Abortion

Nellie - posted on 10/12/2010 ( 160 moms have responded )

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I personally would never be able to get an abortion, no matter what the situation but t the same time, I was pro choice for everyone else. UNTIL I watched two videos. Watch these two videos and answer, are you pro-choice or pro-life?

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Kimberly - posted on 10/12/2010

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Wow. I'm not even going to watch. I'm pro-choice not pro-abortion. Dana, I agree...full on propaganda.

"The point of the videos is after watching them I came to the personal conclusion that fetuses are human beings that have feelings and thought that perhaps other people might come to the same conclusion after watching them. The pont of the videos is that they showed me a different percpective."

Uh, and you can keep that- to yourself- as in PERSONAL OPINION. Again, no one wants a pro-lifer shoveling any of this down our throats. Go watch disturbing videos alone. Do you need to watch some child porn too while you're at it to come to the realization that you oppose that as well? Put up some dead kittens too and let's talk animal cruelty. Snap out of it lady.

Kate CP - posted on 10/12/2010

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"Just clearing up, as of now YES Im pro life. Because of the videos which changed my mind, which is why I posted them. The baby screaming as it`s being killed made me rethink my views."

So the propaganda footage worked for you? In the 40s the US government contracted Disney to make several anti-axis propaganda films to get more support for the war. The one depicted here blames the high income tax rates of the times on Hitler. Just because you see it in a video doesn't make it true.

Isobel - posted on 10/12/2010

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I wonder if I looked long enough I could find a REALLY graphic clip of a girl committing suicide because she couldn't get an abortion...I wonder if that would turn heads in the other direction...propaganda bugs me.



and you are looking at partial birth abortions...which is what... 0.01% of all abortions (and that ONLY happens in cases of SEVERE health problems and abnormalities that are incompatible with life).



Even I have said that I believe that a fetus that can live without it's mother should be allowed to...and we all know that I'm a monster...so there.

Kate CP - posted on 10/12/2010

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You can change your mind all you want. But to base an opinion or a belief on propaganda is a little naive.

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[deleted account]

I didn't want a specific number of weeks, I just wondered really as that is what your comment suggested. Thanks for clarifying your stance for me :-)

Rosie - posted on 10/16/2010

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yes toni, after a child can live on it's own (no baby has ever survived being born earlier than 21 weeks 6 days) i feel abortion without medical reason is wrong. however i don't believe abortion happens after that time for reasons other than medical ones, so that point is moot really. if you want me to put a specific number of weeks, i'd have to say 24 weeks. 24 weeks is when most physicians define viability.

[deleted account]

Yeah they was trying to reduce the age to 22 and 20 weeks although the propositions for those changes were dismissed.

[deleted account]

Ah right...well maybe I've got totally confused and it was 24 weeks we were taught and that they were trying to lower that as many babies survive from a little at 21 weeks...probably was lol as I was born in 1990 lol =]

In response to your question - yes I do feel late-term abortions are wrong because by that point the foetus/baby would be able to live alone outside the womb.

[deleted account]

Jennifer, it was 28 weeks until 1990, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 lowered the upper limit for most abortions from 28 weeks to 24 weeks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in...

I can't see your name (it's not showing me for some reason) thank-you for answering my question, although addressed to Kati anyone can answer it, I only addressed Katoi because she made the point.

[deleted account]

Toni thanks for the info. I know when I was at school 4 years ago that at that point it was 28 weeks and that they were fighting to change it to 24 weeks but it obviously did get changed lol! I didn't know they could be performed at anytime if there was a specific reason though. I think in the case of being severely handicapped that should always be done prior to the 24 weeks as they would find out whether the baby had something wrong with them at the 20 week scan. But that's just my opinion =]

April - posted on 10/16/2010

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i'm pro choice but would never have an abortion and would never suggest one to anyone. i am gonna answer your question you've meant for Kati here, Toni. I feel that late term abortions are wrong because of that potential. Who's to say that the child born to heroin addicts isn't going to have a great life? You can't just say "look at the parents, life is gonna suck" or "Oh what a horrible disease, life is gonna suck". You cannot estimate what kind of spirit and resilience the child is going to have.

Also, I get how some of you feel about a cluster of cells...and at 21 weeks or beyond....it's still a bunch of cells....just more of them!! You and I are a cluster of cells. That's why I won't ever get an abortion. I loved my little boy from the tiniest cluster. He was MY little cluster of cells.

[deleted account]

I've got a question Kati, does that mean that you feel late term abortions after 20 weeks are wrong because there's a potential the baby may survive from 21 weeks?

[deleted account]

I agree that you can not understand what a person goes through in order to do what they do. I try not to judge, I just find it hard in cases like abortion. I would never judge someone for getting one in a rape case or incest, etc, because I can not imagine how that would feel. However, most of my opinions are based on people I know. One acquaintance has had a still born, birthed a healthy boy and then got an abortion because she didn't know if her and the guy would be staying together. Stupid reason. Another acquaintance got 6, mark that, 6 abortions in high school alone. Did she not know how to use birth control? So, I'll admit that my leanings are a little biased on account of people I know so I will agree that I don't know everyone and will leave the choice up to them. It doesn't mean I have to like it or that I have to have any respect for their reasons to do it.

Rosie - posted on 10/16/2010

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yes I was devestated at my 2 miscarriages. i envisioned my life with my children, and grew to love the baby inside of me. personally to ME every fetus is a child, but medically speaking it is not. however, this is how i CHOOSE to react to a pregnancy. not everyone is like me. not everyone is overfilled with joy at the thought of a child growing inside of them. not everybody wants to carry their rapists child, etc. i have no right to tell another person how to feel, or act or behave just because i can't fathom their personal feelings. so whether i feel it's a child or not isn't really important becasue the next woman may not. that's what choice is all about. opening your mind and realizing that not everybody thinks like you. and until a fetus can survive without it's mother at 20 weeks i will support her right to do with her body as she deems fit.

[deleted account]

But I didn't say I mourned the fertilized eggs that didn't attach. I said I grew attached to my baby as soon as I knew about it and that I feel it's a baby when it's heart starts working. That means it's alive.

No, I'm not going to stand outside of abortion clinics and protest because I don't think that sends the right message, but I do think there should be a legitimate reason behind it. I hold little respect for someone who says, "whoops, I didn't think I would get pregnant from having sex. Better get rid of it." Granted, not everyone cares about who I respect and who I don't, just merely stating my feelings on the matter.

Sharon - posted on 10/15/2010

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Loss of a fetus that I planned for is something to be mourned for the potential. Seriously? Do you have any idea how many fertilised eggs spontaneously abort before you get a positive pregnancy test? Are you weeping & wailing and besieging the doctors begging "WHY WHY WHY?" I don't see anyone raising hell about that.

I'm not that attached to a cluster of cells, I am attached to the idea of baby and losing that posibility saddens the hell out of me. But I'm a realist and a pragmatist in the end.

Not every child conceived can be born for so many reasons. Not everyone should give birth. Not every pregnancy is wanted and its none of anyone elses damned business why an abortion happens.

Your body, your life. Keep your noses out of someone elses.

[deleted account]

I try not to judge others for their choices. I do find it hard in the case of abortions, though. I'm okay with it for medically necessary reasons, but not as birth control.

I'm sorry, but here I'm curious: To those that said the baby isn't a baby until it can survive outside of the womb, I wonder if you feel the same with regards to a WANTED baby that was miscarried. What if you went into early labour and your baby died because it was too soon? Is that not your child? Would you shrug it off and say, "time to try again", or would you be devastated? Or is it different because you wanted one baby and didn't want another? Just something that has bugged me for a while, I hope I haven't offended anyone with my straightforward questions. I know they sound critical, and pretty well are, but I don't really have anyone else to be so blatant about it with, lol. For the record, a baby has a heartbeat at five weeks, by that time I am already attached to the baby growing within me.

Sharon - posted on 10/15/2010

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You cannot be 100% prolife if you advocate the death of a mother versus the life of her child and in many of those cases the two are linked and the child will die anyway.

Rosie - posted on 10/15/2010

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hard to think of someone as 100% pro-life when they'd let the mother DIE (hence, she doesn't have life) to save the child.

Charlene - posted on 10/15/2010

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Another thing with this video is that this woman is leaving out WHY the abortions are being preformed. I am willing to bet money that the baby with D.S. had a multitude of other problems that she left out.
I'm also willing to bet that you would have an incredibly hard time finding a doctor that will preform a late-term abortion for social reasons. It would have to be pretty clear that either the mother's life would be in danger OR the baby would be born with a disorder that would make it impossible to survive after birth anyway.

[deleted account]

Jennifer, in the UK abortions are legal up to 24 weeks not 28 weeks, although if an abortion is necessary to save mums life, OR would prevent serious permanent harm to mums mental or physical health OR there is a high risk that the baby would be seriously handicapped, an abortion can be performed at ANY stage of pregnancy. The NHS website details when abortions are performed and what happens, as well as demonstrating statistics for the UK, 90% of all abortions in the UK are performed BEFORE 13 weeks and 73% are performed BEFORE 10 weeks, 98% are performed BEFORE 20 weeks meaning that 2% of abortions performed in the UK are AFTER 20 weeks.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pa...

[deleted account]

Kati, thanks for clearing that up...I was kinda confused like, especially since I didn't know this method of abortion existed, but then again I suppose if these complications arrive the baby has to be delivered as would be the case if the baby had miscarried at such a late stage.

Rosie - posted on 10/14/2010

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@ jennifer, i have to say that laura is completely right about this video being shiite. it's complete propoganda to make you think things happen for no reason when there are perfectly acceptable reasons. the UK has a slightly higher percentage of abortions performed past 20 weeks than the united states. .08% for the us, and 1% for the UK. late term abortions are performed when the baby has a condition that is not compatable with life, or the mothers life is at risk. they don't just go killing viable fetus's willy nilly. most states have very specific laws regarding late term abortions.

Stifler's - posted on 10/14/2010

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I doubt that they'd not use life saving measures on babies under a certain cut off, and every nurse knows that no one is to die alone. Regardless.

And this thread is clearly about abortion in general and how someone changed their mind on being pro-choice for other people after seeing a video which was actually propaganda.

Becky - posted on 10/14/2010

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Well, is she lying in the video, because she said the baby had Down's, which is not incompatible with life. It's not even incompatible with a happy, fulfilling life. I can see not performing any life-saving measures on a severely disabled baby who would not live anyways. But had this baby been a few weeks older, he most likely could have survived (unless he had a severe heart defect or something as well, which of course, she didn't say.) So, I mean, I guess it's a moot point, but had been viable and his only disability was Down's Syndrome, then yes, I think efforts should have been made to save his life.
And there are families out there who would take a Down's baby. I've done homestudies on them! It's far easier to raise a child with Down's syndrome than a child with Fetal alcohol syndrome or severe attachment disorder!

Lesley - posted on 10/14/2010

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I am Pro-Choice... I do think that abortions should be done before the 2nd trimester. None for myself but there are woman out there that have been raped and young teens that don't want to have them... I am not saying to use it as birth control.... But could you imagine what Department Of Children and Families would look like if abortions weren't available???

Isobel - posted on 10/14/2010

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Well...since that video is shite...don't lose any sleep over it. The deal is this...it is very sad that some children are born into the world to die almost immediately. If you want to spend $100 000 trying to save them, I suppose that's your prerogative, personally, I think trying to save ANYBODY that is dying is more painful than accepting the inevitable truth.

Yes, when I am 90, and all my organs are failing, I will have a do not resuscitate order.

I highly doubt that nurses routinely leave babies to die by themselves in a dirty room...even the woman in this video says that the nurses usually hold these babies till they die but none were available so she did it herself....

again, very sad that some children are born to die but spending tons of time, energy, and yes money isn't going to stop it from happening. Accepting the inevitable is something we all need to make peace with.

[deleted account]

I didn't even know this type of abortion existed! Unless it isn't used here in the UK, I'm not sure. I've always said I only agree with abortions in very exceptional circumstances such as rape or danger to the mother/babies lives. Here in the UK an abortion can be performed up to 28 weeks, but they are trying to lower it to 24 weeks. I feel totally and utterly disgusted the way these babies are treated.

[deleted account]

Laura? I think I misread what you were saying. I was not saying to put the babies who result from failed abortions up for adoption, I was saying put the baby up for adoption instead of aborting it.

When is it considered "late term" abortion? In the US, less than 2% of abortions are performed more than 21 weeks into gestation, that is a tiny amount. I do understand that for medical reasons, but then, we know that 2% of abortions are performed on women over 40 for medical reasons so it stands to reason that these two categories are encompassing the same women. I agree that in medical emergencies that abortion is a good option, I just do not agree that it should be used for birth control or social reasons.

[deleted account]

Ahh, I didn't realize we were talking only about late term abortions, I thought we were talking about abortions in general. Encouraging women to give unwanted babies up directly after birth would increase the number of "HEALTHY, PERFECT, pretty babies" and decrease the number of abused babies in the system. It could also decrease the number of abortions in the long run and shorten the adoption wait for newborns.

I wish that adoptive parents were all equipped mentally and emotionally to deal with these babies who were removed from the home too late, but the fact of the matter is that they are not prepared to deal with those issues, and the child is often better off in care than with an unprepared adoptive parent. Just because they are not willing to adopt a damaged child, does not make them bad people, it just shows that they know what they can handle and what would be too much for them.

Isobel - posted on 10/14/2010

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you are correct, there simply are not enough HEALTHY, PERFECT, pretty babies out there for adoption...stopping late term adoptions (which is what this thread was supposed to be about) wouldn't change that, since they only happen when there is a severe health problem or malformation incompatible with life.

[deleted account]

Emma makes a good point. The waiting list to adopt a newborn in the US is years long. The problem is that people who have no business having children are having them, then abusing them, THEN turning them over to the system to be adopted. These children are often violent and have life long emotional problems due to attachment disorders--not many people are prepared to deal with those issues and cannot adopt children in those situations. There are literally tons of places a girl can go to get counseling on abortion, but very few places to get help with counseling through a pregnancy that ends in adoption. The problem is not that we have too many children being given up for adoption, the problem is that they are being given up too late for adoption.



Also, it is not that expensive to adopt domestically in the US, usually the cost is well under the price of a new car.

Ez - posted on 10/13/2010

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As far as I know, cut-off for viability in most hospitals is 23 weeks. I have heard of some 22- weekers, but never anything less.

Jodi - posted on 10/13/2010

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I wonder if they were doing the countr from LMP or from actual conception. Because it is perfectly feasible that a baby born at 22 weeks is actually only 20 weeks because of actual conception date.....

Stifler's - posted on 10/13/2010

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Today I went shopping and someone was telling me that their daughters friend was in Townesville and she'd had a baby at 20 weeks and it lived.

[deleted account]

The only thing I have to add is that my stepmom was a nurse in the NICU like 15-20 years ago and they had a 20 weeker that survived. I questioned her a ton on that when she told me cuz I had never heard of anyone younger than 24 weeks surviving.

[deleted account]

Another thing not ALL people who want to adopt are eligible, just because someone wants to adopt does not mean they will make a good parent.

[deleted account]

But Emma what about the CHILDREN? Yes most people want to adopt a baby BUT the majority of children in the adoption process are CHILDREN not babies. The children are the babies who for whatever reason (disability for example) were not adopted OR the children who were removed from their parents as children due to abuse/ neglect OR were children when their moms decided they could not cope or did not want them; most mums try for at least a year before deciding that they cannot cope, it is very rare for a mom to go through pregnancy knowing that at the end adoption was the solution. The system is already overflowing and the children in it our suffering, so suggesting that this problem is added to is not realistic.



Also babies are toddlers (if they are adopted before 11 months that is early) by the time they are adopted, if they have been removed from their parents the parents have the right to appeal the decision, and if the mom gives the baby up there is a cooling off period before the baby can be adopted. Then there's the actual adoption process, in the UK the social workers assess the baby/ child, then they assess the people whom they have on the list to adopt to see if they match up, when they find a family that potentially is a match they have a couple of meetings, and a sort of trial run before the adoption papers are signed. This process can take months but it is often reduced if people adopt sibling groups or older children or children with disabilities (the groups very few prefer).



It is also easy to suggest a pregnant woman give her baby up for adoption but many women could NOT do that because by carrying and birthing the baby they have developed a bond, and it is not always that the baby is not wanted but that the woman feels she is not able to look after the baby but if she continued the pregnancy she could not give it away.

Heather - posted on 10/13/2010

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I am pro-choice up until the beginning of the 2nd trimester. If you can't do it before that then give the baby up for adoption. There are so many people desperate to have a baby and they'd be more than happy to take him/her.

Stifler's - posted on 10/13/2010

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Babies aren't unwanted though, so many people apply for the adoption process and there's not enough babies.

[deleted account]

Tah my hubby feels the same, he would NEVER forgive me if I even considered an abortion, luckily we're on the same page and I would NEVER consider an abortion let alone have one, if I get pregnant again it will be a major blessing, I believe that everything happens for a reason.

On to the OP, I do not need to watch those videos to know how I feel about abortion, although there are grey areas such as rape and instances where the mom will die if the pregnancy continues. I am 100% against mums having abortions for the social reasons that really makes me angry. I never really know how to define myself on this topic, however from reading the posts here I would say then maybe I am pro-choice with severe leanings to the pro-life agenda (as I have exceptions), the thought of abortion always makes me feel sick though.

Becky - posted on 10/13/2010

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There are actually people who have survived late-term abortions and were rescued by the nurses and given medical care and adopted. There was a video going around among my facebook friends a week or so ago of such a person. She had a pretty amazing story. I thought of posting it here, but it was pretty heavy on the "god-talk" and I wasn't sure why I'd post it. I can find it if anyone's interested though.
Anyways, Hmmm. I was going to say that if a baby is over 24 weeks gestation and is born alive, efforts should be made to save his/her life. But, I know that a lot of micro-preemies who survive have lifelong multiple health issues, and to add not being wanted and possibly spending ones life in foster care on top of that. Ish. That's a tough call! However, although I don't think abortions should be done after the point of viability anyways, if say, a 30 week fetus, who most likely would have survived with minimal long-term health problems if born at that point, survives an abortion, I think efforts should be made to save that baby's life and place it with an adoptive family. The question is where to draw the line in terms of how far along gestationally you would do that though.
If it is not a situation where the baby's life could be possibly be saved, I think the baby should be made comfortable and loved until it passes. The poor baby has been through horrendous trauma is now aware of the pain and suffering it is in. I think it deserves to be loved for the short time it's here on earth. Maybe that's just my soft heart speaking! Maybe some of these pro-lifers who are picketing abortion clinics could volunteer to cuddle these babies while they die.
The idea of a baby being so unwanted that it is left to suffer and die alone in the laundry room or wherever, is really quite heartbreaking to me! :(

Stifler's - posted on 10/13/2010

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No nurse would leave a baby to die alone. Propaganda. I still don't want to watch the video.

September - posted on 10/13/2010

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I could not watch the videos..Far too depressing for me. I'm pro-choice by the way but also wanted to mention that I have a girlfriend that had twin girls born at 21 weeks that survived. :) It can happen.

Tah - posted on 10/13/2010

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when i was pregnant with my son, after i told my father he had a royal fit...to be expected..one thing he said was that some people pay for their sins with the blood of their children...i may have left something out, but basically he was saying that i wasn't getting an abortion. I already knew that, if i was we wouldn't have been having that talk, we would have been talking car shopping instead. Now i have mixed feelings about it. i can't be hypocritical and say that i am pro-life, when i haven't always acted in that respect, but the second video did make me think...it was probably the wording and just the seeing what happens. I will say that i am against repeated abortions in the place of birth control. I guess it's easy if you don't really consider it a life. I do, but even for those that don't believe as i do, i think they would agree that is horrible not to mention heck on your body. My husband is quite adamant, abortion is murder and if i ever got one with one of his kids i can drive right past the house....lol

[deleted account]

The first one does bring up a good question. For those of you who are pro-choice, what do you propose be done with aborted babies who are born alive. They cannot survive for any real amount of time, but they are, in fact, alive for the moment. If they were a full term baby, the hospital would have to do everything possible to save their lives, but in this case, what should they do?
Should they be killed in a humane manner or be kept comfortable until they die? Who would pay for this? Should the additional cost of euthanasia be added to the bill for the abortion? Or do you feel like the current practice of simply discarding the baby while it is still alive is alright since no one wanted it anyway and it is not considered a real baby unless it can survive on it's own?

Sorry, I know tons of questions.......btw, I am on the fence on abortion, I do not feel strongly one way or the other, so all input is welcome to help me decide :)

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