Spanking too hard

Heather - posted on 06/29/2010

Time out for all of you.

You say your husband is frustrated; is he talking to you about that? Is there something specific or just life in general? Can you help him with his frustration and in turn get his assurance he will get some help to control his temper.

It seems to me that there are many things going here and perhaps your daughters outburst was the straw that broke the camels back.

If I was in your position, I'd remove myself and my daughter - friends, family, anywhere away from my husband and where there would be loving, supportive people around.

Then when things have calmed, start talking: about the frustration, the spanking, family counseling, anger management etc. If he won't change or try and meet you half way, then perhaps the marriage is over.

Stand your ground. You've shown already by asking him not to spank her where the line is. He crossed it. Simple.

Good luck to you and your family.

~Jennifer - posted on 06/29/2010

Ladies,
Thank you for your replies.

Jennie - posted on 06/29/2010

There is no excuse to leave marks when trying to displine your children. If he is under alot of stress then it needs to be so that he not punish while angry. That is when things get out of control. Explain... If your angry, You should count to 10 slowly and calmy... Send the kidos to thier room and wait till your fully calm. While I don't agree that sending the kds to thier room is great for some punishments, it works well for others. I have myself spanked my children, but NEVER EVER to the point of leaving marks and only on the bottom. I am so sorry that your having to deal with this, I hope it all works out!

Kimberly - posted on 06/29/2010

Do call the police, and get out of that situation. He has no right to take his frustration out on your daughter, out of spite to prove his point. This is child abuse, in a very mild form. Please take everyones advice and get assistance. God bless you both.

Gidget - posted on 06/29/2010

He needs help. it sounds like he cannot control his anger. He may have other stresses in his life(financial, work,etc.) He may feelout of control of everything. Many people cannot handle when a child is upset or out of control. they do not understand how to handle the situation and how to defuse it. Instead it becomes a power struggle. your husband needs to learn the boundaries and other forms of discipline, especially since he is unable to control his anger. your child is not learning anything from being beaten. Only that it is OK to hit someone else when you are angry. I am sure that is not lesson either of you want your child learn. it sounds like you may need a counselor to help get your family back on track. you do need to protect your child.
Gidget

Jennifer - posted on 06/29/2010

I suggest you discuss what sort of parenting methods you want to use. I donlt agree with spanking of any sort. Just think would you like to be hit by him? No I think not so next time he tries hitting her stop him! Make it clear it is not acceptable.

Krista - posted on 06/29/2010

I see a lot of people saying "oh, it's just a handprint, not a bruise, so it's not abusive."



You could hit me and my sister with the exact same force. She would develop a gigantic bruise. My skin would barely redden. Some people just do not bruise easily, so it's really rather unfair to assume that just because they have not bruised, that they are not that badly hurt.



Bruising is a very unreliable indicator of abuse. I think the real key behind the OP's situation is WHY her husband spanked their child. He did not spank her to deter her from doing/touching something dangerous. He spanked her because she let out a typical three-year-old's scream of frustration. He spanked her because she asked for a second free sample. He is obviously spanking out of frustration and anger, not as a way to discipline. AND, he spanked her even though his wife -- the child's mother -- asked him not to. All of those are very alarming indicators. At the very least, the OP and her husband need to sit down and have a clear talk about discipline, what is acceptable and what is not. And if the conversation is not productive, then the OP really should consider telling her husband that couples' counseling is mandatory, if he wishes to save their marriage and his relationship with his daughter, because if he spanks her like that again, she WILL report him to the authorities.



It's not going to be easy, especially where he had never spanked her prior to this. But something is going on with him, and that little girl is paying the price. So it is time to give the husband a serious wake-up call that what he is doing is NOT acceptable.

Kelly - posted on 06/29/2010

PLease ignor the typos LOL I was writing this in a hurry on behalf of cooking dinner

Kelly - posted on 06/29/2010

Well i am reading this Dare to discipline book and it does help I fing myself loosing control and getting angry often over something my child does but i HAVE NEVER ABUSED HIM AT ALL i DONT SPANK OR TOUCH HIM WHEN IM THAT ANGRY to the fact of hurting him..but you cant let children run over you either handprint is nothing its easy to leave a handprint but if a bruise was to come up after wards then that over doing it and hitting way to hard,,,, I may not have people agree with me but go hit someone on the arm like spanking and see how fast and handprint pops up..it like when someone comes up to you and spacks you on your leg and a handprint it left.,., another thing is see how long the handprint stays if its still there 5-10 min after then yes it was to hard,,,but again Bruises show physical abuse.if your daughter thinks she can scream out of frustration cause she didt get her way and you let her or give in its only going to get worse go get the NEW Dare to discipline book by James Dobson you want regrete it you and your husband read it... its a christian book and Ive learned alot from it already...I hope this helps but just cause he leaves a handprint doesnt mean abuse,,,is he an Abusive person look at the facts before assuming..I am against abuse You dont know how bad I hate to see kids getting teated like that,, I want to help them all...

Rachel - posted on 06/29/2010

Lots of discussion and bickering for someone who is looking for support and answers. She is not trying to ask everyones opinion on spanking. She is trying to get support on a hard decision. It is always easy to be on the outside saying leave him now he is bad. Everything has consequences and leaving might now be the right option or it might be. If talking to your husband is an option then try to do that to see if you can reach some kind of understanding and to maybe see if he would get some help, maybe taking your daughter to visit a friend and give him some breathing time would help, I would say there has to be something going on in his life too. Be careful because if he is dangerous you need to try and find a way out. Good luck, at least you are looking for answers which is more then a lot of people do.

Linda - posted on 06/29/2010

There is a huge difference between a swat and leaving marks. Discipline needs to be done with a calm heart and only to teach a lesson - not to hurt a person. It should always be a last resort followed by a short timeout to think about it and then a reconciliation and conversation about why whatever they did was wrong. Using word pictures they can understand does wonders. Take time to love your kids and guide them with patience all the while making sure they understand the boundaries. Maybe she was trying to communicate with him and he wasn't understanding or listening. If his type of reaction would be allowed to continue and she makes it to adulthood, he will regret it when she can't stand him because he didn't love her enough to care about what she was trying to say or do. Protect your daughter! That is your role as her mom! And remember, if he's hitting her out of frustration, chances are you will be next!

Lindsay - posted on 06/29/2010

You need to report him! If he is hitting her hard enough to leave a mark or even reddening of the skin that is bu definition CHILD ABUSE!! Take pictures of the hand print and go to the doctor to have them as back up. If he were to go after visitation rights you need proof that he should NOT be alone with her!

Good Luck!

Brandee - posted on 06/29/2010

Like others have said, you wouldn't allow him to hit you, so give your daughter the same respect.. My husband and I have decided to use time out instead of spanking.. Yes, we were both spanked, and we turned out fine.. However, it did cause damage to the relationship between myself and my dad.. I think we could have been closer if I had not been afraid of him spanking me or yelling at me.. That is why those are two things I choose not to do in my household.. You have to be an advocate for your daughter and protect her, so do what you know in your gut you should do.

Jessica - posted on 06/29/2010

I am an advocate for spanking and I think this is too much. If you have to question if you are hitting too hard, you are hitting to hard. If the spanking does nothing but "make you feel better", you are not doing any good, all you are saying to your child is that it is okay to hit someone when they piss you off.

When I first got married my husband spanked my son so hard that it left a bruise of his hand. I have never been so mad. We had a long talk, apologized to Dev and has never hit out of anger again. We still spank our children but they are few and far between, we don't believe every situation merits spanking. We also believe that all children are different and that they all react differently to certain punishments, ex. my oldest hates to be alone so if he can't play nice we put him in his room alone, if my 5yr old acts up she gets a slap on the butt and it nips that really quick but if we spank our 4yr old he closes off so we have learned to talk it out with him.

He needs to know this is not okay and if my husband would have done it more than once I would kicked his ass and then made him leave. You are the only one who can protect your child so do it.

Marissa - posted on 06/29/2010

If you love him enough to stay with him, you need to find him professional help. Like Rogina said, if he is hitting your THREE year old to prove he can there is something seriously wrong with him. I know that if I were in your situation though, his ass would be out the door. I told my husband that if he EVER lays a hand on my son in an abusive manner that he is gone, no matter what. Our children were brought onto this earth to be loved, guided and taught. Not abused, in any shape or form. Good luck to you and your family. I hope you find your solution.

Stacey - posted on 06/29/2010

I think you all should stop the battling. We are all grown women here and there is no reason for being hostile towards each other.

SHERRI- First of all, things have changed ALOT since you were a child. As a society, it is frowned upon now. So you think it isnt physical abuse, but what about mental abuse?

What do you think she thinks about her own dad? If her dad hits her when shes that young (for something as silly as wanting seconds) she is more likely to think it IS ok to be hit AND to hit back. If it continues she will be one of the teen girls you hear about nowadays that come home beating by their bf's. Their responses are always the same "but he loves me". (The first person to get mad will be her own dad and he is the one that taught her that.) Thats the message she is being taught. IMO...She is too young to be spanked. If it leaves a mark at all it shouldn't happen.

Andrews Christy- I am very happy to hear that you tried to stop him, but he's now trying to prove to you that your aren't the "boss" of him and sad to say your 3yr old is taking the heat. Thats sad that he has to prove himself like that. It is your job as the mother of the precious little girl to be her voice. Do what you need to do, even if it takes removing her or calling the police. He needs to know that YOU are going to protect your little girl and that she IS important and that you are serious.

I hope the best for you and your precious little girl.

Nikki - posted on 06/29/2010

i think you all need to take a step back do you rally think u all getting in to a cussing match is going to help this mum ????

Becky - posted on 06/29/2010

I am not a spanker myself, but I'm not 100% against it either in certain situations. However, whether you believe in spanking as an acceptable method of discipline or not, in this situation, it was not appropriate.
1. The punishment did not fit the crime. In order for discipline to be effective, the discipline has to match the offense and teach the child a better way of behaving. All that hitting a child for asking for a second sample (which in my books would not even be something to discipline for. Just say no and continue on if you don't want them to have one!) is going to teach them is that having wants is wrong and they should be afraid of you.
2. If it leaves an obvious hand print that lasts for quite some time, then it is too hard. My boys have had some pretty good wacks to their noggins (accidental, not from us!) where the red marks have faded in less than 20 minutes!
3. The second spanking - just to prove a point - was absolutely out of line.
That is what would've sent me over the edge. After the first one, like you did, Christy, I would've talked to him about it and tried to set some guidelines for what we'd use spanking for and other methods of discipline we could use. If he responded to that by spanking my child again, just to prove he'd do what he wanted, I would've picked up my children and left. I wouldn't divorce him over it, but I wouldn't return until he agreed to counselling or a parenting course. I think that you need to make the point to him that you feel that he is crossing the line between discipline and abuse and that you are going to do whatever it takes to protect your daughter. If you don't do it now, things are going to get worse and in the future, if he seriously injures her, you will lose her too because you failed to protect her.

Megan - posted on 06/28/2010

wow.... i don't no what state any of you are from but the state i am in if you spank your child and the state finds out about it.. your child gets taken away.... mark or not they are gone and you don't get them back... i have a 2 month old little girl and i am sorry to say this but if any one ever laid a hand on her i don't care if they are a family member or a friend or even her father they would be called on and they would never see my daughter again.... and the way i look at it is if you spank a child all it is doing is teaching them to hit others.... it's called TIME OUT... a 3 year old isn't going to understand why they are being spanked nor are they going to understand what time out is.... talk to them and tell them what they are doing wrong don't hit them it's not called for!!!!!!!!!!!

Iridescent - posted on 06/28/2010

Keri, don't you often need proof he's been abusing her, such as a report filed with a police department, in order to get the Protection order? Here you do.

Keri - posted on 06/28/2010

First of all, calling the police will get you no where, though none of us agree with what he has done, you are aloud to spank your own child ( it is his child ) in most states and corporal punishment is where this falls under, which makes what he's done not against the law. However, you can take him to court file for a Protection From Abuse (PFA) and take care of it that way, thats the legal way to do it, he would still be able to see her under strict supervision and would have to undergo counseling wether he likes it or not. I am a law major in college and so I know what I am talking about. Don't let him continue to hit her, it is too tramatic.

Charlie - posted on 06/28/2010

Well im glad your "thoughts " on abuse are the minority , my reaction is legitimate both opinion wise and legally in my country , he can be charged for his actions .

Chatty - posted on 06/28/2010

THIS ISN'T A SPANKING DEBATE! If you're posting doesn't pertain SPECIFICALLY to the original post then please stop commenting....I'm sick of watching everyone bicker back and forth....we have other communities for that crap!



Sorry to the moderators....I just can't stand it anymore!

September - posted on 06/28/2010

I'd kick his ass out! Period!

Mandee - posted on 06/28/2010

i think that spanking is ok in some instances like if they r endangering there selves or others. I have spanked my oldest for putting both hands around his 2 yr old brothers neck and shaking him ...but theres also a fine line between spanking and beating and its imprtant to NOT cross that line.

Shelby - posted on 06/28/2010

It's sad to say that you are not the only one with that issue. There are several parents out there who spank out of pure anger. It's hard as a human to not show anger but it is IMPORTANT as parents to remember that the purpose of punishment is to teach your child that what he or she did is wrong. Try telling your husband that when feels frustrated to simply give himself a time out..take 5 mins to think about things..if your child has done something wrong then correct it calmly. It's hard with all the stresses in life to always think before we act but these are our children and there is no taking it back once its done. But ALWAYS remember YOUR CHILD IS THE ONLY ONE IMPORTANT IN A SITUATION WHERE ABUSE IS AN ISSUE. I wish you the best of luck and hope that you can make him understand the importance of controlling himself.

Henna - posted on 06/28/2010

Hi, I think you need to focus on how to prevent this from happening again, not what everyone’s state laws are. This is being of abuse because he spanked her for very very minor reason, this doesn’t mean he is a bad father or bad husband. First, you have to evaluate if he is or has been a hot tempered person and history of violence. If yes, then you have to talk with him and decide how both of you will chose discipline your child and see if he agrees with you. If he doesn’t, then speak with him and convince him to go for consoling. And mean while do your best to keep your daughter mostly with you. Breaking a marriage without trying to solve the problem is not good. try your best first. Marriage consoling are always the best chose. They cover all issues. Very important to address this issue don’t wait for it to happen again.

Iridescent - posted on 06/28/2010

I was abused as a child. There is absolutely no doubt. Prior to THIS moment, I never understood how the "circle of abuse" could honestly continue. Now I do.

I did not like being abused. I didn't like how it felt physically or emotionally. I knew this and still know this, and decided when I was a child that I would never cause my children this type of pain. I knew a mother is supposed to protect her children, to guide them in life, not beat them into submission.

How do I explain the differences in what my children are allowed to do based on age, and what I am allowed to do based on age? Simple. Age. And developmental level. And while they may not like it, they do understand that answer. That does not make growing up and becoming a parent a reason to have children you can beat! There is no age at which this is acceptable.

Sherri - posted on 06/28/2010

No I was never abused!!! I was hit with a wooden spoon all of maybe 2 or 3 times in all of my life. So no I wasn't abused. I just have a different take on this situation.



Yes I spank and because I am the adult I am allowed to do many things that my children are not able to because they are children. My children can't smoke, drink alcohol but I can. My kids can't drive but I can so how do you explain these things to your child?

Stephanie - posted on 06/28/2010

Sherri just because you are an adult does not mean you do not need dicipline!! As you are a human being and incapable of being perfect you do little things wrong every day! We all do! Maybe you cut someone off in traffic purposely or by accident, maybe you left the keys to your home in your front door opening up your family to potential harm, could be anything, there are still things that you may do as an adult that should be noted so that you are more careful in the future, so I ask again should your hasband hit you so that you are more aware not to do such things???

Hitting never really solves anything anyhow most kids who are spanked don't actualy stop the behaviour that gets them spanked they just become more careful about getting caught!!

Sherri it is clear that you were abused as a child and have some sort of Stockholm syndrom for your aggressors. Everyone wants to love their parents and admitting that what they did to you was wrong does not mean that you don't love them or that you are disrespectful, you can forgive them and move on. But by defending what your parents did to you you clearly don't love yourself and that is very unfortunate for you AND your children.

My next question to all spankers is how do you tell honestly tell a child that it's not OK to hit others when you go ahead and hit them???

Rogina - posted on 06/28/2010

I would be afraid. If he is hitting her simply to prove that he can, it is a telling sign that he has something wrong with him. If this just started, there is something going on that he probably needs professional help for.

Tina - posted on 06/28/2010

ok first of all i am not against spanking. however, you should never leave a mark that lasts that long on your child!!! if you feel that she is unsafe, then leave to where she is safe until the father can get the help he needs because he needs anger management. if she wanted a second free sample, he should have simply said no then if she continues, he should take her to the car while you finish shopping. explaining to her "ok you were naughty in the store now we have to sit in the car til moommys done because that is not how we act in a store"

Gina - posted on 06/28/2010

The poor little girl!! The fact that he hit the 3 year old because he's been having a bad week, and to prove that he 'just' can makes me sick. If he felt she is misbehaving, he could send her to her room,but she wasn't ,she was been a little girl.It worries me that he spanked his daughter again when the mum told him not to,that shows he has no respect for the mum. As mothers it's our job and our right to protect our children,when we allow them to be spanked and abused we have failed. There's no way I can ever let my husband spank my daughter even when she was really misbehaving, she's 12 now and always tells me 'thanks for looking after me and protecting me mum' and that's all I've ever wanted.

~Jennifer - posted on 06/28/2010

Ladies,

Why don't 'we' all take a step back and let some of the other members post their views on the OP's question, as it pertains to HER family.

Thanks,

~Jenn~
WtCoM Moderator

Sherri - posted on 06/28/2010

Whatever I so disagree and will continue to do so. Because I disagree isn't hurtful to anyone. You people are all so over the top it makes me laugh.

Krista - posted on 06/28/2010

Sherri, I have a few points to address with you. First of all, someone being the chief of police does not automatically preclude him from being an abuser. If you were spanked with a wooden spoon until you had bruises, then by today's legal standards, that DOES technically count as child abuse. Am I calling your dad an abuser? No. And at the time, what he was doing was likely not considered child abuse. But times have changed, and were he to do that today, then yes, he would be considered an abuser. And what your MIL did most DEFINITELY counts as child abuse. Breaking a broom over a kid's back? You think that's OKAY?



You do not get to define what child abuse is. The law does. And that is obviously a good thing, seeing as you only define abuse by the most extreme cases.



And for every kid who can look back on things like that and laugh, how many are there who now hate their parents and have very bad memories of their childhood? More than you'd know.



I also have a MAJOR issue with you being so dismissive of cases of abuse that do not fit YOUR definition. For all that you know, there could be women on here who had brooms broken over THEIR backs, and who have had a really hard time dealing with it. For you to be so contemptuous and dismissive, saying that it's not really abuse, is very, very hurtful.



The fact of the matter remains: the father spanked his 3-year-old daughter, and spanked her hard, for petty, stupid, trifling reasons, and as a way to prove a point against his wife. Whether it is abusive or not, he is still acting like a crappy dad and a crappy husband, and he needs a serious wake-up call.

Lyndsey - posted on 06/28/2010

First of all, I think you are over reacting. When you spank you child, it usually leaves a hand print. There is nothing wrong with spanking you children as long as they are aware why they are being punished. He should be calm and let her know why she is being spanked. Dont let your marriage end over it. That is a little extreme.

Marnie - posted on 06/28/2010

Wow what a heated subject as spanking always is. Either side will offer lots of valid points and this debate could go on forever. In your case though the debate has become a reality and so you need to decide which side you sit on. I also am a parent who is trying to find other ways to discipline my child as I feel spanking sends a wrong message. Saying this I also know it is up to each parent to decide for themselves.

I think it is pretty obvious your husband is in the wrong, the smack being to hard and the reason for the smack ridiculous. There are alot of people saying call the police, take your child away and if you think that this is going to happen again I agree. If not and if you think your husband has made a terrible mistake, talk to him, tell him that he left marks and that it is unacceptable. Tell him you are really worried and are thinking of taking your child away...maybe even show him all the posts on here so he can really understand the severity of the situation.

What ever your decision your daughter needs to be safe and must be your priority, I really hope it all turns out okay. I hope your husband realises his mistake and your family stays together.

Sherri - posted on 06/28/2010

I am an adult I don't need discipline when I was a child I was spanked. I was hit with a wooden spoon and I was hit till I did have bruises on my but and hands and here is the best part guess what my father was chief of police. Most of my friends were spanked and or swatted with a belt or wooden spoons. My MIL used to take brooms and break them over her teenagers backs when they did something wrong or when her son came home drunk she beat the crap out of him and kicked him with her heels. They sit around reminiscing about it now and how they laugh. My god I can only imagine what you people would be saying then and they were older teenagers and still getting wallaped. This was not even considered abuse now and open hand leaving a red mark is abuse PLEASE!!! You people have no idea what true abuse is a spank that leaves a red mark is so not abuse. Children who have been given black eyes thrown against walls, choked, bones broken, no inch of there bodies without bruises now that is abuse, starved, chained to radiators for years, teeth knocked out, forced to live in there own feces now that is abuse.

Lyndsay - posted on 06/28/2010

It sounds like a power-control thing to me. If you want to save your marriage, I suggest you show him that you are not going to to allow this sort of behaviour towards yourself or your child. I agree with others who have said you need to document these cases, and tell him straight up that if he ever does it again you two are leaving.

Chatty - posted on 06/28/2010

http://www.circleofmoms.com/e_Y_13391

Chatty - posted on 06/28/2010

I'm always disgusted by this topic! Once again, it's gotten completely off the original posters topic and turned into a fuckin' fight! GROSS!

For anyone interested in "Positive Behavior Strategies-Solutions without Smacking" please feel free to join our community....we'd love to have you! I really hope everyone has a wonderful day!

http://www.circleofmoms.com/e_Y_13391

Stephanie - posted on 06/28/2010

Sherri, under what circumastances would it be OK for your husband to hit you, open handed of course???

Sherri - posted on 06/28/2010

Loureen I find your reaction funny!! I still don't feel this child is abused. You people don't even know the meaning of the word. We may not agree with the reasoning behind it but hitting on her but with an open hand and leaving a red mark NOT ABUSE!! Even the law in my state says it has to be there for longer than 24hrs to be considered abuse a red mark people is not a bruise. HUGE difference!!

Charlotte - posted on 06/28/2010

:0)

Toni - posted on 06/28/2010

Charlotte I wasn't trying to say you smack your children just that I agreed with your point :-)

Charlotte - posted on 06/28/2010

i dont smack my daughter i been trying her with the naughty spot ( which not had to use for a while) she only 2 1/2 so might b bit young for it but she getting the idea of it as she hates being in one place for too long, my oldest is 12 so saying ul take his console away quite often works!

Toni - posted on 06/28/2010

To add to your point Charlotte although in the UK mild smacking/ spanking is legal (no oblects used and no marks left) the EU are pressuring UK officials to ban smacking completely as currently the Uk is one of only 5 European countries that allow smacking (France being another).



The EU argue that by allowing smacking to be legal it gives huge grey areas and allows people to 'get away' with abuse because there can be no difinative guidelines - as has been shown by this discussion with mums arguing that what the posters hubby did was acceptable. I do not understand how anyone can claim that hitting a child (be it by spanking or not) and leaving marks can be acceptable; as parents it is our job to stop this from happening.



I am anti-spanking and I am proud to say so - I feel there are great methods of disciplining your child without smacking them - it is not acceptable to smack an adult (obviously yes there are circumstances where this is fine adult consent and such :-) but never in anger so how can it be acceptable to do so to a child and a child that is so young also!

Ashley=) - posted on 06/28/2010

Your husband sounds like hes very frustrated over something and taking out on his child which is never okay..he needs to be talked to,only you can determine what to do,wether it be to

- Have him leave

-You leave

-Talk to him and he sees straight or call the police as you said.

Its you daughter and its your home.

Your the mother and its 100% your call.

LeAnn - posted on 06/28/2010

You need to stand your ground. If you don't feel the spankings are justified, you have a right to say so. Please be aware that letting the little one be spanked, leaving marks other than a hand print, which in itself can get problems started, needs to be monitored. Is he out to punish bad behavior or prove he is in charge. Don't lose the little one over an over zealous spanking.