To spank or not to spank

Lola - posted on 12/02/2008 ( 242 moms have responded )

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Upon reviewing some of the questions and replies to the questions I found it interesting to see the underlying debate about whether parents should spank their children or not. There are very strong feelings for both sides. I was raised by the belt and it worked. I dreaded getting in trouble and I greatly appreciate dicipline when I got out of line. When we were older, my mother joined a group called "tough love" which only seem to make things worse. They told her to stop spanking and start grounding or do time outs and such. When this happend I notice a VERY different behavior in my siblilngs (3) and I. I felt like I was getting off easy and rebelled a lot more. I do belive in spanking, however, there are certain circumstances that it should not be done, such as when you are angry-never hit out of anger that teaches a child to hit when angry. I explain the difference between a bad consequence for actions and hitting out of anger to my oldest, he grasps this very well, and so did I when I was younger. There also needs to be some constent boundaries and rules, if I do this, I get this as a consequence. It should never be left to whatever mood the parent is in at the moment. People are telling me spanking is wrong, although it isn't the majority of the parents I talk to. I just look at how things are going in the world today and see that the dicipline of old is being lost and i think it shows in how peopel behave today but that is a whole new topic anyway, I thought I would get some opinions on this topic.

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Connie - posted on 01/03/2009

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If parents are against spanking and their rules are followed then more power to them. With my kids, I really only had to spank them initally a few times and now all I have to do is say "One, Two.." If I get to three, I spank. So i did have to do it in the beginning, now I NEVER get to three. So easy! But I had to present and enforce this rule sometime around the terrible two's age.

Amy - posted on 01/03/2009

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Nipuna- I agree with you any shepherd who is worth his weight in gold will train his sheep to respond to the sight of his rod and better yet "to hear his voice only". Most likely though that level of respect for his rod will not be gained without the sheep first feeling the shepherds rod on their backside a few times when they have strayed away from the flock into harms way & possible danger. I love that our Heavenly Father uses the analogy of us being like sheep and Him as our Good Shepherd. Sheep are the stupidest animals in the world. They have been known to follow one another off the side of a cliff to certain death without a shepherd there to stop them. When we know our Heavenly Father and have a relationship with Him, like a sheep who knows their shepherd, great comfort comes in knowing our Shepherd will use what ever means possible to protect us from following foolish behavior and stupidly walking off the side of a cliff to certain death because we didn't know any better. How similar is our job as parents.



BTW Deanna..."Shepherding A Childs Heart" IS a VERY good book for this subject (one of my favorites)...the author is Ted Tripp. Another great book is "Making Children Mind Without Losing Your Mind" By Dr. Kevin Leman.

Shannon - posted on 12/24/2008

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Well, I didn't have time to read all of these,but wanted to put my two cents in. I was spanked as a child. My sister as well. Although when she became a teenager they resorted to using the belt, because they didn't know any other way. It didn't work, she just rebelled more. Did I fear my parents, absolutely. Did I respect their method, no way. I was always a good kid, by nature. However, when I had my own child, I knew I would not use the same discipline. Why? Because it was humiliating and all I remember was the pain, not why it happened. When my daughter was a baby my mom saw that I was reading a book on how to discipline a child without using force. Her comment was, "You need a book to tell you that?" She thought there was only one way, her way. Because I was raised being spanked, my urge when angry was to do the same. It took a lot of self-control not to hit my child and use other means of discipline. However, the longer I did it, the easier it got. My child is now 8 and she is one of the most well-behaved children I have ever known. She has the utmost respect for me. She doesn't fear being hit, she fears disappointing me. By the way, my mother has since realized that there is a better way!

Siridyal - posted on 12/24/2008

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Yes, hitting, spanking, using the rod, however you want to call it, it shows you need physical violence to get your point across, so when you think you're child is listening, or so called "behaving" maybe we should ask ourselves the "norm" of well behavior. It is different for everybody, but when we tell our children that the way to get them to listen is by getting a hit, then that says it is ok to use your hands to get your way....this can create problems for the kids later on especially in school.

Catherine - posted on 12/24/2008

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I was raised old school, spanking was the ultimate punishment and usually when my Mother had had enough. It was very rare that my Father would punish us, because by the time he got home, it was already done. So when I started my family at a young age (19 ), I also asked myself the same question...The most important thing you can do is to become educated, not only child studies, but in collage or university. The first thing that we try to teach our children is to be unique, independent,and to value his or her opinion and the opinion of others, to be strong and to stand up for what he or she believes in. Punishing your children by spanking is the absolute opposite of what you try to instill in your children!!! It's demeaning to have to physically spank your child to render to you. Slaves were whipped to oppression, to obey. The important thing to remember when you punish your child is that you stick to it and it might be difficult now adays with all the mono-parentals. If your punishment is " no friends, no cell,and no computer, and lights out after 8pm for 2 weeks"This is a life sentence you gave your child... let your "Ex" know about the punishment so it can continue on when your child goes to his or her fathers or mother.... If this doesn't work than do it in your time period (Ex: One week One week punishment two weeks, Do it when you have your child) The important thing to remember is to be consistant and to carry through, How many times do we set down rules and guidelines for our kids, and when they break these, and are punished, that we donnot carry through??? Trust me, we know that our children are quicker and awhole lot more intellegent than we can ever hope we will be... Good, don't spank them for this

Natalie - posted on 12/24/2008

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yes lola i agree all kids should be disciplined when doing something wrong..of course they need to know whats allowed and whats not..i just dont like when people say that if they arent spanked they wont grow up the right way..yes lack of discipline does teach kids they can do whatever they want..but everyone uses their own form of discipling whether its spanking time outs..etc...i seen kids who came from good families grow up to do wrong things and kids who came from not so good families grow up and do better for themselves so i think it just depends..but i agree lol i posted too many times to this thread more then expected..so happy holidays to everyone..!!see you in another thread!!

Lola - posted on 12/24/2008

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To all,



I just wanted to say thank you for contributing to this discussion. I don't know about you, but I rather like having discussions about parenting methods. I have learned more then I thought I would from the responses and am amazed at how many people have responded and shared thier viewpoints. Thank you all and Merry Christmas (or Happy Holidays whichever you prefer).

Lola - posted on 12/24/2008

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Barbara,



That is a good question and I can see your confusion. This question might not be so easy to explain. For me, I don’t think there is a risk at all. I went though it and I was fine. I take the time to explain to my children why they are receiving negative consequences so they know it is because of their actions and not some cruel intentions. Keep in mind, I don’t spank my children for every infraction, I use a variety of methods, but when they are at a point when all other methods fail, sometimes a spanking does work. Each time I discipline I review the situation with him. I even tested it yesterday to see how I was doing, I asked him why mommy spanks him, he just (smiling while he said this) because I was being naughty. So this tells me he is making the connection for the lesson. I don’t see this of having any chance of leading to the negative affects that people are speaking about or that they studies show will happen if done properly. I do realize that every good thing also has a bad side (people abusing power) to me it is the abuse of that power and authority that leads to the bad things you speak of. For me the risk comes from people abusing their roles of parents. I saw most of the people who where opposed to spanking were either beaten themselves or were never spanked as a child. I would be interested to see studies from people who were spanked and understood this was a negative consequence to bad behavior and compare those figures to see if they still produce the same results. Again, these are just my take on this and I do not claim this to be fact, but from my life and what I experienced I have learned to draw these conclusions.



Natalie,



I can see your frustration “omg so many kids aren’t messed up from lack of spanking or discipline...its from lack of love “ I would agree, I don’t think that children are messed up because they weren’t spanked, it is because of the lack of discipline. There is a difference. Discipline is done out of love to nurture your child to be a better person. It isn’t healthy to cave to their every demand and not address bad behavior. People might think “love” is only about the positive side but sometimes it is necessary to do the hard thing (become the “bad guy” as I thought my mother was) and implement discipline. Sometimes children also need to make their own mistakes, even though you know they will probably get hurt in the process (such as riding a bike, they could fall, finding a boyfriend/girlfriend they could get broken hearts, etc) Love isn’t always easy. I was reminded of this lesson yesterday. I work temporarily at the fire department and we are collecting toys. We have a barrel outside the stations to put toys in for families who can’t afford to buy presents for Christmas. As you can imagine from the economy the need is higher this year. Anyway, twice people tried to steal the toys out of the barrels one was even an adult, the second attempt was children. These are the things that frustrate me most. When parents don’t take the time to teach their children about their behavior being good or bad. Lack of discipline leads children to think they can do whatever they want. It doesn’t matter which form of discipline you use (I am not talking about crossing the line and being abusive).

Deanna - posted on 12/24/2008

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p.s. Your children reflect your attitudes. The biggest help in raising children is making sure that your attitudes are right and that you are demonstrating tangible love to them. If my attitudes are wrong, it will cause them to have wrong behaviors. They still need to be held accountable for their wrong choices, just be aware when you need to change something about you.

Deanna - posted on 12/24/2008

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You are right in your opinion. I have tried both. Spanking works best if it's done right. No anger and consistency is always the key. If you start young, you don't have to spank very hard at all to get the desired results. When they are much older, you have to be careful that you don't injure them, but the spank has to be hard enough to matter. And, spanking is not just to change outward behavior, but it also needs to address attitudes of the heart. Yes, telling mommy 'no' or having a bad attitude is something that needs to be corrected. I strongly recommend the book "Shepherding a Child's Heart". I can't remember the author, but you can find it at most Christian book stores.
It really was a good book, it's just been a while since I've read it, and both of my copies are loaned out!

Lola - posted on 12/24/2008

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Elizabeth,



Thank you, that helped explain your point of view better. I still think spanking, time outs, taking away privileges are logical consequences and not punishments. They are teaching tools used by parents to show that bad behavior leads to negative consequences. Punishment in my mind is and will always be done out of revenge and hold malice intent such as I described in my posting about the difference between consequence and punishment. I can see your take more clearly now though.

Natalie - posted on 12/24/2008

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omg so many kids arent messed up from lack of spanking or discipline...its from lack of love..im sorry im tired of people saying or saying something that means if you dont spank your kids they will grow up the wrong way.i dont understand how some of yous can really try to push the issue of spanking if people dont want to or dont believe in it then thats their business..ill let yous know how my daughter is doing in a few years..i can bet almost anything on it she will be fine thanks..

Kimmy - posted on 12/24/2008

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Wow! I can't believe the outpour from this post! Fabulous! I am not going to point fingers, but I am sure the non-spankers w/ infants... your perspectives on spanking will change once your child/children are older than 2 years old. I will not get into specifics about our discipline practices at home, but I will point out that we have very well behaved kids who respect their parents and others because of the discipline measures we use w/ our children. We always get compliments on how well our children are behaved. They know they can't pull the wool over our eyes, and they know they can't manipulate us. We are their friends, but we are their parents first, to teach them obedience and respect and to make the right choices in life in order to develop into successful and well-adjusted adults. They are not perfect, we help them correct their poor choices, but they are not the disrespectful and misguided youth I see every day.. every where I go. And, I'm happy for that.



I will add that each child responds differently and has different emotional needs. What works for one child, will not necessarily work for another... you have to find out what will effectively work for each child and STICK with it!



P.S.

I refuse to refer to my kids as "social animals". They are my children and they are loved with all my heart.

Jamie - posted on 12/24/2008

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I just have one thing to say!!! Parenting by the Book, Gods way is perfect when it comes to disciplining your child. I just got finished reading that book and everything makes sense. My kids have done a 180. Spanking a child is very important to correcting their misbehaviors. But the real point that the book is making is "the rod" represents discipline, not spanking. That is why so many generations ago kids were so much more behaved. We as generations have lost that need to correct our children with God's way of disciplining. Thats why kids are so entirely messed up now adays. And thats how the Bible predicts children in the last days........

Natalie - posted on 12/23/2008

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candice...i dont spank my daughter..but if your way of discipling is spanking then thats your business..but i dont see how you could use a paddle..im a little confused..how old are your kids?3 and how old?i dont know maybe its just me but your discipling your kids with a paddle..i think thats extreme..

Candice - posted on 12/23/2008

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we too use spanking in our household. we call them reminders because that is what they are, a reminder of the rules when our words or timeouts have not worked. because of our consistency in discipline it is not very often that we get to reminders, but there is a place for them in our house. we too talk all the time even to our youngest who is too young to grasp the concept now, about making choices and how a bad choice has a bad consequence. our 3 year old understands this perfectly since it has been talked about since she was a toddler. we also never spank when angry, and we also have chosen not to use our hands for spanking. our hands are for loving and our paddle is for the reminders.

Jennifer - posted on 12/23/2008

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Ok, I just have to say that while I agree with the occasional smack on the butt, I do NOT agree with hitting your child with anything but your hand. My mother used a wooden spoon when we were younger and one day, she smacked herself on the leg with it, and it stung so bad she never used one again. If you spank a child with your hand, you can feel exactly how hard you have hit them. If you use anything else you have no idea what your child feels.

After reading so many of these posts, I talked to my husband about the topic. We both agree that the occasional spankings we received as children never caused us to withdraw or withhold info from our parents. I always knew that I could go to them with anything. In fact, my husband had a much worse relationship with the man who raised him, not because he spanked, but because of the emotional abuse he heaped upon my husband. And the only tension in his relationship with his mother came from her not standing between them as a mother should. There are much worse things you can do to a child than spank them. I think spanking your child and then talking with them, as many posts have said, is better than withdrawing from your child emotionally. I think kids get over a spanking, but not from the coldness some parents use to emotionally control their kids.

And I will be completely honest here, I can't imagine calming down and then going to spank my kids. When they piss me off, and I smack, one time, across their butts, they know that I'm pissed off. They don't hit each other. They don't hit at school and never have. They are 11 and 9. I have very rarely spanked them, because I don't want to hit in anger, but then, once I'm calmed down, I don't see the point. Then again, I was raised by loud and passionate Italians. Lots of yelling, some throwing of things, the occasional cuff to the back of the head by an angry grandma, but always the exuberant love and laughter to temper it. And I think that makes all the difference.

Aimee - posted on 12/23/2008

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Well, I had a whole speech prepared in my defense but I don't think it's necessary to "defend" and to those few that are, it's not really necessary. I respect however someone wants to discipline as long as they discipline. That goes for both ends of the spectrum, if you don't spank "great", if you do "great" but let no one go to extremes. I spank...rarely but I do and only because they know and understand consequences. Spanking is rare and only for the times when nothing else will do. So, if you can raise your child without it great...I'd love to hear from someone who has grown children and NEVER spanked. I'd like those women to still be sane and not medicated. Just kidding! Best of luck to everyone and just always, always hug your children as often as you see them!!! It truly has more to do with LOVE when raising children than anything else in the world.

Charity - posted on 12/23/2008

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Just a little add on - I worked in a Prison for a while and let me tell you, if most of them would have been disciplined more severely when young, they would not have been in prison now.

Charity - posted on 12/23/2008

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Spanking never hurt me and it doesn't hurt my children. There is a line between it being a spanking and a beating - and I think we all as mature adults can figure it out.

My children know that if they continue to misbehave after Time out sits on a rug in a corner, and being sent to their room or stood in a corner they will get a spanking. I usually do not have to resort to spanking them, but when I do it conveys a solid message - do not disobey. They are 6, 4 and 5 months and spankings haven't hurt them at all ( no the 5 month old has not gotten any).

Lynn - posted on 12/23/2008

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Don't smack. It is bullying. Don't forget you are big and the child is small. You are teaching by example. Are you really not grown up enough that you have to resort to physical violence? Believe me you will regret any physical punishment you dole out at some time in the future. Make rules and be consistent about them;it may be tedious but it will have a more positive effect than lashing out.

Barbara - posted on 12/23/2008

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Lola (or anyone else who wants to chime in)- There is one point that I still have questions about in regards to why you choose to spank. If there is all this evidence that spanking COULD have all these negative results for your children, and there are other options for discipline that work just as well WITHOUT all of the possible negative results, then why start spanking? I have read that once you start to spank there is really nothing else that will work on children afterward, so I understand why you continue to spank, but why start?

Sandra - posted on 12/23/2008

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I would never hit a child.



It's not proper, even illegal, for my husband to hit me, why do my children have any less rights? Nope, there is no situation, ever ever, that would cause me to strike a child. Period. And I've had four, the oldest 15 - so believe me, every situation has arisen, and none warranted abusing them.

Chrystie - posted on 12/22/2008

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I think you are very wise in looking in to both your past & the past history wise to look at what worked for people. As you said yourself. You are not wonded by the spankings or "discipline" you recived as a child, but where shaped by it to make better choices. The goal behind spanking or discipline as a whole is not to hurt the child, but to guide them to make better choices. It's not something the parent ever wants to do or should enjoy doing, that would be considered abuse. And of coarse you should never spank out of anger, you should give your self a minute if you feel you need one to respond out of love. It should be hard & painful to spank your child, if it is you know you're in the right mindset to give them a spanking. I firmly belive you should 1st remind them why they are being discipined, then give them a spanking, then tell them that you love them no matter what choices the make & hug them. That way the spanking is sandwiched with love & guidence. It would be totally different to just go smack them one. That's not what it's about. The whole point is to discourage the bad behavior & show them that is't not ok, so they will have a spanking, but that you love them even after they made the choice that they made. We have personally raised all 4 of our children w/spanking discipine & we have 4 children that people love to have over & that teachers have told us repeditively are role model children. I don't say that to brag at all, but to point out dirrecing the children from what it wrong & pointing them tward right behavior does pay off! It is work & you do have to be consistant. Which is true of anything you want good results from right! :) I think you are on the right track. I think it is also important that it's done correctly so that the child learns from it & knows they are loved. :)

Carrie - posted on 12/22/2008

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Well, I can state that spanking is never good. Because nine times out of ten your spanking them when they get in trouble and well that means your spanking out of anger. How can you not cause you are angry at them when they do something wrong. I was beat by my father growing up. It started with a belt and then moved to a fist and then once with a knife. It is not ever ok to spank. But then again what is to say that timeouts and groundings work either. I have a 3 year old little boy and he is a little tyrant. Oh there is consistency in his life but he doesn't care what you say or do. He does what he wants when he wants to.

Michelle - posted on 12/22/2008

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In reply to Felicity: "if I felt you did something wrong and spanked/hit you, you would charge me with assault."

True, but whether we are or not, adults are considered raised. I am referring to little people that don't know/understand that rules are for their protection and therefore disregard them or just simply don't choose to try to remember. If as an adult I attacked another adult, I would expect to be charged. But then I was taught that only children need spanked........

Nipuna - posted on 12/22/2008

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I just wanted to share a fascinating author on discipline http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/pbr.htm



"Drawing from hundreds of studies, Kohn demonstrates that people actually do inferior work when they are enticed with money, grades, or other incentives. Programs that use rewards to change people's behavior are similarly ineffective over the long run. Promising goodies to children for good behavior can never produce anything more than temporary obedience. In fact, the more we use artificial inducements to motivate people, the more they lose interest in what we're bribing them to do. Rewards turn play into work, and work into drudgery."



"Rewards and punishments are just two sides of the same coin -- and the coin doesn't buy very much. What is needed, Kohn explains, is an alternative to both ways of controlling people. The final chapters offer a practical set of strategies for parents, teachers, and managers that move beyond the use of carrots or sticks.

Seasoned with humor and familiar examples, Punished by Rewards presents an argument that is unsettling to hear but impossible to dismiss."

[deleted account]

Lola...for clarification, 'logical' consequences are 'teaching' moments that we as parents do teach our kids skills to deal with problems or certain behaviours. The example I used was: when sibblings get into a fight, the logical consequence is to let them 'figure' out how to deal with the problem. Again, consequence (both natural and logical) are not punishment. Punishment is meant to take away certain priveledges as well as using verbal reprimands or getting physical. Both, logical consequences and punishment are very easily misunderstood, but they are not the same. If you re-read my post, I did not link logical consequences to punishment. Punishment is a whole in itself, although many people use the term "consequence" to describe it. In the example you gave about your son kicking the wall:

Natural consequence is: Damn, that hurt my foot, I guess I won't do it again.

Logical consequence is: Oh boy, I'm in trouble now...I broke one of the rules and mommy will be sad

PUnishment: I better run, here comes a swat....or I will lose my TV, or I better go to the time-out chair, because that is where my mom/dad will send me.



Hoping this can clarify some of the questions you asked me.

Lola - posted on 12/22/2008

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Nipuna D, Barbara, Amy,

The whole religious aspect is open to interoperation (just like religion itself). I have also talked about these in another post. If I remember correctly some of the arguments for “the rod” being a metaphor was in part due to the fact that Palms and Proverbs were poems and poetry uses a lot of these metaphors. There are however, mentions of the rod outside of these books of the bible. My mom drug me to church my whole life, as a result I am religious and believe in the bible. Some of the teaches that stuck with me on this topic range from God being a jealous god, he wants people to fear him as well as love him, he is the “father”, etc. it also mentions some of his disciplining techniques such as shown in the story of “Noah’s ark, Sodam and Gamorah (sp?), Moses-he let his people go into captivity for 40 years (?) before he was delivered by Moses, etc.

Nipuna, it was never suggested that the “rod” was used for beating a sheep to death, Only that it was used for correction. The staff was mainly used on the sheep, the rod was also used for scaring (and kill) predators to the sheep as well. You said “the shepherd will go to whatever lengths necessary to provide the finest grazing-including spanking a child to ensure the finest upbringing to provide children with shelter from storms and protection from enemies (bad people, but things events, learning how to control anger, etc). It all depends on how a person perceives the meanings, as you have said. Thank you for the website. I thought I had copied and pasted it into my previous post, but realized I didn’t, most of the things I talked about were from this website.

Barbara,

I think anyone could take any bit of information (not just religious books) to prove their points. This is why such things can probably never be proven true or accurate. In fact this is how lawyers make a living. They take law, look at precedents and such and try to find a way to use them to support their arguments. There is nothing wrong with doing this. I was just a little worried that from your posting you thought this was a bad thing. Yes there is a danger of taking things out of context, but as far as the argument about the “rod and staff” this hasn’t been proven fact by one side or the other, so all that there is available is how a person interoperates the information. For me, I believe it is true that the bible supports the use of the rod, just as much as I believe in love and forgiveness and mercy. It also says there is a time and place for everything (Ecclesiastes 3:1??) To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven…a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing…a time to love and a time to hate…a time of war and a time of peace..

So by following this logic, there is a time for discipline. I have to leave now, but can continue this later bye ;)

Felicity - posted on 12/22/2008

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This is debate that will go on and on my only thought on it is if I felt you did something wrong and spanked/hit you, you would charge me with assault. Just something for people to think about.

Michelle - posted on 12/22/2008

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Just a thought....I agree with reasoning with children. Once they reach an age of reason. I am assuming we are talking about spanking children say, 8 and under. 10 tops. By the age of 7 or 8, most kids can follow a story or thought to a logical conclusion. A four year old seldom remembers what you said 5 minutes ago if there wasn't something really interesting along with it. From what I read on here, every parent is interested in raising respectful kids that will be able to discipline themselves and make good decisions/choices. We teach respect by example, sure, but to INSTILL respect? Respect starts from fear. Not a quake in your boots, oh heck, I'm gonna die type fear, but fear nonetheless. I feared my parents. They were abusive. I feared my grandpa in a different way. I feared disappointing him. My kids are not afraid of me - my kids are afraid I will be 'pisadointed' with them when they misbehave. This is what teachers, troop leaders and playmates' parents tell me. My kids have fear - which translates into respect. Again, just a thought....may not work for anybody but me - and maybe it's just all semantics anyway :)

Lola - posted on 12/22/2008

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Barbara,



Thank you for the information. Did it happen to say if the people in these studies were spanked themselves as children? I can see where the 70% of the children who were abused started from spanking (when parents can’t control their anger they start beating as a result), that doesn’t mean however that 70% of the parents who spanked were abusers (that number is what I would be curious to find out). I often wonder if the people in these studies sat down with the children and explained the whole consequence versus being mean concept. I have to admit my son when I first spanked him (more then just a light tap on the bottom) thought I was being mean to him. That is when I sat him down and went over the event with him. After that he grasped the concept pretty well. For me, I know why I got spanked when I was little. So maybe this is why I didn’t feel these negative affects that you spoke about, and from the forum it sounds like the ones who understood why there were spanked are the ones okay with spanking. Also from the responses here, I find those studies hard to believe so far. There seems to be great support from people who were spanked who turned out fine. I would also be curious to see if this facts changed over the different years. My hubby got me thinking about that this weekend-he thinks people are too sensitive to something that was perfectly normal not all that long ago in our history. Have abuse steadily been increasing over the years, etc (maybe it is due to the lack of discipline in the children so if they don’t know how to behave as children they turn into adults who don’t know how to behave and lash out the same way etc). My mind is so curious now, but I will have to do more research when I have the time, but right now I have to focus on getting ready for bootcamp (leaving jan 13).



Elizabeth,



Thank you for expanding on my point, Disciplining is only one aspect not the whole foundation. Or as you put it: that discipline is a contributing factor, not the sole bases for how we behave. The debate was between “punishment” and “consequences” not discipline (discipline can sometimes come in the form of consequences for actions). When I explain the boundaries to my son ahead of time, if you do This then you will get this consequence. So he knows what will happen when he engages in such behavior. This is the “logical” consequence (cause and effect, if slam doors, kick the walls, I will get spanked no doubt about it).The out door example you gave is a perfect example of natural consequences. I am not understanding your explanation of logical consequences. You said a “logical consequence is when parent intervention is needed, but punishment is what we as parents do” when parents intervention they are “doing” something. So you are saying logical consequences are punishments? In another response (first page) I went into more depth the difference between punishment and consequences (two totally different concepts with intention being a huge difference between the two). So If you are saying logical consequences is punishment, I would have to disagree. (I know there is lots of information on the internet that can support the difference between consequences and punishment, which is where I have drawn some of my conclusions from) I haven’t been able to find info on this concept though, so if you have some I am interested in reading it-did see anything to this effect from your website. I found some articles there that said:



“Logical consequences do not naturally occur as a result of behavior, but are intentionally planned” (planning being shown when I sat down and explained boundaries to my children about what will happen if they engage in certain behavior-ie time outs, spankings, taking things away etc)

1. “Related

Related means that the consequence is clearly connected to the behavior and its function” (reinforced when I reiterate to my son, you are getting spanked because you did such and such)

2. “Respectful

Consequences need to be given with empathy in a respectful voice tone.” (I speak in a calm tone of voice and I do empathize with him-I was young once myself)

3. “Reasonable

Reasonable refers to not providing consequences for inappropriate behavior that is too severe.” (this is where the debate is I guess, but I am at the viewpoint that spanking isn’t too severe)



“Logical consequences are often confused with “punishment”.



In fact this, I think is one of the articles I used in my previous arguments for spanking being a consequence (when applied properly) and not a punishment. What a small world! (I found this article from the site before you gave it to me ) I am still periodically doing research but my time is limited at the moment. I do like learning more about subjects that pertain to me though.

Michelle - posted on 12/22/2008

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Spanking is a final resort in our house. There are consistent rules, and consistent boundaries. Our 3 came out of the foster system where they 'could NOT be touched' . When we explained a rule (say - no running on the stairs) to a 4 year old, they will forget. We remind and make them go back and walk instead of run. When we explain a rule (say no running away from me out into traffic) to a 4 year old, they get ONE STERN reminder and told they will get a swat if they forget again. When he looks at me, smiles, jerks his hand out of mine and acts like he is going to dart away, believe you me, a swat got his attention. Depends on the kid. Depends on the situation. I tell my kids I will help them remember the rules. Sometimes that means having them post a note for themselves. Sometimes it means missing out on a favorite cartoon. Sometimes (especially when the 7 year old started telling me he broke a rule because 'he didn't think he would get caught') it means a swat. We use a paddle. I don't use my hands on my kids - neither of us prefers the belt...the paddle hangs unobtrusively in the kitchen...and the kids don't fear either one of us. We talk about choices a LOT. Practicing good choices now (we hope) will lead to automatic direction towards good choices later. I was beaten and broken as a child. My kids will be given discipline, not beatings. You BET I SPANK! :)

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Nipuna-thanks for that website...it has really good info! In my opinion, it's hypocritical for some of us to 'pick/chose' what teachings match our style. The word 'discipline' comes from 'disciple'...I wonder if the son of God spanked his disciples when they misbehaved? And with a 'rod', Jesus Murphy (no pun intended) ... are we correcting cattle, sheep or other farm animals?

Nicki - posted on 12/22/2008

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I do not believe in spanking our children to instill discipline. It makes no sense that we inflict pain and negativity to try and instill love and positivity. Sure every household has rules that must be followed, but there are many choices on how to enforce and reinforce them. CONSISTENCY, my mom says is the key. Talk to your kids, and not at them...they will listen. My mom always says thet less is more. They hear the first few words and then all they hear is blah blah blah.

Natalie - posted on 12/21/2008

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nipuna...i jus read your post..i agree with u even tho i dunt spank ..i didnt look at it like that...!!!

Nipuna - posted on 12/21/2008

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Angela, I agree that adults who don't follow the law get punished with a "time out", but that's because they know better and are supposed to be responsible. Kids are learning. Imagine if you had a new job and everytime you made a mistake during your training period you got spanked or put in time out.

Angela - posted on 12/21/2008

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When my oldest was younger, 2-5, I would spank her when she deliberately disobeyed me, and it was only one swat on the butt. With her it worked well, she was extremely verbal and would try to argue her way out of anything, I tried time outs with her, but they just seemed to drag out the punishment, One swat and it was done and over.

My son however is so different, If I were to hit him (and I mean a pat on the butt) he would be crushed, He is so sensitive. He has never been down right defiant, He tries so hard to do the right thing. If I tell him what he did hurt someone, he will start crying and wants to know what to do to make it better.
I have used time outs for him, he has a tendency to melt down when everything doesn't happen in the right order ex: we put his shirt on before his pants, or I give him the red bowl when he expected the blue one. Time-outs give him a chance to calm down.

I don't think there's a ONE SIZE FITS ALL method of discipline , all kids have different personality's and what works for one kid wont necessarily work for another.

I do think it's so important that parents teach their children right from wrong.
They need to know there are consequences if we do whats wrong.
Even as adults, if we don't follow the law, we may end up in jail or BIG TIME OUT!

Natalie - posted on 12/21/2008

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i dont spank my daughter =) ahh when is this thread going to end??haha next year?i wasnt going to post anymore but we get notified everytime..so why not post again??if you want to spank your child to discipline them than do what you like they are your kids...MEEE I DONT SPANKKKK AND I WASNT SPANKED!!and i hate the word spanked...its hit..!!!a hit and a spank to me are the same thing..abuse and spank or hit whatever i guess CAN be different..i just dont think hitting works..!!my boyfriend was spanked occassionally and he knows that im not for it..so he agrees with me..everyone is using the bible to justify why they spank...this is crazy!!if your going to spank your kid why do you have to justify it??your saying its for discipline right??so do what you like..i just dont think its right..i like using my techniques better!!

Barbara - posted on 12/21/2008

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Amy- There are many who have and do use the Bible and other holy books to justify violence. Most people would say that they are willfully misinterpreting what they are reading in order to reach the conclusion of their choice.

You could almost say (Linda Van T.) that there is a Bible quote out there to support any viewpoint that you want to argue on. Debating 101.

Nipuna - posted on 12/21/2008

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http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanki... there are many interpretations of the rod. And when sheepherders use the rod it's to SHOW it. You can use a rod by showing it, not hitting with it.

Nancy Hastings Sehested, pastor of Prescott Memorial Baptist Church in Memphis, TN, -- a Southern Baptist congregation -- referring to Proverbs 13:24, said in a 1995 broadcast:

"When you hear the word from this passage of 'rod,' what do you think of? Perhaps a stick for beating and brutalizing, right? But what happens - what happens when we understand the rod in this Proverb as the same kind of rod and staff that comfort in Psalm 23? 'Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.' The rod and staff are the shepherd's tools for comforting the sheep. It is for caring and protecting, never for beating them to death. A good shepherd delights in his flock. The shepherd will go to whatever lengths necessary to provide the finest grazing, the rich pastures and clean water. The shepherd will do whatever is necessary to provide shelter from the storms and protection from enemies and diseases that sheep are susceptible to."

Linda - posted on 12/21/2008

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I think you said it best AMY!!

There is a study out there to support any point of view that you want to argue on Debating 101

Amy - posted on 12/21/2008

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Spanking is NOT wrong. Otherwise our Heavenly Father would not have instructed us in Proverbs...That it is the rod of correction that drives foolishness out. What IS wrong is that "spanking" and it's use has been perverted and misused. Again I will say...when you spank (NOT with your hand) and in a consistent and controlled manner for direct rebellious disobedience spanking IS a great tool and a RIGHT tool according to The Most High God and His word!! Futher more most behavioral issues with your kids will not stem from whether you spank or don't. They stem from the direct relationship you have with them. Josh McDowell puts it best..."Rules without relationship breeds rebellion" Of course a mother who consistently spanks her child and fails to make them feel or sense love will breed a child who is rebellious. Like wise a mother who consistently spanks her child and manages to make her child always feel secure and loved will breed the opposite. It is NOT the action, but rather the method that makes the difference.

Nipuna - posted on 12/21/2008

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I think spanking is using your larger size and strength advantage to bully a child into doing what you want. It's not like you can continue spanking when the child is bigger or stronger than you.

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Shoot...by the way..neither my sister nor I drink! LOL Didn't want people to think we were 'happy tipsy' mommies here! ;o)

[deleted account]

Lola..discipline is merely a contributing factor in the way teenagers behave...the environment plays a huge role in this. Ex. Drinking too much, causes me to be drunk. But the way I act when drunk is totally different from the way my sister would act. Why? Because alcohol is merely a contributing factor to my behaviour. The same goes for teenagers 'misbehaving' and 'rebelling'. In my household, there are 4 sibblings. 2 rebelled and 2 didn't...we came from the same background...did spanking 'cause' us to rebel? Nope...our emotions, thoughts, conscience and environment did.

As far as discipline vs consequence...I disagree (sorry). I remember a Social Work Professor outlining consequence as a 'natural' and 'logical' effect from an action (ex: if my son opts to go outdoors in freezing temperatures wearing nothing but shorts...the natural consequence is that he will get cold. Natural consequences occur 'without' parent intervention. 'Logical' consequences need parent intervention (ex: when sibbling fight...the logical consequence is to let them work it out themselves). Punishment is always what we as parents do...whether it is taking away the TV, to removing priveledges, to keeping them in time-out, to spanking, etc... I know it is really easy to mix both of these up and think about it subjectively, but it doesn't work that way. Again, there's a great website (for teachers) that offers great info and tactics...I know I've used it with my child and in the classroom and it works. The website is www.specialconnections.ku.edu.

Ciao

Tina - posted on 12/20/2008

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I forgot to add...My dad used a belt when we did wrong..it didnt do anything but make me angry and I find myself holding tha over him...its not respect im feeling thats for sure.

Tina - posted on 12/20/2008

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I just have this to say...How can you earn or teach respect by hitting at any time or any part of the body...God help me some days I would love to shake my kids into next week. but I walk away and come back when Im calmer...this doesn't mean I dont get mad at my kids because I do...they know when Im upset and most times just the threat of losing something they love for a long time is all it takes....Theres enough violence in this world.do we really need to start that at home?

Barbara - posted on 12/20/2008

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Lola- Going back a bit to how you responded to Elizabeth about the results of studies done on spanking: If you look up some of the studies that led to those conclusions you will see that they are based in facts gleaned from hundreds and hundreds of people who spank/don't spank across the world. Here is a few conclusions that I found for one such study led by Murray Strauss, a leading researcher in the field of family violence.

- 70% of child abuse cases begin as spanking.
- Spanking hinders the development of empathy, remorse, or compassion. The child focuses on the pain, rather than the effect of his or her own behavior on others.
- Corporal punishment, used at the toddler age, can reduce the degree to which children develop a conscience.

Another study by the same team found that children who were spanked are put at risk of developing certain types of sexual problems as adults. This is just a tiny fraction of the information out there that proves that spanking your children frequently leads to a whole lot of problems down the line, even if it does work. It may be that you have not experienced any of these problems so far yourself, but why take the risk? Especially if there are other ways to discipline?

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