Absolute Outrage

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Isobel - posted on 03/26/2012

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yeah, who cares that vigilantes are roaming around shooting black kids with skittles legally? There has to be more interesting news by now.

Isobel - posted on 03/22/2012

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I know prosecuting him may be difficult but FFS, arrest him...then let the law prove for itself how shitty it is instead of people wondering how the hell he's still wandering around carrying a gun

[deleted account]

Dana -- there is a lot of evidence that the police reached the conclusion they wanted to reach. They were coaching witnesses at the scene, ignored the statements of the boy's girlfriend (who he was on the phone with when he was shot), and didn't even test the guy for drugs. The shooter followed this kid for blocks and got out of the car and chased him, even though there was no real indication the kid did anything other than go walking in the rain. Plus, the fact that the shooter referenced to the kid as a "f@!#ing coon" on the 911 tapes shows me that the only thing this kid did wrong was go walking while black.

Johnny - posted on 03/26/2012

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Christina, that is something special in the lacking compassion department. I would suspect if your innocent child's life was taken by someone by someone in such a scenario, you would not rest until they were arrested. Ever heard of empathy? Not to mention the precedent allowing things like this to go on will set for our future.

[deleted account]

Dana: The police generally don't make determinations about self defense -- they are supposed to collect evidence and give it to the prosecutors and arrest people based on probable cause. There was ample probable cause to make an arrest here. It's the defendant's job to assert the DEFENSE of self-defense. So, yes, I think there was some potential racism on the part of the cops. How do you otherwise explain their refusal to act?



The 911 tapes are available online --- the word "punk" doesn't sound anything like coon. I thought the phrase was pretty unmistakable when I listened to it.



Here is the tape (at 1:50 minutes into the video):



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNI5CA5ji...



It's unmistakable.



This man was stalking this boy and shot and killed him. There is no excuse for not arresting him.

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Karla - posted on 03/27/2012

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This report stresses why this particular incident is so very important. This is tragic and somehow the law is skewed in a way that protects killers.

Karla - posted on 03/27/2012

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Along the lines of the OP, here is a conversation that I thought some of you might be interested in hearing. The race and laws and safety issue is something that has been debated on CoM before, and I think these people touch on many of the points we have discussed in the past.

Stifler's - posted on 03/26/2012

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It's not just this one kid Christina it's all the other people who will be killed and their killer get away with it because of stupid reasons.

Isobel - posted on 03/26/2012

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You've seen worse in America than a grown man stalking and killing a child carrying candy that never EVER got arrested even though they had him confessing on a 911 tape? I haven't.



It says a hell of a lot more about those cops than it does about the killer.

Johnny - posted on 03/26/2012

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I think you are missing the point. It is not simply about a teenager being shot. Which is a tragedy that happens far too often in your gun-happy drug war culture. It is about a monumental miscarriage of justice. When the police knew who shot him, had the shooter right in front of them, and chose to take his word that he did it in self-defense over all the evidence suggesting the opposite. They didn't even allow the legal system to try the man to determine if his claim of self-defense was legitimate. If this is a precedent, it basically makes it okay to shoot anyone in Florida, as long as you don't have a lot of witnesses, and then claim you did it in self-defense. You won't even get arrested. That is insane. Even in the cacophony of murders that are on the news every day, this stands out to people for good reason.

Christina - posted on 03/26/2012

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Post a reply!i see your point johnny but ive seen ppl die alot worse situations then this and you knly hurd about it for a day or two. Not an entire month. Yes I would be devistated if something happened to one of my kids but I wouldnt expect it to be all oved the news. Ive never seen things on the news around where I live about someone getting shot, raped ,and killed everywhere. We dont have sports favs putting kids who die here in richmond all over their shoes. I just think its a little much

Christina - posted on 03/26/2012

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i think some of this is getting out of hand. i understand that his family is mad they took someone from them. but what about all the other ppl in the world who have died. did they make such a big stink about that person getting justice.

Stifler's - posted on 03/26/2012

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I don't wear hoodies but I don't see how a hoodie is suspicious at all.

Dana - posted on 03/26/2012

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I wear hoodies all the time as well!



That being said....I think it may have more to do with the fact that the recent break-ins in that community were by young black men wearing hoodies.

You might as a parent in that community tell your kid to walk with their head high, don't wear your hood up and don't act suspicious/run/skirt anyone. - I'M NOT BLAMING THIS CHILD. I did however hear someone on the news that called it the perfect storm...I think they were right. :(

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/25/2012

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My husband is over 35 and he wears one every single day, to work and when we go out. He has like, 15 of them! lol

Janice - posted on 03/25/2012

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I think very few people under 35 don't wear hoodies at least occasionally! WTF

Becky - posted on 03/25/2012

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Geez, I wear a hoodie sometimes! Guess I'f better not wear it in Florida though!

Karla - posted on 03/24/2012

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Tah,



I wasn't totally shocked by Geraldo, but to Geraldo and in defense of Trayvon and all teens, it did cross my mind that probably 99% of teens in America own and wear hoodies. So I suppose in Geraldo's eyes any current fashion could be blamed? - Just like those mini skirts causing rapes. (for those who don't know that was sarcasm.)

Tah - posted on 03/24/2012

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...and then we have Geraldo saying that the boys Hoodie is what got him killed. People have been having protest in hoodies all over. I just caught a sale at hollister on hoodies and took my 16 year old son shopping, he and his friends go to the store all the time, and sometimes alone..This is frightening and hits close to home..

Johnny - posted on 03/22/2012

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It seems like some legal experts thing he can be prosecuted easily, and others think success will be unlikely. It is kind of odd. Usually there is some sort of consensus. The whole story is just so horrific. I feel so terribly for this young man's parents.

Dana - posted on 03/22/2012

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Yes, I've seen all too, Johnny. I don't know why they're still saying it's going to be hard if not impossible to prosecute this guy.

Johnny - posted on 03/22/2012

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I just saw a legal expert speaking about this on the news. She was saying that this law does require that the the person that you are "standing your ground" against must still be presenting threat to your life in order for you to use deadly force. So he was not even close to following the rules of this law.



The city council has also passed a vote of no confidence in their city police for failing to take action in this case.

Dana - posted on 03/22/2012

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I would explain it as two different cases, in different towns. Again, it still doesn't prove that it's racially motivated though. It does however show that these people strive to protect and "obey" these insane laws they've put in place.

Isobel - posted on 03/22/2012

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But that's exactly my point...THIS guy hasn't been and isn't expected to be arrested even though it is CLEAR that the law doesn't apply. How do you explain that? The clear an obvious protocol would be to arrest the person who had clearly committed the homocide and then let him use the law as a defense, not just leave him alone.

Dana - posted on 03/22/2012

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I never said he wasn't arrested... I said he got away with it.



Even though there were several witness who stepped forward (that DAY too) and testified in court.

I was speaking on the fact that these laws are messed up.

Isobel - posted on 03/22/2012

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He was never even arrested, or he got off? Those are two very different questions.

Dana - posted on 03/22/2012

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It is ridiculous, Johnny. As you may recall, I am not anti gun, but I do not like or agree with either of these laws. It seriously turns states into the wild west. It's horrifying.



They showed another case on the news from late 2010. A (black man) shot and killed a father (a [white] military veteran in his 30's) on a basketball court, right in front of the man's daughter.

The story is, the shooter who lives across the street, heard a boy skateboarding on the BB courts, he yelled at the boy to leave. The father (who was NOT this boy's father) decided to step in and ask the man why this young boy couldn't skateboard, that there were no signs to say he couldn't. The shooter left his house, crossed the street and confronted the man, attacked him, and in the scuffle shot him right in the heart. All the while this young girl was asking why no one was helping her daddy. This man has gotten off scott free, even though there were SEVERAL witness at the park that day who say the man went out of his way to attack this young father. - again, simply horrifying.

Dana - posted on 03/22/2012

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They are STILL saying on the news that with all the evidence they still might not be able to arrest him. It's insane.



But does back my idea that it's the laws, not racially motivated. ;)

Janice - posted on 03/21/2012

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I definitely agree that race played a role. I completely missed this news story till tonight and I am just astounded that this a-hole wasn't arrested. Rebecca K I hope you are right and they put this man away. The law itself is horrendous but obviously does not in any way apply to this case. What other motive besides race could there be for police covering up this murder?

Johnny - posted on 03/21/2012

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The idea that you could walk away without even a charge after hunting someone down and shooting them without real provocation is absolutely terrifying. The anarchy that can stem from that, unreal.



No wonder Dexter does so well there.

[deleted account]

Actually, I think this will be a very, very easy convinction for the prosecutor. He wasn't "standing his ground" -- he actually pursued and confronted someone for no valid reason. His confrontation was heard by witnesses, including the boy's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him when he was shot. Other witnesses heard the boy screaming for help. There is no evidence that Zimmerman was defending himself -- he was the aggressor.



I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him facing a 1st degree murder charge. He went after that kid with the goal of stopping him.

Mother - posted on 03/21/2012

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I can't see how they can use the "stand your ground" law. Zimmerman was not threatened. He went in pursuit of this young man....instigated an argument and shot him dead. Where is the justice?? This racist bigot needs to be put away.....wish corporal punishment was alive and well.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/21/2012

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The U.S. Department of Justice and FBI have announced they will open an investigation into the killing.



"This guy, who is not a neighborhood watch captain – he views himself that way but he’s not – in the past 15 months called Sanford, Florida police 46 times, which doesn’t speak to someone who’s even overzealous, it’s somebody who’s paranoid," Willie Geist said.



I think it is going to be very tough for them to prove any crime, which is sad. The fact is Florida has some really shitty laws. Even if it was a hate crime, it would be very hard to prove. The poor family of Trayvon Martin. I couldn't imagine. Their hands are tied, nothing they can do and their child is gone.



I think the laws are absolutely absurd and I agree, the shootings have increased 3 times from what they were before the "stand your ground law" was passed in 2005.



Something else that really pisses me off is Zimmerman is still allowed to carry a gun! It is not until charged and/or convicted of a felony does he lose that right.



http://mojoe.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03...



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46815248/ns/...



http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/a...

Dana - posted on 03/21/2012

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Again, I agree their was no excuse in what this man has done, nor is there a good excuse for not arresting him. I just think it had more to do with upholding/protecting these stupid laws than it did racism.

Karla - posted on 03/21/2012

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http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-coop...





Here's a quote from the Orlando Sentinel

"if George Zimmerman didn't break every rule in the book when it comes to Neighborhood Watch programs, he came close. ... Zimmerman was armed. He was alone. And while waiting for police, he somehow got into a fight with the person he thought suspicious. All three of those actions are strongly discouraged by the National Sheriffs' Association, which oversees about 20,000 Neighborhood Watch programs."



I usually stand by "Innocent until proven guilty," but with these two witnesses I don't see how Zimmerman can claim self-defense, and I don't see how he can claim innocents.



ETA: This is probably a better link...

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/

[deleted account]

Either way you look at it, it's a sad, sad loss of life. And the shooter being Hispanic or not, the shooting was definitely racially motivated. I don't know for a fact that it would have been different if it had been a black neighborhood watch guy who shot a young hispanic (or white) male. I think that's an easy assumption for people to jump to when racism is involved, as it clearly is in this case.

Dana - posted on 03/21/2012

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It's ridiculous, isn't it Karla. I saw that since this law has gone into effect, the homicide rate has tripled! - Absurd!

Karla - posted on 03/21/2012

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Rebecca T: What makes you think a Hispanic person would not have racist tendencies? Isn't it possible that a community could have tendencies of racism towards blacks but not Hispanics?



I don't think the fact that the shooter is Hispanic erases the issue at all, it's just adds to this debate, and hopefully to the investigation of the incident and to how that police force handled the situation.



ETA, Also, I don't think anyone here is solely putting this on racism, of course the law is too broad and allows too much vigilante activity.

Dana - posted on 03/21/2012

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Yes, he either said, "fucking coon or fucking punk". Other new sources are still saying it's not definite. I imagine they will find out for sure. - I don't doubt that he said the first, but would like a definite answer, personally.

Isobel - posted on 03/21/2012

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on CNN they just said he used a "racial slur" that they would not repeat on the air...I don't know if that's it, but I could assume. I did hear "bleeping bleep" on the tapes.

Dana - posted on 03/21/2012

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Rebecca, where have you heard that he referred to him as a "fucking coon"? I've been watching all reports and none of them say that. It was first reported and shown (heard) on tape, last week, as "fucking punks", now some are saying that he said "fucking coons". There are also questions that some are altering the tapes to back the "coon" comment.



And I'll reiterate, so no one thinks I'm sticking up for this asshole shooter....I do think that this shooting was a result of racial profiling.

Dana - posted on 03/21/2012

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Rebecca, if you look at my post you will see that I said the shooter did base this on his race. And everything else you've stated still does not prove that it was racially motivated by the police (which is what the debate is about). I'll state again, I STILL think this had more to do with protecting the shitty laws than it did with the color of the victim's skin.

Stifler's - posted on 03/20/2012

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Basically he was "suspicious" because he was black. I can't see another reason from the news report.

Mrs. - posted on 03/20/2012

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Hold up, didn't someone say if this was a black man shooting some kid up the police would be all over it? So, we find out the dude is Hispanic and it is still racially motivated?



Now it is because the police don't care about black kids not because this is just a stupid law and the Hispanic dude being crazy off his ass or it not being a black man who was the shooter?



Is it possible that we don't know all the details on this one? So, to assume it is all about race is jumping the gun (pardon the awful pun that could be taken...not purposeful) and projecting a great deal before we find out the real story, it is a bit presumptuous.

Johnny - posted on 03/20/2012

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You know, I just do not believe that they would have treated a black man the same way, even if he was a block watch captain in a gated community with a conceal and carry permit. Maybe I'm jaded from seeing a consistent level of hypocrisy in how black people are treated by law enforcement. The sentencing terms and arrest rates applied to black people, not to mention the lower level of attention and concern they receive as crime victims, makes me very skeptical that race isn't an issue here. I do think a big part of how this was dealt with is about him being "just a black kid". If it had been the lily-white kid from a neighboring gated community, I'm betting the Hispanic would have at least arrested, not just allowed to walk away.



There's a certain hierarchy at play. It's okay for a Hispanic to shoot a black person, but not a white person. White people can shoot anyone. Black people can only shoot other black people. Look at the US conviction and incarceration rates.

Dana - posted on 03/20/2012

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Yes, we can if you would like.

Although I have to point out that he did talk to police about it, he just wasn't arrested for it.



I also want to be clear, I do think the (Hispanic) man who shot him is guilty of racial profiling. However, I do think the police were basing it on the (shitty) laws, not on the idea of "Oh well, it's just a black kid". And I think that based on the shitty laws, they were still wrong for not arresting him because it's clearly not a case of self defense.

Karla - posted on 03/20/2012

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Well, the new information is:



"Zimmerman's father, 64-year-old Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary, delivered a one-page letter to the Sentinel on Thursday, saying that the depiction of his son in the media has been cruel and misleading.



George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family..."




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/loca...,0,1716605.story

***

(ETA)

My links not working properly... I'll try this

www

(then cut and past)

orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315

***



Zimmerman's father says, "At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon..."



After having listened to two of the calls to the police, I don't see how the father's statement could be true. And was he a witness? In one call the dispatcher asks George Zimmerman if he's following the suspect and Zimmerman says he is, and the dispatcher clearly tells him "We don't need you to do that." Then later Zimmerman is in someone's backyard? I'd say he was following Martin. And now there is the new information from a girl Martin was on the phone with during the chase.



As per this OP though, does the fact that Zimmerman is Hispanic change the race question and issue?

Dana - posted on 03/20/2012

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Laura, you've read my post wrong. I said, "I think it has to do with the laws set in place. Had it been a black man, with a conceal and carry, heading up the neighborhood watch in a gated community, I do believe the same thing would have taken place."



I did not say, "heading toward a gated community with a concealed weapon"



Meaning, I think no matter what the color was, the police would see a *man* who has a conceal and carry, and is part of the neighborhood watch (who happened to be on "duty" that night), in a gated community.

Jenny - posted on 03/20/2012

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I agree with Laura. If the races were reveres they would have had the choppers out combing the area within the hour. Take the little girl getting kidnapped stories that are smeared all over the media a few times a year. How many of them are not white girls?

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