breastfed babies vs non breastfed babies being compared

*Fluffy Bunnies - posted on 07/25/2010

This thread is going to be locked now. There have been several posts flagged and it seems to be riddled with misinformation and judgements. If you are interested in debates like this you might like the debating group:
http://www.circleofmoms.com/parenting-de...

Controversial topics are welcome there, but here we'd like to support one another.

Thanks,
Sara
Admin

Lisbeth - posted on 07/25/2010

Jenn- thank you for the articles the were a good read. I also think that a lot of ppl are missing other factors of breast feeding like a breast feed baby is less likely to suffer mental health problems how will you ever know that that won't be affected either way bf or not. I personally don't want to take the risk of my babies mental health for my convinces ( if you have no choice) that is something you won't find out until later on in life so say things like I formula fed my baby and he is fine how sure are you of that ( not saying that bf babies won't suffer mental health problems just saying their is less risk)

Pamela - posted on 07/25/2010

Christi, I don't know a single mother who would try to make another mother feel guilty about not being able to breastfeed. If I did hear someone say something like that I'd be quick to tell them that that type of thing is unacceptable to me.
I think some mothers do wonder about other's decisions to formula feed, but as I said at the end of my post, as long as the baby is ok, to each their own. Nobody should be forced to do something they aren't comfortable with.

Reading back over my post I can't see an attack on anyone. I did however, say that from what you had written, it looked like you have prejudices against breastfeeding.
You ammended that yourself to having prejudices against "moms who push other moms and make them feel bad because they chose not or could not breastfeed".


I think it fair to say that mothers who formula feed, and mothers who breastfeed both, at times, can find themselves villified for their choices. Such a hostile environment towards mothers all round isn't productive.

Healthy mothers and babies are all that matters in the end.

Jenn - posted on 07/25/2010

Claire Cotton-
You think that the government should try to outlaw formula? Well, they have tried. The WHO (world health organization) UNICEF (united nations children's fund), and their member states (including the USA) at the World Health Assembly in 1980 formed the International Code of Marketing Breastmilk Substances that attempted to outlaw the marketing of breastmilk to anyone but a health professional. This is what the code states:
5.1 There should be no advertising or other form of promotion to the general public
of products within the scope of this Code.
5.2 Manufacturers and distributors should not provide, directly or indirectly, to
pregnant women, mothers or members of their families, samples of products within
the scope of this Code.
5.3 In conformity with paragraphs 1 and 2 of this Article, there should be no point-
of-sale advertising, giving of samples, or any other promotion device to induce sales
directly to the consumer at the retail level, such as special displays, discount coupons,
premiums, special sales, loss-leaders and tie-in sales, for products within the scope of
this Code. This provision should not restrict the establishment of pricing policies and
practices intended to provide products at lower prices on a long-term basis.
5.4 Manufacturers and distributors should not distribute to pregnant women or
mothers or infants and young children any gifts of articles or utensils which may
promote the use of breast-milk substitutes or bottle-feeding.
5.5 Marketing personnel, in their business capacity, should not seek direct or
indirect contact of any kind with pregnant women or with mothers of infants and
young children.

The problem is that the formula companies just don't care about the health of women and children. They care about money.

Here is a link to the entire code if anyone wants it: http://www.who.int/nutrition/publication...

Christi - posted on 07/25/2010

damn you are just attacking everyone. i don't have prejudices against breastfeeding, i have predjudices against moms who push other moms and make them feel bad because they chose not or could not breastfeed.

Emma - posted on 07/25/2010

not forgetting statistics can be fudged. i breast fed my girl the first week of her life, due to her dramatic weight loss, jaundice causing sleepyness and becoming 'milk drunk' as my nurse told me, caused us to choose to give our daughter formula. When i left the hospital and they filled out my discharge forms they ticked that i was exclusively breast feeding, when by that point they had been made aware that she was on bottles for 3 days at that point, and gaining weight... She has also never been sick, no runny noses, no coughs, nothing. I am also an at home mum. She doesnt go to daycare or anything, but has loads of contact with other people while out and about during general day to day errands.

Pamela - posted on 07/25/2010

"There is obviously not enough strong evidence to prove that breast is so dramitically better than formula otherwise surely the goverment would try to out law formula and only provide it on perscription for medical or extreme circumstances?? I just think that there is so much pressure on mums to breast feed now days that it can cause more anxiety and upset for both mother and baby if it doesnt work so well and surely making a mother feeling guilty if it doesnt work out could be a cause of some post natal depression." -Claire Cotton

Do you really thing that about the govt? You spend money on formula and one way or another most govts are going to get a cut of it. Its not exactly in their best financial interests to outlaw formula. And if they did what else would they have to ban in the interests of our health? Ciggarettes, alcohol, McDonalds...? I don't think it would happen. lol
As for guilt over not being able to breastfeed being a possible cause of PND, it wouldn't surprise me at all. But even without external factors and pressure, I'm sure most mothers who want to breastfeed but are unable to would feel guilt, or shame, or even grief.
I read an article recently about your body grieving your child's 'death' when you don't breastfeed. Basically it said that your body is hardwired to feed the child it has grown, and when you don't feed your body responds as if that child is dead (despite the child being safe and well).
I wondered at the time how many people might find a way to explain thier PND after reading that article.


"I couldn't breast feed, either, due to medical reasons, and I must say I resent it when I read all these articles about breast feeding and how great it is for babies and it really gets on my nerves when mothers brag about how many months they breast fed. I really wish people can be more sensitive to people that wanted to and couldn't. My daughter is almost 14 months old and she has a very good immune system thank God, so why send women on guilt trips when they just couldn't do it?" - Hannah S Farran

I'm sorry you were unable to breastfeed your child.
Personally I've breastfed my daughter for almost a year now, and I know I would have been devestated had I been denied the opportunity to at least try to breastfeed.
I don't brag about my breastfeeding, but if I were so inclined to have a little boast, I think that is my right. Breastfeeding can be hard, tiring and isolating (not always, but at times) and I'm proud of myself for sticking with it, despite latching issues, mastitis and teething (oww!). I also like to brag about those new teeth, first words, and the fact that my little monkey girl will try to climb anything that stays still long enough.
You shouldn't see these things as personal attacks. Just think of how proud you are of your child, and everything concerning her. If you want to brag occassionally, isn't that your right?

Perhaps your boasts of a child with a perfect immune system could be equally hurtful to a mother whose child's immune system is compromised, which I'm sure is not the in the spirit your comments would have been meant.



"i never breastfed my son, never made a drop of milk and he is healthier than alot of breastfed babies i know.... ... i think it is funny that some people are saying that formula is not good for your child. breastmilk is great yada yada yada. ... i am happy you can make milk and chose to breastfeed, but i don't want to hear about it and i certaintly don't want to hear about how i am so horrible and wrong for feeding my son formula." - Christi Thompson
You say you don't want to hear that you are horrible and wrong for formula feeding your son. Look at the language you use when you talk about breastfeeding. It looks to me, from what you have written, like you have some prejudices of your own against breastfeeding.


Chesnie- Yours is an interesting point, but I think it would be very hard to actually put such a study into practise (if it were to happen I'd be interested to see the results, as I'm sure would most mothers).

I think all that really matters in the long run is the health and well being of the child, and if your child is fine on formula, thats great. My child is fine being breastfed, and thats pretty damn good too. To each their own. :)

Salena - posted on 07/25/2010

I understand where you all coming from i really want to brestfeeding but I couldn't I tryed eveything but nothing worked I had a really big baby 11lbs 13oz and I didn't make enough for him .. and find it hard getting him on the boob. It is eveyone chioce to breastfeed or not .. what is best for you at the time. yup eveyone says breastmilk is best but sometimes you can't and no one has the right to judge anyone if they do or not. what evea way you go brestfeed or the bottle as long as your baby is heathy I don't think its that much of a big deal as so many people make it out it is!!

Christi - posted on 07/25/2010

i think it is funny that some people are saying that formula is not good for your child. breastmilk is great yada yada yada. it is the mother's choice whether or not to breastfeed. some women i know cannot even fathom the idea of breastfeeding because it feels wrong to them. some, like me, never produce a drop of milk or can't breastfeed for medical reasons. i have even known a few moms who can't do it because they don't have the time to sit and pop out a boob, which i don't agree with that argument but whatever. statistic and crap are just that, crap. so many children are so healthy on formula. it just comes down to the choice you make. it is kinda of sad that some moms are so pushy when it comes to breastfeeding, it gets really old. i am happy you can make milk and chose to breastfeed, but i don't want to hear about it and i certaintly don't want to hear about how i am so horrible and wrong for feeding my son formula. not trying to attacking anyone, just a generalized statement.

Christi - posted on 07/25/2010

that's very true. i never breastfed my son, never made a drop of milk and he is healthier than alot of breastfed babies i know. i do think the reason is that i stay at home with him and we have good health care. daycare is a breeding ground for contagious viruses and such, ew.

Samantha - posted on 07/24/2010

As long as the baby is healthy, happy and active it doesnt matter if he or she is breastfed or formula fed. At the end of the day all that matters is little babies being healthy.

Lyndsay - posted on 07/24/2010

You're right. I completely agree with you that there are far too many variables to consider when assessing a child's health. Formula vs. breastmilk is just one such variable, but there are many different things that may influence the kid's health one way or another.

Chesnie - posted on 07/24/2010

jenna- no you did fine. I enjoy your responses :)

Genia - posted on 07/24/2010

I get what you're saying - there are a lot of factors, and just one thing is not going to seal the deal. :)

Karmi - posted on 07/24/2010

I don't think it matters whether a baby is breatfeed or not. I worked in a daycare for 7 years and breastfeed babies were just as sick as not breastfeed babies. My son wasn't breastfeed due to complications after birth and he has been pretty healthy other then the common cold. I nanny for a family that has breatfed both of their kids until they were a year and one of the kids had croup, had his adnoids and tonsils removed by the time he was 16 months because he was always so sick. So I honestly don't think it is better either way. Yea I wish I could have breastfed my son, but I couldnt. So I think it is up to what the mother is comfortable and able to do.

Chesnie - posted on 07/24/2010

Valerie-I was thinking the same thing. my daughter and I stared into each others eyes while she was feeding and we bonded as much as if I was bf-ing her...

Dawn - posted on 07/24/2010

honey it is a myth and everybaby is different try breast feeding it might not be for you or your baby, my daughter after3 days did not take to breastfeeding and she was vey sick with formula so if your thiking about it try it out bfore you decide and goodluck

Hanah - posted on 07/24/2010

Caroline, it is a known fact that girls have a much better immunity than boys, so it might not be the breast milk that's making them so different... just a thought

Caroline - posted on 07/24/2010

It appears as though what you see in action is what you believe....I breastfed my son for a very short time and my daughter until she was over 2 years and she has by far a better immunity and health than my son did.....I mean a huge difference between them!

But then all kids are different,breatfed or not so of course there are some non breastfed children out their that are healthier than breatfed but overall........I would imagine from the start breastfed children have a stronger immune system however I'm under the belief that unless you're going to breastfeed substantially,like until you're child is 2 then they are not going to get the absolute best from breast feeding..........as in my experience children who have been taken off the breast too early seem to get sick more often than their bottle from the start counterparts!!

Valerie - posted on 07/24/2010

I definitely agree. I don't breastfeed my son and he has never gotten sick. Very healthy and growing strong. I also hold my son while I feed him his bottle, so I don't see how breastfeeding would be any different with the touching theory. I agree with what Jenna says.

Hanah - posted on 07/24/2010

I couldn't breast feed, either, due to medical reasons, and I must say I resent it when I read all these articles about breast feeding and how great it is for babies and it really gets on my nerves when mothers brag about how many months they breast fed. I really wish people can be more sensitive to people that wanted to and couldn't. My daughter is almost 14 months old and she has a very good immune system thank God, so why send women on guilt trips when they just couldn't do it?

Shannon - posted on 07/24/2010

While it is a mother's choice, some women do choose to formula feed for the wrong reasons (the one I hear most around here is that WIC provides formula for free so it is easier for them to not have to be the one feeding their baby)...

On that note though, if you know all the risks and benefits from both sides and make your own decision based on what you feel is right for you and your family then you have made the right decision.

Jenn - posted on 07/24/2010

It is a mom's choice to do what is best for her particular situation but why do so many people ignore facts? There is a very real difference between the two types of nutrition.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...
I am not judging anyones choice but saying that breastmilk and formula are the same is like comparing a strawberry with strawberry flavoring; they are both strawberry but VERY different.

Sarah - posted on 07/24/2010

i totaly agree i breastfed one of my children and not the other one. theres no difference in them at all. when i went bck to work it was always my breastfed child that caught every bug going.

Claire - posted on 07/24/2010

Does it really matter as long as the child is loved, well taken care of and in a happy enviroment? There is obviously not enough strong evidence to prove that breast is so dramitically better than formula otherwise surely the goverment would try to out law formula and only provide it on perscription for medical or extreme circumstances?? I just think that there is so much pressure on mums to breast feed now days that it can cause more anxiety and upset for both mother and baby if it doesnt work so well and surely making a mother feeling guilty if it doesnt work out could be a cause of some post natal depression.

Also a lot of you are saying your breast fed kiddies didnt get ill till you stopped at between 6 months to 1 year but isnt that also the age when babies get more mobile and explore the enviroment more, thus leaving them open to more infections?

(For the record I did breast feed for 3 months and stopped when I started weaning and Im perfectly happy with my decision, I in no way feel I have let my child down or am uneducated. I have a happy healthy and well developed little boy.)

Christina - posted on 07/24/2010

I have three children, 2 boys and 1 girl! My four year old son was bottle fed and my 8 month old son is currently being bottle fed. My daughter, who will be 3 the end of August, was breastfed! I see nothing wrong with doing either. It should really be up to the mother. Even though my daughter was breastfed, she is just as healthy as her brothers who weren't, even though her older brother is asthmatic. If somebody says breastfed babies are healthier or smarter than bottle fed babies, just let it go in one ear and out the other!

Lacye - posted on 07/23/2010

i agree chesnie! my daughter will be 14 months in a few days, i tried to breast feed but i had gotten sick and by the time i was better, my milk had dried up. now i take my child out in public, even when she was little! but she has never been sick but like 1 time. i have a niece who has a daughter 4 months younger than mine and she was kept at home most of the time and she was a lot more sick than my daughter was.

K - posted on 07/23/2010

Just because your baby is healthy and was formula fed, doesn't mean that years of scientific study are wrong. Studies consistently show that OVERALL breastfed babies are healthier, have a lower rate of obesity, and a higher immune tolerance. There are always exceptions, it's great that your daughter is healthy!

Jenna - posted on 07/23/2010

That's perfectly fine, Jenn. That's why I said it was a friendly response, I'm not trying to put down what you do or anything of the sort. Don't take the statistic comment as anything other than a funny, but polite comment. The OP brought up the topic of how the studies are conducted and whether the groupings and the variations in the real world affect these studies about breastfed versus bottlefed.



Yes, you can compare breast milk to formula, every day, and its chemical make-up is completely different. Breast milk will always (knock on wood - until science figures that out) have antibodies that formula doesn't, however, who is to say that one woman's breastmilk is the same as another's? As I was saying, we are human beings - no human woman will produce the exact same "quality", if you will, of breastmilk. Each individual woman has different factors that will affect her breast milk, whether environmental, medical, genetic, etc... So, testing 1 sample of women's breast milk will yield just as many different genetic composites as there are women. I'm not saying it's good, bad, indifferent either way. I was addressing the issue of where the "studies" come from and are they really a good sample of women to be conducting such research.



:)



@ Chesnie, feel free to correct me if I went the wrong direction on what you said. But either way, a great way to look at usual hot topic. It didn't seem as if you were going for an argument over breastfed vs bottlefed, but more of a discussion over how the studies are done to get to those conclusions and the faults it presents ...

Sarah - posted on 07/23/2010

While I do agree that breastmilk is a healthier choice than formula, I think there are a lot of different factors out there that can contribute to the health of a baby. When my son was 8 weeks old, he caught a very mild cold from a relative when we got together for the holidays...and I was breastfeeding him at the time. Soon after that, I went exclusively to formula & my son hasn't been sick once (he is 10 months old now).

But, I think his good health also has a lot to do with the fact that he doesn't go to daycare & both his father and I have very strong immune systems. So, yes Chesnie, I agree with you that other factors should be considered when looking at the health of a baby & not just on whether or not they were breastfed.

I think regardless of whether you breastfeed or formula feed...all of us mothers are doing the best we can for our babies! Keep up the good work moms! :)

Amber - posted on 07/23/2010

jenn amann you put it perfect!!!!!:) proud breastfeeding mom of a 15 month old and planning to go until she self weans:)

Jenn - posted on 07/23/2010

Chesney-
Sometimes you can't help the cards you draw, formula is a lifesaving choice when you can't breastfeed! I am very happy that your little one is doing so well : ) I never meant to insinuate that you were uneducated about your decision.
Jenna-
First of all, I want to make it clear that I did not say that anyone on here was not educated because of their choices. What I did say was that from my experiences as a doula, I have been shocked at how many people did not know the facts when it came to the risks of formula and benefits of nursing. I believe that every woman has the right to make their own choice and the right to have all the best most current information to make their choice with. That is what a doula does: provides accurate information to let the couple make their own choices. Everything I have devoted my life and education to has been to help empower women, not judge or degrade them for their informed decisions.

Behaviors are variables and do influence results when you are studying behavior but when you are studying a static source of nutrition (ie: breastmilk or formula) you do not have that variable. The chemical make up of breastmilk and the chemical make up of formula is what I am comparing, not the differences of the families that choose one or the other. You say that anyone can rattle off statistics but chemical make up can not influenced and stays the same no matter the study.

Here is an article that compares formula to breastmilk. Information empowers any argument : )
http://bellybelly.com.au/articles/pregna...

Jenna - posted on 07/23/2010

@ Tarra, my son first son was the complete opposite. He has his daddy's near perfect immune system (and his stubbornness! lol). I'm the sick one in the family lol.

Tarra - posted on 07/23/2010

i didnt brest feed cause i didnt feel comfortable with it. but i agree with u. my son is almost 5 months now and we had to switch formula to simalic sensitive but my husband has a very weak immune system so i think my son inherented his side of the genes. me im good. hope this helps

Jenna - posted on 07/23/2010

Just a friendly response. We actually had discussed this before in one of my comparative biology courses.

No one is implying that a difference isn't there. Just that the "studies" and "statitics" are not comparative for all populations and situations. :)

Honestly, anyone can rattle off statistics from this organization, that website, this doctor, that doula, this saturday morning character, or that elvis-shaped piece of toast ... ;)

IMO, it is not fair to consider anyone uneducated because of their choices. Consider someone uneducated if they do not care to ask. The reality is most statitics and studies are based off a single group of people, all with differences which actually hinder true results. When using people for a study there is no real way to offer a fail proof such as a "double blind" to keep the results from being tampered in anyway.

Face it, there a lots of factors when a woman breastfeeds that most studies do not take into consideration. Examples can be the mother's diet, toxins/air pollution, genetic malfuctions, etc ... Who knows, maybe women that breastfed while living in a commune setting would have different results than women who live in isolation?

The reason why researchers keep doing these studies over and over? Because they have yet to provide a fully conclusive, fail-safe study with completely sterile results, that can be duplicated completely. Which, with our current scientific standards, really is impossible. By example, this is how you can turn on the 12 o'clock news one week and hear that drinking Xozs of coffee will lower your blood pressure, but the next week that drinking the same Xozs of coffee will increase your risk of stroke, and the next week that drinking the same Xozs of coffee will increase brain functionality, etc ...

Chesnie - posted on 07/23/2010

Jenn-I do understand the benefits but I was taking meds for a chronic neck injury that I took my whole pregnancy and 4 years before that. If I had breastfed her, the medicine would have recirculated into her system and would have done more harm than good. Formula worked just great and I didnt feel bad or ashamed at all. My husband helped me with feedings, including nighttime and he got to be a big part of that. I couldnt control the situation and things worked out great! She never got sick once.

Claudia - posted on 07/23/2010

I understand what you are saying also. My daughter was BF because of her health issues. And when she was about 2-3 months old I went through postpartem depression and decided to put her on formula (she was put on a preemie formula by her doctor). I am a stay at home mom and she has no siblings, And she has hardly been sick at all, She has never had a diaper rash nothing. So I also think that it should be linked to more then just BF and not BF they should find a way to catagorize it.

Christina - posted on 07/23/2010

You know i don't believe that so much me and my friend had babies 2 weeks apart she bf for the first 6 months and i used formula they both attended the same daycare in the same class and her son got sicker more than my son he was out every 2 to 3 weeks bc he was sick but i would have to say that her son didn't get his first ear infection until he was a year old and my son had to have tubes at 7 months old bc he had so many ear infections so i don't know if i really believe that bf babies get sicker less

Jenn - posted on 07/23/2010

I do understand your argument but just because you can not see the difference in a breastfed baby does not mean that the difference is not there. Human babies and their immature systems are built to expect human milk just like any other animal expects the milk of their mother. Formula was never meant to become a replacement for breast milk. It was designed to feed orphans who would die if they did not have sustenance. But the history or intended use of artificial milk does not really matter as our culture has adopted it as a normal food. The benefits of breast feeding for baby and mom are STAGGERING! Later tonight I will post the studies that show the benefits (after I nurse my little one to bed). No study has ever found artificial milk to be as good as or better than breast milk.

I am a doula and student midwife and it really shocks me how many people are uneducated about the risks of formula and benefits (normalcy) of breastfeeding. I hope that makes sense : )

Chesnie - posted on 07/23/2010

awesome ladies, thanks for your responses. Of course it made much more sense when I talked about it out loud then it did when I typed it out. I guess, I just had to vent..Love u ladies!!

Jenna - posted on 07/23/2010

I have to agree with you Chesnie. My son was bottle fed and I haven't even ever had an issue that most women give me slack for when they find out I didn't give my son breast milk.

This is what I have to say: A study is a study. Anyone can do a study to prove the results that they want. Hardly any study out there is truly without fault; face it, we are human beings. There are no carbon copies to be able to justifiably compare, without any reasonable doubt. If, in the future, they can make exact perfect clones, all kept within sterile incubators and monitored for 25 years during the testing, then you may be able to say that the "study" is actually conclusive for all people.

As mothers we do what we feel is best for own children. Breastfed, bottlefed, whatever, our children ultimately take their cues from us and their suroundings.

Jennifer - posted on 07/23/2010

i typed up a whole response, then i read what Hannah had to say and it turned out to be almost word for word what i was going to say :) i even exclusively pump for my son because of latching issues! (and to answer your question, according to the AAP, children who receive BM from a bottle are still considered breastfed)

Good Day! - posted on 07/23/2010

The problem is, there will be an exception to the grouping you are suggesting also. I'm sure that study has been done too.

Hannah is right. In studies they are looking at the population in general, not just individual cases. In general, breastfed babies are healthier. But there will always be a sickly breastfed child somewhere. And there will always be a healthy formula fed child somewhere. One size does not fit all.

In my experience, my daughter never got sick or even a diaper rash until I stopped breastfeeding. I stopped at one year. Since I've stopped, she's been having diaper rash, she's gotten strep throat once, tonsilitis once, and hand, foot and mouth disease once.

I also stay at home with her, but she goes to our church nursery several times a week. So she wouldn't fit into any category you are suggesting.

With all that being said, I'm glad you have a healthy little girl. =)

Hannah - posted on 07/23/2010

I understand what you are saying, and it is an interesting idea that you pose.

I think that with any general "rule" or broad statistic, you are going to find exceptions to those rules. Your daughter is an exception. Most children who are breastfed are healthier due to the natural antibodies passed on to them through their mother's milk. These antibodies are NOT in any kind of formula. period. Additionally, there has been significant research showing the link between brain development and general health of babies to being touched. In general, babies who are breastfed, are touched more. Once again, we are talking generalities. Something for which there are exceptions.

I, too, have had problems with these statistics, because I exclusively pumped breastmilk for my son for a year, (he had latching issues and I was determined to provide him with breastmilk and I had a plentiful supply.) So was he breast fed? bottle fed? which group does he belong in?

I think the key is that each family needs to look at all of the information and choices avalaible to them and make decisions accordingly.