Why is it a problem that babies don' t sleep through the night as adults define it?

Tamara - posted on 06/04/2009 ( 295 moms have responded )

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I see so many posts about how their baby or toddler won't sleep completely through the night as defined by an adult even though babies and toddlers are designed to wake frequently to nurse, seek comfort, etc. I'm just having a hard time how seeing how a a baby obeying its biological imperative is a problem of some kind. Can anyone explain the logic in trying to get a baby/toddler to sleep longer than they are designed to do?

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Betsy - posted on 06/10/2009

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The state of Massachusetts actually isn't a warning against co-sleeping after 31 babies died in one year, in their parents' bed. The issue wasn't rolling on them, but when they are facing someone or a pillow, just like stomach sleeping, the area in which they breath is limited. They rebreathe from the air which they are exhaling, which is high levels of carbon dioxide. Just like with my friend's 4 mo old son, his CO2 levels were fatal, that is what they are finding with cases of SIDS. In her case, she didn't even co-sleep, but her husband worked nights. The baby woke, and she brought him in bed with her just until her husband came home an hour later. When he came in that hour later, the baby was gone due to SIDS/CO2 poisonong, as he lied on his side, facing his mom.

A big factor is the arcuate nucleus in the infants brainstem might not be developed at birth in all kids. That is what signals to the brain O2 levels are down and CO2 levels are getting dangerous. It happens with us nightly. I am sure we all have rolled over in our sleep, feeling like we need more air, or taken a blanket off our heads. That is the arcuate nucleus at work, signally us to get more oxygen and that we are getting high levels of carbon dioxide. In an infant, they either can't move yet to get more air, or in the case of an undeveloped arcuate nuclues, nothing is signalling them to even wake them. As of now, development of that important area of the brainstem can't be tested, but they are working on it, which would be wonderful for it to be a routine test to make parents aware their child is at high risk of SIDS, and it being completely preventable.

Not co-sleeping and placing children on their backs has dramatically reduced SIDS deaths when followed. Another tip that has been recommended for those who don't want to follow recommendations, and as an extra step for those who do, is placing a fan in the room where the child sleeps, which aids in circulating the air. Just a fan going in the corner helps that air to circulate room-wide. The white noise from the fan also does help many to sleep better, as we know white noise helps many to sleep. It's just an extra aid until the child might be able to get out of the crib, where a standing fan would be a safety hazrd, but by that time, risk of SIDS, lack of movement and development of the arcute nucleus are not issues of concerns anymore.

Vanessa - posted on 06/06/2009

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Hi Tamara.....i think the big problem is in western culture most people live as single family units, therefore have little to no help in attending to the needs of a baby. One baby with one adult (even 2 adults) can be a strain.......as it really does take a village to raise a child. If parents weren't pushed to the limits during the day time hours through a lack of support from their community.....then maybe they would be better equiped to manage night time needs. Sadly, everyone is too busy doing their own thing and making money to help a woman raise her children.
Western culture holds the ideal of "individualism" and "independence" so high on their list of priorities....that they get confused and think you must teach a tiny child to be independent (when they are totally dependent). Truth is we in the west have much to learn from those who live primative lifestyles in simple kin groups.
And somewhere in the individualist western world......some idiot came up with an idea of how to make a buck and wrote a stupid book on training your child to sleep all night by leaving them alone to "self sooth" (the sugar coated way of saying, leave your child to cry alone, become so distrought that they are abondoned by their caregivers, vomit and fall asleep in a heap of despair and give up on their mother and the human race in general). Fact is there is much money to be made in the western world through convincing tired, unsupported parents their babies and young child should be sleeping all night alone......IE the sales of cots, baby monitors, musical toys, teddy bears with heart beats *oh please!*, those little security blankets, baby sleeping bags, dummies, artificial human milk, bottles, teats, books and "how to train your child to sleep"......the list goes on *sigh*. Marketing giants and formula companies have a lot to answer for. Unfortunately we have had the wool pulled over our eyes for far too long....
i truely believe....if you know better, you do better......and unfortunately solitary sleeping (sleep training, CIO etc) is SO INGRAINED in our culture.
i have educated myself (as you have) on the normal biological needs of babies and physiology of human lactation......and accept my role as a mother. Attending to my childrens needs are made easy through co-sleeping and breastfeeding (the biological expectation of a human infant).........only when more people accept this as normal and stop trying to separate themselves from their children will the BIG sleep issue go away.
Cultures that co-sleep and breastfed as the NORMAL way to parent do not have "problems" with sleep........blah blah blah.....
anyway Tamara, no point preaching to the converted (you already know all this and more).......just wish a few more people would embrace their childrens night time needs.....might make their parenting role a whole lot more enjoyable and their children a little more secure, considerate and empathetic.
enjoy sleeping with you little one......i know i do!!!!
p.s.... i always get a good nights sleep with my little one snuggled up to my breast.....
right where he belongs!
p.p.s....once upon a time a family in my country took a baby camping in the outback, the mother left her baby alone to sleep.......the baby was taken and eaten by a dingo (a wild dog).......proof right there babies are NOT designed to ever be left alone!
Have a good day (and night) everyone! :)

[deleted account]

This is a great point Tamara - I think the more we fight the "sleeping" issues and accept that babies need more frequent feeds (sorry you cannot compare a baby/toddler to an adult 'Betsy Betsy'). Babies are growing and developing rapidly and need more nourishment. Breastmilk also digests quick, and therefore needs to be replenished. I think it comes down to, who's schedule are we trying to control and for the convenience of whom? Babies come into our lives and shake things up - for the better I think. If parents think they should be getting all their sleep first and foremost - don't have children! When babies cry and rebel against nap time/bedtime - there is usually a reason for it. Understand that babies are wired completely different from adults and are constantly learning about the world around them, ecspecially how we react to what they do - ie. forcing a schedule that does not agree with babe = crying, upset babies and frustrated parents.

I follow my 7mo's lead and she has developed her own sleeping "routine" if you will. My husband get enough sleep and have a happy child.

I have worked with many familes (as a birth & postpartum doula and Breastfeeding Counsellor) for 7 years and see similar patterns that we must conform children to what 'we' are doing or what 'we' need - babies have needs to and listening and following their leads can make everything run a lot more smoothly.

Veronica - posted on 06/08/2009

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Amanda Passmore -- Im going to be a brutally honest bitch here --- You are the worst person to ever be online -- and in the circle of moms -- your opinions are nothing but verbal abuse to all of us women who are trying to be the best mothers we can be! I dont think any one of these mothers online is a bad mom - i dont agree with all their methods - but they dont all agree with mine either - so the f*ck what!! Ive learned new things, hopefully helped others, etc. I think you are nothing but a negative, conceted, full of yourself bitch! leave us the f*ck alone, and get a damn life!! im tired of hearing the verbal bashes on these woman! You are not mentally healthy to be on here and try to tell others how to be a mother - who is right and wrong, and that you are better than the rest. I think you are having insecurities with yourself, and you get off bitching at the rest of us! GROW THE F*CK UP!!!!



As for me, i think looking for different ways of how to help your children get to sleep and stay to sleep is a natural thing to question -- i have five kids, i get frustrated when i get woken up at night - but i still take care of my kids. I cuddle them, rock them, and take care of their immediate needs and put them back to bed. I do let my children cry - after they are taken care of! If they still dont go down within a few minutes, i continue to care for them until they do go back to bed! Crying isnt going to hurt them one bit! Sometimes they just need to cry! Sometimes i need to cry!! I never co-slept because i could not sleep worrying about rolling on my baby or my husband -- ive nursed in bed and stuff, but put my babies back to bed when they were done. That does not mean co-sleeping is bad because i couldnt do it. I dont think one mother on here is lazy either. We can BE lazy at times - i dont always clean, cook a full meal, or play all day with my kids, but that isnt an every day occurance, and its because im tired, not in the mood, or whatever -- does not make me a lazy or uncaring mother. Show me a book that says that we should be 24 hour supermothers!! There isnt a such thing, and in fact that is the fucking problem, too many of us try to be - cook, clean, take care of kids, take care of housework, hubby, ourselves, some a job -- you cannot tell me that anyone wakes with a smile and smiles all day and smiles before bed!! everyday of their motherhood!! this is the type of world we live in now a days - im a stay at home mom - and do all these things and am just plum wore out - i am glad when my children are in bed and sleeping cause i can actually breath for a few minutes, relax, or do things that i couldnt while i was being "supermom"all day fucking long!! Of course when they wake up its frustrating! i just spent all day caring for them, and putting myself aside for them - and it will be that way 24 hours seven days a week for almost forever -- does that me i throw myself aside forever too? No -- so shut the hell up and go make your own "Self-absorbed bitch" forum.



I have nothing left to say. (by the way, this statement is my OPINION -- this is what i feel -- not necessarily who or what you are -- just what my opinion is of you!)

Nadia - posted on 06/13/2009

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I completely agree with u its crazy how much pressure is put on to parents to get there child to sleep through the night. My toddler is nearly 1year and a half and still wakes thru the night. I ended up being sent to a sleep school when he was 6months or so and it was torture,they tried to get me to basically do controlled crying..I believe that our culture likes to be in control of things and thats why there is so much importance placed on getting babies to sleep through the night, so you can get on with the rest of your life.

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Quoting Melissa:



Quoting Amanda:




Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - you yourself have had several comments on here with people no liking you as well so you cant really comment on me just because i am young does not make me immature im pretty knowledgeable on babies and im happy about that because it means i can help other people. but if Betsy knew how to behave towards other and not talk down to them, then maybe people wouldnt get upset and offended? none of my history makes me a bad person because at the end of the day im a good mother infact people with a not so good childhood are usually much better parents because they care alot more and it changes them into who they are. you find uptight people who had everything are often the ones that treat their kids bad. totally un necessary comment








Ok the first part of this post I do not understand. I dont care if some people do not like me and I did not say people should like me. what I said was you should not talk down to people who have worked their ass off to achive whatever status they may have. Is this how you talk to your doctor, lawyers and police officers that you may come in contact with? Yes I may say shit to people on here but it is usally because they have no bloody idea what they are talking about and giving really shitty advice that could harm someones child. I am going to assume these people have not taken the time to formally  educate them selves because I had gotten a lot of comments on the cant stand perfect mothers thread stating that I was selfish for going back to school.   You are immature because you do not have respect for people of authority not because you are young.








no one said you were a bad person just a misguided person.








your last comment of people from a shitty childhood being the best parents this is false. Like i said before that most kids who grow up in abusive or disfunctional homes will raise their own children in abusive and disfunctional homes. It is called a cycle of abuse and unless one takes the time to educate them selves and go through councelling than there is no way to break the cycle. No matter how much a person says "I will not be like my mother" chances are they will cary some of her behaviors onto their own children and so forth and so forth.








last sentence, uptight people who had everything. what does this mean? are you refering to thoes who had an education ect ect ect?








Let me tell you my life as a child and a teen was absolute HELL. I am not going to go into details because it doesnt matter, my point is I broke the cycle, I graduated HS went to college, Graduated college, went to tech school, graduated tech school and now I am 2 years to graduate from university. I keep going back because I odnt know what I want from life yet. I did not grow up "having everything" everything I have I have worked my ass off for. We went to living far below poverty to high middle class in 6 years. We have never taken hand outs and have paid for everything we have. my husband is still in school as am I so again in a few years once he is in the work force we will be classified as high income so from living off of 4 figures a year to six figures a year in 7-10 years is amazing. and it is amazing because I came from NOTHING.








I think people who "have everything" tend to apriciate things more because of the work and ambition that goes into getting thoes things and thoes skills. anyway this is so off topic. just want you to realize that not everyone who has some "lernin" under their belt is a damn goody two shoes who have had everything handed to them and have had real nice lives.









 






the doctors and everyone else never said the immature things she said to me if they had sure i would be going off. if she acted her age then of course i would not be saying anything to her. i think you need to stay out of this as the comments you made to me were quite low and offensive and im not going to argue with you anymore i was starting to think you were ok not to others but to me anyway but now i just dont think you are very decent at all and i dont want involvement with you





Alright guys. Can we all agree to disagree on this subject, and clearly many others on this message borad. 



I really don't think it is fair to use people's history and education as leverage in an argument. Just becasue Melissa has not graduated school...blah blah blah young mom....blah blah doesn't mean she has not done her best to educate herself. She does have a failure to thrive child who has needs that require her to work closer with doctors ect. leaving her with more infromation than the norm.  



As much as I may not agree with some of her statments (she dosen't agree with mine either) she has made lots of efforts to help people....and thats very respectful. People should learn to take things with a grain of salt....esspecially on an internet-based message board. 



Im a young mom too (im 24) and get judged in public on a regular basis and thought I would be able to get more support on-line....all I have come across is a bunch of women who are unable to shut their traps. I know I'm not really adding much to this thread either, but I just needed to get that off my chest. I think I will leave COM's now.....oh and taking my education with me too! 

Mel - posted on 06/13/2009

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Quoting Amanda:



Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - you yourself have had several comments on here with people no liking you as well so you cant really comment on me just because i am young does not make me immature im pretty knowledgeable on babies and im happy about that because it means i can help other people. but if Betsy knew how to behave towards other and not talk down to them, then maybe people wouldnt get upset and offended? none of my history makes me a bad person because at the end of the day im a good mother infact people with a not so good childhood are usually much better parents because they care alot more and it changes them into who they are. you find uptight people who had everything are often the ones that treat their kids bad. totally un necessary comment






Ok the first part of this post I do not understand. I dont care if some people do not like me and I did not say people should like me. what I said was you should not talk down to people who have worked their ass off to achive whatever status they may have. Is this how you talk to your doctor, lawyers and police officers that you may come in contact with? Yes I may say shit to people on here but it is usally because they have no bloody idea what they are talking about and giving really shitty advice that could harm someones child. I am going to assume these people have not taken the time to formally  educate them selves because I had gotten a lot of comments on the cant stand perfect mothers thread stating that I was selfish for going back to school.   You are immature because you do not have respect for people of authority not because you are young.






no one said you were a bad person just a misguided person.






your last comment of people from a shitty childhood being the best parents this is false. Like i said before that most kids who grow up in abusive or disfunctional homes will raise their own children in abusive and disfunctional homes. It is called a cycle of abuse and unless one takes the time to educate them selves and go through councelling than there is no way to break the cycle. No matter how much a person says "I will not be like my mother" chances are they will cary some of her behaviors onto their own children and so forth and so forth.






last sentence, uptight people who had everything. what does this mean? are you refering to thoes who had an education ect ect ect?






Let me tell you my life as a child and a teen was absolute HELL. I am not going to go into details because it doesnt matter, my point is I broke the cycle, I graduated HS went to college, Graduated college, went to tech school, graduated tech school and now I am 2 years to graduate from university. I keep going back because I odnt know what I want from life yet. I did not grow up "having everything" everything I have I have worked my ass off for. We went to living far below poverty to high middle class in 6 years. We have never taken hand outs and have paid for everything we have. my husband is still in school as am I so again in a few years once he is in the work force we will be classified as high income so from living off of 4 figures a year to six figures a year in 7-10 years is amazing. and it is amazing because I came from NOTHING.






I think people who "have everything" tend to apriciate things more because of the work and ambition that goes into getting thoes things and thoes skills. anyway this is so off topic. just want you to realize that not everyone who has some "lernin" under their belt is a damn goody two shoes who have had everything handed to them and have had real nice lives.





 



the doctors and everyone else never said the immature things she said to me if they had sure i would be going off. if she acted her age then of course i would not be saying anything to her. i think you need to stay out of this as the comments you made to me were quite low and offensive and im not going to argue with you anymore i was starting to think you were ok not to others but to me anyway but now i just dont think you are very decent at all and i dont want involvement with you

?? - posted on 06/13/2009

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Nice, bitch-fest. I put $20 on the fat one. And $20 on the law degree. And $20 on the loud mouth. And $20 on the home-skillet that plays the harmonica... might as well make it an even $100... $20 on the dog that just farted in the corner.


There are so many factors to SIDS. I've heard that having a pet is a cause of SIDS. I've also heard that leaving a light on in the corner is a way to reduce the risks of SIDS. I find it freakin amazing the things people can come up with. What I also find freakin amazing that someone, especially a MOM, can so vehemently dismiss any sort of finding that has any common sense to it that may be a factor that causes SIDS.


Seriously, CO2 - it makes bloody sense! AND with someone reading it - don't you think moms who do co-sleep, may never have even thought of that - can then readjust their sleeping arrangements to reduce or eliminate THAT probability?


Fuck me. Some of the shit is fuckin retarded. I'm sorry, I'm done talkin all nicey nice - but get your fuckin head out of your asses.


Lise, you said it yourself, "I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves." How many moms do you think read what Betsy said - thought this makes sense - and then looked it up. I would guess a fair amount. If they didn't then that's their issue.


I'm pretty sure Betsy and Amanda were both SIMPLY pointing out that CO2 can be a CAUSE of a death that was PREVIOUSLY called SIDS. Obviously, not EVERY SIDS case is cause of CO2 poisoning. Just like every HIV case is cause of homosexuality. BUT CO2 has become a more apparent cause of SIDS. Is that really such a BAD thing to make aware to parents who are co-sleepers? NO IT IS NOT - HELL IT MIGHT EVEN SAVE A BABIES LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cause a mom who never would have thought that cuddling her baby close could possibly cause them to die from CO2 POISONING!


Betsy, I respect your knowledge and your intelligence and your opinions on this matter. I hope that you will keep your head high and move on from this thread because it's obvious that some people would rather talk than listen.


Amanda, drama follows you doesn't it? LOL


Melissa, get over it already. I said to you before, I left highschool A LONG ASS TIME AGO. I would suggest you leave as well. I read that you dropped out and skipped... well... so did I...... I left it behind when I stopped going........ so LEAVE IT BEHIND ALREADY. Arguing with 2 very strongly educated women in such an immature manner really is pointless and makes you look like a total fool. The only reason I can see that you're backing up Lise is cause you don't like Betsy, cause she called you names.


It's like HIGH FREAKIN SCHOOL in this thread. This is CIRCLE of moms not CLIQUES of moms. Play nice! If you can't, then go to the corner for a time out. Come back in 5 minutes and try again! Don;t make me get the belt out LOL

Amanda - posted on 06/13/2009

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Quoting Lise:






I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)





A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.













Hi lise, just to clarify I did not misuse any stats infact I never quoted any stats in the above post. I did find thoes articles on line and I am not looking at them in a biased stand point. If you had actually read the articles you would have seen they are unbiased giving both the findings of studies done by co sleeping advocates and scientists.I do not wish to prove any point. Personally I chose for my baby to sleep in her crib because that is what I fell comfortable doing.








I do want to clarify a few things though as it seems there is alot of bickering about the causes of sids and weather co sleeping or crib sleeping causes sids or reduces/increases sids.








The quick anserw is NO neither co sleeping or crib sleeping reduces or increases SIDS.








I realize some websites and online journals that you have access to may be biased as is with ALL topics regarding our children. I thought you should know (since you quoted me) I do have acess to REAL unbiased medical journals that the genral public do not have acess to. These are in a password protected data base and contain a lot of terminology that the general public may not understand. I am unable to post any of these journals because of copy right laws  blah blah blah. Ok so here is my unbiased post about cosleeping, cribs, accidental death and SIDS.








cosleeping:








1)Co sleeping does not cause SIDS. there are safe ways to co sleep and they are as follows:








use an extra firm matress, place bbay on back, do not leave baby alone on the bed. sleep with baby next to mom and not in the middle of the bed if the bed is shared by 2 adults (most moms are subconsciously aware the infant is in bed and will not roll onto them where as mots dads are not aware) do not use multiple puffy pillows, quilts and blankets. use a tightly fitted sheet. Do not sleep on a high bed, use a matress on the floor or a very low bed. All adults in the bed most not co sleep if they have been drinking, useing drugs including sleep aids, have a history of unprovoked seziures are  obese, are smokers and are natrually heavy sleepers.   all of these recomendations are to reduce the risk of an accidental death . even with these precautions accidents can still happen.








crib use:








1) cribs do not cause SIDS, there are safe ways to lay a baby to sleep in a crib.








never use the following items in a crib as they can cause suffication, over heating and can later be used as steps for an older baby to climb out with:m puffy blankets, toys, bumpers, crib wedges. place baby ok back.








always use a tight fitting matress with a tight fitting sheet. make sure the crib meets current safety standards  and was manufactured no earlier then 1991.(which can be found online)








these guidlines will help reduce accidental death.








 








SIDS:








1)there is no known direct cause of SIDS








2)SIDS has been linked to the possibility that  a defect in the way the brain stem handles a nerotransmitter called serotonin . The brain stem is the part of the brain  that connects to the spinal cord and controls unconscious processes like breathing and heart rhythm, and serotonin is part of this control system.








3) there is NO WAY to tell if your baby has the defect in the brain stem until the baby dies and an autopsy is performed.








4) the rebreathing of CO2 as a contributing factor to SIDS is because of this defect. The baby is rebreathng the same air over and over and where someone with a normal brainstem would know to turn their head or would wake up. a baby with the defect would not know and they would die.








to reduce the risk of sids you should follw safe sleep guidlines but if it is going to happen it will hapen weather the baby is in a crib or in bed with mom.








5)some co sleeping advocates believe that the mothers breathing will help regulate the infants breathing thus reducing the risk of sids.








 








OVERALL:








there is more accidental death from straglation, suffication, entrpment, falls and parental overlay while co sleeping safely than there is while sleeping in a crib safely. this is due to the added hazords of the adult bed (even a matress on the floor) that are not present in a crib.








Now I know you will come back at me by saying something about the rates of sids being lower in undeveloped countries but that is not valid do to the obvious that it is a underdeveloped country and has nothing to do with western society. Cross cultural comparrison are often biased and should not be used when determining if cosleeping reduces the risk or increases the risk of SIDS.









Amanda, I think you've misunderstood me, and I did quote you so it's my mistake for not being more specific to what I was referring. You did not use any stats in this particular post, but you and others have used them in the past. I did not mean to single you out on that, I apologize. And people can post whatever they want, it's not for me to say what you can and can not post. I just hope that when someone is wrong, somebody tells them and explains why.






I agree somewhat with your current unbiased post on SIDS. If you or Betsy had originally written something along those lines I would have no issue.  But you have previously gone from advocating safe co-sleeping, to saying "sids aside I can tell you that many more babies die in moms bed than in a crib"  which is horribly unfair statement to make, considering how many different factors there are.






I did in fact take the time to read the articles for which you had posted links before I posted my thoughts. One of those papers had no references, and the other was done by a trade-marked company, which to me means they shouldn't be posted to prove what someone else was saying. My major concern was that the information Betsy was providing was misleading by stating that SIDS was now all figured out. I had included you only because you were reinforcing her (for the second time) by provinding papers to back her up after someone else pointed out that she may be wrong. Your info, in my opinion, seemed biased.






 






I used stats 1 time. I know the one you are talking about, where I said THAT I READ THAT A BABY WHO COSLEEPS IS 16%MORE LIKELY TO DIE IN MOMS BED THAN A CHILD WHO SLEEPS IN A CRIB. oh 1 other time to when aia said that by the age of 6 months the risk of sids is reducd by 95% and this is true.



about sids. The  deformation of the brainstem is the cause if you want to look at it that way because a baby without the deformation would never die of SIDS. I am not going to repeat my self on how the deformation of the brain stem and the inablity to wake or redirect the head when rebreathing CO2 are corealted but if you want to look at it as must having a cause I would say that this is a big one. I reinforce other peoples posts whom I share the same views on.

Amanda - posted on 06/13/2009

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Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - you yourself have had several comments on here with people no liking you as well so you cant really comment on me just because i am young does not make me immature im pretty knowledgeable on babies and im happy about that because it means i can help other people. but if Betsy knew how to behave towards other and not talk down to them, then maybe people wouldnt get upset and offended? none of my history makes me a bad person because at the end of the day im a good mother infact people with a not so good childhood are usually much better parents because they care alot more and it changes them into who they are. you find uptight people who had everything are often the ones that treat their kids bad. totally un necessary comment



Ok the first part of this post I do not understand. I dont care if some people do not like me and I did not say people should like me. what I said was you should not talk down to people who have worked their ass off to achive whatever status they may have. Is this how you talk to your doctor, lawyers and police officers that you may come in contact with? Yes I may say shit to people on here but it is usally because they have no bloody idea what they are talking about and giving really shitty advice that could harm someones child. I am going to assume these people have not taken the time to formally  educate them selves because I had gotten a lot of comments on the cant stand perfect mothers thread stating that I was selfish for going back to school.   You are immature because you do not have respect for people of authority not because you are young.



no one said you were a bad person just a misguided person.



your last comment of people from a shitty childhood being the best parents this is false. Like i said before that most kids who grow up in abusive or disfunctional homes will raise their own children in abusive and disfunctional homes. It is called a cycle of abuse and unless one takes the time to educate them selves and go through councelling than there is no way to break the cycle. No matter how much a person says "I will not be like my mother" chances are they will cary some of her behaviors onto their own children and so forth and so forth.



last sentence, uptight people who had everything. what does this mean? are you refering to thoes who had an education ect ect ect?



Let me tell you my life as a child and a teen was absolute HELL. I am not going to go into details because it doesnt matter, my point is I broke the cycle, I graduated HS went to college, Graduated college, went to tech school, graduated tech school and now I am 2 years to graduate from university. I keep going back because I odnt know what I want from life yet. I did not grow up "having everything" everything I have I have worked my ass off for. We went to living far below poverty to high middle class in 6 years. We have never taken hand outs and have paid for everything we have. my husband is still in school as am I so again in a few years once he is in the work force we will be classified as high income so from living off of 4 figures a year to six figures a year in 7-10 years is amazing. and it is amazing because I came from NOTHING.



I think people who "have everything" tend to apriciate things more because of the work and ambition that goes into getting thoes things and thoes skills. anyway this is so off topic. just want you to realize that not everyone who has some "lernin" under their belt is a damn goody two shoes who have had everything handed to them and have had real nice lives.

Lise - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Betsy:



Quoting Lise:




I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)








A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.










I find it troublesome that some use feel that playing on the internet, reading websites, constitutes "research." I have stayed up-to-date with studies as I have to deal with cases of questionable deaths of infants, some which turn out to be classified as SIDS with and fatal levels of CO2, with no charges filed,  dealing closely with the doctors and medical examiners in each case, seeing the autopies firsthand and the cause of death reported on the death ceritificate, as well as the up-to-date scientific research as it becomes available. Sorry, but I don't find websurfing for 2 or 3 years as indepth, professional experience. That does give some authority on the subject. WIthout accurate information, that supercedes message boards and website research, a grieving parent could be falsely charged with the murder of their child, so I do take it very seriously, with much higher standards than the millions of website links passed around on parenting forums.





Betsy, I have thoroughly read through many books I have on parenting and child development, I have received information pamphlets from the hospital where my child was born, I have spoken to my family doctor, and I have read sites such as Health Canada's web site, the Public Health Agency of Canada's site, the Canadian Foundation for the Study of Infant Death's site, etc. I do not "play on the internet".  I read Canadian news, American news and International news from non-Canadian and non-American sources. I assure you, I am as up-to-date as one could possibly be. You may want to check your facts before you try to discredit others who disagree with you.



 



Quoting Betsy : "Now babies who die are tested for carbon dioxide levels, which has finally been figured as the cause of SIDS. There isn't debate or argument anymore."



This statement is FALSE, doesn't matter  what you've read, who you work for, or who you deal with closely. IT IS FALSE. There is no cause for SIDS, there are risk factors. A death is classified as SIDS if no cause of death can be determined.

Quoting Betsy : "They always knew there was a cause, but the work was in finding it. The past few years they have put together the reason, "

Again, FALSE.

Quoting Betsy :
 "When a friend's baby died and the blood tests came back with fatal levels of carbon dioxide poisoning, the cause of death for the death certificate was SIDS, because that's what it is. They knew the cause straight out, had the blood results, it was not an unknown and cause of death was SIDS."


If the same medical examiner [that diagnoased the cause of death to be CO2 poisoning, also stated it was a SIDS case] is the one you are getting your info from, you should find a new source, because this is impossible! If there is a known the COD then it cannot be classified SIDS.


This has gone so far off topic, I really do apologize to the OP.

Lise - posted on 06/12/2009

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I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)




A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.










Hi lise, just to clarify I did not misuse any stats infact I never quoted any stats in the above post. I did find thoes articles on line and I am not looking at them in a biased stand point. If you had actually read the articles you would have seen they are unbiased giving both the findings of studies done by co sleeping advocates and scientists.I do not wish to prove any point. Personally I chose for my baby to sleep in her crib because that is what I fell comfortable doing.






I do want to clarify a few things though as it seems there is alot of bickering about the causes of sids and weather co sleeping or crib sleeping causes sids or reduces/increases sids.






The quick anserw is NO neither co sleeping or crib sleeping reduces or increases SIDS.






I realize some websites and online journals that you have access to may be biased as is with ALL topics regarding our children. I thought you should know (since you quoted me) I do have acess to REAL unbiased medical journals that the genral public do not have acess to. These are in a password protected data base and contain a lot of terminology that the general public may not understand. I am unable to post any of these journals because of copy right laws  blah blah blah. Ok so here is my unbiased post about cosleeping, cribs, accidental death and SIDS.






cosleeping:






1)Co sleeping does not cause SIDS. there are safe ways to co sleep and they are as follows:






use an extra firm matress, place bbay on back, do not leave baby alone on the bed. sleep with baby next to mom and not in the middle of the bed if the bed is shared by 2 adults (most moms are subconsciously aware the infant is in bed and will not roll onto them where as mots dads are not aware) do not use multiple puffy pillows, quilts and blankets. use a tightly fitted sheet. Do not sleep on a high bed, use a matress on the floor or a very low bed. All adults in the bed most not co sleep if they have been drinking, useing drugs including sleep aids, have a history of unprovoked seziures are  obese, are smokers and are natrually heavy sleepers.   all of these recomendations are to reduce the risk of an accidental death . even with these precautions accidents can still happen.






crib use:






1) cribs do not cause SIDS, there are safe ways to lay a baby to sleep in a crib.






never use the following items in a crib as they can cause suffication, over heating and can later be used as steps for an older baby to climb out with:m puffy blankets, toys, bumpers, crib wedges. place baby ok back.






always use a tight fitting matress with a tight fitting sheet. make sure the crib meets current safety standards  and was manufactured no earlier then 1991.(which can be found online)






these guidlines will help reduce accidental death.






 






SIDS:






1)there is no known direct cause of SIDS






2)SIDS has been linked to the possibility that  a defect in the way the brain stem handles a nerotransmitter called serotonin . The brain stem is the part of the brain  that connects to the spinal cord and controls unconscious processes like breathing and heart rhythm, and serotonin is part of this control system.






3) there is NO WAY to tell if your baby has the defect in the brain stem until the baby dies and an autopsy is performed.






4) the rebreathing of CO2 as a contributing factor to SIDS is because of this defect. The baby is rebreathng the same air over and over and where someone with a normal brainstem would know to turn their head or would wake up. a baby with the defect would not know and they would die.






to reduce the risk of sids you should follw safe sleep guidlines but if it is going to happen it will hapen weather the baby is in a crib or in bed with mom.






5)some co sleeping advocates believe that the mothers breathing will help regulate the infants breathing thus reducing the risk of sids.






 






OVERALL:






there is more accidental death from straglation, suffication, entrpment, falls and parental overlay while co sleeping safely than there is while sleeping in a crib safely. this is due to the added hazords of the adult bed (even a matress on the floor) that are not present in a crib.






Now I know you will come back at me by saying something about the rates of sids being lower in undeveloped countries but that is not valid do to the obvious that it is a underdeveloped country and has nothing to do with western society. Cross cultural comparrison are often biased and should not be used when determining if cosleeping reduces the risk or increases the risk of SIDS.





Amanda, I think you've misunderstood me, and I did quote you so it's my mistake for not being more specific to what I was referring. You did not use any stats in this particular post, but you and others have used them in the past. I did not mean to single you out on that, I apologize. And people can post whatever they want, it's not for me to say what you can and can not post. I just hope that when someone is wrong, somebody tells them and explains why.



I agree somewhat with your current unbiased post on SIDS. If you or Betsy had originally written something along those lines I would have no issue.  But you have previously gone from advocating safe co-sleeping, to saying "sids aside I can tell you that many more babies die in moms bed than in a crib"  which is horribly unfair statement to make, considering how many different factors there are.



I did in fact take the time to read the articles for which you had posted links before I posted my thoughts. One of those papers had no references, and the other was done by a trade-marked company, which to me means they shouldn't be posted to prove what someone else was saying. My major concern was that the information Betsy was providing was misleading by stating that SIDS was now all figured out. I had included you only because you were reinforcing her (for the second time) by provinding papers to back her up after someone else pointed out that she may be wrong. Your info, in my opinion, seemed biased.



 

Sharyn - posted on 06/12/2009

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my baby is 6 months old and she goes to sleep at 8pm every night .. earlier if she's grumpy and tired and basically asks me to put her to bed ... she wakes up at about 2am to 3am for a feed then sleeps thru till 6am thereabouts ....

i wish she would sleep the whole night thru but i know that will happen at some point ...

Betsy - posted on 06/12/2009

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LMAO Melissa, do you really think I care what you think? Yes, I am a confident person. I am a grown woman, who has raised kids you age and and have had a successful career. Do you seriously think I am going to leave because a child of your level decided? And BTW, age is not what makes you a child because I have seen many very mature, responsible moms of the same age here, on other parenting forums and in real life. Your mentality and behavior makes you a child in my eyes. I don't based my life on anyone's opinion and have been quite successful. Most confident adults don't either ;-) This is a PARENTING forum. People will share opinions, be passionate and disagree, but what you are bringing are childish bickering and mouthing off that really belongs on a teen site.

Mel - posted on 06/12/2009

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Amanda - you yourself have had several comments on here with people no liking you as well so you cant really comment on me just because i am young does not make me immature im pretty knowledgeable on babies and im happy about that because it means i can help other people. but if Betsy knew how to behave towards other and not talk down to them, then maybe people wouldnt get upset and offended? none of my history makes me a bad person because at the end of the day im a good mother infact people with a not so good childhood are usually much better parents because they care alot more and it changes them into who they are. you find uptight people who had everything are often the ones that treat their kids bad. totally un necessary comment

Amanda - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Melissa:



Quoting Amanda:




Quoting Melissa:





Quoting Amanda:






Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - i didnt write a rude comment to her. infact i wrote a comment that was quite respectful and all i got was crap. ask Melissa what was sent if you want to know ok. also i never said i agreed with CIO at 2 weeks. where the hell did i say that. i never said i agreed with the 4 month thing ether. i have been exchanging PM's with Bridie and i did tell her i dont agree with her choices but she is the mother and i am not going to disrespect her in public and insult her when everybody else clearly is im not going to join in. so please dont assume i agree with this just because i dont like to see someone gettting bagged on in public by so many people. been there done that. i remember her saying something about 8 minutes. 8 minutes is not hours. i would never have put up what betsy wrote had i gone and responded something nasty to her because i did not and then all i got was shit back and yes after that of course i am not going to be nice. anyway i hope this wont cause any trouble between us because i dont want any











melissa it is just that when you said that it is her choice and her buisness. I know you said it was wrong and I am happy to see that. It just seemed like you were trying to be a fence sitter on the situation when clearly this is black and white. ther eis no grey area here. she hit or "tapped" a baby and thats wrong, you know that. I hope in your PM you tell her that there are better ways of dealing with a 4 month old. I mean they cant even stand at that age.












With betsy how could I say one way or another what was going on. I saw only 1 messege she sent you and I did admit there were some rude remarks. The stats she mentioned are very real. that is just stats they do not apply to everyone as there are always exceptions to every rule.












I was not trying to offend or upset you. I am past all that crap and just want to create some open communication with you. Whats in the past is in the past and means nothing.












It was wrong of betsy to call you white trash and it was wrong of you to call her a bitch.















 










thankyou. i dont believe any 4 month old deserves to be hit, tapped , smacked any of it even if its not hard but i have to accept that shes the mother and she knows what shes doing. i think she is much like me in the way that some topics you cant change her mind and im not going to try because i think if something really wrong was going on someone would have stepped in but that is just me. i dont beleive a 4 month  old knows wrong from right nor do i believe they understand what a smack is but i guess all im trying to say is that i think she has enough people going off and i dont personally believe its the right way to deal with it.













well melissa I would like to think it is true that in cases of abused kids if something were really wrong someone would step in but the reality is that so often kids slip through the cracks of a flawed justice system who has failed to protect them. I have only been in human serives for 4 years but unfortunatly I have seen it happen all to often. Some parents are excellent of putting up a front in the presecence of law enforcment and social workers and with all the cases they handle on a daily basis some of the kids may get over looked.








It is our job to report people who seem suspicious and out of line and not just to send in a couple anonymous tips but to really drill it in to police AND CPS. for example, we unknowingly bought a house 2 doors down from a major prostitution and drug ring (and I do not mean a little ganja I mean cocaine, heroine, meth). we have called in activity several times, have witnessed ambulences at the house dealing with beatings and drug overdose, they were raided once but hid most of the stash so well that police could not find it had they spent the time to bring in the dogs these guys would be put away.








anyway after the first raid the house was fianlly assigned a Private Investigator and that was only after my husband and several neighbours went to our conservative party representative and complained . this has been an ongoing process that has taken thus far over a year. I know soon they will make a bust and these asshole will be gone but untill then we just have to keep reporting and making police aware. It is unfortunate that criminals have rights but it is the law that you are innocent until proven guilty.









 






your right they dont always do thier job. my cousin has been in several times to report her ex since her twins live with him she even got a parking fine there. they dont always take notice. ive never been involved with CPS so really i dont know much about it but from what friends have said young mums get their babies taken away with no evidence of abuse like my then 15 year old friend.






 






To Betsy i think we have heard enough of your views and yes some people said it was helpful other people said you were talkign crap. move on already we all know you think your top shit and you think you know everything hell i know that just fro personal msgs but the fact is you dont know everything and some people just might be more knowledgable then you on certain topics. as ive said to you just because you are older does no make you wiser. find another topic to preach on






Ok melissa that was rude. you are talking down to someone with a bloddy LAW DEGREE!  show some god damn respect for her credentials.  No offence but you never finished highschool and started skipping all the time since you were 11 years old so I would think that someone with a university degree would be more knowledgable on EVERYTHING than a high school drop out would be. You need to learn how to respect authority figures girl, some people bust there butts for 4-10 years to earn their title and do not deserve to have a mouthy kid telling them whats what.

Mel - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Amanda:



Quoting Melissa:




Quoting Amanda:





Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - i didnt write a rude comment to her. infact i wrote a comment that was quite respectful and all i got was crap. ask Melissa what was sent if you want to know ok. also i never said i agreed with CIO at 2 weeks. where the hell did i say that. i never said i agreed with the 4 month thing ether. i have been exchanging PM's with Bridie and i did tell her i dont agree with her choices but she is the mother and i am not going to disrespect her in public and insult her when everybody else clearly is im not going to join in. so please dont assume i agree with this just because i dont like to see someone gettting bagged on in public by so many people. been there done that. i remember her saying something about 8 minutes. 8 minutes is not hours. i would never have put up what betsy wrote had i gone and responded something nasty to her because i did not and then all i got was shit back and yes after that of course i am not going to be nice. anyway i hope this wont cause any trouble between us because i dont want any









melissa it is just that when you said that it is her choice and her buisness. I know you said it was wrong and I am happy to see that. It just seemed like you were trying to be a fence sitter on the situation when clearly this is black and white. ther eis no grey area here. she hit or "tapped" a baby and thats wrong, you know that. I hope in your PM you tell her that there are better ways of dealing with a 4 month old. I mean they cant even stand at that age.










With betsy how could I say one way or another what was going on. I saw only 1 messege she sent you and I did admit there were some rude remarks. The stats she mentioned are very real. that is just stats they do not apply to everyone as there are always exceptions to every rule.










I was not trying to offend or upset you. I am past all that crap and just want to create some open communication with you. Whats in the past is in the past and means nothing.










It was wrong of betsy to call you white trash and it was wrong of you to call her a bitch.












 








thankyou. i dont believe any 4 month old deserves to be hit, tapped , smacked any of it even if its not hard but i have to accept that shes the mother and she knows what shes doing. i think she is much like me in the way that some topics you cant change her mind and im not going to try because i think if something really wrong was going on someone would have stepped in but that is just me. i dont beleive a 4 month  old knows wrong from right nor do i believe they understand what a smack is but i guess all im trying to say is that i think she has enough people going off and i dont personally believe its the right way to deal with it.










well melissa I would like to think it is true that in cases of abused kids if something were really wrong someone would step in but the reality is that so often kids slip through the cracks of a flawed justice system who has failed to protect them. I have only been in human serives for 4 years but unfortunatly I have seen it happen all to often. Some parents are excellent of putting up a front in the presecence of law enforcment and social workers and with all the cases they handle on a daily basis some of the kids may get over looked.






It is our job to report people who seem suspicious and out of line and not just to send in a couple anonymous tips but to really drill it in to police AND CPS. for example, we unknowingly bought a house 2 doors down from a major prostitution and drug ring (and I do not mean a little ganja I mean cocaine, heroine, meth). we have called in activity several times, have witnessed ambulences at the house dealing with beatings and drug overdose, they were raided once but hid most of the stash so well that police could not find it had they spent the time to bring in the dogs these guys would be put away.






anyway after the first raid the house was fianlly assigned a Private Investigator and that was only after my husband and several neighbours went to our conservative party representative and complained . this has been an ongoing process that has taken thus far over a year. I know soon they will make a bust and these asshole will be gone but untill then we just have to keep reporting and making police aware. It is unfortunate that criminals have rights but it is the law that you are innocent until proven guilty.





 



your right they dont always do thier job. my cousin has been in several times to report her ex since her twins live with him she even got a parking fine there. they dont always take notice. ive never been involved with CPS so really i dont know much about it but from what friends have said young mums get their babies taken away with no evidence of abuse like my then 15 year old friend.



 



To Betsy i think we have heard enough of your views and yes some people said it was helpful other people said you were talkign crap. move on already we all know you think your top shit and you think you know everything hell i know that just fro personal msgs but the fact is you dont know everything and some people just might be more knowledgable then you on certain topics. as ive said to you just because you are older does no make you wiser. find another topic to preach on

Amanda - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Betsy:



Quoting Lise:




Quoting Amanda:





Quoting Tamara:






Quoting Betsy:







Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)


















Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.















I remember wathcing  CTV  a few years back where scientists stated that they may have found a break through regarding the cause of SIDS. they explained exactally what betsy described about the rebreathing  of CO2 as a cause of death in babies who both slept with a parent in an adult bed and tummy sleeping in a crib/pack and play.










please view the following links;










http://www.breathablebaby.com/pdf_downlo...










https://www.halosleep.com/client_files/Documents/ISC/white2.pdf










these are just 2 of the links I found. they are mainly to do with tummy sleeping but it is the same concept (a pocket of air surounding the face causeing the rebreathing of CO2. I just did a quick search and read the first 2 articles I found. there were pages full though so feel free to glance in your own time. :)










Oh I also have to say that the rebreathing of CO2 is just one of the few findings that scientists have come up with and is not the only theory.












I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)








A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.










I find it troublesome that some use feel that playing on the internet, reading websites, constitutes "research." I have stayed up-to-date with studies as I have to deal with cases of questionable deaths of infants, some which turn out to be classified as SIDS with and fatal levels of CO2, with no charges filed,  dealing closely with the doctors and medical examiners in each case, seeing the autopies firsthand and the cause of death reported on the death ceritificate, as well as the up-to-date scientific research as it becomes available. Sorry, but I don't find websurfing for 2 or 3 years as indepth, professional experience. That does give some authority on the subject. WIthout accurate information, that supercedes message boards and website research, a grieving parent could be falsely charged with the murder of their child, so I do take it very seriously, with much higher standards than the millions of website links passed around on parenting forums.





betsy I do not get my information from "websurfing" It is through my formal educational background as well as my previous work in human services with at risk youth, undereducated adults and people with mental illness. everyone working in law enforcment and humanities is required to be up to date on topics such as SIDS. Like I said in another post  I do have acess to a medical journals database through the University Of Saskatchewan (the journals are world wide)



It is actually through my husbands account that he has let me acess from time to time when I am working on research papers for Psychology.



I am sure you are aware how such journals work. We are not allowed to post them here on circle of moms so I posted some web articles. no it is not as good as a journal but they do give good information that can be found in journals which is what I was trying to display, the information about rebreathing CO2 and the link to SIDS.

User - posted on 06/12/2009

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Oh my gosh, this is the first time I have looked at a thread in here and far from being a place where mothers support each other and give advice, it seems that people are only interested in ensuring that thier opinions are right.

Sad.

Betsy - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Lise:



Quoting Amanda:




Quoting Tamara:





Quoting Betsy:






Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)















Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.












I remember wathcing  CTV  a few years back where scientists stated that they may have found a break through regarding the cause of SIDS. they explained exactally what betsy described about the rebreathing  of CO2 as a cause of death in babies who both slept with a parent in an adult bed and tummy sleeping in a crib/pack and play.








please view the following links;








http://www.breathablebaby.com/pdf_downlo...








https://www.halosleep.com/client_files/Documents/ISC/white2.pdf








these are just 2 of the links I found. they are mainly to do with tummy sleeping but it is the same concept (a pocket of air surounding the face causeing the rebreathing of CO2. I just did a quick search and read the first 2 articles I found. there were pages full though so feel free to glance in your own time. :)








Oh I also have to say that the rebreathing of CO2 is just one of the few findings that scientists have come up with and is not the only theory.









I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)






A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.






I find it troublesome that some use feel that playing on the internet, reading websites, constitutes "research." I have stayed up-to-date with studies as I have to deal with cases of questionable deaths of infants, some which turn out to be classified as SIDS with and fatal levels of CO2, with no charges filed,  dealing closely with the doctors and medical examiners in each case, seeing the autopies firsthand and the cause of death reported on the death ceritificate, as well as the up-to-date scientific research as it becomes available. Sorry, but I don't find websurfing for 2 or 3 years as indepth, professional experience. That does give some authority on the subject. WIthout accurate information, that supercedes message boards and website research, a grieving parent could be falsely charged with the murder of their child, so I do take it very seriously, with much higher standards than the millions of website links passed around on parenting forums.

Dawn - posted on 06/12/2009

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I have three kids and three different sleepers. My oldest started sleeping on her own around 3 months, I didn't feed her anything special, she did this on her own. My middle child was over a year old before she started sleeping through the night. At 1 yr. I stopped giving her a bottle when she woke up and started soothing her without picking her up. It still took about six more months before she stopped waking up, now she sleeps great, she'll go in and lay down by herself and go to sleep whenever she is tired. My oldest has started waking up again during the night since we moved last year, she's 5. My baby is just over 3 months and has been sleeping through the night on his own since just before he turned 2 months, again not feeding him anything special. All of my kids slept in a crib in our room until they started sleeping through, then they were transitioned to their own room. My son still gets rocked to sleep, but just like his sisters at around 6 months he'll staart getting a set amount of time for rocking and if he isn't asleep, he'll still be but in his crib, and I will stay close by until he falls asleep, gradually decreasing the amount of time I stay in his room. After about two weeks he should be falling asleep on his own, maybe, it worked with his sisters. I don't see that as traumatizing my kids in any way. If they wake up, I go to them. My husband and I don't agree with letting them sleep in our bed. We tried when one of the girls was sick, no one got any sleep, so I went and slept next to her bed the next night. No, my house isn't always clean because the baby doesn't nap much and he likes a lot of interaction. Not always easy to dust and sweep or cook and do things with him. I think the sleep issue, teaching them to self-soothe and fall asleep on their own is no different than potty training. You have to help them learn, they don't just up and do it one day. And you can't just let them go indefinitely wearing diapers. At some point they have to learn to potty on their own. Its all part of helping them grow up to well adjusted, independent individuals. Their is a quote I love, we're not raising kids, we're raising adults. No, you can't expect certain things from an infant, but as they get older you have to stop treating them like an infant. As they start doing more things for themselves, praise them for it, that includes sleeping, praise them when they wake up, no matter how long it has been, for doing sooo gooood. I already praise my son and have since he was born. Praising them for their accomplishments helps them to feel secure and confident to do more. There is a fine line between helping your kids feel secure and know that you are there for them, and not letting them grow up because you do everything for them and don't let them learn to do for themselves.

Amanda - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Lise:



Quoting Amanda:




Quoting Tamara:





Quoting Betsy:






Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)















Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.












I remember wathcing  CTV  a few years back where scientists stated that they may have found a break through regarding the cause of SIDS. they explained exactally what betsy described about the rebreathing  of CO2 as a cause of death in babies who both slept with a parent in an adult bed and tummy sleeping in a crib/pack and play.








please view the following links;








http://www.breathablebaby.com/pdf_downlo...








https://www.halosleep.com/client_files/Documents/ISC/white2.pdf








these are just 2 of the links I found. they are mainly to do with tummy sleeping but it is the same concept (a pocket of air surounding the face causeing the rebreathing of CO2. I just did a quick search and read the first 2 articles I found. there were pages full though so feel free to glance in your own time. :)








Oh I also have to say that the rebreathing of CO2 is just one of the few findings that scientists have come up with and is not the only theory.









I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)






A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.






Hi lise, just to clarify I did not misuse any stats infact I never quoted any stats in the above post. I did find thoes articles on line and I am not looking at them in a biased stand point. If you had actually read the articles you would have seen they are unbiased giving both the findings of studies done by co sleeping advocates and scientists.I do not wish to prove any point. Personally I chose for my baby to sleep in her crib because that is what I fell comfortable doing.



I do want to clarify a few things though as it seems there is alot of bickering about the causes of sids and weather co sleeping or crib sleeping causes sids or reduces/increases sids.



The quick anserw is NO neither co sleeping or crib sleeping reduces or increases SIDS.



I realize some websites and online journals that you have access to may be biased as is with ALL topics regarding our children. I thought you should know (since you quoted me) I do have acess to REAL unbiased medical journals that the genral public do not have acess to. These are in a password protected data base and contain a lot of terminology that the general public may not understand. I am unable to post any of these journals because of copy right laws  blah blah blah. Ok so here is my unbiased post about cosleeping, cribs, accidental death and SIDS.



cosleeping:



1)Co sleeping does not cause SIDS. there are safe ways to co sleep and they are as follows:



use an extra firm matress, place bbay on back, do not leave baby alone on the bed. sleep with baby next to mom and not in the middle of the bed if the bed is shared by 2 adults (most moms are subconsciously aware the infant is in bed and will not roll onto them where as mots dads are not aware) do not use multiple puffy pillows, quilts and blankets. use a tightly fitted sheet. Do not sleep on a high bed, use a matress on the floor or a very low bed. All adults in the bed most not co sleep if they have been drinking, useing drugs including sleep aids, have a history of unprovoked seziures are  obese, are smokers and are natrually heavy sleepers.   all of these recomendations are to reduce the risk of an accidental death . even with these precautions accidents can still happen.



crib use:



1) cribs do not cause SIDS, there are safe ways to lay a baby to sleep in a crib.



never use the following items in a crib as they can cause suffication, over heating and can later be used as steps for an older baby to climb out with:m puffy blankets, toys, bumpers, crib wedges. place baby ok back.



always use a tight fitting matress with a tight fitting sheet. make sure the crib meets current safety standards  and was manufactured no earlier then 1991.(which can be found online)



these guidlines will help reduce accidental death.



 



SIDS:



1)there is no known direct cause of SIDS



2)SIDS has been linked to the possibility that  a defect in the way the brain stem handles a nerotransmitter called serotonin . The brain stem is the part of the brain  that connects to the spinal cord and controls unconscious processes like breathing and heart rhythm, and serotonin is part of this control system.



3) there is NO WAY to tell if your baby has the defect in the brain stem until the baby dies and an autopsy is performed.



4) the rebreathing of CO2 as a contributing factor to SIDS is because of this defect. The baby is rebreathng the same air over and over and where someone with a normal brainstem would know to turn their head or would wake up. a baby with the defect would not know and they would die.



to reduce the risk of sids you should follw safe sleep guidlines but if it is going to happen it will hapen weather the baby is in a crib or in bed with mom.



5)some co sleeping advocates believe that the mothers breathing will help regulate the infants breathing thus reducing the risk of sids.



 



OVERALL:



there is more accidental death from straglation, suffication, entrpment, falls and parental overlay while co sleeping safely than there is while sleeping in a crib safely. this is due to the added hazords of the adult bed (even a matress on the floor) that are not present in a crib.



 



Now I know you will come back at me by saying something about the rates of sids being lower in undeveloped countries but that is not valid do to the obvious that it is a underdeveloped country and has nothing to do with western society. Cross cultural comparrison are often biased and should not be used when determining if cosleeping reduces the risk or increases the risk of SIDS.

Amanda - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Lise:



Quoting Amanda:




Quoting Tamara:





Quoting Betsy:






Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)















Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.












I remember wathcing  CTV  a few years back where scientists stated that they may have found a break through regarding the cause of SIDS. they explained exactally what betsy described about the rebreathing  of CO2 as a cause of death in babies who both slept with a parent in an adult bed and tummy sleeping in a crib/pack and play.








please view the following links;








http://www.breathablebaby.com/pdf_downlo...








https://www.halosleep.com/client_files/Documents/ISC/white2.pdf








these are just 2 of the links I found. they are mainly to do with tummy sleeping but it is the same concept (a pocket of air surounding the face causeing the rebreathing of CO2. I just did a quick search and read the first 2 articles I found. there were pages full though so feel free to glance in your own time. :)








Oh I also have to say that the rebreathing of CO2 is just one of the few findings that scientists have come up with and is not the only theory.









I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)






A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.






I guess you did not take the time to READ the couple of links that I provided because if you had you would see that  health care professionals as a majority do not recomend it and SOME scientists have found the link of SIDS with the rebreathing of CO2. also on the same article it notes that SOME cosleeping advocates and scientist believe that co sleeping can reducae the risks of SIDS based on studies that they have found. Now the statement was not made that the rebreathing of CO2 is the only cause of sids but a contributing factor.



I do not understand where you see that I have misused statistics. I dont recall putting up any statistics just some scientific findings. I could go into some medical journals that the genreal public would not have access to but that would require me to wait for my husband to arrive home so he can give me his access code so that I may view them. Although I dont know what good that would do here because mass majority does not have access to the type of journals that I am talking about and I am unable to copy paste them or even give you a link.. I dont even have acess which is why I would need to use his information just to get copies of them.



anyway back to the point I think some people were asking, DOES CO SLEEPING CAUSE SIDS? the anserw is No, co sleeping does not cause sids. And for the advocates of cosleeping they may wonder, DOES SLEEPING ALONE IN A CRIB, BASSINET OR OTHER INFANT BED CAUSE SIDS? again the anserw is NO. SIDS as I mantioned earlier has no 1 direct cause but can be LINKED to several factors. I really did not want to get into these long drawn out posts but it seems with the short anserw and a couple of links at least one person is going to find something to say " yeah but" about.  OK so here we go, some things that I am sure MOST people know about SIDS but I will repeat again because everytime someone posts something about SIDS everyone seems to forget what they have allready been told about it.



1) cosleeping and sleeping in a crib DO NOT CAUSE SIDS.



2) there are both safe ways to co sleep and to sleep in a crib that will help REDUCE the risk of SIDS: when cosleeping the  infant should not be placed in the middle of the bed when the bed is shared by 2 adults, they should be placed next to MOM not dad and on moms side (again not in between mom and dad)  this is because MOST women subconsciosly know that baby is there thus not allowing them to roll over onto the baby even when they are sleeping. Majority of men are not able to do this. Puffy blankets, and a mass amount of pillows should not be used in the bed while co sleeping (risk of suffication). The baby must never sleep alone on the bed (risk of falls) so if you co sleep and baby sleeps before you it would be safest to first lay them in a bassinet and transfre them to the bed when you go to bed. Women who are heavy sleepers, on medication or who have been drinking and have a history of seziures should not co sleep or should opt to use a device called a cosleeper wich attaches securley to the bedisde for easy access to baby., place baby on his back to sleep. make sure baby is not coverd with to many layers as overheating is believed to be one of the contributing factors to SIDS. Make sure if you want to co sleep that you purchase an extra firm matress (suffication)



Ok onto safe crib sleep. buy a new crib, if you are buying a USED crib it needs to have been manufactured AFTER 1991 and meet all current safety standards. Although cribs are designed to keep babies sleeping safely accidents can happen, to reduce the risk of sids and accidental death while sleeping in a crib do not  place baby in a sleep wedge (suffication and entrapment) do not use bumpers (suffication and a step for older babies to use to get out of the crib) do not place stuffed toys, loose sheats and puffy quilts with the baby (suffication) do not over dress baby (see above) place baby on his back (see above) another thing that many people dont notice is MAKE SURE THE CRIB MATRESS FITS THE CRIB!!! this is so so so important and often overlooked as many people believe any crib matress will fit in any cribs. the matress should fit very snugly with no gaps, should not have rips or exposed springs and should be extra firm. if you are buying all new this will be easy because the items were manufactured close to the same time. a new crib with an old matress may not work and vice versa.



ok now onto some SIDS facts in general:



3) Environmental factors can contribute to SIDS including expoure to alcohal, drugs during pregnancy. second hand smoke, tummy sleeping, low birth rate, prematurity.



4)



4)there is no known single cause of sids however science has been able to link contributing factors that REDUCE the risk of sids



 

[deleted account]

By 13 months, babies should be able to sleep through the night. If they're not, then that means their sleep schedule is off. Sleep is very important for brain development-especially the type of sleep they get through the night (deep sleep).



It's also important to teach your kids to sleep well as babies so they won't have sleeping issues when they're adults. Babies have to LEARN how to fall asleep on their own (obviously, they cry or seek comfort when they can't fall asleep), so parents need to help them learn this by establishing a sleep schedule for their appropriate age.

[deleted account]

By 13 months, babies should be able to sleep through the night. If they're not, then that means their sleep schedule is off. Sleep is very important for brain development-especially the type of sleep they get through the night (deep sleep).



It's also important to teach your kids to sleep well as babies so they won't have sleeping issues when they're adults. Babies have to LEARN how to fall asleep on their own (obviously, they cry or seek comfort when they can't fall asleep), so parents need to help them learn this by establishing a sleep schedule for their appropriate age.

Lise - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Amanda:



Quoting Tamara:




Quoting Betsy:





Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)












Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.









I remember wathcing  CTV  a few years back where scientists stated that they may have found a break through regarding the cause of SIDS. they explained exactally what betsy described about the rebreathing  of CO2 as a cause of death in babies who both slept with a parent in an adult bed and tummy sleeping in a crib/pack and play.






please view the following links;






http://www.breathablebaby.com/pdf_downlo...






https://www.halosleep.com/client_files/Documents/ISC/white2.pdf






these are just 2 of the links I found. they are mainly to do with tummy sleeping but it is the same concept (a pocket of air surounding the face causeing the rebreathing of CO2. I just did a quick search and read the first 2 articles I found. there were pages full though so feel free to glance in your own time. :)






Oh I also have to say that the rebreathing of CO2 is just one of the few findings that scientists have come up with and is not the only theory.





I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)



A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.

Lise - posted on 06/12/2009

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22

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Quoting Amanda:



Quoting Tamara:




Quoting Betsy:





Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)












Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.









I remember wathcing  CTV  a few years back where scientists stated that they may have found a break through regarding the cause of SIDS. they explained exactally what betsy described about the rebreathing  of CO2 as a cause of death in babies who both slept with a parent in an adult bed and tummy sleeping in a crib/pack and play.






please view the following links;






http://www.breathablebaby.com/pdf_downlo...






https://www.halosleep.com/client_files/Documents/ISC/white2.pdf






these are just 2 of the links I found. they are mainly to do with tummy sleeping but it is the same concept (a pocket of air surounding the face causeing the rebreathing of CO2. I just did a quick search and read the first 2 articles I found. there were pages full though so feel free to glance in your own time. :)






Oh I also have to say that the rebreathing of CO2 is just one of the few findings that scientists have come up with and is not the only theory.





I find it very troublesome that people misuse statistics and choose to interpret data whichever way they please in order to prove their point. Neither of you are an authority on any of these topics and should not be spouting of your own version of what you've read. I commend you for doing research, but it should remain your own. If people want to do reasearch it is up to them to interpret what they are reading themselves. Scientific papers are great, but if you don't fully understand what you are reading, they can be quite misleading.  There are many reputable sites out there that present non-biased, easy to understand information and it is beyond me why you would present anything else on a site like this. (unless of course the opinion you want is not included there)



A lot of these topics should be covered by your family doctor or a health care official who knows what they are talking about. These forums should provide mothers with advice from other mothers based on personal experience for simple, uncomplicate, non-medical, non life-threatening topics. I think it is very irresponsible to talk as if you are an authority on a subject if you are not.

Amanda - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Melissa:



Quoting Amanda:




Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - i didnt write a rude comment to her. infact i wrote a comment that was quite respectful and all i got was crap. ask Melissa what was sent if you want to know ok. also i never said i agreed with CIO at 2 weeks. where the hell did i say that. i never said i agreed with the 4 month thing ether. i have been exchanging PM's with Bridie and i did tell her i dont agree with her choices but she is the mother and i am not going to disrespect her in public and insult her when everybody else clearly is im not going to join in. so please dont assume i agree with this just because i dont like to see someone gettting bagged on in public by so many people. been there done that. i remember her saying something about 8 minutes. 8 minutes is not hours. i would never have put up what betsy wrote had i gone and responded something nasty to her because i did not and then all i got was shit back and yes after that of course i am not going to be nice. anyway i hope this wont cause any trouble between us because i dont want any







melissa it is just that when you said that it is her choice and her buisness. I know you said it was wrong and I am happy to see that. It just seemed like you were trying to be a fence sitter on the situation when clearly this is black and white. ther eis no grey area here. she hit or "tapped" a baby and thats wrong, you know that. I hope in your PM you tell her that there are better ways of dealing with a 4 month old. I mean they cant even stand at that age.








With betsy how could I say one way or another what was going on. I saw only 1 messege she sent you and I did admit there were some rude remarks. The stats she mentioned are very real. that is just stats they do not apply to everyone as there are always exceptions to every rule.








I was not trying to offend or upset you. I am past all that crap and just want to create some open communication with you. Whats in the past is in the past and means nothing.








It was wrong of betsy to call you white trash and it was wrong of you to call her a bitch.









 






thankyou. i dont believe any 4 month old deserves to be hit, tapped , smacked any of it even if its not hard but i have to accept that shes the mother and she knows what shes doing. i think she is much like me in the way that some topics you cant change her mind and im not going to try because i think if something really wrong was going on someone would have stepped in but that is just me. i dont beleive a 4 month  old knows wrong from right nor do i believe they understand what a smack is but i guess all im trying to say is that i think she has enough people going off and i dont personally believe its the right way to deal with it.






well melissa I would like to think it is true that in cases of abused kids if something were really wrong someone would step in but the reality is that so often kids slip through the cracks of a flawed justice system who has failed to protect them. I have only been in human serives for 4 years but unfortunatly I have seen it happen all to often. Some parents are excellent of putting up a front in the presecence of law enforcment and social workers and with all the cases they handle on a daily basis some of the kids may get over looked.



It is our job to report people who seem suspicious and out of line and not just to send in a couple anonymous tips but to really drill it in to police AND CPS. for example, we unknowingly bought a house 2 doors down from a major prostitution and drug ring (and I do not mean a little ganja I mean cocaine, heroine, meth). we have called in activity several times, have witnessed ambulences at the house dealing with beatings and drug overdose, they were raided once but hid most of the stash so well that police could not find it had they spent the time to bring in the dogs these guys would be put away.



anyway after the first raid the house was fianlly assigned a Private Investigator and that was only after my husband and several neighbours went to our conservative party representative and complained . this has been an ongoing process that has taken thus far over a year. I know soon they will make a bust and these asshole will be gone but untill then we just have to keep reporting and making police aware. It is unfortunate that criminals have rights but it is the law that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Amanda - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Tamara:



Quoting Betsy:




Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)









Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.





I remember wathcing  CTV  a few years back where scientists stated that they may have found a break through regarding the cause of SIDS. they explained exactally what betsy described about the rebreathing  of CO2 as a cause of death in babies who both slept with a parent in an adult bed and tummy sleeping in a crib/pack and play.



please view the following links;



http://www.breathablebaby.com/pdf_downlo...



https://www.halosleep.com/client_files/Documents/ISC/white2.pdf



these are just 2 of the links I found. they are mainly to do with tummy sleeping but it is the same concept (a pocket of air surounding the face causeing the rebreathing of CO2. I just did a quick search and read the first 2 articles I found. there were pages full though so feel free to glance in your own time. :)



Oh I also have to say that the rebreathing of CO2 is just one of the few findings that scientists have come up with and is not the only theory.

Amanda - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Tamara:



Quoting Betsy:




Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)









Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.





I remember wathcing  CTV  a few years back where scientists stated that they may have found a break through regarding the cause of SIDS. they explained exactally what betsy described about the rebreathing  of CO2 as a cause of death in babies who both slept with a parent in an adult bed and tummy sleeping in a crib/pack and play.



please view the following links;



http://www.breathablebaby.com/pdf_downlo...



https://www.halosleep.com/client_files/Documents/ISC/white2.pdf



these are just 2 of the links I found. they are mainly to do with tummy sleeping but it is the same concept (a pocket of air surounding the face causeing the rebreathing of CO2. I just did a quick search and read the first 2 articles I found. there were pages full though so feel free to glance in your own time. :)



Oh I also have to say that the rebreathing of CO2 is just one of the few findings that scientists have come up with and is not the only theory.

Amanda - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Katie:



Quoting Melissa:




Quoting Betsy:

The state of Massachusetts actually isn't a warning against co-sleeping after 31 babies died in one year, in their parents' bed. The issue wasn't rolling on them, but when they are facing someone or a pillow, just like stomach sleeping, the area in which they breath is limited. They rebreathe from the air which they are exhaling, which is high levels of carbon dioxide. Just like with my friend's 4 mo old son, his CO2 levels were fatal, that is what they are finding with cases of SIDS. In her case, she didn't even co-sleep, but her husband worked nights. The baby woke, and she brought him in bed with her just until her husband came home an hour later. When he came in that hour later, the baby was gone due to SIDS/CO2 poisonong, as he lied on his side, facing his mom.

A big factor is the arcuate nucleus in the infants brainstem might not be developed at birth in all kids. That is what signals to the brain O2 levels are down and CO2 levels are getting dangerous. It happens with us nightly. I am sure we all have rolled over in our sleep, feeling like we need more air, or taken a blanket off our heads. That is the arcuate nucleus at work, signally us to get more oxygen and that we are getting high levels of carbon dioxide. In an infant, they either can't move yet to get more air, or in the case of an undeveloped arcuate nuclues, nothing is signalling them to even wake them. As of now, development of that important area of the brainstem can't be tested, but they are working on it, which would be wonderful for it to be a routine test to make parents aware their child is at high risk of SIDS, and it being completely preventable.

Not co-sleeping and placing children on their backs has dramatically reduced SIDS deaths when followed. Another tip that has been recommended for those who don't want to follow recommendations, and as an extra step for those who do, is placing a fan in the room where the child sleeps, which aids in circulating the air. Just a fan going in the corner helps that air to circulate room-wide. The white noise from the fan also does help many to sleep better, as we know white noise helps many to sleep. It's just an extra aid until the child might be able to get out of the crib, where a standing fan would be a safety hazrd, but by that time, risk of SIDS, lack of movement and development of the arcute nucleus are not issues of concerns anymore.







 








 








omg finally someone who talks some sense on the issue and has done thier home work. it was really helpful to me ill remember it with my next bubba thanks









You guys seem to know alot about this stuff...






At what age would it be ok to have the babe sleep a few nights with me without any risk? I have read 6 months tends to be the rule for SIDS and/or other suffocation issues.






Hi, maybe I can help with this one. Yes the risk of sids dramaticly decreases as the child gets older.  by the age of 6 months 95% of the babies who are going to die from sids have allready died. by the age of 1 it is pretty much not an issue. Health guidlines recomend that no child under 2 years share a bed with a parent. this is not do to sids put other factors such as parental overlay, suffication, strangleation and entrapment. After the age of 2 your child may become insecure if you start co sleeping at such an old age so personally I would only do it once and a while.

Sarah - posted on 06/12/2009

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As for the original post - no I can't explain the logic.  I was up with my son every time he cried and still do even thought he sleeps longer now.  I knew before I got pregnant that I would be in for sleepless nights.  My son spent the first 3.5 months of his life in the hospital so for that time my sleepless nights were caused by worry.  When he came home, he would only wake once or twice during the night.  Now he'll sleep for 10 hours straight, about 8pm to 6am, I don't go to bed until 10 or 11 pm (depends on if I'm working) but I'm up as soon as he is.





i do understand the logic of wanting a good nights sleep for baby and mum, i've stated before that i think sleep is really important to a happy, healthy baby and mum. However, i would like to say when my kids were teeny babies, i got up every time they cried, and attended to their needs, and i did so happily, it's part of the job. if my kids started waking up through the night again, i would do the same.



i don't think it's always about people being selfish, (not that you personally have said that) and wanting baby to sleep for their own gain. i'm sure there are mum's who are like that, but i'm sure there's LOADS of mum's who feel the way i do, that getting them into a good sleep routine is beneficial to babies.



anyway, i just wanted to point out to people, that although i've used CIO, (in my own little way) i was never really annoyed by the sleepless nights, and i've done my fair of them (haha!). i just think it's bettter for everyone if you can get a good sleep routine sorted. :)

[deleted account]

Quoting Melissa:



Quoting Betsy:

The state of Massachusetts actually isn't a warning against co-sleeping after 31 babies died in one year, in their parents' bed. The issue wasn't rolling on them, but when they are facing someone or a pillow, just like stomach sleeping, the area in which they breath is limited. They rebreathe from the air which they are exhaling, which is high levels of carbon dioxide. Just like with my friend's 4 mo old son, his CO2 levels were fatal, that is what they are finding with cases of SIDS. In her case, she didn't even co-sleep, but her husband worked nights. The baby woke, and she brought him in bed with her just until her husband came home an hour later. When he came in that hour later, the baby was gone due to SIDS/CO2 poisonong, as he lied on his side, facing his mom.

A big factor is the arcuate nucleus in the infants brainstem might not be developed at birth in all kids. That is what signals to the brain O2 levels are down and CO2 levels are getting dangerous. It happens with us nightly. I am sure we all have rolled over in our sleep, feeling like we need more air, or taken a blanket off our heads. That is the arcuate nucleus at work, signally us to get more oxygen and that we are getting high levels of carbon dioxide. In an infant, they either can't move yet to get more air, or in the case of an undeveloped arcuate nuclues, nothing is signalling them to even wake them. As of now, development of that important area of the brainstem can't be tested, but they are working on it, which would be wonderful for it to be a routine test to make parents aware their child is at high risk of SIDS, and it being completely preventable.

Not co-sleeping and placing children on their backs has dramatically reduced SIDS deaths when followed. Another tip that has been recommended for those who don't want to follow recommendations, and as an extra step for those who do, is placing a fan in the room where the child sleeps, which aids in circulating the air. Just a fan going in the corner helps that air to circulate room-wide. The white noise from the fan also does help many to sleep better, as we know white noise helps many to sleep. It's just an extra aid until the child might be able to get out of the crib, where a standing fan would be a safety hazrd, but by that time, risk of SIDS, lack of movement and development of the arcute nucleus are not issues of concerns anymore.





 






 






omg finally someone who talks some sense on the issue and has done thier home work. it was really helpful to me ill remember it with my next bubba thanks





You guys seem to know alot about this stuff...



At what age would it be ok to have the babe sleep a few nights with me without any risk? I have read 6 months tends to be the rule for SIDS and/or other suffocation issues.

[deleted account]

Quoting Wanda:



Quoting Vanessa:

Hi Tamara.....i think the big problem is in western culture most people live as single family units, therefore have little to no help in attending to the needs of a baby. One baby with one adult (even 2 adults) can be a strain.......as it really does take a village to raise a child. If parents weren't pushed to the limits during the day time hours through a lack of support from their community.....then maybe they would be better equiped to manage night time needs. Sadly, everyone is too busy doing their own thing and making money to help a woman raise her children.
Western culture holds the ideal of "individualism" and "independence" so high on their list of priorities....that they get confused and think you must teach a tiny child to be independent (when they are totally dependent). Truth is we in the west have much to learn from those who live primative lifestyles in simple kin groups.
And somewhere in the individualist western world......some idiot came up with an idea of how to make a buck and wrote a stupid book on training your child to sleep all night by leaving them alone to "self sooth" (the sugar coated way of saying, leave your child to cry alone, become so distrought that they are abondoned by their caregivers, vomit and fall asleep in a heap of despair and give up on their mother and the human race in general). Fact is there is much money to be made in the western world through convincing tired, unsupported parents their babies and young child should be sleeping all night alone......IE the sales of cots, baby monitors, musical toys, teddy bears with heart beats *oh please!*, those little security blankets, baby sleeping bags, dummies, artificial human milk, bottles, teats, books and "how to train your child to sleep"......the list goes on *sigh*. Marketing giants and formula companies have a lot to answer for. Unfortunately we have had the wool pulled over our eyes for far too long....
i truely believe....if you know better, you do better......and unfortunately solitary sleeping (sleep training, CIO etc) is SO INGRAINED in our culture.
i have educated myself (as you have) on the normal biological needs of babies and physiology of human lactation......and accept my role as a mother. Attending to my childrens needs are made easy through co-sleeping and breastfeeding (the biological expectation of a human infant).........only when more people accept this as normal and stop trying to separate themselves from their children will the BIG sleep issue go away.
Cultures that co-sleep and breastfed as the NORMAL way to parent do not have "problems" with sleep........blah blah blah.....
anyway Tamara, no point preaching to the converted (you already know all this and more).......just wish a few more people would embrace their childrens night time needs.....might make their parenting role a whole lot more enjoyable and their children a little more secure, considerate and empathetic.
enjoy sleeping with you little one......i know i do!!!!
p.s.... i always get a good nights sleep with my little one snuggled up to my breast.....
right where he belongs!
p.p.s....once upon a time a family in my country took a baby camping in the outback, the mother left her baby alone to sleep.......the baby was taken and eaten by a dingo (a wild dog).......proof right there babies are NOT designed to ever be left alone!
Have a good day (and night) everyone! :)





First I want to apolagize to the OP because I'm going to get off topic for a minute.  Reading this post really annoyed me.  I'm not one to bash others opinions, everyone has the right to their opinion but I don't think the products named in this post are as evil as the poster portrays them.  This post may get long, again I apolagize, but I would like to know how Vanessa would have done things were she to walk in my shoes.






My son was born 14 weeks premature weighting only 790 grams (1 lb 13oz).  I started pumping my milk so it could be tube fed to him.  He was given a pacifier (dummy) to help him learn to suck.  Depending on their gestational age, some preemies are born not knowing how to suck and have to learn how.  So in my eyes a dummy is a good thing.  As he got bigger and stronger we tried breastfeeding.  He would latch okay but didn't develope a strong enough suck, in oder to feed him we had to use a bottle.  Once again, in my eyes, bottles are a good thing.  I pumped milk faithfully every 3 hours for my son until it started to dry up after 7 months and was gone by 8 months.  Developemently, my son was no where ready for cows milk, so to insure my son was fed, I had to switch to "artifical human milk" (aka formula).  Once again, in my eyes, formula is a good thing.  One of the problems my son faced was apnea.  I was teriffiied that he would stop breathing in the night and that I wouldn't know so I bought a monitor - one with the sensor pad that goes under the mattress.  There was no way that I was going to get any sleep with out one.  With out it I would have been standing by his crib all night watching his chest rise and fall.  Monitors, a good thing.  He has a security blanket, he loves to feel the different textures on it and he's always loved musical toys.  He knows how to push the bottons on his and will sway back and forth to the music.  My son is 16 months old now, alive and doing well thanks to the "marketing giants" and "formula companies".  WIth out them, my son probably wouldn't still be with us.






As for the original post - no I can't explain the logic.  I was up with my son every time he cried and still do even thought he sleeps longer now.  I knew before I got pregnant that I would be in for sleepless nights.  My son spent the first 3.5 months of his life in the hospital so for that time my sleepless nights were caused by worry.  When he came home, he would only wake once or twice during the night.  Now he'll sleep for 10 hours straight, about 8pm to 6am, I don't go to bed until 10 or 11 pm (depends on if I'm working) but I'm up as soon as he is.






I agree that these products are not evil and I have used them. In fairness to Vanessa, I don't think her post was attacking these products as such or moms that use them. I think her post intended to attack western ideals and the companies who exploit them to make a buck. 

[deleted account]

Quoting Vanessa:

Hi Tamara.....i think the big problem is in western culture most people live as single family units, therefore have little to no help in attending to the needs of a baby. One baby with one adult (even 2 adults) can be a strain.......as it really does take a village to raise a child. If parents weren't pushed to the limits during the day time hours through a lack of support from their community.....then maybe they would be better equiped to manage night time needs. Sadly, everyone is too busy doing their own thing and making money to help a woman raise her children.
Western culture holds the ideal of "individualism" and "independence" so high on their list of priorities....that they get confused and think you must teach a tiny child to be independent (when they are totally dependent). Truth is we in the west have much to learn from those who live primative lifestyles in simple kin groups.
And somewhere in the individualist western world......some idiot came up with an idea of how to make a buck and wrote a stupid book on training your child to sleep all night by leaving them alone to "self sooth" (the sugar coated way of saying, leave your child to cry alone, become so distrought that they are abondoned by their caregivers, vomit and fall asleep in a heap of despair and give up on their mother and the human race in general). Fact is there is much money to be made in the western world through convincing tired, unsupported parents their babies and young child should be sleeping all night alone......IE the sales of cots, baby monitors, musical toys, teddy bears with heart beats *oh please!*, those little security blankets, baby sleeping bags, dummies, artificial human milk, bottles, teats, books and "how to train your child to sleep"......the list goes on *sigh*. Marketing giants and formula companies have a lot to answer for. Unfortunately we have had the wool pulled over our eyes for far too long....
i truely believe....if you know better, you do better......and unfortunately solitary sleeping (sleep training, CIO etc) is SO INGRAINED in our culture.
i have educated myself (as you have) on the normal biological needs of babies and physiology of human lactation......and accept my role as a mother. Attending to my childrens needs are made easy through co-sleeping and breastfeeding (the biological expectation of a human infant).........only when more people accept this as normal and stop trying to separate themselves from their children will the BIG sleep issue go away.
Cultures that co-sleep and breastfed as the NORMAL way to parent do not have "problems" with sleep........blah blah blah.....
anyway Tamara, no point preaching to the converted (you already know all this and more).......just wish a few more people would embrace their childrens night time needs.....might make their parenting role a whole lot more enjoyable and their children a little more secure, considerate and empathetic.
enjoy sleeping with you little one......i know i do!!!!
p.s.... i always get a good nights sleep with my little one snuggled up to my breast.....
right where he belongs!
p.p.s....once upon a time a family in my country took a baby camping in the outback, the mother left her baby alone to sleep.......the baby was taken and eaten by a dingo (a wild dog).......proof right there babies are NOT designed to ever be left alone!
Have a good day (and night) everyone! :)


First I want to apolagize to the OP because I'm going to get off topic for a minute.  Reading this post really annoyed me.  I'm not one to bash others opinions, everyone has the right to their opinion but I don't think the products named in this post are as evil as the poster portrays them.  This post may get long, again I apolagize, but I would like to know how Vanessa would have done things were she to walk in my shoes.



My son was born 14 weeks premature weighting only 790 grams (1 lb 13oz).  I started pumping my milk so it could be tube fed to him.  He was given a pacifier (dummy) to help him learn to suck.  Depending on their gestational age, some preemies are born not knowing how to suck and have to learn how.  So in my eyes a dummy is a good thing.  As he got bigger and stronger we tried breastfeeding.  He would latch okay but didn't develope a strong enough suck, in oder to feed him we had to use a bottle.  Once again, in my eyes, bottles are a good thing.  I pumped milk faithfully every 3 hours for my son until it started to dry up after 7 months and was gone by 8 months.  Developemently, my son was no where ready for cows milk, so to insure my son was fed, I had to switch to "artifical human milk" (aka formula).  Once again, in my eyes, formula is a good thing.  One of the problems my son faced was apnea.  I was teriffiied that he would stop breathing in the night and that I wouldn't know so I bought a monitor - one with the sensor pad that goes under the mattress.  There was no way that I was going to get any sleep with out one.  With out it I would have been standing by his crib all night watching his chest rise and fall.  Monitors, a good thing.  He has a security blanket, he loves to feel the different textures on it and he's always loved musical toys.  He knows how to push the bottons on his and will sway back and forth to the music.  My son is 16 months old now, alive and doing well thanks to the "marketing giants" and "formula companies".  WIth out them, my son probably wouldn't still be with us.



As for the original post - no I can't explain the logic.  I was up with my son every time he cried and still do even thought he sleeps longer now.  I knew before I got pregnant that I would be in for sleepless nights.  My son spent the first 3.5 months of his life in the hospital so for that time my sleepless nights were caused by worry.  When he came home, he would only wake once or twice during the night.  Now he'll sleep for 10 hours straight, about 8pm to 6am, I don't go to bed until 10 or 11 pm (depends on if I'm working) but I'm up as soon as he is.

Tamara - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Betsy:



Try some research. With comments like that, you can't expect to have credibility. Since the start of the human race, we have had many deaths from SIDS, influenza, TB, malnutrition, polio, AIDS, etc. Many things we have seen kill, and not one has killed off the entire population deeming the human race extinct, but that doesn't mean we didn't become educated, explore and use intelligence to determine how to stop the deaths in the future. If we all followed your use your use of "critical thinking", we could say people have had unprotected sex since the beginning of time and still do daily, and since HIV/AIDS hasn't killed off the human race yet, it must be ridiculous and untrue that unprotected sex can contribute to deaths regardless of what science has proven, so we should tell our kids to take the whole protecting yourself with abstinence or condoms with a hefty grain of salt. Common sense, intelligence and logic are wonderful things...let's use them :-)





Forgive my joking, I have a rather crass/inappropriate sense of humor and will toss a joke out at random moments.  However, I have done my research and I haven't seen anything on rebreathed CO2 being a cause of SIDS, esp. in a co-sleeping/bedsharing situation.

Kristy - posted on 06/12/2009

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Wow I'm stunned, first time I've read these posts. I have a 41/2 yr old son with autism born 6 weeks premmie and a 16mth old son born 5 weeks premmie. 1st son fed 4 hourly until he was 10 mths old being my first I didn't know any different or cared I just got up 4 hourly through the night and fed him, as we all do.I also felt being a prem he needed it. The special care nrusery he was in, in hospital also put him into this routine. My 2nd fed 3 hourly until he was 8 mths old, then he slept through for 8 hours. Both were a little different I tried to keep a routine but be flexible as we all know their routines change with their needs and development. Infants only cry to be changed, fed, they need sleep and maybe just to be comforted. Infants do not have the cognitive development to know any different.

We suffer mother guilt and worry that we are doing the right thing ,from the time we find out we have conceived and this will never stop. As an early childhood educator I felt i knew development and basic caregiving, but being a mother and having that different responsibilty that i do as a childcare worker blew me away. My sister who loves sleep and has 3, 4 and under has had 3 different sleep chn. Children need routine, it makes them feel safe and secure, this encourages positive emotional development. Children need consistency and a positve environment this enables them to feel confident with their primary caregivers and then they feel confidence in themselves and are able to try new things.

We are only human. The need for sleep is a natural reaction. My baby would wake for a feed and my husband would be reminding me he needs a feed and I would biitterly yell at him saying I know at 2 am, not that I didn't want to see my bub, but I was tired as we all get and that is ok!. Also having a very active son with autism meant I needed to be energised to be with him also. I don' t try to be supermum, cause i'm not.

Don't feel bad if you want your child to sleep maybe just be realistic of age. In Australia we have several parenting centres offering day or overnight stays that can help settle your child if you are having difficulties and provide helpful advice.

Sarah - posted on 06/12/2009

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well said Cathralynn, there's so many ways to implement CIO, and so many people seem to jump to the worst conclusion! i heard another mum on here refer to it as 'Whine-it out' which i thought was a fab way of putting it!!
there is a big difference between want and need, and i think it's important for everybody of any age (except teeny babies) to learn that, as the song goes, 'you can't always get what you want'.
i used my own method of CIO, tailored by my babies needs, and both my kids (who share a room) always sleep 11+ hrs a night (4yrs and 1yrs old), we're all refreshed in the morning and ready to face the day! (well, they are i need a few coffee's first haha!)
my youngest also has a 2-3hr nap a day too!!
as you said, pay attention to your childs cues and you'll do ok!! :)

Cathralynn - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Kylie:



Quoting Bridie:

For fricks sake you lot! I am gonna say it ONCE MORE - I had the full support of both my paediatrician and Plunket (a major well child provider in my country). He was dry, fed, cuddled and just didn't want to go to sleep. I put him down and he grizzled then cried for a minute (CRIED not screamed!!), grizzled again and when I went in to check on him he was asleep! All WITHIN 8 minutes!!! There is NOTHING illegal or abusive in that especially when I have the support of the people who are qualified!!!! He was being BF'd at 2 weeks but getting him to sleep didn't mean I didn't feed him regularly and he certainly wasn't sleeping through the night at 2 weeks nor would I expect him too! He was a large baby and was fed regularly, cuddled all day (I wore him) and to this day is adored by all of us.

As for *tapping* him on the bum that is a personally choice, NOT ILLEGAL in my country, he didn't even get upset which must say something even to you lot, he looked over his shoulder and smiled at me!!! It isn't the same as hitting or abusing AT ALL and all considering I think its awful that you would sling some accusations around in a public forum when you have no idea who I am!! You read one post that you don't agree with and you're saying I shouldn't have children, I should be in jail, I mean there is serious SERIOUS abuse going on around the world and telling me that I should have been given a hysterectomy or should have my children taken away simply because you do not AGREE with my methods (even though I stated that I had the support of all the right people in regards to the CIO, and the tap on his nappy wasn't illegal or even upsetting for him) is upsetting and small-minded. Considering I was living in a violent and abusive situation when my son was born I personally find it extremely offensive and I got very distressed reading some of the things people seemed to feel they had the right to throw at me! What happened to respect?? What happened to acceptance of differences and tolerance?? When I've already stated I had the backing and in fact was acting on the advice of the major well child providers in my country in regards to 'CIO', such as it was, why would you think you could tell me that I'm an awful mother??? When I've stated I'm expecting my second child and I'm so excited and I adore my son what on earth would possess you, as a mother yourselves, to tell me I should have my babies taken off me or have been forced to be sterilised, when as a mother you should know that thought is horrific? When I have done absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of the law in MY country or in the eyes of my paediatrician why would you feel it necessary to accuse me of child abuse??

My son is a very happy, very well-balanced child. We are under Plunket and also part of a Family course that regularly visit the home. Not only are they very happy for us that we're having another child, but its on record that our family unit is very solid, very happy and a wonderful environment for the child we have and any other children we bring into our home. We are registered as foster carers which includes a pretty thorough history check and I have no shame about the way I have brought up my son so far and have been open and straight-forward about how I discipline him and what I expect from him. Obviously nobody with any authority here has a problem with my parenting so I suggest that you think before you accuse people of such vile things!!!








I can see where you’re coming from but you can’t be saying you did CIO for only 8 min one night when your baby was 2 weeks and never did it again? I’m so sick of hearing mums say it only took 20 mins and one night and now my child has learned independence and sleeps through. My doctor told me don’t start cry out if your not prepared for up to 4 hours of crying the first night, 3 the next 1-2 the third etc etc and it can take unto a week to break your child then when they hit different developmental milestones you need the implement the CIO technique again.






If you’re smacking your baby at 4 months, how often have you smacked him in the past 2 years!? Surely the baby tapping incident wasn’t just a one off?






Your pediatrician sounds pretty heartless, what would she have said if your 2 week old had cried for 30 mins in stead of the 8??








So, not speaking about this womans mothering techniques since they are sooo disagreeable to mine and she doesn't seem to want to listen anyway, but would like to comment on CIO.  First of all I hate that term, and there are sooo many versions of that type of sleep training.  You should be prepared to commit for awhile but it CAN happen in one night.  My daughter already knew how to put herself to sleep, we never put her to sleep on a bottle.  And she stopped night feedings on her own around 3mo.  So I guess she sleep-trained herself, the hardpart! I let her cry because we had determined her issue at 8mo was separation anxiety and going in to comfort her led her to be awake for two hours or more.  I am adamantly against bed-sharing and had run out of other ideas after a month.  Knowing she didn't need to eat, was otherwise comfortable, not teething etc, we let her cry one night, off and on for an hour.  Seriously and she has never had that same waking pattern again.  So as an advocate for crying it out, with conditions of your baby is older and has all its needs met, I will say that since I know my daughter sleeps reliably though the night and has for months, if she wakes I still check on her make sure her needs are met before any other decision. And I have never had to resort to CIO again.  Pay attention to your childs cues and do your best.  But they are quick learners, and after 10mo or so they can cry to get what they want.  You have to decide if its want or need, and how you want to react.

Cathralynn - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Kylie:



Quoting Bridie:

For fricks sake you lot! I am gonna say it ONCE MORE - I had the full support of both my paediatrician and Plunket (a major well child provider in my country). He was dry, fed, cuddled and just didn't want to go to sleep. I put him down and he grizzled then cried for a minute (CRIED not screamed!!), grizzled again and when I went in to check on him he was asleep! All WITHIN 8 minutes!!! There is NOTHING illegal or abusive in that especially when I have the support of the people who are qualified!!!! He was being BF'd at 2 weeks but getting him to sleep didn't mean I didn't feed him regularly and he certainly wasn't sleeping through the night at 2 weeks nor would I expect him too! He was a large baby and was fed regularly, cuddled all day (I wore him) and to this day is adored by all of us.

As for *tapping* him on the bum that is a personally choice, NOT ILLEGAL in my country, he didn't even get upset which must say something even to you lot, he looked over his shoulder and smiled at me!!! It isn't the same as hitting or abusing AT ALL and all considering I think its awful that you would sling some accusations around in a public forum when you have no idea who I am!! You read one post that you don't agree with and you're saying I shouldn't have children, I should be in jail, I mean there is serious SERIOUS abuse going on around the world and telling me that I should have been given a hysterectomy or should have my children taken away simply because you do not AGREE with my methods (even though I stated that I had the support of all the right people in regards to the CIO, and the tap on his nappy wasn't illegal or even upsetting for him) is upsetting and small-minded. Considering I was living in a violent and abusive situation when my son was born I personally find it extremely offensive and I got very distressed reading some of the things people seemed to feel they had the right to throw at me! What happened to respect?? What happened to acceptance of differences and tolerance?? When I've already stated I had the backing and in fact was acting on the advice of the major well child providers in my country in regards to 'CIO', such as it was, why would you think you could tell me that I'm an awful mother??? When I've stated I'm expecting my second child and I'm so excited and I adore my son what on earth would possess you, as a mother yourselves, to tell me I should have my babies taken off me or have been forced to be sterilised, when as a mother you should know that thought is horrific? When I have done absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of the law in MY country or in the eyes of my paediatrician why would you feel it necessary to accuse me of child abuse??

My son is a very happy, very well-balanced child. We are under Plunket and also part of a Family course that regularly visit the home. Not only are they very happy for us that we're having another child, but its on record that our family unit is very solid, very happy and a wonderful environment for the child we have and any other children we bring into our home. We are registered as foster carers which includes a pretty thorough history check and I have no shame about the way I have brought up my son so far and have been open and straight-forward about how I discipline him and what I expect from him. Obviously nobody with any authority here has a problem with my parenting so I suggest that you think before you accuse people of such vile things!!!








I can see where you’re coming from but you can’t be saying you did CIO for only 8 min one night when your baby was 2 weeks and never did it again? I’m so sick of hearing mums say it only took 20 mins and one night and now my child has learned independence and sleeps through. My doctor told me don’t start cry out if your not prepared for up to 4 hours of crying the first night, 3 the next 1-2 the third etc etc and it can take unto a week to break your child then when they hit different developmental milestones you need the implement the CIO technique again.






If you’re smacking your baby at 4 months, how often have you smacked him in the past 2 years!? Surely the baby tapping incident wasn’t just a one off?






Your pediatrician sounds pretty heartless, what would she have said if your 2 week old had cried for 30 mins in stead of the 8??








So, not speaking about this womans mothering techniques since they are sooo disagreeable to mine and she doesn't seem to want to listen anyway, but would like to comment on CIO.  First of all I hate that term, and there are sooo many versions of that type of sleep training.  You should be prepared to commit for awhile but it CAN happen in one night.  My daughter already knew how to put herself to sleep, we never put her to sleep on a bottle.  And she stopped night feedings on her own around 3mo.  So I guess she sleep-trained herself, the hardpart! I let her cry because we had determined her issue at 8mo was separation anxiety and going in to comfort her led her to be awake for two hours or more.  I am adamantly against bed-sharing and had run out of other ideas after a month.  Knowing she didn't need to eat, was otherwise comfortable, not teething etc, we let her cry one night, off and on for an hour.  Seriously and she has never had that same waking pattern again.  So as an advocate for crying it out, with conditions of your baby is older and has all its needs met, I will say that since I know my daughter sleeps reliably though the night and has for months, if she wakes I still check on her make sure her needs are met before any other decision. And I have never had to resort to CIO again.  Pay attention to your childs cues and do your best.  But they are quick learners, and after 10mo or so they can cry to get what they want.  You have to decide if its want or need, and how you want to react.

Kylie - posted on 06/12/2009

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Tamara,

now that this thread has wormed it's way round the world and back!!!! I think that the logic behind the whole trying to get the baby to sleep longer, and the idea that you either have a bad baby or a bad mother if your baby isn't sleeping through the night basically comes back to the fact that western society as a whole is geared towards being selfish.



Now before anyone takes my head off let me explain. From a very young age we are taught, and not necessarily by our parents but by society in general, to think for ourselves, think of ourselves, make sure you are happy in yourself, make life easier for YOURSELF etc etc etc, so without even realising that it has happened we are programmed to basically put our own needs before anyone elses. I am not saying that mothers are consciously deciding that because they need a good 8, 10 12 hrs sleep they will use any means to get it. It just seems to me that it is an idea that has become refined through generations. Because we are unconsciously programmed to be more self aware and self driven in western societies we distance ourselves from our babies.



Mummy needs a good nights sleep so we'll put the baby in another room, mummy needs a good nights sleep so we'll put you onto formula or put something extra in the bottle, mummy needs to go back to work so that we can keep the dream alive so baby goes to day care for 10 hours.........etc etc etc



I am so NOT saying that there is anything wrong with any of these things, whatever works for individuals. I just think that people should remember, when they are planning to have a family or when they first find out that they are pregnant, you are about to become the source of life love an hope for a little person. The decisions that you make on how you raise that little person are going to shape their whole lives. At the start no-one knows what will work for them but as the baby starts to grow they very very quickly let you know what is right for them. You just need to be in tune with them. Easier said than done when you have had four hours broken sleep in a night, the baby won't stop crying and you have ten thousand people giving you ten thousand different bits of advice.



For what it's worth here is my advice, if your baby won't sleep through don't try and force them. If they have had an awful night with colic or just crying all night, try not to get angry at them, get angry at the pain or the situation but not the baby, They feel it and get more upset. Here is the thing I have found most helpful for myself, when they do finally go to sleep, don't rush off to do the house work or whatever, stop, sit down for five minutes, look at your little miracle, you made this, all this little person knows is that you are the one that they can rely on for ANYTHING, you are the one person who will eventually fix whatever is wrong, you are their world, so if babies won't sleep through the night who cares. If you don't get time to get your nails or your hair done, who cares!!!!!



I say wear that baby puke with pride, knowing you are a mummy is awesome



I think I kind of got off thread there a bit,



What I was basically trying to say it that the logic behind trying to force a baby to sleep longer is flawed. If the baby wants to sleep longer it will if it keeps waking it is for a reason. That reason needs to be tended to or worked through.

Kylie - posted on 06/12/2009

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Tamara,

now that this thread has wormed it's way round the world and back!!!! I think that the logic behind the whole trying to get the baby to sleep longer, and the idea that you either have a bad baby or a bad mother if your baby isn't sleeping through the night basically comes back to the fact that western society as a whole is geared towards being selfish.



Now before anyone takes my head off let me explain. From a very young age we are taught, and not necessarily by our parents but by society in general, to think for ourselves, think of ourselves, make sure you are happy in yourself, make life easier for YOURSELF etc etc etc, so without even realising that it has happened we are programmed to basically put our own needs before anyone elses. I am not saying that mothers are consciously deciding that because they need a good 8, 10 12 hrs sleep they will use any means to get it. It just seems to me that it is an idea that has become refined through generations. Because we are unconsciously programmed to be more self aware and self driven in western societies we distance ourselves from our babies.



Mummy needs a good nights sleep so we'll put the baby in another room, mummy needs a good nights sleep so we'll put you onto formula or put something extra in the bottle, mummy needs to go back to work so that we can keep the dream alive so baby goes to day care for 10 hours.........etc etc etc



I am so NOT saying that there is anything wrong with any of these things, whatever works for individuals. I just think that people should remember, when they are planning to have a family or when they first find out that they are pregnant, you are about to become the source of life love an hope for a little person. The decisions that you make on how you raise that little person are going to shape their whole lives. At the start no-one knows what will work for them but as the baby starts to grow they very very quickly let you know what is right for them. You just need to be in tune with them. Easier said than done when you have had four hours broken sleep in a night, the baby won't stop crying and you have ten thousand people giving you ten thousand different bits of advice.



For what it's worth here is my advice, if your baby won't sleep through don't try and force them. If they have had an awful night with colic or just crying all night, try not to get angry at them, get angry at the pain or the situation but not the baby, They feel it and get more upset. Here is the thing I have found most helpful for myself, when they do finally go to sleep, don't rush off to do the house work or whatever, stop, sit down for five minutes, look at your little miracle, you made this, all this little person knows is that you are the one that they can rely on for ANYTHING, you are the one person who will eventually fix whatever is wrong, you are their world, so if babies won't sleep through the night who cares. If you don't get time to get your nails or your hair done, who cares!!!!!



I say wear that baby puke with pride, knowing you are a mummy is awesome



I think I kind of got off thread there a bit,



What I was basically trying to say it that the logic behind trying to force a baby to sleep longer is flawed. If the baby wants to sleep longer it will if it keeps waking it is for a reason. That reason needs to be tended to or worked through.

Kylie - posted on 06/12/2009

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Tamara,

now that this thread has wormed it's way round the world and back!!!! I think that the logic behind the whole trying to get the baby to sleep longer, and the idea that you either have a bad baby or a bad mother if your baby isn't sleeping through the night basically comes back to the fact that western society as a whole is geared towards being selfish.



Now before anyone takes my head off let me explain. From a very young age we are taught, and not necessarily by our parents but by society in general, to think for ourselves, think of ourselves, make sure you are happy in yourself, make life easier for YOURSELF etc etc etc, so without even realising that it has happened we are programmed to basically put our own needs before anyone elses. I am not saying that mothers are consciously deciding that because they need a good 8, 10 12 hrs sleep they will use any means to get it. It just seems to me that it is an idea that has become refined through generations. Because we are unconsciously programmed to be more self aware and self driven in western societies we distance ourselves from our babies.



Mummy needs a good nights sleep so we'll put the baby in another room, mummy needs a good nights sleep so we'll put you onto formula or put something extra in the bottle, mummy needs to go back to work so that we can keep the dream alive so baby goes to day care for 10 hours.........etc etc etc



I am so NOT saying that there is anything wrong with any of these things, whatever works for individuals. I just think that people should remember, when they are planning to have a family or when they first find out that they are pregnant, you are about to become the source of life love an hope for a little person. The decisions that you make on how you raise that little person are going to shape their whole lives. At the start no-one knows what will work for them but as the baby starts to grow they very very quickly let you know what is right for them. You just need to be in tune with them. Easier said than done when you have had four hours broken sleep in a night, the baby won't stop crying and you have ten thousand people giving you ten thousand different bits of advice.



For what it's worth here is my advice, if your baby won't sleep through don't try and force them. If they have had an awful night with colic or just crying all night, try not to get angry at them, get angry at the pain or the situation but not the baby, They feel it and get more upset. Here is the thing I have found most helpful for myself, when they do finally go to sleep, don't rush off to do the house work or whatever, stop, sit down for five minutes, look at your little miracle, you made this, all this little person knows is that you are the one that they can rely on for ANYTHING, you are the one person who will eventually fix whatever is wrong, you are their world, so if babies won't sleep through the night who cares. If you don't get time to get your nails or your hair done, who cares!!!!!



I say wear that baby puke with pride, knowing you are a mummy is awesome



I think I kind of got off thread there a bit,



What I was basically trying to say it that the logic behind trying to force a baby to sleep longer is flawed. If the baby wants to sleep longer it will if it keeps waking it is for a reason. That reason needs to be tended to or worked through.

Lezlie - posted on 06/12/2009

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Wow, there's a lot of judging and finger pointing going on over a topic that is not necessarily "one size fits all" category. I breast fed and formula fed my now 13 month old, gave him cereal in his bottle from age 6 months onward, all in an attempt for him to be healthy...not to sleep through the night. However, from age 7 weeks onward, he slept 8-12 hours (through the night) on his own. I get up 1-5 times per night, every night, to check on him...because my mind gets going and I worry (that's a maternal instinct). He's also slept in his own bed (a pack n play in our room from newborn to 6 months and a crib in his own room from 6 months until now). Honestly, I tried the CIO method once, but it doesn't work for me or my husband...it breaks our hearts and I've found that our little guy cries for a reason...not to annoy us, but he doesn't cry often. So, I'm sorry for the moms that have to wake several times per night because your baby is calling you. All I can say is hang in there and know that you're not alone. There are no bad mommies who actually put their babies' interests ahead of their own and make sacrifices in their own lives for their children's sake. If your baby is loved, healthy and thriving...it doesn't matter what other people think. All babies and parenting styles are different, that's what makes this world a beautiful place and full of variety. BTW, I'm looking forward to another sweet baby, we're 26 weeks pregnant!

Melissa - posted on 06/12/2009

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Sarah I dont think we will ever know what goes on in some peoples heads believe me I havebeen wondering all day what she possibly could have been thinking but have come to no answer.,

Sarah - posted on 06/12/2009

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Routine routine is what I think. My little boy has had the same routine since the day he came out of hospital and still has his bath and bed time at seven. He started sleeping through the night from 9 weeks and we found it was just sticking to everything and not giving in. He now sleeps 13 hrs a night and has a 2 hr nap after lunch and is a very laid back loving 20 month old little boy. They need their sleep to grow and be healthy. My little boy gets very moody if he doesn't get his sleep. I recommend the book Baby Secrets by Jo Tantum and Barbara Watts as that that was my bible when my son first came out of hospital. It helps you get your little ones sleeping through the night by about 12 weeks and is a great tool for feeding.

Sarah - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Melissa:

By reading your post Bridie I can tell you are being sarcastic I infact was very angry when I wrote my post but if you do think I am wrond please go into your local social service office and ask for information on what they would consider abusive to a child... Then I have to ask whether or not you hit the baby hard or not what would be going on in your head to cause you either to want to do this or to think it amy help you... An infant doesnt understand a spank they are not developed enough to mentally or physically handle it.


you're so right about an infant not being able to understand a smack.........but what i don't understand, is what on earth could a 4 month do to warrant a smack?? or even a tap?? i just can't think of one single thing!! i mean, at 4 months they can't even move around! 

Mel - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Amanda:



Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - i didnt write a rude comment to her. infact i wrote a comment that was quite respectful and all i got was crap. ask Melissa what was sent if you want to know ok. also i never said i agreed with CIO at 2 weeks. where the hell did i say that. i never said i agreed with the 4 month thing ether. i have been exchanging PM's with Bridie and i did tell her i dont agree with her choices but she is the mother and i am not going to disrespect her in public and insult her when everybody else clearly is im not going to join in. so please dont assume i agree with this just because i dont like to see someone gettting bagged on in public by so many people. been there done that. i remember her saying something about 8 minutes. 8 minutes is not hours. i would never have put up what betsy wrote had i gone and responded something nasty to her because i did not and then all i got was shit back and yes after that of course i am not going to be nice. anyway i hope this wont cause any trouble between us because i dont want any





melissa it is just that when you said that it is her choice and her buisness. I know you said it was wrong and I am happy to see that. It just seemed like you were trying to be a fence sitter on the situation when clearly this is black and white. ther eis no grey area here. she hit or "tapped" a baby and thats wrong, you know that. I hope in your PM you tell her that there are better ways of dealing with a 4 month old. I mean they cant even stand at that age.






With betsy how could I say one way or another what was going on. I saw only 1 messege she sent you and I did admit there were some rude remarks. The stats she mentioned are very real. that is just stats they do not apply to everyone as there are always exceptions to every rule.






I was not trying to offend or upset you. I am past all that crap and just want to create some open communication with you. Whats in the past is in the past and means nothing.






It was wrong of betsy to call you white trash and it was wrong of you to call her a bitch.





 



thankyou. i dont believe any 4 month old deserves to be hit, tapped , smacked any of it even if its not hard but i have to accept that shes the mother and she knows what shes doing. i think she is much like me in the way that some topics you cant change her mind and im not going to try because i think if something really wrong was going on someone would have stepped in but that is just me. i dont beleive a 4 month  old knows wrong from right nor do i believe they understand what a smack is but i guess all im trying to say is that i think she has enough people going off and i dont personally believe its the right way to deal with it.

Mel - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Amanda:



Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - i didnt write a rude comment to her. infact i wrote a comment that was quite respectful and all i got was crap. ask Melissa what was sent if you want to know ok. also i never said i agreed with CIO at 2 weeks. where the hell did i say that. i never said i agreed with the 4 month thing ether. i have been exchanging PM's with Bridie and i did tell her i dont agree with her choices but she is the mother and i am not going to disrespect her in public and insult her when everybody else clearly is im not going to join in. so please dont assume i agree with this just because i dont like to see someone gettting bagged on in public by so many people. been there done that. i remember her saying something about 8 minutes. 8 minutes is not hours. i would never have put up what betsy wrote had i gone and responded something nasty to her because i did not and then all i got was shit back and yes after that of course i am not going to be nice. anyway i hope this wont cause any trouble between us because i dont want any





melissa it is just that when you said that it is her choice and her buisness. I know you said it was wrong and I am happy to see that. It just seemed like you were trying to be a fence sitter on the situation when clearly this is black and white. ther eis no grey area here. she hit or "tapped" a baby and thats wrong, you know that. I hope in your PM you tell her that there are better ways of dealing with a 4 month old. I mean they cant even stand at that age.






With betsy how could I say one way or another what was going on. I saw only 1 messege she sent you and I did admit there were some rude remarks. The stats she mentioned are very real. that is just stats they do not apply to everyone as there are always exceptions to every rule.






I was not trying to offend or upset you. I am past all that crap and just want to create some open communication with you. Whats in the past is in the past and means nothing.






It was wrong of betsy to call you white trash and it was wrong of you to call her a bitch.





 



thankyou. i dont believe any 4 month old deserves to be hit, tapped , smacked any of it even if its not hard but i have to accept that shes the mother and she knows what shes doing. i think she is much like me in the way that some topics you cant change her mind and im not going to try because i think if something really wrong was going on someone would have stepped in but that is just me. i dont beleive a 4 month  old knows wrong from right nor do i believe they understand what a smack is but i guess all im trying to say is that i think she has enough people going off and i dont personally believe its the right way to deal with it.

Amanda - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Bridie:

*SIGH* I agree Amanda, hitting a baby is not OK. Thankyou all for being so blunt and to the point.

I will be putting my son into foster care ASAP, having a termination and getting a hysterectomy.
I will ignore the shock and horror of my family (many who are in the medical profession and police force), my friends (also many who are in the medical profession and police force) and the other official type people in and out of my home.
I will ignore the fact that we recently had an indepth study done of our home by the courts and child, youth and family services due to us wanting to add another guardian to our sons records, and passed with flying colours.
I will ignore the fact that both our plunket nurse and Family Start worker have told us everytime they've seen us that we are doing such a great job and that our son is so wonderful and happy.
I will ignore the fact that my son has been found to have a very high IQ, is ahead in most everything for his age, and is the most cuddly, loving child I've ever met (yeah I may be a little biased but he is so gorgeous!).
I'll ignore the fact the everybody at his daycare thinks hes a total little spunk and loves to see him on his days there.
I'll ignore the fact that I was appointed my sons sole caregiver and given full custody after he was born because the courts believed, and put this on our records, that I was a mother who put my childs needs first and foremost and was doing a great job.
I'll ignore the fact that if it wasn't for my determination to do the absolute best by my son he would be growing up in an abusive home.
I'll ignore the fact that if it wasn't for my belief that something was wrong with my son and my determination to find out what it was he would be dead.

I'll ignore all those things, ignore all the positive opinions and encouragements of all the people in all the walks of life that I know in real life simply because I made the huge mistake of sharing information with a group of other mothers who I thought were pretty fairminded but instead a bunch of silly little woman who have brains the size of peas decided to abuse me over it and completely shake my faith in myself as a mother.

Y'all really know how to support one another. Y'all really know how to share your many different opinions and thoughts in a way that leaves everybody elses feelings intact. Y'all really support each other coz you understand that being a mother is the toughest job out there and you understand that different situations call for different decisions (which, before that situation came along, you may not have contemplated.).

Good on you!



Ok Birdie you go do thoes things and when your done you can fly on out of here because your posts are awful

Amanda - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Melissa:

Amanda - i didnt write a rude comment to her. infact i wrote a comment that was quite respectful and all i got was crap. ask Melissa what was sent if you want to know ok. also i never said i agreed with CIO at 2 weeks. where the hell did i say that. i never said i agreed with the 4 month thing ether. i have been exchanging PM's with Bridie and i did tell her i dont agree with her choices but she is the mother and i am not going to disrespect her in public and insult her when everybody else clearly is im not going to join in. so please dont assume i agree with this just because i dont like to see someone gettting bagged on in public by so many people. been there done that. i remember her saying something about 8 minutes. 8 minutes is not hours. i would never have put up what betsy wrote had i gone and responded something nasty to her because i did not and then all i got was shit back and yes after that of course i am not going to be nice. anyway i hope this wont cause any trouble between us because i dont want any


melissa it is just that when you said that it is her choice and her buisness. I know you said it was wrong and I am happy to see that. It just seemed like you were trying to be a fence sitter on the situation when clearly this is black and white. ther eis no grey area here. she hit or "tapped" a baby and thats wrong, you know that. I hope in your PM you tell her that there are better ways of dealing with a 4 month old. I mean they cant even stand at that age.



With betsy how could I say one way or another what was going on. I saw only 1 messege she sent you and I did admit there were some rude remarks. The stats she mentioned are very real. that is just stats they do not apply to everyone as there are always exceptions to every rule.



I was not trying to offend or upset you. I am past all that crap and just want to create some open communication with you. Whats in the past is in the past and means nothing.



It was wrong of betsy to call you white trash and it was wrong of you to call her a bitch.

Melissa - posted on 06/11/2009

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By reading your post Bridie I can tell you are being sarcastic I infact was very angry when I wrote my post but if you do think I am wrond please go into your local social service office and ask for information on what they would consider abusive to a child... Then I have to ask whether or not you hit the baby hard or not what would be going on in your head to cause you either to want to do this or to think it amy help you... An infant doesnt understand a spank they are not developed enough to mentally or physically handle it.

Melissa - posted on 06/11/2009

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By reading your post Bridie I can tell you are being sarcastic I infact was very angry when I wrote my post but if you do think I am wrond please go into your local social service office and ask for information on what they would consider abusive to a child... Then I have to ask whether or not you hit the baby hard or not what would be going on in your head to cause you either to want to do this or to think it amy help you... An infant doesnt understand a spank they are not developed enough to mentally or physically handle it.

Mel - posted on 06/11/2009

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Amanda - i didnt write a rude comment to her. infact i wrote a comment that was quite respectful and all i got was crap. ask Melissa what was sent if you want to know ok. also i never said i agreed with CIO at 2 weeks. where the hell did i say that. i never said i agreed with the 4 month thing ether. i have been exchanging PM's with Bridie and i did tell her i dont agree with her choices but she is the mother and i am not going to disrespect her in public and insult her when everybody else clearly is im not going to join in. so please dont assume i agree with this just because i dont like to see someone gettting bagged on in public by so many people. been there done that. i remember her saying something about 8 minutes. 8 minutes is not hours. i would never have put up what betsy wrote had i gone and responded something nasty to her because i did not and then all i got was shit back and yes after that of course i am not going to be nice. anyway i hope this wont cause any trouble between us because i dont want any

Bridie - posted on 06/11/2009

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*SIGH* I agree Amanda, hitting a baby is not OK. Thankyou all for being so blunt and to the point.



I will be putting my son into foster care ASAP, having a termination and getting a hysterectomy.

I will ignore the shock and horror of my family (many who are in the medical profession and police force), my friends (also many who are in the medical profession and police force) and the other official type people in and out of my home.

I will ignore the fact that we recently had an indepth study done of our home by the courts and child, youth and family services due to us wanting to add another guardian to our sons records, and passed with flying colours.

I will ignore the fact that both our plunket nurse and Family Start worker have told us everytime they've seen us that we are doing such a great job and that our son is so wonderful and happy.

I will ignore the fact that my son has been found to have a very high IQ, is ahead in most everything for his age, and is the most cuddly, loving child I've ever met (yeah I may be a little biased but he is so gorgeous!).

I'll ignore the fact the everybody at his daycare thinks hes a total little spunk and loves to see him on his days there.

I'll ignore the fact that I was appointed my sons sole caregiver and given full custody after he was born because the courts believed, and put this on our records, that I was a mother who put my childs needs first and foremost and was doing a great job.

I'll ignore the fact that if it wasn't for my determination to do the absolute best by my son he would be growing up in an abusive home.

I'll ignore the fact that if it wasn't for my belief that something was wrong with my son and my determination to find out what it was he would be dead.



I'll ignore all those things, ignore all the positive opinions and encouragements of all the people in all the walks of life that I know in real life simply because I made the huge mistake of sharing information with a group of other mothers who I thought were pretty fairminded but instead a bunch of silly little woman who have brains the size of peas decided to abuse me over it and completely shake my faith in myself as a mother.



Y'all really know how to support one another. Y'all really know how to share your many different opinions and thoughts in a way that leaves everybody elses feelings intact. Y'all really support each other coz you understand that being a mother is the toughest job out there and you understand that different situations call for different decisions (which, before that situation came along, you may not have contemplated.).



Good on you!

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