non-voilence has nothing to do with self inflicted pain either - Hitting a child weather in anger or "used right" as so many people are arguing can be done does only one thing - IT EVOKES our fight or flight response. THIS IS IT. It does nothing more. You are not even reaching the part of the brain that learns when you spank. WWJD? His main policy was non-voilence. Please come with a better argument than religion.

Please come up with a better argument than "IT EVOKES OUR FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE."

Seriously our grandparents and their grandparents never needed a book to tell them how to raise children and well that generation was'nt full of disrespectful children like the generation of today is. I believe thats because they never read a book from some wanker who proclaims to be a specialist in that field, they followed their INSTINCTS. Children were hit when they did wrong and were disrespectful to authourity of any kind that being parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, teachers and the law and well as i said have a look at that generation compared to this one and then tell me corporal punishment does'nt work. Have you ever asked yourself why back in those days we did'nt have gangs of young thugs walking around the streets thinking that the world owes them everything and they owe noone nothing???? It's because they were raised in this time were if you smack your child your seen as an abuser and not a disciplinarian, and that is what is wrong with todays society in my opinion.

I was beaten by my father as a child and so were my siblings and i mean beaten. He would hit, kick, punch and throw us around the house from one end to the other just because he felt like it, and not only with his hands, if he had something in his hand at the time he would hit us with whatever it was, and he would also sexualy assault my sister and i.THIS IS ABUSE AND I DONT THINK ANYONE CAN ARGUE WITH THAT. However my mother would only ever smack us if we pushed her past the point of no return and well my mother must of had the patience of a saint because she very rarely had to hit any of us for anything because we were all taught BY HER that she was our mother and our boss and we had to do what she told us because we were not adults and could not make important decisions for ourselves their for her rules are our laws just like the laws of the police that they have to follow. So in actual fact i was abused on the one hand with being hit but yet i was disciplined lovingly on the other hand by my mother when she would hit and she never hit us unless she had told us more than once to stop doing something and i can assure you every smack i ever got of my mother i deserved for one reason or another. And you no what, the way my mother used smacking  never ever EVOKED MY FIGHT OR MY FLIGHT RESPONSE IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, HOWEVER WHAT MY FATHER DID IT EVOKED A LOT MORE. So i'll leave religion out of it because well i dont believe in god at all, so from someone who has experienced  physical, mental,sexual and emotional abuse from one parent who had no idea how to use spankings in the right way, but was spanked by the other parent who used spankings to give us a little bit of a shock or to put fear in us about something that could potentialy harm or kill us, then take it from me spanking a child can be effective if used in the right way. I had the extreme on one hand and the loving on the other and yet i still choose to raise my children with spankings when and if they need it and i have never ever crossed that line with my kids becasue they dont get hit hard i use a more a pushing motion to quickly snap them out of the their little attitude.

I am a social worker and let me tell you, a lot of the kids that i am helping at the moment are from homes were the parents dont agree with spanking at all and these are the kids that are the leaders of their gangs  who bash people everyday for a pair of shoes and who have been in and out of detention centres their entire lives, now a lot of their parents work great jobs they own their own homes, have great educations and these kids dont want for anything and never have they have always had the best of the best and had it handed to them on a silver platter. There are other children who have been abused by their parents who are out there working their asses off not running the streets in gangs or whatever. Now i have seen both sides to both types of kids i have seen the ones who come from bad homes were they were spanked for every little thing that they do and yes i have seen these kids in gangs and i have seen the kids that come from good homes who have never been spanked turn into little gems as well so really you cant say what works best as different ways effect different people/children.

Spanking- can cause a child to act out and be disrepectful and fearfull, but it can also cause a child to snap out of it and be respectful and not fearfull

Time outs- can cause a child to act out and be direspectful and fearfull, but it can also cause a child to snap out of it and be respectful and not fearfull

mmmmm wonder how 2 things that are looked at as different can cause the same effect in different people/children????  

Melissa - posted on 07/13/2009

i will discipline my child as i see fit!!!!! so if it requires a smack to his bottom then so be it.....my son my only be 14 months but he knows ( for the most part) where he can go when he is outside( of course we are out there with him) but he walked into the street ONCE and well lets say he never did it again.

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/13/2009

Marta - the Bible says so many things - just because it says something in the Bible doesn't mean it's right - smacking your kids is wrong. It may be your solution but it doesn't mean it's right & it is not a loving gesture

Deborah - posted on 07/13/2009

I agree with you. The bible says spare the rod, spoil the child. And I know that God chastises us from time to time..I was spanked as a child and a teen. Im thankful for those spankings because I know my mom and dad went through something that wasnt very pleasant to them either, to let me know how much they loved me and I respect them for teaching me right from wrong...I definately agree with spanking..If they push and push at some point you have to push back. Usually a time out or taken away of priveledges or toys never work for long at the toddler age. It doesnt have a lasting impression with them. IF so noone would have to consider spanking. I belive that there is a very visible line between spanking and abuse, and if you dont cross that line, It shows that you do it out of love trying to train them in the way that is right for them..as the bible says:)

Angi - posted on 07/13/2009

I have a teenager who is on the autsuim spectrem disorder . When he was young we didnt know and we both were spanked as kids! I tried it on him and he jsut dindnt get it he seemed to do better with time out takeing toys puting them in time out box ect.. There as been times and though i can only count less than 10 in 16yrs he has really got a good old fashion ass busting like are parents did us and it nve killed me! So I do belive in spaking when nothing else works or you need to get a point acrosss IMEDITATLY I have never thought twice about a trip to the bathroom eaither if needed. I dont really belive in Embarsing in public . NOt to metion these days there usaly some one who sticks there nose in it. So there is my opion not much diffrent than some pepole.

Marta - posted on 07/13/2009

So I found the scripture where it actually says spare the rod it's Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth the rod hateth his sonL but he that loveth him chaseneth him betimes.

Jodie - posted on 07/13/2009

Quoting Heidi:

Spat on the butt or hand is not abuse. whipped with a belt is going a little to far i think. But I also think that maybe if more ppl in this socity would have gave their children a little spat now and then we would not have children, teens, young adults acting the way they do. A little harsher up bringing.

i agree totally, if a child is disobedient and will not stop misbehaving aftar being told to stop many times then a little tap on the hand will not hurt its showing them who is in charge and that the bad behavior is not tolerated i do this with my 2yr old and sh rarely needs it and its vice versa with her good behaviour she is rewarded, just because some parents spank/smack their kids it doesnt make them all child beaters at all!! i love my children and would not hurt them in anyway, kids sumtimes need tough love.

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/13/2009

OK - I think my main point was that humans are violent - I read "Lord of The Flies" & lots of other books - THAT BEING SAID - this is all the MORE reason as a parent to steer AWAY from voilence & hitting your children, even lightly or as a last resort - Sorry no child is born devious or cruel - children are just that children, they need structure, discipline & direction in order to know how to behave - this is why human children are born dependent on their caregiver for their needs - No self discipline that works requires any pain it requires exactly what it is self-discipline & non-voilence has nothing to do with self inflicted pain either - Hitting a child weather in anger or "used right" as so many people are arguing can be done does only one thing - IT EVOKES our fight or flight response. THIS IS IT. It does nothing more. You are not even reaching the part of the brain that learns when you spank. WWJD? His main policy was non-voilence. Please come with a better argument than religion.

Mindy - posted on 07/13/2009

I think that spanking if you used right is good,. some kids just need it. some kids go good with timeout. but my kids are 9 and younger and I like to take things they like from then when they are bad. kids need help to learn to be good people. that what we are here for.

Mindy - posted on 07/13/2009

I think that spanking if you used right is good,. some kids just need it. some kids go good with timeout. but my kids are 9 and younger and I like to take things they like from then when they are bad. kids need help to learn to be good people. that what we are here for.

Mindy - posted on 07/13/2009

I think that spanking if you used right is good,. some kids just need it. some kids go good with timeout. but my kids are 9 and younger and I like to take things they like from then when they are bad. kids need help to learn to be good people. that what we are here for.

Rebekka - posted on 07/13/2009

Quoting Lisa Marie:

Spanking is not always abuse. HOWEVER - spanking is violence weather done in anger or not. It envokes a fight or flight response this is why it appears to "work" It is not the LOGICAL way to handle any situation. You can't go to work & start smacking people when they don't act the way you would want them to. Why would you think it was ok to go around smacking your kids to "get their attention" or "as a last resort" when you can't do that anywhere else in life but maybe a boxing ring? In a boxing ring those people agreed to the situation first - your child didn't ask to be born, you brought them into this world & they deserve more respect than to be smacked just so you can get the response you want out of them. Notice I said smacked not beaten. Lots of people have spent so much time in their posts trying to explain they don't beat their kids, I'm not talking about beatings. If you want respect from your children then give them the respect they deserve, don't smack them. The Bible, how your parents raised you or "that it works" doesn't make it right either. You will do what ever you want in the privacy of your home but lots of people do things in the privacy of their home that are not right. Also, just because a parent doesn't smack their kids doesn't mean that they have crazy out of control kids. If we all want the "best" for our kids then the "best" is that they NOT be smacked or hit or swatted or tapped or whatever other word that you want to use. Don't you want your children to have the best? Your children are the most prescious gift you could recieve in life. Some people spend their entire adult life all kids or money & proceedures trying to achieve what you have, respect that. Also, smacking is not discipline it is punishment those are totaly different things. You do have alternatives parents - it's up to you to empower yourself to find them or keep on finding ways to justify smacking your kids - this debate is not for those of us who won't smack our kids because you are not going to change our minds, I'm never going to smack my kids. This debate was started by a parent who smacks her kids. She wanted back up from other parents who smack their kids.. most of the mom's who smack their kids are going to keep on doing it. I just ask those mom's the next time you feel you "have" to smack your kids how about giving yourself a time out - change how you are looking at the situation & the situation will change. Open up your mind & realize their is a better way... no I am not saying do not discipline your kids - just don't smack them.

Humans are not and have never been "non violent". You will notice that many non-violent groups tend to involve themselves in some sort of self diciplining rituals that involves pain.....

Sometimes the spoken or written word is more violent and scarring than anything else imaginable. Most people who use the Bible as an excuse to hit their kids all the time don't actually know what  is written therein. Sometimes a child is born with a brutal, devious and cruel  spirit - I have seen it before, happen to wonderfully attentive, caring parents who do not spank or speak harshly to their children..... sometimes a child like this is this way just because it is, and no amount postulating about the situation is going to change it. Unless the child has some sort of disability that makes it this way (and it would be  very obvious to any parent that spanked this sort of child that it will not work on any level anyway) spanking might just be the thing that saves a child like this from itself. All parents want their children to have a future and a productive life, and most christian parents want their children to have eternal life. Therein lies the anguish that "spanking" parents usually experience about this issue. Lord of the Flies is a good book to read to peek into the nature of some if not most regular people. Tipping the balance for the sake of the greater human good by steering a child correctly by teaching it to control itself so that the law will not have to do it in the future (with the odd spanking if really called for) is in the better interest of human kind.

Moderation is always a good tool to employ, and yes most people agree that spanking is no fun and should be avoided unless necessary. The parents who experience continually extreme behaviour in their children obviously need to address it as creativly as possible, and one often finds their NO becomes a YES after enough nagging or tantrum throwing! Spanking will obviously mean only one thing to a child like this - another battle of wills  to " endure" until the inevitable Yes comes their way....

Rachel - posted on 07/13/2009

Quoting Sharon:

For me, a swat on the butt or slap on the hand is situational. I don't always need to resort to that method of dicipline. My 4 year old son can be very defiant and downright disrespectful at times. I won't put up with his behavior. If I place him in time out or in his room, he simply does not stay put. A stern tone of voice doesn't always cut it. Half the time he laughs in my face and does just the opposite. A spank on the butt (always over clothes) will often reinforce that I mean business, and it is effective. It works for my son.

Please don't judge other parenting styles or imply that just because I do spank or slap a hand that I don't love my child. Don't imply that because I do chose to spank or slap a hand that I beat my kid. Please don't imply that because I do chose to spank or slap a hand, that my child is going to turn out to become a hateful and criminal adult. Please don't imply that because you do not spank or slap a hand, that you are a superior parent. How I parent & dicipline my child is my business. I would never dare tell any of you how to parent & dicipline your child.

Sharon,

I couldn't agree with you more! You took the words straight from my head lol

Yolonda - posted on 07/13/2009

I spank my children and will continue to do so. I love them and I believe what the word of God says. If you don't believe in it don't do it; if you do, do it. It is that simple. We use this method when we have to spank: I let them know that they were disobedient by doing ... I ask them what happens when we are disobedient... I tell them that they are getting disciplined because of their disobedience...they get three taps with the "rod"... I express my forgiveness to them of their disobedience and let them know that it is ultimately God they need to ask for forgiveness... I lead them in prayer and then pray for them a little like this, "Father God, I ask the you would help "child's name" to be obedient to your word. Allow them to realize that it is You who they need to submit to. I thank you that you are teaching "child's name" to be obedient. And I thank you that they are learning obedience. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen"
My children are not perfect, no one is. They appreciate the love that is in my home. My dad commented about the "rod" I use to discipline, and my 6 year old chimed in and I quote, "She disciplines with love." I don't expect everyone to agree with everything that we do in our home; it is not people that we strive to please. It is what we do for God that lasts.

My point is, anytime you bring up such a debatable subject you'll get just that. It should be beyond people to insult and bad mouth others for what they do or do not do. Let us leave this in the homes for the parents to decide to do or not to do based on their family preferences.

Melissa - posted on 07/13/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Marta:

So, here's a question for all of the anti-spanking moms: when time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, you've taken away all of their priveleges, you've counted to three, you've given them three chances, you've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what do you do? I want an honest answer none of this read this book or that guide/article but a straight honest answer for a straight and honest question!

I would not spank my child even if I had exhausted all other forms of discipline.  I believe that if non-physical forms of discipline are no longer effective then the child's behaviour has become much more complex.  Spanking a child does not guarantee the desired behaviour parents are seeking with the punishment, and although some parents believe that it is effective, I very much doubt that parents would condone physical discipline of their child by anyone else (and if spanking is all that works, how then should others be expected to discipline them?)

Here's a question for the die-hard spanking moms:

When your child is at school and time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, the teacher has taken away all of their privileges, they've counted to three, they've given them three chances, they've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what does the teacher do?  I'm going to guess that the answer is "NOT spank the child".... 

 

No that is when parenting comes in.  Teachers and other adults should not spank, if it is to be done that is the job of a PARENT.    In this case the parents should be called and brought in when all other avenues are exhausted.  Then parents should deciede what the proper punishment is.

I give my children a choice of being grounded for a day or two from the TV and things, a spanking, or to give up there favorite toys for a time, or to pick up extra chores for the rest of the week.

My son will always give up a toy and take the chores.  He is 7 and yes he was spanked as a 3-5 year old when he did not understand the differences between his choices.

My daughter who will be 10 ALWAYS chooses the spankings, she wants to have her punishment over and appoligize and be done with it.

This is always done after a cool off period for myself and the kids sent to their rooms to think about what they have done.  Not really a time out, as I think that is for small children, but a reflection time.  We discuss and then figure a punishment together to fit the situation. 

But yes I am a "diehard" spank mom until my situation calls for something different.  And I reevaluate each situation as its own.  Spanking does not make me feel good, but it does help me raise my children to be polite and respectful.

Jenniefer - posted on 07/13/2009

there are no bad kids, just bad parents. When they start getting out of control its because they cant stop themselves....a rolling ball thing. When my son was three or so he looked up at me after a swat and said "Mommy, i dont like it when you hit me" and that opened up a door for a talk about boundaries. I told him that I only hit him because he would not listen and it was my last resort. We made a deal about that and i didnt ever have to hit him again. (well I did but thats another story.) We all feel like we cannot control the little darlings sometimes and I am a believer in the "pay attention" swat on the butt. I dont think that it actually helps though. My daughter is the kid who deeply feels wrongs and will not respond unless she is apologized to first. I was the recipient of a few paddlings as a kid and the emotions that i felt afterwards never left me. I never want my kids to feel powerless, or unable to articulate their feelings and so If I treat them respectfully and dont internalize their behaviour as MY thing then we can all think about other responses to wild acting. Its horrible when you see a little one with hard eyes, daring you to do it again, and I feel so bad for those kids. I try to use empathy when it comes down to the wire, I know how it feels to be on the spankee end, and I know how i feel when I am the spanker...its a hard debate. I think that there is no right or wrong answer, if we are adults and have control of ourselves then there is never a reason to lose it with the kids. Luckily for all of us, there are exceptions to every rule!

Darby - posted on 07/13/2009

I certainly believe in spanking...only when absolutely necessary. My oldest daughter (10 years old now) hasn't needed a spanking since she was about 5 years old. My two year old daughter gets spanked but not very often. I'm sure my son will do something to warrant it, but he is only almost 10 months old right now so it'll be a while.

Heidi - posted on 07/13/2009

Spat on the butt or hand is not abuse. whipped with a belt is going a little to far i think. But I also think that maybe if more ppl in this socity would have gave their children a little spat now and then we would not have children, teens, young adults acting the way they do. A little harsher up bringing.

Marta - posted on 07/13/2009

Quoting Crystal:

BTW: what do I do instead of spank?
Philippians 2:14 jar ("Do all things without grumbling or complaining") If they "forget" this verse, they have to put a nickel in the jar. When full, the jar goes to someone who has less than we do: food bank, charity, Compassion International child we sponsor. Since the kids each get only $1 a week for allowance, with 10% long term savings and 10% to church, this gets painful quickly. However, my oldest has argued,complained and griped about having to put the nickel in and ended up putting 40 cents in at one time! The next time I told him to put in a nickel, he did! I like this consequence because it is enforceable. If the child refuses to put the required $ in the jar, I simply take it out of his allowance the next week.

Other consequenses: losing computer and TV time. Extra school work (we homeschool). They have to leave the area until they are ready to be more pleasant. Extra chores. Certain chores (caring for the animals) need to be done before meals ("If a man will not work, neither let him eat.") If the chore isn't done, he doesn't get to eat. (I've never had a child miss a meal!)

I know there is more, but I think I'm too tired to think of them right now. Hope this helps someone! :)

We'll keep this in mind for when they get older right now they're too young to be expected to remember a verse, or principle, from the bible let alone for an allowance. Thank you.

Marta - posted on 07/13/2009

My main motivation for this post is simply that I'm a young mom and frankly, having mommy friends doesn't come very easily for me (I was 17 when I had my first and most women nowadays wait until they're in their 30's to have children)since everyone with children my kids' ages are much older than I and tend to convey the attitude that they think I'm just some dumb girl who got herself knocked up a few times (lol which is far from the truth that was the situation with my first since then I've grown, gotten married, worked a FT job and went to school etc) which leaves me to seek advice from my mom who believes in a firm word and a swift spank so there really isn't much of a diversity of opinions there. I appreciate everyone's input (even those who were excessivily judgemental) and especially that of those who were insightful enough to read in between the lines-so to speak. To clarify my 3 yr old has grown out of the need (for the most part) for spankings and can now be reminded by asking him if he thinks something is a good idea whereas my 2 yr old son is bull headed like me and dad and doesn't give in very easily so we've stopped trying to get through to him by taking things away he now gets one time out (his warning) and if the bad behaviour continues then he gets a firm swat...if I'm the one dealing the spanking it's generally one swat if it's my hubby (rarely since he doesn't get home until supper time) it's usually 3 swats. unless it's a dangerous behaviour and we forgo the time-out all together. I've never done the ear pull and I don't really care to since the ear is such a delicate part of the body the butt not so much. But, hey if it works for you great; my husband has done it once or twice to the boys. As far as our daughter is concerned she's only 2.5 months so she doesn't require discipline but when she does we'll test all of the methods with her to see what works best for her if she's like the boys and needs spanked then that's what we'll do if she has a better temperment then we'll use whatever method proved most effective.

Torie - posted on 07/13/2009

I'm not opposed to spanking, unless it's used to punish something ridiculous. I did find that the girls responded much better to distraction as younger toddlers and choices as older children. Make sure the choices you offer are reasonable, sane and acceptable to both parties. "If you don't stop that, I'll rip your arms off.? Not choices. "Stop it and go do....., or don't stop and I'll show you to your room where you can spend a few minutes thinking about it..." Those are options that are reasonable and acceptable. I also would give them the reprimand, give options and count to three. I've never made it to three. You HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT AND PERSISTENT, BUT CALM. If they don't believe you or trust you to do what you say then you're done for good. Oh, and the earlobe. Inflicts a little bit of pain, gets their attention and leaves no marks. Easy on the squeeze, it doesn't take much. AGAIN, CONSISTENCY!!! Mean what you say and say what you really mean, especially when they're young.

Rebekka - posted on 07/13/2009

Hi Marta.

I don't like to spank a two year old. they are really still learning so much and don't really understand. Having said that though, I admit to having spanked my 1st daughter at the age of almost 3 for the first time (up until then, a stern word or a tap on the hand had worked) she had taken to kicking me and I smacked her on her leg after warning her repeatedly that kicking would result in a smack. It worked and for the most part she was only smacked on the buttocks or the hands if really very naughty (like deliberately hurting someone else or throwing something at someone) which was not often. THere was a short stage however, when she became completely out of control during my divorce from her father. I had to keep her under control for her own safetly - she would run into the road or something to "test" me and get some sort of emotional response ( I had become rather dull due to the inner turmoil, and she was just acting out, but I felt that a smack on the bottom was in order to draw a proverbial line for her own safetly) Her brother was very good, and only recieved a smack if joining in her "anticks" which only happened occaisonally after the age of 4. By the time she was 5 almost never lifted my hand. My next daughter was born then, and learned some really good behaviour from the older two and as a result I did not even need to discipline her! she is still a little angel. My youngest however (now 2 and a half) recieved her 1st smack just the other day... guess what - she also thinks it really funny to kick me! She got a big fright and chastised me for doing so, but when I explained that she hurt me too by kicking me in the tummy, she understood and has not tried that again. My kids are really sweet and not "naughty" in the conventional sense, but biting, kicking and pinching etc ( I suppose they see other kids do it and want to immitate or just find it funny on some level) is something I don't tolerate. My philosophy is that if they hurt me, I will hurt them back so that they can understand what actions bring about what consequenses. I obviously don't hit them hard though, and the action is normally more of a shock than the sting of the smack.



So in my opinion, all kids are different, and this has been proved by my four who have all recieve the same parenting style, same amount of attention and dedication and love, and nutrition etc. Barring the time my older two were put out by the divorce, they hardly ever needed a smack! I know some people would say that at that precise time smacking should not occur, but go through it and see how kids respond to the insecurities... they find ways to assertain just how dedicated you are to your points of view, and how far they can push you and manipulate you. It seemed to be a kind of a test on their part to establish how much they can rely on my consistancy and my own convictions. Once the boundries are established, provided you don't move the goal posts, the children are happier and free-er to be who they are cause they know exactly who you are and trust you because you are predictable. So that is my case "For" smacking.

One word of caution however... it is very easy to fall into a trap of "smacking" when you are frustrated or angry about something else, and kids tend to be the "snapping" factor. It is always better to send them to the bathroom or bedroom or whatever (I make it different places) and take a moment to collect yourself, then discuss the issue and only smack if you see the child has an obstinate attitude and will not hear reason (perhaps they need to appologise to a sibling for something)



When I have lashed out (no one is perfect) then I have felt convicted immediately and will appologise profusely for my disgracefull action of smacking without thought and love. I must say this has happened only three times, and my childrens' absolute forgiveness and humble attitude about it have hauted me for months and months afterwards and made me very bad and caused me to be very careful and more gentle with my approach - see we can learn a lot from our own offspring!



I do believe that smacking should not be necessary after the age of normal cognitave reasoning ability. by then the children should know what is right and wrong, and for a 9 or 10 year old to get a smack, I think there is something wrong with what has gone before. I would not hit a teenager for verbal disrespect, I think that taking away what they want most - their freedom will hurt them more and make them think twice the next time. Also, you cannot actually hope to control their thoughts and what they say, other than how they behave under your space. If my kids feel enough hatred towards me to speak badly to me, I will be very dissappointed in myself for not showing them enough love for them to have learned from me how to respect another person. ( I dont consider a 5 or 6 year old an equal, but from 10 - 12 years old kids are pretty mature and will start putting the puzzle of life together in their own minds, regardless of how you see it or enforce it) If they have developed a good concience they will in all likelyhood use it!



I am not a "trigger- happy smacker" :)

Jamie - posted on 07/13/2009

I actually agree with you! As long as there is good reason go for it. I personally believe that children seem to have much more disobedience towards there parents because they dont get spanked.

Eloise - posted on 07/13/2009

I have nothing against spanking and nothing against not spanking...all kids are different! Some are more challenging than others...some kids take authority by word, others take authority by action. You know your own child and how far he/she will push you for either a positive or negative reaction...as long as you remember YOU are the adult and the child is the child! if the child only gets attention when something is done wrong then he/she will test you consistently in this aspect!!! It is very important to give attention and pay attention when good things are done or something good is accomplished as well. A child cannot always comprehend between right and wrong so it will test situations over and over, again and again...that is why consistency is crucial. If you warn and warn, take time out or then tap/spank the child will gradually memorise this pattern in any situation! If two warnings doesnt work there has to be a third action...a sociable child will feel left out in the time out corner so this will work, a child that can keep him/herself busy in the time out corner will not take this situation seriously. A parents job is still to look out for the kid. If a kid is potentially putting itself in a dangerous situation you need to think ahead for the child's sake and make sure there would be enough warning time. This is just my personal opinion but these days people seem to think children should be talked to and treated as if they were adults...they are not!!! By treating your child as an adult you complicate his/her life with answers that have no real emotion from the child connected to them. Children will grow up and live their lives as adults...to make life easier for your child when it reaches adulthood you need to teach him/her respect in the best age appropriate way possible. The impact you are making will always reflect on your child - there is no such thing as a baby born bad.

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/13/2009

OK - First about being judgemental because I said the person who started this was not looking for answers I am being judged because you believe I have never been in your situation - WRONG - I have helped raising unrully children & never had to spank EVER -

For the questions you ask



ANTI-spankers, someone can someone please come up with legit, usable answers for some of these moms that are struggling:







What are your "last resort" methods? I'll toss out some random stuff here. What do YOU do when your child...







Repeatedly pours juice all over the TV/couch/car/etc ? Find out why they are spilling the juice - is it a game to them? Take time with your child, everyone is an individual - kids have REASONS they do things - pay attention to your kid, yes the house needs cleaned, you are trying to be as productive as possible but raising your child is THE MOST important thing you have to do ALL THE TIME - Stop, take a time out for YOURSELF & figure out WHY your child is doing what you don't want to - ASK them if they are old enough to answer







Keeps running away from you in parking lots? OK this has never been a problem for me because ANY time I have a child in a parking lot or near cars - ANYTIME I have more than one KID near a parking lot or cars they held hands, an adults hands. ALL THE TIME EVERY TIME No exception till they were 12 to 14 years old - having helped raised my little sister I STILL hold her hand at times crossing roads or parking lots & she is 20 - NO EXCEPTION to this - it is YOUR JOB as a parent to make sure your child is safe & it is their job to help you keep them safe by holding your hand.







Screams and hits you every time you're having a phone conversation? STOP get off the phone & address your child - NOTHING you are talking about on the phone is more important than your child unless you are calling 911- address their behavior & find out WHY they are doing it - YOUR child is hitting you? wonder where they might have learned that hitting was acceptable?







Kicks, pulls, screams, rolls on the floor, fights you EVERY morning while getting dressed for school? You are the adult - get up earlier, take the time to take time with your kids so it's not rushed - ask them if they are old enough WHY they are behaving this way, make a game out of getting dressed, TAKE TIME WITH YOUR KIDS - NOTHING is more important than they are - find an an swer a solution OTHER than smacking - THIS AGAIN is no reason to smack - if a child is throwing a temper tantrum find out why - smacking a kid when they are in that mode is only going to put them into a fight or flight response, why would you want your child to learn to live in fear? Stop take the time to teach them correctly how to deal with their frustration, anger & feelings







Despite repeated conversations, likes to pull the dog's tail and ears, or dumps the food into the water bowl? AGAIN - TAKE TIME with your kid & find out why they are doing it - if it is just for fun find something they will enjoy more & don't put your poor dog in a situation that is unsafe for them if the child can not understand how to treat your animal







There are hundreds of situations that trigger parents to spank, and those were just a few. Rather than touting yourselves as better people and calling spankers "child abusers", "unloving", "bad parents" or any of the other nasty things that have been said in this string, how about trying to offer them some actual workable help???



I also have SEVERAL posts where I advised to read a book called "Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline" By Becky Bailey - IF I DIDN'T CARE ABOUT GIVING ACTUAL WORKABLE HELP I WOULDN"T BE TYPING WITH A BROKEN FINGER - I also never said any parents were unloving abusers or bad parents - I simply said that WE ALL WANT THE BEST FOR OUR KIDS. Hitting them is NOT THE BEST - Parents if you want to stop hitting your kids then just do it - Their is no magic - It's just a choice. Make it not a thing you will do & you won't need to do it - EVER - Your kids are worth all of your time - every second you put into disciplining them with love & not scare tactics will wind up more productive than you could imagine - You don't have to believe me because most of you don't - their are more posts from parents who hit than those of us who don't BUT if one person can make it work isn't their a possibility you could make it work for you? NO- I am not & never have written that if you hit your child you are the worst parent ever or that your child is scarred for life - just saying one less child hit one less time would be a better thing

Bridget - posted on 07/13/2009

This is really hard to read all this hitting kids. But i guess it how you were brought up and you do the same. You alway said i will never be like my parents and then you find your self doing the same things. Its hard to change really. We were never hit as kids and we are all fine.I have asked my mother why we were never hit and she said she was never hit. My mother has 11 bother and sister, and none in prision or trouble with the law. It alway seem the children in trouble have violent home lifes.

Nicole - posted on 07/12/2009

I'm a first time mum with a 3 week old. I've given this some thought in the past and I'm still undecided.



Intellectually, I really don't like the idea of smacking as it teaches children that violence is an appropriate or acceptable response. In reality, I was smacked once or twice as a child when I got totally out of control and it didn't do any harm.



I'm going to try to manage without smacking, but if all else fails, I'm not ruling it out completely (as much as I hate to say that).

Mellody - posted on 07/12/2009

Earlier I posted my opinion on the apparently Taboo subject of spanking versus non-spanking. I did not (as it was pointed out by another poster, of just about everyone) actually reply to the question. What to do when all else fails and spanking no longer works? Honestly I have no idea. At that point, obviously if your child doesn’t respond to verbal correction of what ever sort, the loss of privileges, and spanking then you need to find some way of controlling you child.



The last thing I would ever want to see is a child drugged for no reason. However a lot of parents turn to things like Ritalin to calm they’re out of control children. Kids with high energy and the lack of ability or rather want - to pay attention are all of a sudden labelled with ADD and the like. (Obviously this isn’t so in every case and I respect that some children really do need this kind of treatment) But I see a lot of dare I say Lazy parents resorting to drugs when they are “sick of dealing with their kids”. Why? Kids don’t need to be drugged. They need a serious structured life. They need they’re parents to be dedicated to solving the issues of their disobedience.



Perhaps what you need to try when all else fails is to go back to the beginning and try again. Start treating the situation as if you’re teaching a baby again. And work your way from there. Perhaps if they are shown again with persistence and patients then they can learn how to properly behave.

Older children don’t want to be treated like a baby, maybe if they see and understand that that’s what your doing then they will make an effort to not act like one and therefore not be treated like one.

Some parents may say that that would humiliate the child, and manipulate them. But if they are figuring it out on their own then they aren’t being humiliated or manipulated. And so, wont feel as though they are.



I also understand that not every child that is non responsive to a parent is the product of Lazy parenting, but it seems that a lot of parents with “bad” children have given up on the situation. How can a child learn to behave properly when a parent doesn’t show them right from wrong? (I am not calling anyone here a lazy parent; I am only showing my opinion and observations. I don’t know you and therefore can’t pass judgment)



I don’t know how I will be, as my daughter is only 6 months old, but I can only hope that I can be patient and persistent and be what my daughter needs me to be.

I wish everyone with rowdy children the best of luck, and hope that they find a way to pull them in and get them on track. Because I can only off that when it comes to serious advice! Haha.



On another note. Speaking of not passing judgement, I think that a few of the moms on here need to practice what they preach. Saying that they don’t think they should pass judgement and then make attacks at other moms, calling them abusive, saying we don’t love our children if we spank them, saying we scare our children into good behaviour, and in one case- have lack of education because we cant find other ways of disciplining our children.

Petty statements like that show a closed mind. When you say you never had a child that needed to be spanked and therefore all children need not be spanked, but then state that you understand that not all children respond to non-punitive punishments, you are being a hypocrite.

If you are against physical correction, good for you. but just because you are, doesn’t make those who aren’t bad people.



We are not stupid, we Love our children we do not abuse them and we do not purposefully scare them into good behaviour.

Mellody - posted on 07/12/2009

Earlier I posted my opinion on the apparently Taboo subject of spanking versus non-spanking. I did not (as it was pointed out by another poster, of just about everyone) actually reply to the question. What to do when all else fails and spanking no longer works? Honestly I have no idea. At that point, obviously if your child doesn’t respond to verbal correction of what ever sort, the loss of privileges, and spanking then you need to find some way of controlling you child.



The last thing I would ever want to see is a child drugged for no reason. However a lot of parents turn to things like Ritalin to calm they’re out of control children. Kids with high energy and the lack of ability or rather want - to pay attention are all of a sudden labelled with ADD and the like. (Obviously this isn’t so in every case and I respect that some children really do need this kind of treatment) But I see a lot of dare I say Lazy parents resorting to drugs when they are “sick of dealing with their kids”. Why? Kids don’t need to be drugged. They need a serious structured life. They need they’re parents to be dedicated to solving the issues of their disobedience.



Perhaps what you need to try when all else fails is to go back to the beginning and try again. Start treating the situation as if you’re teaching a baby again. And work your way from there. Perhaps if they are shown again with persistence and patients then they can learn how to properly behave.

Older children don’t want to be treated like a baby, maybe if they see and understand that that’s what your doing then they will make an effort to not act like one and therefore not be treated like one.

Some parents may say that that would humiliate the child, and manipulate them. But if they are figuring it out on their own then they aren’t being humiliated or manipulated. And so, wont feel as though they are.



I also understand that not every child that is non responsive to a parent is the product of Lazy parenting, but it seems that a lot of parents with “bad” children have given up on the situation. How can a child learn to behave properly when a parent doesn’t show them right from wrong? (I am not calling anyone here a lazy parent; I am only showing my opinion and observations. I don’t know you and therefore can’t pass judgment)



I don’t know how I will be, as my daughter is only 6 months old, but I can only hope that I can be patient and persistent and be what my daughter needs me to be.

I wish everyone with rowdy children the best of luck, and hope that they find a way to pull them in and get them on track. Because I can only off that when it comes to serious advice! Haha.



On another note. Speaking of not passing judgement, I think that a few of the moms on here need to practice what they preach. Saying that they don’t think they should pass judgement and then make attacks at other moms, calling them abusive, saying we don’t love our children if we spank them, saying we scare our children into good behaviour, and in one case- have lack of education because we cant find other ways of disciplining our children.

Petty statements like that show a closed mind. When you say you never had a child that needed to be spanked and therefore all children need not be spanked, but then state that you understand that not all children respond to non-punitive punishments, you are being a hypocrite.

If you are against physical correction, good for you. but just because you are, doesn’t make those who aren’t bad people.



We are not stupid, we Love our children we do not abuse them and we do not purposefully scare them into good behaviour.

Sarah - posted on 07/12/2009

I was always spanked as a child when I crossed the line. And it did not hurt my ego, I dont hate my parents, Im not emotionaly wounded and I was not afraid to have my own opinions as a child. I think it is perfectly ok to spank a child when you have tried everything else. I have a 5 month old daughter, and when she gets to the age where misbehavin is appealing to her, you better believe shes gunna get a tap on the butt to let her know mommy means business.

There is a fine line between spanking and abuse, and as many others have stated on here, little kids dont always understand the concept of a time out or whatever else you may think up as a punishment. I dont think its going to scar my daughter for life or even affect her in any way for that matter other then letting her know enough is enough and her behaviour is unacceptable.

As for those who argue the fact " ur teaching them its ok to hit when your angry" I was spanked and never ever in my life had the misconception that it was ok to hit people when they made me angry. I always knew why I was being spanked and it made me listen.

I think kids are much more disrespectful these days because the rights of a parent to raise and disipline are being taken away and all the power is being put into the childs hand. A child learns very quickly how to munipulate and these days its made very easy for them to do so. I dont care how many people frown upon my form of disipline...Im going to spank if the need arises and Ill be damn proud of the job Im doing.

Anna - posted on 07/12/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Marta:

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Marta:

So, here's a question for all of the anti-spanking moms: when time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, you've taken away all of their priveleges, you've counted to three, you've given them three chances, you've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what do you do? I want an honest answer none of this read this book or that guide/article but a straight honest answer for a straight and honest question!

I would not spank my child even if I had exhausted all other forms of discipline.  I believe that if non-physical forms of discipline are no longer effective then the child's behaviour has become much more complex.  Spanking a child does not guarantee the desired behaviour parents are seeking with the punishment, and although some parents believe that it is effective, I very much doubt that parents would condone physical discipline of their child by anyone else (and if spanking is all that works, how then should others be expected to discipline them?)

Here's a question for the die-hard spanking moms:

When your child is at school and time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, the teacher has taken away all of their privileges, they've counted to three, they've given them three chances, they've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what does the teacher do?  I'm going to guess that the answer is "NOT spank the child".... 

 

No, the teacher would not spank they would call mom and dad and the child would be sent home. To get back on track you didn't answer my question what else can be done when the well known solutions have been exhausted?

I am on track...I answered your question.  You asked "then what do you do?"...and I said "I would not spank my child even if I had exhausted all other forms of discipline".  If you are speaking in general terms, then the question cannot be subjectively posed to each individual poster and rather you must ask in a broader sense what measures can be taken to find out what makes a child so seeminly unphased by disciplinary techniques that are proven to be extremely effective for many and most children.  Only then can you begin to look at other possibilities as forms of punishment.  Parents that use spanking always follow it up with "it's the only thing that works"...but if you look at how damaging that statement is to many other situations throughout life, you might begin to understand why there is such a stigma surrounding the action and furthermore why parents that do spank feel such a strong urge to constantly justify their actions, rather than speak confidently about their decision to spank their kids.

Just as an example.  I remember talking with an old co-worker about her Son getting into trouble at school because he was disrupting the class during lessons.  My co-worker tried every thing possible that she knew to discipline her Son to no avail, until she took him to the doctor and found out that he needed glasses and the reason for his disruption of the class was his impaired motor function when trying to concentrate on a work lesson, but not being able to see....had she spanked her Son to discipline his behaviour and continued to do so to "get her point across", she might not have taken the suggestions of her friends to have her Son tested for ADD.  He doesn't have ADD, but in testing him the doctor was able to uncover his problem.  This is what I mean when I am talking about children being resistant to all other forms of discipline and becoming deviant to the point where parents feel that spanking is the only option.  If children reach the point where spanking comes into play, then I am inclined to believe that there are much deeper-rooted issues happening with the child...these issues could be family related, or specific to their own physical limitations (such as impaired motor function which results in lack of focus and often unruly behaviour)....

Just something to consider.

Redirect to Marta's original question - I think what we're looking for here from the "anti-spankers" are ACTUAL suggestions for new methods to try. EVERY parent I know who spanks would prefer not to, so let's help them find new ideas.

I don't think the school issue above is a normal spaking situation, even for my friends who do spank their kids often. Of course the parent should have done more investigation.

On this line: "you must ask in a broader sense what measures can be taken to find out what makes a child so seeminly unphased by disciplinary techniques that are proven to be extremely effective for many and most children" - you seem to forget that spanking IS considered one of these methods.

Here - "If children reach the point where spanking comes into play, then I am inclined to believe that there are much deeper-rooted issues happening with the child...these issues could be family related, or specific to their own physical limitations" - although deeper issues may be the case in some instances, not all fit that assumption, which leads us back to what I really think Marta is trying to find out...........

ANTI-spankers, someone can someone please come up with legit, usable answers for some of these moms that are struggling:

What are your "last resort" methods? I'll toss out some random stuff here. What do YOU do when your child...

Repeatedly pours juice all over the TV/couch/car/etc ?

Keeps running away from you in parking lots?

Screams and hits you every time you're having a phone conversation?

Kicks, pulls, screams, rolls on the floor, fights you EVERY morning while getting dressed for school?

Despite repeated conversations, likes to pull the dog's tail and ears, or dumps the food into the water bowl?

There are hundreds of situations that trigger parents to spank, and those were just a few. Rather than touting yourselves as better people and calling spankers "child abusers", "unloving", "bad parents" or any of the other nasty things that have been said in this string, how about trying to offer them some actual workable help???

Anna - posted on 07/12/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Marta:

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Marta:

So, here's a question for all of the anti-spanking moms: when time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, you've taken away all of their priveleges, you've counted to three, you've given them three chances, you've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what do you do? I want an honest answer none of this read this book or that guide/article but a straight honest answer for a straight and honest question!

I would not spank my child even if I had exhausted all other forms of discipline.  I believe that if non-physical forms of discipline are no longer effective then the child's behaviour has become much more complex.  Spanking a child does not guarantee the desired behaviour parents are seeking with the punishment, and although some parents believe that it is effective, I very much doubt that parents would condone physical discipline of their child by anyone else (and if spanking is all that works, how then should others be expected to discipline them?)

Here's a question for the die-hard spanking moms:

When your child is at school and time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, the teacher has taken away all of their privileges, they've counted to three, they've given them three chances, they've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what does the teacher do?  I'm going to guess that the answer is "NOT spank the child".... 

 

No, the teacher would not spank they would call mom and dad and the child would be sent home. To get back on track you didn't answer my question what else can be done when the well known solutions have been exhausted?

I am on track...I answered your question.  You asked "then what do you do?"...and I said "I would not spank my child even if I had exhausted all other forms of discipline".  If you are speaking in general terms, then the question cannot be subjectively posed to each individual poster and rather you must ask in a broader sense what measures can be taken to find out what makes a child so seeminly unphased by disciplinary techniques that are proven to be extremely effective for many and most children.  Only then can you begin to look at other possibilities as forms of punishment.  Parents that use spanking always follow it up with "it's the only thing that works"...but if you look at how damaging that statement is to many other situations throughout life, you might begin to understand why there is such a stigma surrounding the action and furthermore why parents that do spank feel such a strong urge to constantly justify their actions, rather than speak confidently about their decision to spank their kids.

Just as an example.  I remember talking with an old co-worker about her Son getting into trouble at school because he was disrupting the class during lessons.  My co-worker tried every thing possible that she knew to discipline her Son to no avail, until she took him to the doctor and found out that he needed glasses and the reason for his disruption of the class was his impaired motor function when trying to concentrate on a work lesson, but not being able to see....had she spanked her Son to discipline his behaviour and continued to do so to "get her point across", she might not have taken the suggestions of her friends to have her Son tested for ADD.  He doesn't have ADD, but in testing him the doctor was able to uncover his problem.  This is what I mean when I am talking about children being resistant to all other forms of discipline and becoming deviant to the point where parents feel that spanking is the only option.  If children reach the point where spanking comes into play, then I am inclined to believe that there are much deeper-rooted issues happening with the child...these issues could be family related, or specific to their own physical limitations (such as impaired motor function which results in lack of focus and often unruly behaviour)....

Just something to consider.

Redirect to Marta's original question - I think what we're looking for here from the "anti-spankers" are ACTUAL suggestions for new methods to try. EVERY parent I know who spanks would prefer not to, so let's help them find new ideas.

I don't think the school issue above is a normal spaking situation, even for my friends who do spank their kids often. Of course the parent should have done more investigation.

On this line: "you must ask in a broader sense what measures can be taken to find out what makes a child so seeminly unphased by disciplinary techniques that are proven to be extremely effective for many and most children" - you seem to forget that spanking IS considered one of these methods.

Here - "If children reach the point where spanking comes into play, then I am inclined to believe that there are much deeper-rooted issues happening with the child...these issues could be family related, or specific to their own physical limitations" - although deeper issues may be the case in some instances, not all fit that assumption, which leads us back to what I really think Marta is trying to find out...........

ANTI-spankers, someone can someone please come up with legit, usable answers for some of these moms that are struggling:

What are your "last resort" methods? I'll toss out some random stuff here. What do YOU do when your child...

Repeatedly pours juice all over the TV/couch/car/etc ?

Keeps running away from you in parking lots?

Screams and hits you every time you're having a phone conversation?

Kicks, pulls, screams, rolls on the floor, fights you EVERY morning while getting dressed for school?

Despite repeated conversations, likes to pull the dog's tail and ears, or dumps the food into the water bowl?

There are hundreds of situations that trigger parents to spank, and those were just a few. Rather than touting yourselves as better people and calling spankers "child abusers", "unloving", "bad parents" or any of the other nasty things that have been said in this string, how about trying to offer them some actual workable help???

Anna - posted on 07/12/2009

Sigh. Easy on the self-righteousness, folks. I love the debate, but the amount of judgment in so many of these posts is nasty: "This was started by someone who smacks her kids and wants approval...." No, this was started by a thinking parent who wanted to discuss methodology with other parents, not be judged or talked down to. Here's my one point of judgment - before your kids get a bit older, some of you should figure out how to teach a child to have a reasonable discussion about an emotionally charged subject with another human being. It's a vital skill.



Apparently, my parents spanked me as a child - I remember NONE of it because it wasn't done in anger, nor was I bruised or abused. In regards to the person who's 11 year old keeps bringing it up - either that was an out of control situation when it happened, or your kid is PLAYING you. Of course he keeps bringing it up, it obviously makes you feel like crap so he's using it for leverage.





I believe that the methods of discipline each of us choose MUST be dependant upon our personalities and our children's (and the combination of the two), and the problem of the moment. I am very laid-back, in fact, often someone who got walked on as a younger woman because I didn't stand up for myself. Discipline is far from a natural instinct for me. I didn't have good personal boundaries until several years ago, and even self-discipline was difficult for me. I challenge myself every day to find creative ways to instill the values that my family cherishes.



I was also a "I'll never spank my child" person, until my daughter was somewhere around 2 and I experience the first of taste of toddler hysterics. I have never hit/spanked her in anger, but in situations where I had attempted several other solutions first and she was already beyond reasoning, beyond listening or putting herself in a dangerous situation - yes, I have used a single pop on the bottom to get her attention and halt the behavior. (I DID not do this when she went through her hitting and biting phase - didn't make any sense.) The rare spanking in our house is coupled with discussion, just as a time out would be. I do not at all believe that this is teaching her that her body isn't important or that it's OK to hit people - my goal and hope is to instill enough good discipline when she's still a toddler so that other methods work in ALL situations. (As a side note, I think forcing your child to hug or kiss or sit with someone that they don't want to, even a relative, is not teaching them to be polite.....THAT behavior will teach a child that their body is not their own - not spanking.)





I could write about this for hours, but the last though I'll share is that for me, a non-disciplinarian, I always keep reminding myself "YOU are the parent." It's our job to provide them with rules, boundaries and guidance (coupled with the love, caring, coping skills, manners, etc) so that they don't become spoiled, crappy, entitled, mean, selfish or unproductive adults. Children need discipline, crave it, and are all the better for it. Quit the holier-than-thou crap - many of my best girlfriends also have kids; we certainly do not all parent the same way, but we talk about everything, learn from and listen to each other and provide the support that all parents need and deserve.

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/12/2009

Opps.. correction - Some people spend their entore adult life, all KINDS of money - he he -- sorry broken pinkie makes it hard to type!

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/12/2009

Spanking is not always abuse. HOWEVER - spanking is violence weather done in anger or not. It envokes a fight or flight response this is why it appears to "work" It is not the LOGICAL way to handle any situation. You can't go to work & start smacking people when they don't act the way you would want them to. Why would you think it was ok to go around smacking your kids to "get their attention" or "as a last resort" when you can't do that anywhere else in life but maybe a boxing ring? In a boxing ring those people agreed to the situation first - your child didn't ask to be born, you brought them into this world & they deserve more respect than to be smacked just so you can get the response you want out of them. Notice I said smacked not beaten. Lots of people have spent so much time in their posts trying to explain they don't beat their kids, I'm not talking about beatings. If you want respect from your children then give them the respect they deserve, don't smack them. The Bible, how your parents raised you or "that it works" doesn't make it right either. You will do what ever you want in the privacy of your home but lots of people do things in the privacy of their home that are not right. Also, just because a parent doesn't smack their kids doesn't mean that they have crazy out of control kids. If we all want the "best" for our kids then the "best" is that they NOT be smacked or hit or swatted or tapped or whatever other word that you want to use. Don't you want your children to have the best? Your children are the most prescious gift you could recieve in life. Some people spend their entire adult life all kids or money & proceedures trying to achieve what you have, respect that. Also, smacking is not discipline it is punishment those are totaly different things. You do have alternatives parents - it's up to you to empower yourself to find them or keep on finding ways to justify smacking your kids - this debate is not for those of us who won't smack our kids because you are not going to change our minds, I'm never going to smack my kids. This debate was started by a parent who smacks her kids. She wanted back up from other parents who smack their kids.. most of the mom's who smack their kids are going to keep on doing it. I just ask those mom's the next time you feel you "have" to smack your kids how about giving yourself a time out - change how you are looking at the situation & the situation will change. Open up your mind & realize their is a better way... no I am not saying do not discipline your kids - just don't smack them.

Jessica - posted on 07/12/2009

Quoting Rachel:

I have a fantastic alternative that I have seen work with my friends' children who can be very obnoxious. I think it's a must read for parents desiring to set limits: "1-2-3 Magic." it helps with that "lack of control" issue you talk about with kids. they DO NOT want to disappoint you, and this method helps them learn when limits have been reached with consequences that are both appropriate for their age and not physically harmful to them (or emotionally, i think). you can start it at an early age.

I spanked one of my children once when I was frustrated and fed up, when he was 5, and he still brings it up now, as an 11 year old. He remembers what i did to him.

Then, I have to say, as a child who was hit repeatedly as a form of "discipline" (and I was the "good" one and got the least of it), it was HORRIBLY DETRIMENTAL to me. It robbed me of a relationship with my father (who was the perpetrator) and made me really distrust my mother, who stood by and let it happen because there had to be "discipline." Please, parents, don't hit your children. Think of what you're REALLY teaching them:
1. it's not ok to hit other children (i don't know any parent who doesn't teach this to their young ones), but if you bother me enough it's ok for me to hit you. WHAT????
2. you've "exhausted all possibilities" because you're too tired, lack help, creativity, or whatever, so you can physically harm your child and justify that to yourself. what kinds of bad behavior are you setting them up to justify when they don't see any other possibilities?

stop fooling yourself: THERE IS NO "LOVING" WAY TO SPANK/HIT/BEAT A CHILD. There just isn't, and if you're telling yourself this, you need to go to therapy and find out who told you that big lie and grieve whatever hopelessness you feel that led you to accept that.

There is a difference between abuse and discipline. If you beat your child so badly that he remembers it and brings it up six years later, that's abuse. If I give my child one minor swat on the butt  on a rare occasion to get his attention because he is totally out of control and no other alternative has worked, that's discipline.

I am sorry that you were abused as a child, that is a horrible thing. But, there really is a difference between the two. 

Jaime - posted on 07/12/2009

Quoting Angela:

Quoting Jaime:

If spanking worked, then my thinking is that you would only have to do it once per punishment.  Spanking twice means that you have to apply more of the punishment to the child (one poster admitted to spanking with a paint stir stick between 2 and 10 times) because it is not effective and is that not why you stopped using the other forms of discipline?

And why the need to talk about the punishment after it is applied?  If you have given them warning before you spank them, then discussing why you did it afterward is redundant...if you are confident that spanking will get your point across, then talking to your child about it after you do it, suggests that you are not certain they understand why you spanked them---thus rendering it ineffective again.

but  isn't putting a child in time out over and over applying more of the same punishment?

I spanked my kids when they were younger and reasoning wasn't part of their make-up yet. I never yelled, I was always calm, and I was never angry when I did it. They got 3 solid swats on their behinds just hard enough to get the message across. I only used my hand so that I knew exactly how much pressure I was applying, and if my hand barely stung then so did their butts.

This method was used mostly for issues of safety. There were no ifs, ands or buts about it. As an example, my daughter (who was about 2 - 2 1/2) had an issue with staying in her car seat once she figured out how to undo the latches. This was before they had the covers so they can't push the button. The FIRST time she took her seatbelt off we'd pull over I'd put it back on then tell her "If you take it off again I'm going to spank you. You have to leave the seatbelt on". The second time she took it off I'd do just what I said I was going to do ... I pulled over, swatted her 3 times on the butt and put her back in her seatbelt. It took maybe a week of EVERY time she was in the car and took her seatbelt off a second time she got a swat to get the point across, and she NEVER did it again. And to this day she doesn't forget to put her seatbelt on.

My kids are now 16, 14 and 11 and there has only been on suspension from school for fighting. HOWEVER, that suspension was for the oldest and he was simply defending himself against someone who attacked him first. Both parties involved in the fight get suspended where I'm at, doesn't matter who starts it. All three are kind, compassionate, caring, loving and respectful kids who are welcome EVERYWHERE.

We have a close loving relationship and they can and DO talk to me about anything. They can and DO express their own opinions, however they DO NOT disrepect me or their dad. They know that I'm the mama and what I say goes or there WILL be consequences. As they got older and were more able to reason those consequences became more and more about losing what they loved most and less and less about a physical reminder of who the parent is and who makes the rules and who is going to follow them. And for all three of them by the time they started school we were pretty much done with spankings. Because by the time they were in school they were able to reason out and understand that "if you take your seatbelt off and I have to stop suddenly there won't be anything holding you in place and you could get hurt", for example.

They can be an effective tool when used properly and/or when time outs aren't an option or are ineffective for a particular child. Not every child finds a time out to be punishment. Knowing your child(ren) and what works for each one and being consistant and teaching them along with the punishment is what is going to work, no matter which method you choose.

But I also think any punishment should be used sparingly for it to be fully effective, and picking your battles is an important skill also :)

Many people that advocate spanking have talked about it in terms of being a "last resort" and used to "get the point across".  What I'm referring to when it comes to spanking over and over (meaning with each punishment a child gets spanked with three hits, four hits, etc), is that if spanking was for the purpose of "getting the point across", or snapping a child "back to reality" or whatever other excuse is used to support spanking, then one hit should be enough to make the point.  And my point is that it doesn't get any point across because parents don't always use one hit, and even if they do, I go back to what I said before about the fact that kids don't change their behaviour because they got the point, they change it to avoid more physical punishment. 

And what is the "proper" way to spank a child?

Children don't need to be punished as if they are criminals, they need to be disciplined and taught how to live cohesively with their family and later with society.

Jaime - posted on 07/12/2009

Quoting Lindsey:

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Lindsey:

I believe that certain children need a swat as a form of discipline. If you have never had to spank your child...bravo to you...but don't look down on the rest of us who do. We don't like to spank them. It doesn't give us pleasure. But when you have tried every other way and it's failed, what is left?

And for me spanking is not an impulse. If I tell my daughters to stop doing something they know they shouldn't be doing, and yet they continue, I ask them, "Do I have to spank you to get you to stop?" I will explain to them why, I will give them time outs, and rather than yell at them or spank their bum I will try to smack my hands together to get their attention, but if all that fails I will spank their bum and explain to them why. It is not impulsive, it is thought out and they are warned.

That is what my parents did with me. I didn't feel hurt, or abused, I would be upset that I didn't get my way, but I thank my parents for raising me the way they did and for punishing me the way they did. If it weren't for them I wouldn't be the person I am today.

I have not cast judgment down on anyone that spanks their child, so for you to say "don't look down on the rest of us who do" suggests that you are feeling and intense guilt about your choice to spank your children.  I am not looking down on anyone, I am simply having a debate about spanking vs. not spanking.

Furthermore asking your children "do I have to spank you to get you to stop?" is not a warning, it's a threat and it becomes associated with fear and later with abuse.  To say to your child "stop throwing your toys or you will be put on the naughty chair/thinking chair/sent to your room for a time-out"....is far more effective than saying to them "stop throwing your toys or you will get a spanking", because they will stop throwing the toys to avoid a spanking, not to correct their behaviour.

Telling my daughter that she better stop or else she'll get a spanking is a threat but telling her that she had better stop or else she'll get time out isn't?  Do you hear the similarity in those two statements? OR ELSE????  How do you know if your child stops throwing toys to avoid a time out?  How is it different than my child stopping to avoid a spanking?  I have gone through this argument with my own mil when we lived with her for 10 months.  And I tried her methods.  I saw how disrespectful and disobedient my own daughters became.  I also saw my mil come to her wits end and spank my daughter after telling me that there are better ways. 

If you really read my first post you would have read that I explain to them why they got a spanking and why I asked them not to do it in the first place.  It's not like I just give them a smack and away we go.  It's just like you explaining to your child why they got a time out, or why they got their things taken away.  It is to correct their behaviour.  If I just smacked my child and walked away without an explanation then yes they wouldn't be learning to correct their behaviour but the same goes for time outs and removing privileges. 

Certainly there is a similarity in the wording, I agree, and would go one step further and say that how something is said can influence how another person perceives it whether it has to do with spanking or time out.  I would never tell my Son "stop doing that or else!", I would however, let him know that his behaviour was not acceptable and that if he continued to misbehave he would be sent to a time out.  Time out does not have to be isolation and it certainly has nothing to do with punishment.  As has been said in other posts, discipline is the goal, not punishment.  Discipline is not a negative thing.  To discipline a child is to teach a child how to control their behaviours and their reactions to situations throughout life (it's about independence and self-control).  Punishing a child for misbehaving is counter-productive because it suggests harsh consequences to an otherwise completely controllable situation if it is given consistancy and patience.

That being said, time out is far more effective because it allows a child the chance to calm their behaviour and it also gives the parent time to shed the frustration and find a more proactive way to discipline so that the child can learn the difference between disruptive behaviour and whatever  parents deem to be appropriate behaviour.  If the child is spanked, the reaction is likely to be disruptive (which is what you are trying to avoid in the first place).  Furthermore, having to sit down and discuss with your child why they were punished does not make sense, because if you are dedicated to discipline (that is, 'teaching' rather than 'punishing'), then your child will understand why you have disciplined them.  A discussion before or after the fact would be redundant.

With every discipline there are extremes...I would never send my Son to a time out for hours on end because it would not be effective and would certainly send the message that he deserves isolation for throwing a tantrum (which could be the result of being tired or just another of many tests that kids put parents through as they discover new things).  Time out is not for the purpose of isolating a child (which would be a punishment), it is about giving the child time to calm down.  I have told my niece once or twice when throwing a tantrum that she needs to go into her room and calm down and she can join us when she is calm...and that gives her the chance to correct her behaviour without having to reach extremes.  Often kids will calm themselves and then a conversation might ensue about what is bothering the child to make them throw a tantrum and be disruptive.  I am cretain that kids will want to avoid time out because it takes them away from play time, but when it comes to spanking, I think you would be hard pressed to find a kid that wasn't fearful of the physical threat that goes along with this punishment.  There is no fear associted with time out.  Everyone in this world takes time outs when their emotions get the better of them...should we start hitting ourselves instead to 'snap' back to reality?

Tammy - posted on 07/12/2009

Quoting Jaime:

In my opinion, spanking is an impulse discipline

Only if done in anger which no one here is advocating.

because the frustration which has lead to the use of spanking, is what drives the reaction and the intensity which many parents admit to when they cry victorious at having "got the point across"! 

Frustration only leads to spanking if you're doing it wrong.  Frustration leads often to ABUSE which is why proper spanking is done EARLY.  Most parents who use spanking also believe that children should not have to be hounded for an hour until the parent blows up in frustration.  Do parents do this?  Yes.  Is it spanking as I think most of us who believe in it are advocating?  No.  The entire point of spanking is to make a definitive point that the child will not be ALLOWED to continue bad behavior long enough for the parent to blow a fuse.  I do feel victorious that I got the point across but it has nothing to do with having vented my frustration.  It has to do with not HAVING to get frustrated in the first place.

Spanking is not done right if it's done in a calm, collected and well-thought-out manner. 

If this is truly your opinion then you have no understanding of how proper spanking is done and therefore it is a good thing that you do not use it.

The reason people spank their children is to elicit a specific reaction by hitting them hard enough to cause some form of physical response (pain/discomfort).  Spanking doesn't tickle, spanking doesn't feel like a friggin' massage, spanking hurts whether it is mentally, physically or emotionally! 

This is correct.  The point of it is to bring a little amount of pain to a child in order to avoid the ENORMOUS pain that could come later if the lesson being taught is not learned.  A spanking will help a small child to associate running out in the street with PAIN therefore they will be less likely to do it.  The pain of them not learning that lesson would be far more than the pain of learning it from spanking.  The pain of getting spanked because he mouths of to his mother will teach him respect for authority, hopefully saving him the pain of being fired by a boss, thrown up against a wall by a policeman or being face to face with an angry God.

If a parent has taken the time to calm down, collect their thoughts and think about a punishment for their child's behaviour then spanking should no longer be a consideration as the frustration has gone away. 

You are describing ABUSE, not spanking.  Abuse is done while frustrated.  Spanking is done while calm.  It is done not to vent the parent's frustration, it is done to teach the child something.  Yes, if you get mad and just start flailing on your child (and I know some parents do this) that is called ABUSE, not spanking.

And if you are going to have a heart-felt talk with your child before or after their spanking so that they know why they are being punished and how you feel about their behaviour, then why the need to spank them? 

Because spanking is done BECAUSE the child does not care what you think about their behavior.  If the child is old enough to have a talk with, you are spanking him because he KNOWS what he is doing is wrong.  The spanking puts the child in a more receptive state of mind to hear what you are trying to tell them.

What does the spanking do at this point?  To calmly spank a child is unsettling because it suggests that a parent has had time to think about the situation and calm themselves and the child has likely calmed their behaviour as well, but they are still determined to "get the point across" with a swift swat, tap, slap, smack, whateverthehellyouwanttocallit!!!

Yes, it is unsettling.  That's the point.  That is also why proper spanking does NOT lead to violent behavior, quite the opposite.  You are calming telling the child that this behavior will not be tolerated. The reason why it is not tolerated is NOT because I'm mad or I'm frustrated or I'm irritated.  The reason why the behavior will not be tolerated is because it is WRONG and because you know the child will suffer in life if they do not learn this lesson.  I have spanked my  children for hitting other kids!  I wrote in another thread that I asked all 4 of my children if that confused them.  (they're 16, 12, 9 and 6)  They looked at me like I was stupid.  They said OF COURSE that was not confusing to them.  Kids hit each other because they're selfish and angry.  Parents spank their kids because they are trying to teach them something and have the right to do so.  Seriously, kids get this.  

It doesn't even make sense to spank a child when you are calm because if you are both calm then why the need for physical force?  To show authority?

In a word- yes.  A parent is in RIGHTFUL authority over a child.  A parent has the RIGHT to tell a child how to act.  If a child refuses to submit to this legimate authority they need to be firmly reminded of who is in charge.  Not because you want to be all high and mighty but because you TRULY DO know best whether the kid can comprehend that or not.  Also, rightful authority exists in every area of life.  A person who learns young to understand, respect and be in submission to rightful authority is one who will have MUCH less trouble dealing with bosses, cops, judges, rules, laws and ultimately, God.

  And to that I ask, if physical force constitutes authority then why do we teach our children that using physical force on another person is unacceptable

Because I am not in rightful authority over you, nor you me.  Your child is not an authority figure over his friends or his sister.  This really is not a struggle for kids.  If a person spanks properly (as opposed to abusively just hauling off and smacking them out of anger) they demonstrate that authority figures have the right to use physical force against you if you don't obey them.  This has nothing to do with hitting their playmate and they know it. My children saw a poignant example of this the other day at our house.  A drunk guy came in our yard and refused to leave.  We called the cops and the cop PLEADED with the guy to please let the cops take him somewhere.  They talked to him for several minutes asking him his address and imploring him to just let them take him home.  The drunk told them to go to hell.  After about the 5th time he said that and after he refused to tell them where he lived and refused to let them gently guide him to their car, they pushed him over on the ground and put their knee in his back and cuffed him.  My kids didn't think the cop was evil for getting physical with the guy.  The police have that right.  My kids thought the guy was an idiot for not doing as he was told.  That's how they see spanking- the logical consequence that ONE CHOOSES by refusing to submit to legitimate authority.

and furthermore, if physical force is the only method that works to show your child authority, then should teachers and employers also use the spanking method when your child misbehaves?

Teachers and employers are two totally different things.  Employers deal with older teens or adults who agree to do what they are told.  If they don't do it, they should be FIRED, not spanked.  A better example would be police officers.  Yes, I believe they should have the right to hit you if you break the law and resist their authority.  Teachers on the other hand deal with children who  are still in the process of being educated.  They HAD the right to spank children up until very recently (at least in US).  I am 44 years old and spanking was commonly done when I was a child in school.  I think the school was a much better place when teachers had this right.  I would prefer to be the one doing the spanking myself, but if my kid got up in his teacher's face and told her to "F-off" I would have no problem with her spanking him.  The thing is, parents who properly spank their children rarely end up having this dilemma.  I never was spanked by a teacher in 12 years of schooling because my parents spanked me at home and taught me how to behave toward authority figures, so I never did anything that bad that a teacher needed to spank me.

  Spanking does not discipline your child.  Spanking does not teach a child right from wrong....

While I respect your opinion on this, it IS in direct opposition with facts.  I can't speak for anywhere else but here in the US people used to spank their kids almost universally.  I don't know about you but the kind of adults that produced are, in my opinion, far superior to ones that are being produced now under your philosophy of training.  In my own circle of friends, those who are totally opposed to spanking produce WITHOUT EXCEPTION poorly behaved, disrespectful brats (and without exception their parents are the only ones unaware of this).  If you are that one in a million person who refutes that, I congratulate you but even my children can pick out from the playground the children who are spanked and those who are not.  It's not even so much their behavior so much as it is their ATTITUDE.

communication is the key to discipline and that IS A FACT. 

True, but sometimes the important thing that needs to be communicated is "You are a child. You have no idea what is best for you.  I am the parent.  I have a much better understanding of these things and you WILL do as you are told whether it makes sense to you or not."

 I have never had to spank any child in my care and I will not spank my Son.  If I have exhausted all other forms of discipline that I can possibly think of then I will seek help outside of my home to find out if there are deeper-rooted issues that are causing an aversion to discipline.

This is another grave misunderstanding of spanking.  It is not some last ditch effort out of frustration and anger.  It is the discipline method of choice for certain behaviors.  I don't spank because I am not bright enough to come up with anything better.  I spank because there IS nothing better for children when they are being rebellious, knowingly disobedient or when their behavior is dangerous and they are too young to understand an explanation.  Sticking their finger in an electrical outlet or running out into the street or running away from me at the pool could KILL a small child.  A small child does not understand "DEAD" they only understand what THEY want to do.  What they do understand is that if I spank them, it hurts.  They don't want that pain so they do what I say.  That way they live long enough for me to explain it to them when they are old enough to understand it.

Mellody - posted on 07/12/2009

I agree! I thoroughly believe that “disobedient” children need more than a time out or the loss of a privilege, when they've done something wrong. Especially when they are at a stage when they understand the difference between right a wrong.

Many parents think that “time outs” and other none punitive punishments are adequate, and maybe for some children it is. But after a certain stage I’ve noticed that a lot of children make light of these types of corrective action. Time out in a corner becomes somewhat of a game – i.e. testing boundaries – seeing how far out of the corner they can go before being told to go back, excessive crying/name calling - for attention.

Taking away toys or privileges becomes redundant, because often times the child has so many other things to play with or do, that after the fact they forget that they’ve had what they want taken away and it loses the effect. Some parents may take away all privileges, but that’s a lot of work. And even without toys etc. they can still have fun. They make games out of nothing, playing make belief. Put a kid in an empty room and he can have fun for hours.

What I’m getting at is children often times need more then a sharp NO to understand that what they are doing is bad, and that they need to stop. Saying no doesn’t hurt the child. Taking away a toy doesn’t either, so they don’t get a lasting reason why they shouldn’t do it.



I’m not say you should severely hurt your child, but a quick slap resonates more then a word. The sting from a slap stays with them longer, and the emotional effect is different as well. When mommy or daddy slaps a child’s hand it upsets them, because it hurts emotionally and they only expect love and gentleness from their parents. When they realise that what they’ve done deserves a slap, and they remember the physical and emotional “hurt”, they will be more likely to think twice about doing something bad.



Slapping/ smacking your child is obviously a decision you have to make for yourself. And how far your willing to go with it is something you have to consider as well. –As they get older they may need a harder slap.

Parents say slapping is abuse. And all we should have to use is Verbal correction.

I absolutely do not condone Abuse. But there are clear differences between slapping your child and abusing your child. Verbal correction can become abusive too. So we all have to remember we are the adult and we have to control ourselves before we can ever control our children.



Slapping, when not used excessively is any excellent way to show a child wrong from right. It shows who is in control and who gets the respect. I’m not say that non punitive punishment doesn’t work, or that it’s a bad idea, but sometimes the situation calls for a more serious correction.



Thanks for reading. :)



Mellody

THERESA - posted on 07/12/2009

My son is 22, in the army 3 years, a god fearing morally upright respectable person. He was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of about 4 or 5, and let me tell you, there was a lot of energy and not listening. We used a thin paint stir stick, as someone mentioned, to get his attention. I am very blessed with an otherwise very good child. I think a form of physical discipline is always necessary when they are young, too young to talk, explain, reason, etc. I'm an old fashioned gal that got my share of spankings and I think I turned out ok. And I think my son turned out great, because I feel confident I was able to pass on RESPECT. People today feel you have to just give respect but I still feel you have to earn respect and unless we teach them at a young age, how are they to learn how to give it, much less earn it. It's not free. Nor is anything else in this world free, except love. Give all the love you have, because there will always be more where it comes from. And because they have taken physical discipline out of our school systems, this has overflowed into the young generation in the work force, and then on into other areas, like our government. It's a lose/lose situation as long as we permit it to go on. If you don't agree, I'm sorry. But, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Have a blessed day and life.

Tiffany - posted on 07/12/2009

I have two little girls, and my husband and I spank when neccessary. I my personal opinion, a firm swat on the butt when all other options failed is okay sometimes. I know the difference between spanking and child abuse. I feel like my oldest, who is four, could get spanked all the time and it doesn't change her behavior. So my husband and I do a lot of taking things away with her. But sometimes she needs a spanking to turn her behavior around. My only thing is I never spank in public. I personally feel like it is too humiliating to the child, and there are always judgemental people who don't have headstrong children, or children at all who will call the authorities because they don't agree with spanking. Keep up the good work and know that you aren't the only mommy out there who spanks their kids when they need it.

Amy - posted on 07/12/2009

When I first became a mom, I had resolved never to spank. I was spanked as a child and felt awful about it. I could remember clearly not only the pain of the spanking, but also the resentment and humiliation I felt afterwards. I was bound and determined never to spank, and for a while I was one of the self-righteous, smug people you see posting on here saying "I've never felt the need to spank" and all the while thinking I must be a better parent than those spanking parents, or must have naturally better behaved children (or both). Then my second child came along, and all my strong ant-spanking feelings began to weaken. This child was different (gasp!). She didn't respond to the quiet corner or speaking her name in a stern voice, or withholding privileges. And one day I spanked her. Guess what? I don't feel like an awful mom. I feel like a mom who disciplined that child in a way that would get the message across. And as for the way I felt about being spanked, I think it's all about how you do it. I never hit my child out of anger, I only spank on the bottom, and never with any object other than my hand. I'm sure there are several smug non-spankers right now thinking "I never have to hit my children" and you know what I say? Good for you. But it's unfair for people to force their discipline beliefs on anyone else, just as no one wants someone else's religious beliefs thrust upon them. Discipline is a personal thing that it is up to each parent to do in a way that works best for them.

Jennifer - posted on 07/12/2009

In our household spanking is a last resort. My son just turned 2, and though he is intelligent, he likes to push his boundaries. And reasoning does not work with him just yet. Also it depends on what he was doing to whether it warrants being spanked or not. Just the other day we were at a park with a close friend and he decided to let go of my friends hand and take off toward one of those electric cars (looks a bit like the Little Tike truck). I had my hands full carrying our stuff. So I had to set it down in the middle of the parking lot and chase him down before he got to the car, or worse ,the road. He got a quick spank and was also made to sit at a picnic table while other children played. Trying to explain to a 2 year old that something will hurt them doesn't always work. Thats why when he reaches for the stove he gets his fingers smacked. Not hard, but enough to make him realize that we don't do that. I was raised being spanked, and so was my husband.

Alison - posted on 07/12/2009

Most children grow up ok if they have parents who lead by example by meeting ther childs needs, abiding by the law, being honest, hardworking etc. This usually happens regardless of whether they spank or not.



Spanking or non-spanking does not produce violent children. Uninvolved parents who have multiple sexual partners and behave in an antisocial way are the ones who produce problem children.