Spanking: let's just get all of the nastiness out here and call it a day!

Angela - posted on 07/12/2009

Quoting Jaime:

If spanking worked, then my thinking is that you would only have to do it once per punishment.  Spanking twice means that you have to apply more of the punishment to the child (one poster admitted to spanking with a paint stir stick between 2 and 10 times) because it is not effective and is that not why you stopped using the other forms of discipline?

And why the need to talk about the punishment after it is applied?  If you have given them warning before you spank them, then discussing why you did it afterward is redundant...if you are confident that spanking will get your point across, then talking to your child about it after you do it, suggests that you are not certain they understand why you spanked them---thus rendering it ineffective again.

but  isn't putting a child in time out over and over applying more of the same punishment?

I spanked my kids when they were younger and reasoning wasn't part of their make-up yet. I never yelled, I was always calm, and I was never angry when I did it. They got 3 solid swats on their behinds just hard enough to get the message across. I only used my hand so that I knew exactly how much pressure I was applying, and if my hand barely stung then so did their butts.

This method was used mostly for issues of safety. There were no ifs, ands or buts about it. As an example, my daughter (who was about 2 - 2 1/2) had an issue with staying in her car seat once she figured out how to undo the latches. This was before they had the covers so they can't push the button. The FIRST time she took her seatbelt off we'd pull over I'd put it back on then tell her "If you take it off again I'm going to spank you. You have to leave the seatbelt on". The second time she took it off I'd do just what I said I was going to do ... I pulled over, swatted her 3 times on the butt and put her back in her seatbelt. It took maybe a week of EVERY time she was in the car and took her seatbelt off a second time she got a swat to get the point across, and she NEVER did it again. And to this day she doesn't forget to put her seatbelt on.

My kids are now 16, 14 and 11 and there has only been on suspension from school for fighting. HOWEVER, that suspension was for the oldest and he was simply defending himself against someone who attacked him first. Both parties involved in the fight get suspended where I'm at, doesn't matter who starts it. All three are kind, compassionate, caring, loving and respectful kids who are welcome EVERYWHERE.

We have a close loving relationship and they can and DO talk to me about anything. They can and DO express their own opinions, however they DO NOT disrepect me or their dad. They know that I'm the mama and what I say goes or there WILL be consequences. As they got older and were more able to reason those consequences became more and more about losing what they loved most and less and less about a physical reminder of who the parent is and who makes the rules and who is going to follow them. And for all three of them by the time they started school we were pretty much done with spankings. Because by the time they were in school they were able to reason out and understand that "if you take your seatbelt off and I have to stop suddenly there won't be anything holding you in place and you could get hurt", for example.

They can be an effective tool when used properly and/or when time outs aren't an option or are ineffective for a particular child. Not every child finds a time out to be punishment. Knowing your child(ren) and what works for each one and being consistant and teaching them along with the punishment is what is going to work, no matter which method you choose.

But I also think any punishment should be used sparingly for it to be fully effective, and picking your battles is an important skill also :)

Karen - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting Julia:

I spank my son and I don't care who knows. But let me be clear. I said "spank him" not "beat him". I do use time-out and sit in the corner but I do not use the whole "go to your room" cause I have found out that going to his room is like sending him to Disney World with a free pass and a bank roll. I spank him for the major stuff, time out for the minor stuff, and a lecture for the petty stuff. When I spank him I do not slap him or grab at him. I hit him on the butt or I spank his hand. I know alot of people do not approve of spanking. But are I am a single woman trying to raise a boy to be a man. Are they going to bail him out of jail when he disrespects a police officer? Or feels so entitled to everything and has no impuse control and end up in jail? Are they going to pull him off of me cause he has so little respect that he thinks it's ok to jump on me? NO, they aren't.

I agree 100%. Yes, Julia is my sister and  we were spanked as children when we deserved it. (Hell, if momma knew half the stuff that she missed, she might wanna spank us again, huh sis?) I read in one of the earlier posts that one of the moms is not spanking her child bc she hated it as a child AND that she now feels that she has trust issues with her parents. I think that what works for one child may not work for another. As a child, I hated cleaning my room, being told what to do, and eating my broccoli. And as an adult I hate going to work everyday, getting up early, and dealing with certain types of people. But sometimes the things you hate are just what you need. And I have ZERO trust issues with my parents. I trust my parents to the up-most extreme.

As a parent to two beautiful, 13 yr old boys(most of which as a single parent before I meet my husband 3 yrs ago), I have used time outs, lectures, grounding, taking away priviiages and personal items, and spanking as a form of discipline. I am trying to raise little boys into men, real men. And, I know that this is NOT A RACE ISSUE, however, for my situation, discipline is key. Young black men are considering themselves lucky to live to be 21 on the streets. As their mother, it is MY JOB to make sure that they grow into respectful, strong, disciplined, contributing members of the community. And I will do that by any means neccessary. Including spanking.

Julia - posted on 07/11/2009

I spank my son and I don't care who knows. But let me be clear. I said "spank him" not "beat him". I do use time-out and sit in the corner but I do not use the whole "go to your room" cause I have found out that going to his room is like sending him to Disney World with a free pass and a bank roll. I spank him for the major stuff, time out for the minor stuff, and a lecture for the petty stuff. When I spank him I do not slap him or grab at him. I hit him on the butt or I spank his hand. I know alot of people do not approve of spanking. But are I am a single woman trying to raise a boy to be a man. Are they going to bail him out of jail when he disrespects a police officer? Or feels so entitled to everything and has no impuse control and end up in jail? Are they going to pull him off of me cause he has so little respect that he thinks it's ok to jump on me? NO, they aren't.

Anige - posted on 07/11/2009

I believe all children are completely different and some pull your string to the last little second and others are good little children. However, my little girl is one that pulls the string until the last little second. We don't alone her in the kitchen because she likes to turn the nobs on our gas stove and well when she comes into the kitchen she gets in trouble and if she does it none stop and does not learn she gets a spanking.





If it doesn't work put them in a chair or on the couch look dead at them in your mean face and voice and let them know not to move and if they do they will get sent to there room with another spanking.





I do however have one good advice, if your child does something bad NEVER SAY '' wait until your dad gets home, your going to get it from him'' or something along them lines because you punish the time it happens not hours later also you will make him look like the bad person.

Catherine - posted on 07/11/2009

I have 2 children a 3 yr old and a 1 yr old. I do pop my 1 yr olds hand if need be if she continues to touch something that I tell her no about and take her away from.



My 3 yr old gets spanked when he is plain right out disrespectful. He is a very smart 3 yr old and will do things on purpose. After I have to tell him 3 times not to do what he is doing I will resort to spanking.



I believe that spanking a child in the right situration is alright but not spanking just to be spanking.

I do not care what people think of me when I spank because he is my child and I will not let him be one of these kids i keep hearing about on the news going to jail for robbing someone or killing someone or whatever reason they are in trouble.

The problem with alot of parents these days is they dont spank and they expect everyone else to raise their child.

Angela - posted on 07/11/2009

I have to say that being the mother of a very strong-willed 2 year old puts me on the "spank" side of this debate. When I use the word spank, I am referring to a single, or double swat to the backside, over diapers, or a single swat to the hand. The only time I had to change that method was when I was pregnant with my second child. My little girl thought it was hilarious to kick mommy in the stomach- HARD. I tired asking her not to do it, telling her not to do it, and finally, I made her stop by one quick slap to the side of her thigh. She did it twice more a few weeks after, and with one swat each time, we were done. Now when I ask her to stop kicking, she puts her legs down right away. Do I think she should be slapped EVERY time she disobeys? No I don't. However, she also loves to climb up on the back of the couch (which is not against a wall), and run in the opposite direction when I ask her to come with me. These are just some of the dangerous habits of hers, and you can't effectively reason with a 2 year old. So, she now knows that if mommy says to get down, or stop, she better do it. All it ever took was one or two swats that never left marks, and were more of a distraction or a scare to her than anything. I believe in an "ask, tell and demand" form of discipline. In that, first I ask the child to do something, if they respond accordingly, they are praised. If they don't respond to "ask" I tell them to do it in a firm tone of voice, sometimes with physical correction ie; turning them in the right direction, or taking something away. If they still do not respond properly, then I demand. Sometimes that means a swat to the backside or hand, sometimes it means physically picking them up and removing them from the situation. Either way, they know that they have done wrong, and are now going to deal with the consequences. If it is a minor infraction like back-talking, I don't spank. If it's major like climbing up on the kitchen table, and I have gotten to the demand stage, I spank.



I was only spanked twice that I can remember as a child, and I am not scarred for life, I do not feel any ill-will towards my parents. I deserved those spankings. I knew it then, and I know it now. I was something of a difficult child...



Society today has created a generation of disrespectful, lazy children who have never had to deal with consequences for their actions. I feel sorry for these children. I do not intend to let the same thing happen to my children, just because some people have decided spanking is equivalent to beating.

Amanda - posted on 07/11/2009

My opinion....You are the mother and have to raise them. Nobody else! What works for you to get through is the RIGHT CHOICE. You know your children best! People will never agree on this subject. Go with your gut and your kids will be wonderful people. My oldest and youngest have rarely been spanked. As for my middle darling, time outs, talking stern, taking away play time and on and on and on...That stuff does not work with her. So each child is different and needs to be diciplined in a way that gets through to that individual.

Lisa - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting rhonda:

i neva judgin a nother mum but 4 mi i neva spank da babes. 4 mi dis is jus rong. i do dum stuff likeke yellin and is hard 2 change in a day. im a teen mum 2, 4 lovey kids and i try da best dat god has give me but still is hard sum times. sum times wana hit but my metor say 2 me, rhonda jus walk way and cont to 10 or tak a break 4 a bit . dis is da best stragy i find

I don't make it a habbit of hitting my children either although I have spanked them I just don't find it works.  My daughter was absolutly devistated and my son could care less if you spank him.  I find taking priveledges away much more effective.  Like Rhonda I am a yeller.  I conciously try not to yell but I just can't seem to help it all of the time., sometimes it just pops out.  I think we all do our best as Rhonda said but no parent is perfect.  I encourage mothers to try other methods when ever they can but I can understand that sometimes you don;t have an option but to spank.

Katlin - posted on 07/11/2009

I used to work in a day care setting. If a child was misbehaving we would put them in time out for however old they were, unless parents instructed us differently. When parents would come pick up their kids and they did something bad we would let them know. I have seen parents that just don't care and will say "Do you want to go get some ice cream?" and some parents that make the kids say sorry and take away a privilege. Believe me there is a big difference in those two different types. The kids that were disciplined were far better than the ones who were not. From an early age I decided that I will discipline my kids because I have seen how they turn out when you don't. I do spank my son when he is misbehaving or doing something he knows is wrong or that could hurt him. I also count to three and use time out. Spanking is my last resort and I don't do it very often because I noticed that my son would try to hit me back or hit something around him when he got mad.

Dawn - posted on 07/11/2009

Spanking worked for me up to early teens. By early teens it caused me more pain to spank my son. You see I had to get upset, then range, then crazy heart pressure after the exercise I maintaned that mood for another hour or so, and you know what he did not even cried.

I do not think you are crazy especially if you tried many other avenues.



I hope they are not teens yet. My culture, children do not back talk their parent so I understand.



Cutting allowance and a little silent treatment worked for me. Reward for good behavior always work for me.



Good luck

Darla - posted on 07/11/2009

I agree with spanking. Sometimes other things just don't work!!!!!!!!!

Tammy - posted on 07/11/2009

I think spanking works. There is a difference between spanking and beating. When I was growing up there was no such thing as TIME OUT. I really don't think that is very affective. Most of the time you are telling themto sit still or they are going to be in trouble. Nothing works better a then a little swat on the rearend. It is not considered abuse

Kilista - posted on 07/11/2009

I got about halfway down and started laughing! My parents spanked me with a belt and a switch. I had ALOT of respect for my parents and still do. Let's take a look back at times. Back when my grandparents and parents were kids. Children respected and had a respectful fear of their parents. Now when I was a kid, around 2nd grade, they tried out lawing spanking. My brother and I both came home saying our school told us to turn in our parents for this and we could go live in a happy foster home. That was a bunch of Bull! I NEVER did drugs, I NEVER skipped school, I NEVER smoked, I NEVER have gotten in trouble with the law, etc. I believe I owe it to my parents who raised me right. My parents may have spanked, but I was raised in a loving Christian home. My parents truely love their children unconditionally which is the same way that Jesus and God love us. I have two step children who were living with their grandparents who were VERY strict. My kids weren't allowed to color a picture how they wanted to. So they had no imagination what so ever. My mother-in-law beat them with the medal end of a belt. So it was a long time before we could even swat them on the butt. Grounding, time out, corner, sentences, etc. all worked for a while, but they are almost 9 and 11 and can be the meanest little things. They have no respect for other peoples feelings most of the time. They don't take care of their pets, refuse to brush teeth after thousands being spent on them, break things that don't belong to them, get up early or up in the middle of the night and slam the bathroom door, refuse to clean their room, mean to the animals, refusing to spend time with family memebers (unless they offer to spend money on them), throw tempertantrums, refuse to do homework and practically fail (teachers pat an the hand and say no no!), I could keep going. My kids have another side too, both are cuddly, loving, nurturing, sweet spirits, but they weren't for a long time. When I finally broke down and started swatting there was an improvement. Then that stopped effecting them, so I use an old belt that doesn't have the buckle part at all and tap them enough they feel it, but not enough to even leave a red mark. Both have started cleaning, taking care of their dogs (one is a yorkie and lost 2 lbs from being starved. I would have fed him, but she told me she did and I believed her), taking care of their belongings, getting A's and B's at school, Brushing their teeth, and just all together go days and weeks without getting even so much as a stern look from me and a "This is your only warning" from me. I use spanking as a last resort. I do time outs still, the corner occasionally, sentences "I will not lie" 100 times for example, essay's "Why it is important for me to brush my teeth and wear my retainer" for example, rarely spanking anymore. So am I against spanking no, but I am against using it as the first automatic punishment. Exhaust ALL other options first. I do not agree with parents who leave marks and bruises, that is not spanking, that is BEATING. If you do not have to spank and your kids are angels, more power to you, but ALL kids are completely different so punishments are completely different. I have gone on sights and talked to other mothers and took some suggestions, some worked, some didn't.

Monica - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting Jori:

I own a licenesed daycare and of course I never use any kind of physical punishment with my daycare kids. But I can tell you that I can tell a real differance in the behaviour of the kids that I know get spanked at home and the ones who don't. The ones who are spanked are a lot more respectful and easier to manage. I spank my own children I have never used the "time out". My children know the boundries and the consequences, if my kids ever acted like some of my daycare kids do, I would surely warm their hinneys. I always get compliments from others on how well behaived my children are if I ever heard any differant I would feel I was not being the parent I should be.

I totally agree.  Many children who don't get spank like to test the waters and sometimes get out of hand.  Children who get spanked are hestitant and think about there actions a little bit longer and think about the consequences.

BlanCHE - posted on 07/11/2009

spanking only works if it is reserved for serious acts of disobedience such as lying,stealing, physical harm to self or others. It is in fact corporal punishment. some parents use it and verbal abuse so often it looses effect. Try to be a yes parent as often as possible, but when you have to say "NO", mean it! That word plus the word Stop can save a child's life.

Kathy - posted on 07/11/2009

I don't know the "exact" definition of spanking... but I totally agree that children need discipline- boundaries, limitations. And there is a huge difference between that and "beating your children". I did not have to do it often, but my children got a few swats on the behind, and had their hands slapped a few

Kathy - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting Marta:

Spanking: let's just get all of the nastiness out here and call it a day!

Both of my boys are very independent, free spirited children with tonnes of energy. My oldest has grown out of the purposeful disrespect stage and has now entered the absent-minded stage so a time out or a quick "Michal!" in a loud voice tends to do it (finally!) but, his little brother is in the full blown terrible two's. We spank our kids and I really don't feel bad about it! I mean, it sucks--don't get me wrong it's not like I enjoy it--but my kids know that when mommy and daddy give them a spank they mean business! In fact, we hardly ever have to spank anymore because they understand that misbehaving after mommy and daddy have instructed them, given them time out and taken away a toy or privelege means they get spanked...and who would want that? We will never get in the way of their creativity or imaginative play but we will continue spanking if all else has been exhausted.

I know that a lot of you are against spanking, smacking, tapping (whatever you want to call it) but have you ever experienced a child purposefully disrespect you and your authority over and over again consecutively? When my kids are teenagers and they disrespect me verbally or otherwise darn right they're gonna get it; I know I did and I turned out pretty well.

Regan - posted on 07/11/2009

I totally agree!! At certain ages they just don't understand rational conversation, but they do undertsand that spanking hurts and i don't want that.

Ashley - posted on 07/11/2009

I didn't want to spank, but after my son turned one I didn't know what else to do. I took the toys away I put him in the corner and I did about everything u can think of. when one day he was really being mean to me telling me he hates me and yelling back at me then throwing things at me I didn't know what else to do but to spank him and tell him why I did that. Right now he is still in the age that he is very disrespectfull and I don't know what else to do. I am hopeing that he stops the disrespectfullness soon cause I don't know what else to do and all I want to do is break down and cry. I feel sometimes I am a bad mom for everything and I feel like I want to give up, But I do push myself everyday and say I am doing right I don't want my son to grow up to be mean and I don't want my son to be disrespectfully to anyone so spanking, taking things away and anything else I can do I feel is right.

Lisa - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting Tammy:

Okee dokee.  Let's have Bible study!   (rubbing hands together)  Please forgive all the boxes, I can't seem to control them.

The quotes I'm answering are all from LISA:

Actually, Melanie, I've studied it out- and do not believe that God's word condones spanking.  The book of Proverbs is just that- proverbs.  If you're going to take it all literally you better take the verse that says if a man is given over to gluttony he should slit his throat.

That verse actually says this:  1 When you sit down to dine with a ruler, Consider carefully what is before you, 2 And put a knife to your throat If you are a man of {great} appetite. 3 Do not desire his delicacies, For it is deceptive food. and the main point of this verse is an appetite for wealth and power, not actual food, as is obvious as you keep reading that chapter.  I happen to be teaching a study on Proverbs at this time and I think the world would be a whole lot better place if more people would start taking Proverbs more literally.  The parts of Proverbs that are figurative are very clear.  Do I believe that Wisdom is an actual woman who stands in the street and yells?  No.  Do I believe that "the way of the wicked is darkness and they don't even know what they are stumbling over" (4:19) Um.. yeah, that's very clear by reading some of the posts in this forum.

 

The rod in hebrew is 'shebet' and was a 6 foot pole used both by the shepherd to ward off predators and guide the flock and also was used as a symbol of authority by the tribe leader.  It was looked to as a source of solace, comfort, and guidance.

That's lovely but it does not address this verse found in the same chapter you quote above:  Proverbs 23:13 13 Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike  him with the rod, he will not die. 14 You shall strike him with the rod And rescue his soul from Sheol. (Literally by striking him with the rod, you save him from hell.) The King James Version actually uses the word "beat" instead of strike.  This word is translated from the Hebrew word "Nakah" which does literally mean "to beat". 

The Rod is a figurative term in Proverbs for parental authority, discipline, and the Word of God. 

While this is true it is also used literally as above.

Jesus never hit any children.

Jesus, unless you believe the Knights Templar, does not have any children.  The Bible does not advocate people other than a child's parents spanking them.

   God does not punish his children.  In the Hebrew, the word 'chastise' actually has the connotation of 'come, let us reason together.'

Hebrews 12:6 says:  For those whom the Lord loves, he disciplines, and he scourges every son whom he receives. The word scourge used here is the Greek word "Mastigoo" which literally means to scourge as was used in punishment for criminals in those days.  I don't see anyone advocating actually BEATING their children and no one here is whipping out their cat-of-nine-tails so I think most Christians are already taking a less-than-perfectly-literal view of these scriptures. You certainly cannot say we're OVER literalizing them.

It just annoys me when fundamentalist Christians try to back up switching (or spanking) their children with verses in the Bible taken literally, but won't take other verses literally.

What a coincidence.  I happen to have the same problem with most of my fellow Christians!  But what really annoys me is people who have no real understanding of spiritual issues thinking they can interpret the Bible.

What are the fruits of the spirit, Melanie?

That would be LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS AND SELF-CONTROL  All of the attributes that people have been instilling in their children for thousands of years by prayerful, judicious, thoughtful, loving use of spanking.

(OUCH) Guess she told you lol That was an amazing post!

 

Amber - posted on 07/11/2009

My Mom had a friend that was in a wheel chair. She would have to wait for days for her kids to forget. And get around her again so she could discipline them. So my Mom was what if something happened to her to be in a wheel chair. So she came up with the 1, 2, 3. method on the count of three you better be in front of her to get punished (spanked or smacked ) or you really get it! I raised my children the same way. I don't believe in time out. I am not saying it don't work. But my theory on time out is what you getting them ready for (time out) jail or prison. After a life of time of out whats a few years???

Julia - posted on 07/11/2009

I agree w/ u completely! My daughter is 4 & in the tatrum stage. Everyone says time out & we do that also, but sometimes she wont even sit. So my opinion thats when u turn to spanking. And yes she also now knows when mommy & daddy says no thats what we mean.

Gina - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting Cindy:

As a stay at home Mom with 4 little ones, age 5 and under, I did my fair share of spanking. Never in anger, and always as a last resort...when time outs, and taking away privlegies didn't work.
My children are now adults, 1 works and is in college, 2 others work full time, and 1 is a stay at home Mom. They are in no way, mean, violent, disrespectful young adults. At family get togethers, sentences will actually be laughingly started with " Remember that time I got a spanking for..."

Sounds like you had the right mixture.  That is the key.  I do not believe in beating a child into summission or in anger, but a swat on the bottom as a "wake up call" I feel is appropriate.  When my four children (now 29, 26, 22, and 13) were little they knew what the word NO! meant when I used it.  Occassionally when they continued to touch "pretties" or do something inappropriate they might get their hand tapped.  If they did something that put themselves or some one else in danger (throwing something, run into the street after a toy,etc.) you bet they got that swat.  I'm very proud of the way they turned out.  All 3 boys became Eagle Scouts, athletes, honor studentsand musicians.  One is an electrical engineer with a wife and 2 children.  Another is a heavy equipment mechanic and the third is an architect.  My daughter is an honor student, musician and performer, and is involved in the community.  I'm not saying they are perfect.  We all love our kids and could boast forever I'm sure.  What I am saying is that   as a parent we have to decide what discipline works best for each individual child and use it consistently so they do become responsible, productive adults.

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/11/2009

Lindsey - you don't threaten a time out - that isn't the right method - the actual thing that you are supposed to do is to take a time out. you stop what is going on & you help your child to calm down and teach them to behave correctly - you are not supposed to punish a child to discipline them. You are supposed to be teaching them self control & the proper way to behave. I could beat someone & then explain to them why I did it but it wouldn't change the fact that I just beat them. Their is no just or right reason to hit someone, child or not. Violence is not the answer. It is a fact of life that humans are violent. Along as we go on raising the children of this world by hitting them instead of accepting that their can & must be a better way to do things we will continue to have violence in our world.

Lindsey - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Lindsey:

I believe that certain children need a swat as a form of discipline. If you have never had to spank your child...bravo to you...but don't look down on the rest of us who do. We don't like to spank them. It doesn't give us pleasure. But when you have tried every other way and it's failed, what is left?

And for me spanking is not an impulse. If I tell my daughters to stop doing something they know they shouldn't be doing, and yet they continue, I ask them, "Do I have to spank you to get you to stop?" I will explain to them why, I will give them time outs, and rather than yell at them or spank their bum I will try to smack my hands together to get their attention, but if all that fails I will spank their bum and explain to them why. It is not impulsive, it is thought out and they are warned.

That is what my parents did with me. I didn't feel hurt, or abused, I would be upset that I didn't get my way, but I thank my parents for raising me the way they did and for punishing me the way they did. If it weren't for them I wouldn't be the person I am today.

I have not cast judgment down on anyone that spanks their child, so for you to say "don't look down on the rest of us who do" suggests that you are feeling and intense guilt about your choice to spank your children.  I am not looking down on anyone, I am simply having a debate about spanking vs. not spanking.

Furthermore asking your children "do I have to spank you to get you to stop?" is not a warning, it's a threat and it becomes associated with fear and later with abuse.  To say to your child "stop throwing your toys or you will be put on the naughty chair/thinking chair/sent to your room for a time-out"....is far more effective than saying to them "stop throwing your toys or you will get a spanking", because they will stop throwing the toys to avoid a spanking, not to correct their behaviour.

Telling my daughter that she better stop or else she'll get a spanking is a threat but telling her that she had better stop or else she'll get time out isn't?  Do you hear the similarity in those two statements? OR ELSE????  How do you know if your child stops throwing toys to avoid a time out?  How is it different than my child stopping to avoid a spanking?  I have gone through this argument with my own mil when we lived with her for 10 months.  And I tried her methods.  I saw how disrespectful and disobedient my own daughters became.  I also saw my mil come to her wits end and spank my daughter after telling me that there are better ways. 

If you really read my first post you would have read that I explain to them why they got a spanking and why I asked them not to do it in the first place.  It's not like I just give them a smack and away we go.  It's just like you explaining to your child why they got a time out, or why they got their things taken away.  It is to correct their behaviour.  If I just smacked my child and walked away without an explanation then yes they wouldn't be learning to correct their behaviour but the same goes for time outs and removing privileges. 

Shyla - posted on 07/11/2009

I have 4 children so we tested each child because they are different. My first child you barely had to raise your voice or say no to her more then 2x so I didn't (at 1st) have to spank her. My 2nd daughter would not listen to anything and figured she ran the show until I started getting that behind and legs. My 3rd child, he was inbetween them both. We sometimes listen with me and all the time with his Dad, so it was back and forth with talking and spanking. My youngest is 14 months now. And shes the same but she too young, so when I tell her no most times it only takes 2x & she stops, but there are other times when she wants to do whatever so I smack her hands or legs. Pretty much whatever is causing the problem, I get the problem and explain why it's not good/bad 1st, talk 2nd, 3rd...depending on the age I spank or I WHOOP THEY BEHIND!! Now only thing I have to do with my 3 older children is give a "I'm going to beat your behind look" and they stop whatever it is. My mother only gave me one whooping, that I remember and that was enough for me. Of course, every kids is going to test you just to see what your going to do and how far they can get away with things. But it's up to you on how far ou let them go until they understand you are not going to take no crap off them. My mom did it, my grandparents did it, and that's how I do it. And it's working for me.

Andrea - posted on 07/11/2009

I have tried both, spanking and not spanking. I would say that being consistent, catching undesired behavior the first time and enforcing a consequence every time is the key. If you spank or give time out, communicating what was wrong, why it was wrong and what you would like your child to do instead is key. Giving a consquence before your child is getting on your nerves is also important. If you are out of control, it does not help to spank, because you are not teaching your child the lesson you want them to learn.

Melinda - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting Sharon:

For me, a swat on the butt or slap on the hand is situational. I don't always need to resort to that method of dicipline. My 4 year old son can be very defiant and downright disrespectful at times. I won't put up with his behavior. If I place him in time out or in his room, he simply does not stay put. A stern tone of voice doesn't always cut it. Half the time he laughs in my face and does just the opposite. A spank on the butt (always over clothes) will often reinforce that I mean business, and it is effective. It works for my son.

Please don't judge other parenting styles or imply that just because I do spank or slap a hand that I don't love my child. Don't imply that because I do chose to spank or slap a hand that I beat my kid. Please don't imply that because I do chose to spank or slap a hand, that my child is going to turn out to become a hateful and criminal adult. Please don't imply that because you do not spank or slap a hand, that you are a superior parent. How I parent & dicipline my child is my business. I would never dare tell any of you how to parent & dicipline your child.

I agree with everything you said!  Almost everyone I know was spanked when growing up and they are all loving people now.  Each child is different and needs different forms of dicipline/guidence.  My first daughter didn't need much dicipline when she was younger.  All we had to do we say "NO!" and she cried but didn't do it again.  My second daughter, however, is very different.  She is the "poster child" for the terrible two's.  She is also full of energy and so fun!  But she challenges us more about time outs and other forms of dicipline - or al least she did.  I used to swat her bottom when she wouldn't stay in time out or in her room.  Now all I have to do is start counting to three.  Usually on "one" she stops because she knows that she doesn't want a spank. 

I surely don't want my kids to fear me or my husband- as in being terrified or not trust.  But healthy fear is good.  They need to know that you are the one in charge and that you mean business.  They also need to know why you are in charge - God gave them to us to teach and to guide and love.  they don't understand that dicipline is part of loving them.

I know I can't stand it when I go to a public place and parents are just letting their kids run wild without even trying to control them.  It seems like the don't know how to manage them so they just let the kids do anything they want.  I applaud the efforts of every parent who is trying to be consistant with following through on dicipline whether it be spanking, time outs  or anything else.

Jaime - posted on 07/11/2009

I am seeing a common assumption among the parents in favour of spanking, that they are feeling looked down on or judged for their choices, so I thought I would share a professional perspective on spanking that offers insight into both sides of the debate:

Last night I was reading "What to Expect the First Year" by Eisenberg, Murkoff, and Hathaway, and I came across this:

To Spank or not to Spank...
Though spanking has been passed on from generation to generation in many families most experts agree that it is not, and never has been, an effective way to discipline a child. Children who are spanked may refrain from repeating a misdemeanor rather than risk another spanking, but they obey only as long as the risk is there. They often don't like or respect the people who hit them and frequently don't learn to differentiate right from wrong (only what they get spanked for and what they don't get spanked for)---a prime goal of discipline.
Spanking also has many negative aspects. For one, it teaches violence. Child beaters and wife beaters are almost always former victims of beatings themselves, and many a child who whacks a peer and is asked, "where did you learn that?" will respond with "from my mommy (or daddy)" For another, spanking teaches children that the best way to settle disputes is with force, and denies them the chance to learn alternative, less hurtful, routes to dealing with anger and frustration. It also represents an abuse of power by a very large, strong party against a very small, weak one. And it can lead to serious injury of a child, often unintentionally, particularly when it is done in anger. Spanking after anger is cooled, though it may do less physical damage, seems even more questionable than lashing out in the heat of the moment. It is certainly more cruelly calculated, and it is even less effective in correcting behaviour.
If it's inadvisable for a parent to spank a child, it is even more inadvisable for another person to do so. Though with a parent a child is usually secure in the knowledge that the spanking is being administered by someone who cares; with another person there's generally no such security. Sitters, teachers, and others who tend to your child should be instructed never to strike him or her or administer any form of physical punishment.
Most experts (and parents) would agree that a sound smack on the hand or bottom may be warranted in a dangerous situation to get a serious message across to a child too young to understand words--for example, when a toddler wanders out into the street or approaches a hot stove and a stern reprimand doesn't do the trick. Once comprehension is established, however, physical force is no longer justifiable". (found on page 339)

Jaime - posted on 07/11/2009

Quoting Lindsey:

I believe that certain children need a swat as a form of discipline. If you have never had to spank your child...bravo to you...but don't look down on the rest of us who do. We don't like to spank them. It doesn't give us pleasure. But when you have tried every other way and it's failed, what is left?

And for me spanking is not an impulse. If I tell my daughters to stop doing something they know they shouldn't be doing, and yet they continue, I ask them, "Do I have to spank you to get you to stop?" I will explain to them why, I will give them time outs, and rather than yell at them or spank their bum I will try to smack my hands together to get their attention, but if all that fails I will spank their bum and explain to them why. It is not impulsive, it is thought out and they are warned.

That is what my parents did with me. I didn't feel hurt, or abused, I would be upset that I didn't get my way, but I thank my parents for raising me the way they did and for punishing me the way they did. If it weren't for them I wouldn't be the person I am today.

I have not cast judgment down on anyone that spanks their child, so for you to say "don't look down on the rest of us who do" suggests that you are feeling and intense guilt about your choice to spank your children.  I am not looking down on anyone, I am simply having a debate about spanking vs. not spanking.

Furthermore asking your children "do I have to spank you to get you to stop?" is not a warning, it's a threat and it becomes associated with fear and later with abuse.  To say to your child "stop throwing your toys or you will be put on the naughty chair/thinking chair/sent to your room for a time-out"....is far more effective than saying to them "stop throwing your toys or you will get a spanking", because they will stop throwing the toys to avoid a spanking, not to correct their behaviour.

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/11/2009

Opps.. typing with a broken finger - I meant we all want to be good parents!

Christina - posted on 07/11/2009

I touched base in the other forum about this, so again I can only speak from my own experience. I have a 2 year old girl and 4 year old boy; they're not always angels, but I must admit I tend to make other moms a little jealous. I have never spanked them, but I did start to swat their hands after the 2 year mark. The swatting only comes after verbal warnings and a final count to 3; then I ask them if they want their hand "smacked" and they have the choice to stop what they are doing or continue the behavior. Living in the "Bible-belt" I have plenty of friends that believe in spanking and I must say their kids are nowhere close to being as well behaved as mine. I know people may believe its in the genes, but I strongly disagree. In fact I waited so long to have kids because my parents always threatened me that my kids would be my payback [for being such a bad kid]. My childrens father had [and has] ADHD and I was a "hyperactive" child, put that together with stubborn and you truly would believe I would have demon children. I think the reason my kids are so good, is not necessarily because of how I discipline them, but because of how I love and respect them. I felt very unloved growing up (spankings, soap in the mouth and harsh, harsh words). I just don't think little kids should have to go through that. My sole goal for being a mom is to make sure that my kids have a positive childhood and have great memories of me. I say do whatever you are morally okay with, but keep in mind how you felt at their age... because after all, they are a little piece of you.

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/11/2009

Just because something worked in YOUR childhood does not justify it being good. You knew no alternative so you grew up believing that was the only way to correct a situation. To the posts that state it is a last resort - only when warrented or absolutly needed.... What would you do if spanking was NOT an option? To the posts that pose the question what to do once you try time outs & this or that... Make spanking NOT an option. You all have said it doesn't feel good to spank or you don't enjoy it - So why do it? It is that simple - Stop. Make spanking NOT an option. No there is no one way to raise a child but we ALL know the obvious ways to NOT raise a child - none of us want to allow our children to do things to harm themselves & we all want to raise well disciplined children - MOST of all it is clear in ALL of these posts we all care & we all want to be goof parents. To those who don't think NOT spanking doesn't work for them you may always feel like that but don't justify it for anything other than what it is. You may not want to read an article or a book to find an answer but then maybe you don't really want that answer? AGAIN just because something "works" doesn't mean it is the best way & don't we all want the best for our children?

Jaime - posted on 07/10/2009

i was spanked by my father, grandfather, and teachers at school i still remember everything that i did to deserve those spankings and i did deserve them! i was never hurt by these people, and i still to this day have the utmost respect for them. that having been said i was also abused and severely beaten by my mother. i don't recall what i did any individual time this happened, sometimes it happened for no reason at all!!! i never learned any thing from it and i haven't spoken to her in years. i fear her with out respect only fear, because she is unpredictable and dangerous. i definitely know the difference between spanking as a loving last resort discipline to show you mean business and child abuse. i do spank my child when it is warranted, but i am very against child abuse. those of you who think those are one in the same have never experienced this for your self. no one should hit their child with any object and parents shouldn't discipline there children while angry. kids should be sent to their room or given some kind of warning first and then a talk after so they are clear on the lesson they needed to learn.

Deirdre - posted on 07/10/2009

I read about half of the first page of posts before I threw my hands in the air and decided to just speak my piece and keep it moving. We are all entitled to our opinions, but I am not going to judge anyone's parenting style because we all do what works for US. However, I disagree with and dislike those comments insinuating that people are bad parents and are harming their kids in some kind of way because they spank them.



What my mom did to me growing up would be considered beatings. I'm 28 now and where I grew up, people wouldn't bat an eye if they saw a child getting spanked, tapped, hit-whatever! I got "whoopings" so bad sometimes that I was left with welts. One time she swung the belt and the buckle hit and bust my eye. Am I damaged? No. Do I resent her? No. Have I ever been in any kind of trouble with the law, or just any trouble outside my home? NO! What I am is a mother of a soon to be 6 month old preemie son and a productive member of society.



I never want to see my son in the kind of pain I endured from being "whooped", but I fully intend to use physical reinforcement. No I am not going to beat him, but if a swift swat is in order after ALL ELSE fails, then so be it. I'd rather spank him now than have the police beat him into a coma, or even worse his grave, later when he becomes some sort of menace due to lack of home training.

Leslie - posted on 07/10/2009

We spank as well. I know many people my have their opposition on it, however it works well for us, and we don't have to do it very often. I always make a point to relax and never be angry or mad when she gets her spanking. After we make sure she understands why she got a spanking, and explain why that behavior is not acceptable. Honestly I believe that is what is wrong with so many children today, not that they don't get spankings any more, that discipline has become controlled by society and not the individual family. Many parents are terrified to discipline their children due to what society deems abuse/discipline. With that you have children growing up with out any form of discipline ( or passive forms of disciplines that are not always effective), and are having issues conforming to society (society thrives on rules enforced by legal discipline if you will - legal ramifications). Just sharing here, I think many parents brought up some fantastic points and great instigations that make you think. Awsome.

Martha - posted on 07/10/2009

Quoting Marta: The key to discipline is consistency. Don't give up. You keep doing it until your child understands you mean it and knows you are not going to give up. Yes it is hard  but it works. Spanking is a short term solution.

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Marta:

So, here's a question for all of the anti-spanking moms: when time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, you've taken away all of their priveleges, you've counted to three, you've given them three chances, you've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what do you do? I want an honest answer none of this read this book or that guide/article but a straight honest answer for a straight and honest question!

I would not spank my child even if I had exhausted all other forms of discipline.  I believe that if non-physical forms of discipline are no longer effective then the child's behaviour has become much more complex.  Spanking a child does not guarantee the desired behaviour parents are seeking with the punishment, and although some parents believe that it is effective, I very much doubt that parents would condone physical discipline of their child by anyone else (and if spanking is all that works, how then should others be expected to discipline them?)

Here's a question for the die-hard spanking moms:

When your child is at school and time-outs are no longer effective and your child thinks it fun, the teacher has taken away all of their privileges, they've counted to three, they've given them three chances, they've redirected their focus and they're still doing what they're not supposed to be doing then what does the teacher do?  I'm going to guess that the answer is "NOT spank the child".... 

 

No, the teacher would not spank they would call mom and dad and the child would be sent home. To get back on track you didn't answer my question what else can be done when the well known solutions have been exhausted?

Lindsey - posted on 07/10/2009

I believe that certain children need a swat as a form of discipline. If you have never had to spank your child...bravo to you...but don't look down on the rest of us who do. We don't like to spank them. It doesn't give us pleasure. But when you have tried every other way and it's failed, what is left?



And for me spanking is not an impulse. If I tell my daughters to stop doing something they know they shouldn't be doing, and yet they continue, I ask them, "Do I have to spank you to get you to stop?" I will explain to them why, I will give them time outs, and rather than yell at them or spank their bum I will try to smack my hands together to get their attention, but if all that fails I will spank their bum and explain to them why. It is not impulsive, it is thought out and they are warned.



That is what my parents did with me. I didn't feel hurt, or abused, I would be upset that I didn't get my way, but I thank my parents for raising me the way they did and for punishing me the way they did. If it weren't for them I wouldn't be the person I am today.

Jaime - posted on 07/10/2009

Quoting Christine:

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Tammy:

Quoting Denise:

Well my kids must be angels, because I've never had any need to spank them, they are 7 and 12 years old now, and are very loving, caring, kind and beautiful children...so I find it hard to hear that other people feel the need to spank their kids, especially when they are toddlers! My discipline with my kids when they were toddlers, was putting them in a quiet corner until they calmed down, and talk to them afterwards to let them know what they did wrong, and it worked!!

Yup, you lucked out.  I believe that if I had had only my second and third children (both girls) that I would also wonder why people ever needed to spank their children.  There are kids that just don't need to be spanked and lucky you if that type happens to be the only ones you got.  For those of us who have the really rebellious ones, spanking is really the best way to correct them and to motivate them to control their impulses.

Funny that you would use spanking to motivate your child to control their impulses when spanking itself, is an impulse discipline.

You sit there and say spanking is an impuls discipline.  You are making a statement that is not entirly true. If Any parent uses spanking impulsively or out of anger ,or out of frustation it is the wrong reason and wrong way to spank. But it is done RIGHT when it has been thought out (in advance of course,because of course you never know when your ganna need to do it) .  And when you know you choose to do it NOT out of anger ,but out of love. Whe I spank I am not angry ,infact I have the most self control anyone can have .  No child should see you angry while your spanking them,but they should at least know how you feel and that you disapointed them,maybe in a heartful talk before or afterwards. Thats what i think. So to sit there and make that statement against all parents who spank is not fair. because I agree, to do any discipline on impulse or without prior thought is not wise,but not everyone does this.

In my opinion, spanking is an impulse discipline because the frustration which has lead to the use of spanking, is what drives the reaction and the intensity which many parents admit to when they cry victorious at having "got the point across"!  Spanking is not done right if it's done in a calm, collected and well-thought-out manner.  The reason people spank their children is to elicit a specific reaction by hitting them hard enough to cause some form of physical response (pain/discomfort).  Spanking doesn't tickle, spanking doesn't feel like a friggin' massage, spanking hurts whether it is mentally, physically or emotionally!  If a parent has taken the time to calm down, collect their thoughts and think about a punishment for their child's behaviour then spanking should no longer be a consideration as the frustration has gone away.  And if you are going to have a heart-felt talk with your child before or after their spanking so that they know why they are being punished and how you feel about their behaviour, then why the need to spank them?  What does the spanking do at this point?  To calmly spank a child is unsettling because it suggests that a parent has had time to think about the situation and calm themselves and the child has likely calmed their behaviour as well, but they are still determined to "get the point across" with a swift swat, tap, slap, smack, whateverthehellyouwanttocallit!!!  It doesn't even make sense to spank a child when you are calm because if you are both calm then why the need for physical force?  To show authority?  And to that I ask, if physical force constitutes authority then why do we teach our children that using physical force on another person is unacceptable and furthermore, if physical force is the only method that works to show your child authority, then should teachers and employers also use the spanking method when your child misbehaves?  Spanking does not discipline your child.  Spanking does not teach a child right from wrong....communication is the key to discipline and that IS A FACT.  I have never had to spank any child in my care and I will not spank my Son.  If I have exhausted all other forms of discipline that I can possibly think of then I will seek help outside of my home to find out if there are deeper-rooted issues that are causing an aversion to discipline.

Heather - posted on 07/10/2009

I truly believe that there is no 1 way to parent every child. I have spanked my children. I don't feel good when I do it though. I too have very active children who seem to respond only when they have pushed it all the way to a spanking.



Now though, I count to three. They know if they push it to 3, they will get a spank on the bum (and this is so different from a beating). My kids know what the spanking is and they don't want it, so they are much more apt to comply with my request before I get to 3.



It is hard for me though. I see the craziness in saying to my children, don't hit, but it is okay for me to hit you if you've been really bad or disrespectful. I do find it easier to try logic now though...my daugthers are almost 3 and almost 4.



I don't want to be a mom who hits. I want my children to always listen and be perfect. I want them to not grow up being rude and selfish and selfabsorbed. I want my children to have a sense of the world more than just themselves. I don't have any answer to help anyone else out...but I have loved reading your responses.

Jaime - posted on 07/10/2009

Quoting Marta:

Once more I state the question for those moms who are against spanking (and I completely respect your decision not to and your feelings that it is not necessary because other forms of discipline have worked for you children) when one has attempted the time-out/naughty step (chair whatever you want to call it), taken all but the necessities away (no toys, no tv, no puzzles, no colouring, no painting, no movies, no treats/sweets, only water and milk to drink (juices are sweet and in our house we don't really drink juice often so the kids find it to be a bit of a treat) ), talked yourself blue in the fact, sent them to their room, counted to 10, put them in the corner, and even yelled at them what other methods could one use? Please don't tell me to read this book or that article but a simple straightforward answer on what other methods are out there and what they entale would be greatly appreciated. I've exhausted the other methods with my boys at nauseum; I now use them as precursors to spanking so my boys know that if they've had a timeout already for doing something and they're still doing it they will get a swift spank on their superior posterior. I don't like spanking but I've found it to be the most effective method for my boys and they don't laugh it off like they do timeout. So please, with all of your infinate attachment parenting knowledge enlightenten those of us who are "barbaric" in the way we discipline.

You started this thread and said...and I quote: "Spanking: let's just get all of the nastiness out here and call it a day!" and then you go on to ask the question later in your posts that if all other forms of discipline have been used and are not effective, what then do you do to discipline your child.  There have been several comments from parents in favour of spanking and several comments from parents that do not support spanking.  What confuses me is, if you "completely respect [our] decision not to [spank] and [our] feelings that it is not necessary because other forms of discipline have worked for [our] children"...then why would you later say: "So please, with all of your infinate attachment parenting knowledge enlightenten those of us who are "barbaric" in the way we discipline".  You have made far too many personal and emotionally-driven assumptions about parents that choose not to spank and those that feel it is abusive toward children.  I don't recall seeing any comment that directly targets one single person specifically and calls them 'barbaric' or 'abusive', etc. 

I think you got exactly what you asked for.  An HONEST debate...the truth and the facts can often be ugly and unsettling but that does not make them any less valid in a controversial discussion.  Just makes everyone uncomfortable when the ideals of society are put to the test.

And just to be clear...the people telling you to read a book or an article, or seek outside resources (such as counselling) are giving you a straight answer, because it has worked for them.  If you are resistant to these ideas because you would much rather just use spanking without considering that there are still more ways to discipline without physical force, then just say so...but for you to assume that when someone offers you a suggestion about a certain book, that they are not giving you a straight answer, it suggests that you are not happy with the answers you are getting because you are perhaps trying desperately to prove a point that spanking is necessary and effective and the "only thing that works for you".  If you have not tried these suggestions, then how can you possibly know whether or not they will work effectively?  Just something else for you to consider...

Stephanie - posted on 07/10/2009

Exactly what I say. I was brought up on spankings and guess what I am a wonderful person. I am a firm believer of the old saying, Spare the rod spoil the child. My son is 2 and living terrible 2's up to the fullest. He is too smart for his own good so he will talk back and does lots of telling me what he doesn't want to do. Some I can deal with but when he becomes disrespectful I tell him I have no problem embarrassing him anywhere. I will spank him whenever I see fit and the people that comment in stores and such can have some too if they want it. If they think they can get away with something you better believe they will try!

Kim - posted on 07/10/2009

I remember when my mom spanked me....rare but always necessary....and by golly I learned my lesson!!

Jennifer - posted on 07/10/2009

Quoting Jaime:

Quoting Tammy:

Quoting Denise:

Well my kids must be angels, because I've never had any need to spank them, they are 7 and 12 years old now, and are very loving, caring, kind and beautiful children...so I find it hard to hear that other people feel the need to spank their kids, especially when they are toddlers! My discipline with my kids when they were toddlers, was putting them in a quiet corner until they calmed down, and talk to them afterwards to let them know what they did wrong, and it worked!!

Yup, you lucked out.  I believe that if I had had only my second and third children (both girls) that I would also wonder why people ever needed to spank their children.  There are kids that just don't need to be spanked and lucky you if that type happens to be the only ones you got.  For those of us who have the really rebellious ones, spanking is really the best way to correct them and to motivate them to control their impulses.

Funny that you would use spanking to motivate your child to control their impulses when spanking itself, is an impulse discipline.

but there is a differnce in adult impulse and child impulse... do none of us remember what it was like to be the child??? I always ask myself "self, what was life like as a child"? and I try to go with thay when I discipline my children. They are only 19 months and 5 months, but I started telling my oldest no at as soon as he was able to get into something, and when it came time that he tried to put his finger in an outlet, your damm skippy I slapped his little hand!! I would rather he get a little owie from my slap on the hand than be electricuted!! and when I believe that the punishment fits the crime, I spank. If I dont ever get my point or my authority accross now, when will I ever?? Im not violent about it, I believe one spank on a child that age is more than plenty, and he knows what I mean...

Tammy - posted on 07/10/2009

Lisa, clearly you are going to believe whatever you want no matter how specifically or clearly the Bible says it so after this post, I give up. It's just a little odd to me that reading it VERBATIM and taking it literally to be true is "my interpretation" but adding mystical meaning to it that is simply not there is somehow NOT "your interpretation". Despite the fact that after very careful searching I can find NOTHING that supports your interpretation of a rod as being "comforting" and non-physically correcting other than Psalm 23 saying that the Shepherd's "rod and staff comfort me". Even in that case, even if you totally discount any physical correction done to the sheep themselves, the "comfort" of it comes from the fact that the shepherd will beat a predator over the head with it and protect the sheep. It is still portrayed as something used to hit something with! A word study of how the word ROD is used in both the NT and the OT reveals that the words in the original language which are translated "rod" almost always refer to hitting something or someone. A small percentage of the verses use the term in the totally neutral sense of it just being a walking stick, these are mostly in the book of Numbers. (I actually thought there would be more of these, but actually the word is rarely used WITHOUT the connotation of hitting or conquering). There are some references which would be more properly translated "scepter" as in the decorated stick that a king uses or it may mean philosophically the power to rule over someone or something as in Psalm 110:2. In the New Testament, 1 Cor 4:21 even says, "What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?" which actually contrasts being corrected "with a rod" to being corrected using a more gentle approach. It's clear from the context of the verse that Paul is asking, "Are you going to listen to me if I say this gently or do I need to hit you over the head with it?" Even when used symbolically, the symbolism is of tough punishment not comfort and gentle direction. In Revelation a rod is used as a measuring stick or as a symbol of Jesus' powerful (and fearsome, if you read the book) final reign. Nowhere is there anything comforting about it. After checking every time the word is used in the Bible, I found only the following meanings: a very literal walking stick (just describing an event that happened to include a rod), a measuring stick like a yard stick, the symbol of power and might or a piece of wood to hit someone with. The last meaning is about 5 to 1 the most common usage. If you care I'd be glad to give you a list of the verses I looked up. A rod is a rod. I'm done. :-)

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/10/2009

One other thing - my Father used to hit me & then say he did it out of Love & NEVER out of Anger - Violence is still violence weather you are calm as possible when you do it or not - I will NEVER forget the anger in the simple ACTION of my Father when he hit to punish. Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words. I can tell you I love you but what do I show you? You can justify ANYTHING when you want to but it doesn't change the facts.

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/10/2009

Quoting Camille:

Well that's just it. If you hit a child because YOU are concerned about how you look...just imagine how THEY feel. Adults resorting to hitting is about the adult's frustration. I have been suscessful without spanking. I was spanked and it just did not good. When my son decides to throw a tantrum in public...I could not care less what other people think. I care about finding out what the problem is...communicating to him with a firm but loving response to his behavior and addressing his needs. If the public is looking down on a mom while her child is throwing a tantrum...they are wrong. All kids throw tantrums at some point and I'm sure they have seen it before. As for what I look like.... I look like a mom who is taking care of a situation with a toddler.

Amen Amen Amen Amen - I can't say it enough... Amen Camille

Lisa Marie - posted on 07/10/2009

Spanking is punishment. Spanking IS NOT discipline. Regardless of how you choose to raise your children understand the difference. The bible is NOT the end all and be all of MY world - not saying this to compete with ANYONE elses way of living - just advising that I would never use a quote from the bible to justify violence of anykind. "An Eye For An Eye Makes The Whole World Blind" - Gandhi - I will not spank my daughter ever. I also do not plan on screaming or yelling at her or counting to her. Connie is absolutly correct about using Love & Logic type behavior management. If there are parents who can raise their children WITHOUT spanking & people like her who can help raise OTHER PEOPLE'S children WITHOUT spanking that means to me that it is something that IS POSSIBLE. When you remove the alternative of spanking you will have to find a way. Anything is POSSIBLE when you try & seek out solutions. AGAIN - this is MY WORLD & MY BELIEF system... we each have our own... a great Logic based book is "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" By Becky Bailey - we all have a great responsibility to our children they deserve the best. Violence only begets more violence... you can argue it anyway you want but when you hit it is to control - I don't want to teach my daughter to be controled - I want her to learn the ability to control HERSELF.... I do not & will never see how hitting her will EVER do that.

Camille - posted on 07/10/2009

Well that's just it. If you hit a child because YOU are concerned about how you look...just imagine how THEY feel. Adults resorting to hitting is about the adult's frustration. I have been suscessful without spanking. I was spanked and it just did not good. When my son decides to throw a tantrum in public...I could not care less what other people think. I care about finding out what the problem is...communicating to him with a firm but loving response to his behavior and addressing his needs. If the public is looking down on a mom while her child is throwing a tantrum...they are wrong. All kids throw tantrums at some point and I'm sure they have seen it before. As for what I look like.... I look like a mom who is taking care of a situation with a toddler.

Camille - posted on 07/10/2009

The two things that come to mind are that some criminals are made not born. Kids are a reflection of their enviornment. I have volunteered and worked with children who behave disrespectifully and if you want an honest answer that I hope you will truely not be offended by, here it is. (Please receive this as simply what I have seen) When kids behave disrepectifully it is because they have seen it done around them and they have learne that it is an acceptable way to behave. For instance, I really had to put my foot down about my son's father arguing with me or being disrespectful to me in front of our child. We now have disagreements in private. I could see the stress in my son and his behavior change to imitate what he was seeing in us. Hitting a child is not even about the child, it's about the adult's frustration and anger at not being able to communicate with their child in a way that they respond approporiately. It just sends a message that say acting out in a disrespectiful way is one way to get my parents attention. And truely all they want anyway is our attention (Good or Bad; positive or negative). Kknow this each parent has to figure out what works for them. I don't spank, but the tone of my voice works just as well. My son is sure when Mommy means business. I got spanked and I just want to find a better way. There just has to be one.