Creation - Dinosaurs & Dragons

Zimmersgirl - posted on 06/09/2009 ( 8 moms have responded )




Before we talk about this week's Creation class and my own research into the topic, I feel compelled to talk to you all for a moment. I'm not sure if this is for you personally, or for you to share, or even for me so I can do what I need to do, but I have learned if God lays something on my heart it is best to do it. This is one reason this week's lessons are late. I've wanted to pass the torch on this one, or at least make sure it was true. So, bear with me a few moments.

Paul told Timothy about a time coming when people will not endure sound doctrine, (II Timothy 4:2-5)

"Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things..."

In all things we are given the choice to believe or not. We have the choice to have faith or lack faith. We are often taught that to find that faith, to learn where we are headed, where things end, or even to get to the bottom of the TRUTH, we should go back to the beginning.

If you are a Christian, then this means you go back to the Word--Genesis.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John 1:1-5
The further I get into this study, the more I see how important Genesis is, not just for the formation of the earth and the purpose of the earth, but for our very souls and our very faith. Yet we have become so desensitized to things around us we have forgotten the pure simplicity and absolute authority of God's WHOLE Word.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17
There are times we have become so afraid to rock the boat or unsure in our own souls that we will often take what we are taught in the world and try to apply it to God's word instead of taking God's word and applying it to what we learn in the world.

Instead of questioning the theories or false doctrines presented we question the source of Truth, the Word.

Unfortunately, when we do that, we negate the absolute authority of the Word of God, OUR SWORD OF TRUTH! When we try to mesh the two things together, only one thing gets compromised. The WORD--our weapon of Truth. The falsehood manages to remain the same. We end up TAKING AWAY or ADDING TO the Word of God. We take away from our own faith in Him when we do it to. We are given many warnings to not do this.

"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2
"Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it." Deuteronomy 12:32
"Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6

I cannot stress enough how it is more important than ever to become grounded in Him, to really understand and know and continually pray for His guidance. We are His light and salt. We are required to know what He says, and also what He doesn't say. If you agree or not doesn't really matter--this is not about us, this is about Him.

This is not just about the Creation information. I feel this is more about listening to the Voice of Truth in ALL matters. I know there are a lot of things happening today, a lot of false lures out there ready to ensnare our hearts and minds with things that are not of God, though they may be disguised as such. There are false prophets and lies out there ready to ensnare us if we are not careful and so it is more important than ever to be vigilant, to study the Word and pray.

Then listen and believe to God. He is the TRUTH, THE WAY and THE LIFE. He will not lead you astray.


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Zimmersgirl - posted on 06/18/2009




Thanks Heather and Anne. And Anne, ramble away. I fear I do that a lot too, lol, so consider myself in good company with you, a sister rambler. :) And just so you know, my husband said almost the same thing when he was reading about the behemoth and leviathon. He said he couldn't understand that he never realized those were not animals we would know but looking at them now there is nothing else they could be but dinosaurs (or extinct animal similar).

My own theory on that is given in the Bible too. Again, this is just me talking here, but the Bible tells us that in the End Times knowledge will explode. I know this has to happen the world over, but as I get into this and talk to Christians who have a true hunger for God, I realize that more and more people's eyes are opened. God told us that there would be things revealed and I can't help but wonder that the church is getting back to basics and their hunger is stirring the knowledge of God and opening eyes and ears to His Truth..

(There, rambled again, lol)

Thank you for the encouragement and I have to say that I pray a lot before I post because like I try to live, it's about Him, not me. I will admit to preening a bit at your compliment, but in all honesty the glory is His. He blessed me with a passion for words and languages and so I need to use them for Him.

Very good point about "stories" and "characters". And very true.

I've still got to get the stuff about Leviathon and dragons up, as well as man (which we did this past Sunday) but am still putting my notes in order so it makes sense to everyone else. Also working on weekly theme for tomorrow which will go up first. Figure this one is more "fill-in" as time permits.

But also, I've been working on my first calling to purge and prepare. The Lord has really been pressing this on my heart with urgency lately. I just feel strongly that the Lord is getting ready to do something and I want to be ready, ya know?

So, bear with me. I'll add the rest as time and He allows. And I'm really hoping to combine creation of man with the fall of man to save time/space. We'll see where He leads. But I've been studying that and have some really interesting thoughts that I want to research...

For instance, I didn't really think about it until I was studying this week, but Adam and Eve were not kept away from the Tree of Life until after they left the garden---only the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They are two different trees. Interesting that before the Fall it didn't matter, but once death entered the world through the Curse of Man's Fall, then God set cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the Tree of Life (which the Bible says would have given Adam & Eve immortality had they eaten of it).

Just stuff like that and some other ponderables...


Anne - posted on 06/17/2009




Tam I was raised in the Catholic church back when only the Priest read the Bible, so needless to say I have had a lot of catching up on Bible History and just about every other area of Biblical knowledge. I do not mean any disrespect to any one that is Catholic. Both of my parents remained Catholic and I know they are in Heaven because I had the Privilege and Blessing of leading them both to the Lord.
I have been in many Bible studies over the years. But I must tell you God has given you a wonderful gift of teaching. Thank you for being willing to share your gift.
When I was reading your post on Genesis I could not help but remember when our daughters were in Bible Quizzing and did the book of Genesis. So much was recorded in that book and yet we some times relate to it as "BIBLE STORIES and the people in the BIBLE as CHARACTERS this has always bothered me. Mickey Mouse is a character,Noah Abraham Isaac and Jacob are the fathers of our faith.

When I was reading the verses on the Behemoth all through them it was as if God was making a point of proving that evaluation could not be true. I know now I am just rambling but I guess I do that best.

Zimmersgirl - posted on 06/09/2009




Behemoth...The very word brings to mind a HUGE monstrous thing. In fact, it means "giant, kingly beast."

So, what exactly is the behemoth? For my studies, I believe they were a dinosaur, most specifically, a sauropod (typically long-necked), especially as these are the largest dinos science has discovered. You'll remember how we discussed that Job is believed to be the oldest book in the Bible. In this book, God talks to Job and during one conversation He uses His creation to show His love. He begins speaking of the smallest creatures, steadily working His way up the animal kingdom until He reaches His grandest and largest creation...the Behemoth.

Job 40 (KJV)

15Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. 19He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. 20Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. 21He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. 22The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. 23Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. 24He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

Now, your Bible or a Bible commentary might have some interpretation on what a Behemoth is. For example, in some there might be a footnote describing "something like an elephant or hippo" or have "trunk" for the word tail.

It should be noted right now that there are other Hebrew words for animals like hippos and elephants. If He meant hippo or elephant why didn't He use those words instead? After all, He made them, He would know what's what. I have to believe He didn't use those words because He wasn't describing them.

But let's look at the description itself and see if it can be applied to Dino, Hippo or Elephant.

Verse 15...

First, we know that this was a creature that Job was familiar with and that it was created with man. "Behold now the behemoth, which I made with thee". God would not have asked Job to think of, look at the creature unless it were alive and there and known to him. And He clearly states that this creature was made with man, on the sixth day. So we are thinking of a land beast.

We also see that it was a vegetarian (eateth grass as an ox). Some "experts" (mostly evolutionists) have used this text to say that a behemoth cannot possibly be a dinosaur because the sauropods did not have molars to chew cud like a cow or ox. Yet, I personally believe after prayer and study that they've taken the text out of context, that it means this creature was a vegetarian like an ox. What he eats, not how he eats. So, could be all three. Let's continue...

Verse 16

"Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly." - - - Dinosaurs are reptilian in nature, meaning they do not have a navel since they were hatched and had no need of an umbilical cord. Some have used this as an argument that Behemoth could not possibly be a dinosaur. William Wilson says that the original Hebrew word used is not translated "navel" but rather part of the stomach (Page 285 of "Wilson's Old Testament Word Studies") and as such also translates it as the muscles in the region of the belly. The word used was "mothen" which is the waist or small of the back.

While we are here, I want to point out something unique to the sauropod dinosaurs--their strength is literally found in their loins. Unlike other creatures, these particular dinos had very large bony structures located under their hip area to anchor their massive muscles. From that came their source of power to move, to walk, to do anything.

Based on this verse alone, I cannot believe it would be an elephant for most of their strength is located in their necks, heads and tusks--their most vulnerable spot being in their bellies. And a hippos strongest part is in their heads. Yet our God specifically does not mention these parts when describing strength of the behemoth. And He would know, He made all creatures.

Verse 17

He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together

What creature, past or present had a tail like a cedar? Cedars were some of the largest, thickest trees in ancient history and even today if you go to the Middle East you'll see some magnificent specimens. Some have said that they believe it meant that like an elephant's tail it's straight before "branching off", but I cannot believe this. If you look at the context of this section, God is going to great descriptive lengths to share the strength and majesty of this animal. If the tail were as little as as an elephant's or hippo's why bother adding it to these attributes? It doesn't fit the context! Animals that did have thick tails though were dinos. In fact, the sauropod had one of the longest, thickest tails around. It would take a lot to sway a giant cedar, just as it would take a lot to swap the tail of one of these large creatures.

According to translators of ancient Hebrew, the word "pachad" (for stones) is used to mean fear or awe. In fact, recently that term was used in a Hebrew-language song and meant "fear". Some say the meaning is plates, others say bones/thighs and yet others have other interpretations. Honestly, I just think that it all means that his muscles are bound together.

Verse 18

His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

The word "bones" is translated from "etsem", which means the body, substance. "Strong pieces" is translated from "aqhiyq", which means, containing. The word "aqhiyq" has a play on a riverbed or valley of a stream, in the sense that the riverbed is strong to hold the river. The body of this creature is a strong as brass, and would need to be if it were as big as a dinosaur. The second time "bones" is used it is "gerem", which is the skeleton. The skeletal structure of this large beast is as strong as bars of iron. Only a very large animal would need these strong bones to support its sheer bulk.

Verse 19

Chief is translated from the word reshiyth which means, first in rank, time, or order.  Ways is translated from derek, which is a road as trodden, a course of life.10  The behemoth was the largest and strongest of all land animals.


First off, a hippo is outranked in size and stature by the rhino, yet this creature is not even in contention for behemoth.

Verse 19 -

He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. No man can tame it. Cannot be said of elephants, proven by circus elephants, etc. It says that they cannot be approached with a sword (hunted), yet hippos and elephants have been hunted since ancient times. In fact, Egyptians used to have festivals known as "Harpooning the Hippopotamus."

So, was there any creature who could not be tamed or hunted as such? Some of the largest (chief, again) creatures of the world--dinosaurs--would have not been able to be tamed or hunted by man.

Verse 20

Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

Does not fit with hippo habitat, near rivers most of their lives.

Verse 21 & 22

Elephant retreats to deep forests in heat of day, hippos immerse in water during heat of day. The Behemoth stayed under the trees Description of behemoth more of a "swamp" animal like a dinosaur or alligator, but alligators are not "chief" in the ways of animals.

Verse 23 talks about "hasteth not". "hasteth" is derived from "chaphaz" which means to start up suddenly. Basically this verse talks about no matter how the river Jordan rages, this animal has the wherewithal to stand firm. He doesn't rush away. A smaller animal could not stand still in middle of a raging river. Sheer bulk of the behemoth keeps it in place. Also, the bulk and size is indicated in the fact that behemoth could drink up a river. An elephant can hold a few gallons of water in their trunks but I cannot see that being a "river".

Verse 24 talks about his nose pierces through snares and his eyes taketh in the Jordan. There have been two schools of thought on this verse, yet both point to a creature other than an elephant and only one could point to a hippo, which we've already discounted. One thought is that this verse means behemoth could hide in the waters to avoid detection, with only his eyes and his nose above the waters. A hippo does that. It should also be noted that sauropods had their noses on top of their heads, near their eyes. They were also believed to have been able to submerge their entire bodies under water, leaving only their noses and eyes above the surface. Another thought is that he can view the river safe from predators because of his size and that he can not be taken by snares (traps). Most snares are rings of rope, reeds, etc. that "ensnared" an animal about the head. A sauropod was tall enough and had a small enough head that it could evade a lot of snares. Imagine if someone were bold enough to actually ensnare a dinosaur, they would be taken on the ride of their life before they finally let go out of sheer will to live. Yet, we know that hippos and elephants have been taken by snares and traps.

While the fossil evidence and current animal kingdom seems to point to the fact that behemoth was not an elephant or hippo (based on the detailed description, provided by God Himself), I leave it to you to pray and seek God for an answer. I believe, however, that if it wasn't a dinosaur, then it was another creature, alive in the time of Job, yet extinct today.

Zimmersgirl - posted on 06/09/2009




So, this week in class we talked about dinosaurs and dragons. It can be a touchy subject. That said, let me tell you that I'm going to approach this lesson with the thoughts of a "young earth" perspective because after my own study and prayer, I feel this is the most Biblical perspective. Whenever possible, I studied the Hebrew words involved and feel this is the most accurate. I was not there, though, and hope this is something we learn when we get to Heaven. Anyway, if you believe in Gap Theory or another perspective, please do not be offended. I only want to do what I truly believe is for His glory, not ours.

We began the class with the fact that dinosaurs did exist. We have fossilized evidence of their existence. Both evolutionists and Creationists have the same historical and fossil record evidence to work with.

The difference in perspective comes from personal beliefs. As Christians, we believe the Word of God and that He created the universe and our world (including the dinosaurs) as He tells us. A large majority of evolutionists are atheist and therefore do not want God in the equation at all. Therefore, they look for an explanation for our existence that does not include Him.

Let's take a few moments and look at the differences:

Evolutionist: Believe universe (and our planet) came from Big Bang and that all life on earth sprang from a single, single-celled organism. There is no recorded observational account of this theory.

Creationist: Believes the Genesis account and that God created each and every life form on earth. The Bible is a recorded account, complete with lineage.


Evolutionist: Believes dinosaurs evolved around 235 million years ago (note, this date changes often), BEFORE man.

Creationist: Believes dinosaurs were created on the sixth day, same as man. Also, there is scientific evidence as man and dino fossils were discovered in same rock strata layers--not possible if lived millions of years apart. Based on the Hebrew word used for "day" in Genesis 1, it means the same as it does today, so based on the lineage of the Bible and the "days", dinos were created about six or seven thousand years ago.

NOTE: If you are a Christian, you almost cannot believe that dinosaurs died out before man came because the Bible specifically says that death did not enter the world until Adam sinned and was removed from the garden. Just something to think about. (Romans 5:12)


Evolutionist: Believes reptiles (dinosaurs) evolved from amphibians. (They cannot find "transitional" fossils, however, to show the stages between amphibian and dinosaur.)

Creationist: Believes God created each creature, not that they evolved from another. (Fossil records agree.)


Evolutionist: Believes dinosaurs ruled the earth.

Creationist: Believes God gave Adam (man) authority (dominion) over the earth.


Evolutionist: Has many theories why dinosaurs died off, including huge asteroid hitting earth, gasses clouds suffocating them, ice ages, etc.

Creationist: Believes in the account of the Great Flood which lines up with the fossil record. A world-wide flood of such proportions would have kills millions instantly, those that were left would have diminished numbers (endangered), and and would have diminished habitats and food sources. Also, less oxygen in the air could have contributed.


BUT MY BIBLE DOESN'T MENTION say. Did they really exist?

As mentioned above, we know they existed by the fossils found the world-over. In fact, one thing most never take into consideration is that the average size of a dinosaur was only that of a sheep or small pony (based on the found fossilized skeletal remains). Even Michael Crichton, an author known for research, mentions this in his fictional book The Lost World.

But yes, there were also the giants. And one reason could be because they lived longer. A reptile will continue to grow as long as it lives. We know from Bible that men lived a lot longer back then, so why wouldn't the animals and dinosaurs that lived with them. Before the flood men were vegetarians. They wouldn't need the meat to eat, so no hunting of dinosaurs, one less threat to extinction then. Perhaps some were large breeds like our hippos or dinos are, so if they start large, imagine how much bigger they could get if they lived hundreds of years.

Now that you might know why they lived with man, let's see why your Bible doesn't mention "dinosaurs" specifically.

The word "dinosaur" was created in 1841 by Sir Richard Owen. He was the first superintendent of the British Museum. The word means terrible or tyrannical lizzard. It should be noted that this word was coined before Charles Darwin wrote his Origin of the Species (I believe that was 1859, but can double check). That said, both men were alive at the same time. Richard Owen was a staunch anti-darwinist.

Now, the King James version of the Bible was written in 1611 (though I believe another edition was done in 1797). As you can see, this was a minimum of fifty years before the word dinosaur was created. This is why you do not see the word dinosaur in the Bible.

But my Bible is a version written after that, you say. Well, in deference to the old earth/new earth argument or pressure from indoctrination, most printers have opted to leave this open to interpretation or even just reuse the words of the KJV text here. For example, the NIV Archeological Bible leaves this open for interpretation. These versions have also changed "dragon" to other words, including jackal (NIV). I can't say why or cannot say how they came to this conclusion, but do say that given the descriptions of dragons world over, I'm at a loss as to why they substituted "jackal", when some people don't even know what they are. The two creatures are nothing alike in my mind. So, I have to question, if God meant jackal, why didn't He use a word similar to that creature (wolves, jackal, etc.). He is God and He made the creature so He would know what to call them. So I have to rely on the Bible and Hebrew text, which means dragon in our language, not jackal.

There are three creatures in the Bible that men have trouble giving definition to. They are BEHEMOTH, LEVIATHON and DRAGON.

We'll talk about each of these in a bit, but for now, I want to let you know that in the original text, the same word was used for whales and dragons. Again, here we know whales are much larger than jackals, so again, not sure how people came to that conclusion in some modern interpretations. But I digress.

But before we get to them, I want to touch briefly on some fossil information. To form a fossil, it takes a "rare" event because most dead things decompose or are eaten before they can fossilize. Fossil formation requires a sudden burial to prevent oxygen from reaching the body to decompose it. To find the number of fossils we do would require an world-wide catastrophe. The same scientists who believe that Mars once had water and a massive flood of their own have trouble accepting the Biblical account of our Great Flood or that it could have caused the dinosaurs.

Yet take a look at some fossil facts:

- appx. 95% of all fossils are marine organisms (coral, shellfish, etc.)

- appx. 95% of the remaining 5% are algae and plants

- appx. 95% of the remaining .25% are invertebrates, including insects

- The remaining .0125% are vertebrates, yet still mostly fish.

YES scientists have found "dinos" on land and that is the majority of fossils you hear about. That said, 95% of land vertebrates fossils found consist of one bone or less).

If a flood killed a lot of creatures, those on land would have been washed away, in the raging waters. If the flood caused a massive amount of fossils, it stands that most of those fossils would be water-related.

And here is something recent for you...Scientists from the University of Montana unearthed T-rex bones in 1990 (research complete 1997). The amazing thing is these bones were NOT fully fossilized. Parts contained blood cells and hemoglobin. If this creature had lived millions of years ago, those parts would have fossilized or disintegrated.

In 1987 (North Slope, Alaska) someone found UNFOSSILIZED bones of a duck-billed dinosaur. If it were a million or years old the skeleton should have disintegrated as oxygen decomposed it and it did not have mineralization of the earth to protect it.

I have more to share with you and will do so after we study some of the amazing creatures mentioned in the Bible.

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