AZ Law to Make it Legal to Lie to Women to Prevent Abortion

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Kate CP - posted on 03/11/2012

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There are several severe birth defects that render life outside the womb impossible. To force a woman to carry a baby to term then deliver the baby only to watch it suffer and die shortly after is horrific.

Krista - posted on 03/10/2012

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That's sad as hell, though, Chrissey, that you have to second-guess your own doctor and interpret your own damn test results. Physicians are put in a position of trust, and we SHOULD be able to trust them to interpret our test results accurately and without bias. Do they ever make mistakes? Of course -- they're human too. But the idea of a doctor putting his or her idealogy above my very health and life? That's the kind of crap that makes me start feeling pretty stabby.

Vegemite - posted on 03/10/2012

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I have some medical issues and with this experience I have learnt to get personal coppies of all test results. It is our medical property and we have every right to it. Learn to read the results, if there are some words that you don't understand there are many medical websites and online medical dictionaries that can explain, in layman's terms, just about any condition or terminology.

Danielle - posted on 03/10/2012

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Just got to love how some are SO interested in providing a voice for the unborn, and yet they aren't there after birth to make sure the child is fed, loved, taken care of & educated. IMHO if you want to prevent abortions while still defending everyone's right to procreate, then you can personally use YOUR money to help support that child until he/she is no longer a minor.



While I don't see myself having an abortion, there's no way in heck I would tell someone else she can't have one. I don't know everything that would cause her to consider that her only &/or best option in dealing with the pregnancy, but I do know that having a child will impact the mother physically, mentally & emotionally more than anyone else and it should ultimately remain something between her & God (assuming she believes in Him).

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Kimberlee - posted on 11/04/2012

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Danielle thats wonderful that you have given such a gift to a child. You are an inspiration !! I wish I could become a foster parent but because of my husbands health issues I can't right now , maybe down the line? I do volunteer though and help my community both children and adults. I wish more people would get involved and help out in anyway that fits for them.

Danielle - posted on 11/04/2012

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An update to my 3/10/12 post on this thread-- I became a foster/kinship mother less than 2wks later. It wasn't planned but my daughter's friend needed some place to stay after she & her five minor siblings were removed from their mother's custody for a variety of reasons.



Have those who want to make abortions illegal signed up to become foster parents? I can tell you there are a TON of hoops to jump through and it's a major pita (pain in the arse). They look at your finances, family history, contact family members & friends, and run criminal background checks. All pets have to have current vet records/shots. Everyone in the household has to have a physical to ensure everyone is healthy, no communicable diseases and all shots acquired. Before she can spend the night with anyone outside our household, DHS has to do a background check on that household & give permission. We had to provide DHS with a list of each hotel we were going to be in during our trip away from home before they would approve it. Every auto insurance renewal received has to be provided to DHS for them to add to our file.



I honestly wish parents who received state assistance had to go through even half of what we've gone through in order to collect & continue collecting money/aid. I also wish females AND males were prevented from having any kids until they had been off state assistance for five years. Learning that bio mom is pregnant again (will be kid #8) cements my opinion on the matter.



There may only be a handful of people taking advantage of the system, but they make it very hard to not be cynical. So I repeat to those who want to make abortion illegal -- until you directly help with the kids already here and help more people (females AND men) have reliable & affordable means to contraceptives, stop putting the cart before the horse and attempting to make things even more difficult for others.

Kimberlee - posted on 11/03/2012

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That's NUTS!! And it's just awful .

Politicians need to stay out of patient -Doctor relationship !

Vegemite - posted on 03/11/2012

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Kaitlin in the case of the UK implanon (birth control implant) there were many woman falling pregnant within the effective time period. If I remember correctly between 2weeks and 3years after implantation. So the product was tested and came back faulty and it was also found that in a lot of these woman the device was not inplanted correctly by Dr's.

[deleted account]

It's now more important than ever for any woman to ask the right questions, be more assertive, and demand to know the status of the baby. If she doesn't like the doctor's response, she needs to find a new doctor. This new law will test the doctor-patient trust level. If I were to ever find myself in a position with an unplanned pregnancy and was unsure of what to do, how to respond, or any severe abnormalities that would impact the baby or my own life, you better bet I would need to trust my doctor. If my doctor is willing to lie to save her own conscious, then I can't trust her. I will find a 2nd or 3rd opinion until I am satisfied with the answers. I won't allow the the local lawmakers, who do not have medical credentials, to make medical decisions for me.

Krista - posted on 03/11/2012

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Kaitlin, by "they", I was referring to those few doctors who WOULD use this law to put their own personal ideology above their patients. I agree completely that they are (thankfully) in the minority. But they are out there. Oh yes they are.

Kaitlin - posted on 03/11/2012

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okay- thought it was in response to something I said and I thought i'd clarify my thoughts. My bad.

Kate CP - posted on 03/11/2012

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"Kate, I'm aware of this- I'm not saying that a woman should be FORCED to do this- I'm saying I would and will carry a baby full term and see what God's plan is- I'm using this to explain that I'm VERY pro life, but I still think that this is a bad piece of legislation. Like I said, repeatedly, a doctor is not ethically responsible for the decisions of his/her patients after presenting all information, and therefore his/her ethical beliefs concerning abortion should not come into play. I'm agreeing with you. While I would make a decision you might think is horrific, and someone else may make one *I* think is horrific, it is my/their choice to make. "



I was just making a general comment.

Kaitlin - posted on 03/11/2012

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Krista E- to whom are you referring? Who 'says' this? (not trying to be catty, I really don't know where this information is coming from). The idea that THEY (?) just want us to not worry our little heads? I think this a rare, if at all, problem, and that there are deeper issues of legislation at stake here.



I can understand a doctor FEELING that way- We are all entitled to emotions- but legally, it's not the case. I have several friends in the medical field, that while they don't agree with the decisions of their patients, are able to disconnect what they are responsible for v what the patient is responsible for. That's how it should be.



I don't see where that kind of idea is coming from- it seems like the media is making this into something it's not (pro life/pro choice or religious argument rather than just a crappy piece of legislation). If anything, i think more medical professionals are pro choice than pro life. If you want to go in that direction ;)

Krista - posted on 03/11/2012

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Like I said, repeatedly, a doctor is not ethically responsible for the decisions of his/her patients after presenting all information, and therefore his/her ethical beliefs concerning abortion should not come into play.





That's not how they see it, though.



They do not trust women to make the "right" decision (i.e. the decision that THEY approve of), and so they want to keep us ignorant and unaware, because they obviously know better than we do. So we're to just not worry our pretty little heads about these things.

Kaitlin - posted on 03/11/2012

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Kate, I'm aware of this- I'm not saying that a woman should be FORCED to do this- I'm saying I would and will carry a baby full term and see what God's plan is- I'm using this to explain that I'm VERY pro life, but I still think that this is a bad piece of legislation. Like I said, repeatedly, a doctor is not ethically responsible for the decisions of his/her patients after presenting all information, and therefore his/her ethical beliefs concerning abortion should not come into play. I'm agreeing with you. While I would make a decision you might think is horrific, and someone else may make one *I* think is horrific, it is my/their choice to make.



Chrissey, i agree- we need doctors to do their job well so we as parents can do our job well, and that includes being completely prepared for the future. If a Dr fails to communicate/diagnose a situation, due to mistakes, neglect, or purposeful misinformation, that doctor should be held financially responsible.

I wonder, Chrissey, how these 'faulty product suits' get carried out because so many say 98 or 97 percent accurate- doesn't that mean that 1-3 percent of the time a pregnancy will occur? I'm not arguing that it's a faulty product, but I wonder how that could be soundly argued in court?

Vegemite - posted on 03/11/2012

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Oh wow so it's also to prevent wrongful pregnancy or conception suits. I wonder how this would work for instances like the one the UK where there were many cases of unwanted pregnancies due to a failure of the implanon birth control. These failures were not caused from misuse by the patients but by a faulty product. I think in this case I would want some compensation.



Sharon it's more about being able to work with Dr's and knowing when they aren't doing a good job rather than self diagnosing.

Kaitlin - posted on 03/11/2012

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I am very pro life. The debates recently have certainly been interesting. I am currently carrying a child that I don't know what will happen when I give birth to him. I believe in allowing all children, however they are born, to be born. I'm saying this so you know a little about where I'm coming from. I also want to say that anyone interested in this topic should look at the actual legislation first- I think there is a lot of media coverage trying to make something out of this that it is not. Here is a link:

http://www.azleg.gov//FormatDocument.asp...



That being said, I think this law is VERY poorly written. While I very much disagree with the idea of 'wrongful life', i feel like this law would be a get out of jail free card for neglect. Parents who have a child that needs special care and did not know before the child was born should be entitled to certain funds to be able to care for that child.

Also, a doctor is NOT responsible ethically for the decisions of a patient/parent after providing all information. They may try to steer in one direction or another, but they are NOT ethically responsible if the parent decides to abort a child- this should not come in to play here.

A doctor IS responsible for caring for the patient and informing the patient. I don't know of any doctors that would purposefully neglect to do so, but I'm sure it's happened, however few times, and I'm sure overloaded doctors can make mistakes just like any of us, and in these situations, a family should have certain medical bills paid or other financial support.

AZ does some pretty ridiculous things in general. Are we really surprised? no. That doesn't make it right. The government is going crazy lately trying to make decisions for every person. Goodness.

[deleted account]

Chrissey I applaud you for being pro-active in learning about yourself in medical terms, gathering your records, and educating yourself. What I can see happening down the road is that more and more women are going to start self-diagnosing and misinterpreting medical results. Maybe do a half-ass research or not cross-referencing their findings. It's incredibly sad. But like I stated above, women here are resilient and we will work around, behind, through, the shitty doctors here in AZ in order to find optimum health care.

Tracey - posted on 03/11/2012

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I always thought my sons disability was caused by medical negligence during birth, now I realise it was caused by God... although as I haven't had an abortion maybe someone can explain why he felt the need to "punish" me?



Perhaps someone can round these doctors up and force them to raise the disabled children they have brought into the world.

Vegemite - posted on 03/11/2012

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Just read this in the Washington Post. What is going on over there. They are planning on withdrawing medical care to an estimated 130,000 low-income woman in Texas because the Women's Health Program is affiliated with Planned Parenthood or other groups that offer abortions. It's madness



Sorry had to post the whole thing as the link just sent me to my FB page.









"HOUSTON (AP) — The federal government will stop funding a Texas health program that serves 130,000 low-income women because of a state law that bars abortion-affiliated clinics from getting public money, a top U.S. health official said Friday.



The federal money, which covers 90 percent of the state's $40 million program, will be phased out between May and September because the law violates federal regulations requiring that women have a choice in medical care, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said during a trip to Houston. That means the Women's Health Program will join a long list of programs nationwide on the chopping block because of their affiliations with Planned Parenthood or other groups that offer abortions.



The announcement came a day after Texas Gov. Rick Perry pledged to find state money to keep the program afloat, though details remain scarce about where the money would come from. Texas suffered massive spending cuts last year due to a $15 billion deficit, though a state health services official said Friday that Texas would prefer to increase its deficit than completely eliminate the program.



Perry blasted Sebelius' announcement, insisting Medicaid rules give states the right to determine which clinics are qualified to provide women's health care.



"The fact that the Obama administration would announce its decision to deny care for more than 100,000 low-income women during a press event before giving official notice to the state is a clear demonstration of the political motivation behind this decision," he said in a written statement, adding that Texas officials are still waiting for official word on the decision.



As is the case with other programs now in the national spotlight, the Women's Health Program provides cancer screenings, family planning and other women's health services. About 44 percent of women in the Texas program go to Planned Parenthood clinics, although none that accept funding from the program may perform abortions, and no federal funds are used to terminate pregnancies.



The problem in Texas is being caused by lawmakers' desire to prevent state funds from going to Planned Parenthood. The state is implementing a law that bars public funds from going to any programs, organizations or groups that are affiliated with abortions, even if they don't perform them.



After touring a hospital in Houston, Sebelius said the state law violates federal Medicaid regulations that require women be allowed to choose where they go for health care. Federal funds flowed to Texas under a waiver, but "we plan to let Texas know that that waiver will not be extended," Sebelius said.



The money will be phased out so women have time to find alternative care, she said.



The state was warned that implementing the law would jeopardize federal funding, and Texas chose not to immediately enforce it when it was passed, Sebelius added.



"They knew ... they are not allowed to deny women the right to choose," Sebelius said. "Women would be losing their doctor, their medical home, their choice."



Stephanie Goodman, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Health and Human Services, said money to pay for the program would be diverted from others that are under budget — though she didn't offer specifics. If that doesn't cover the costs, she said, the state would increase its deficit to pay for the services because officials believe that if low-income women don't have access to birth control, the birth rate would rise and cost the state another $57 million in maternity bills.



Last year, Texas lawmakers slashed state funding for women's health and family planning programs by $73.6 million — cutting services to 160,000 women. They also took $10 million from a separate family planning budget line and shifted those responsibilities to organizations that administer Medicaid in Texas.



Now, with the expected cut in federal funds, "there's a huge gap in family planning" in Texas, Sebelius said.



State Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee, D-Houston, said she and members of Congress are negotiating with Sebelius and federal officials to find a way to ensure that the funds don't stop flowing.



And while Sebelius said her department has been trying to work with the state to provide a solution, she didn't indicate that would happen before March 14, when the state plans to begin enforcing the law.



"We have been working with Texas. We're eager to work with Texas to find a solution," Sebelius said. "But if Texas chooses to go down a road that violates the law, we really have no choice.""



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Stifler's - posted on 03/11/2012

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Disgusted. I would be very mad if my child had birth defects that I never knew about. I agree with Danielle, the people making all these decisions aren't going to be the ones looking after the baby.

[deleted account]

This is insane. Do women have to query their MDs about their religious beliefs before receiving care from them? Oh, your a Catholic, well I guess I will have to find another doctor since I know you are pro-life....nice.

Vegemite - posted on 03/10/2012

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I agree and if I hadn't asked my GP and she wasn't so good at explainind the MRI and showing me where and what the findings were I might have believed the first Dr. After all he was the specialist and yes my symptoms could have been due to having kids back to back and husband who worked 6 days a week, 12 hours a day.



I think it's important to know that not all Dr's can be trusted just because they are a Dr, to take control of our own health and not leave it entirely up to the them.

Krista - posted on 03/10/2012

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And that's awesome that you've done that. But what about some other woman who might not be as intelligent as you, and unable to grasp those complex issues. Her trust is in her doctor -- and that is a huge responsibility. And the idea that a doctor would exploit that trust because of his own political leanings? It's really rather sickening.

Vegemite - posted on 03/10/2012

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Not realy Krista I see it as educating myself on the complex issues of my body. My endocrinologist is always stunned by my knowledge of my medical condition. She says she loves having a patient who can discuss treatment plans and medications with her.



Dr's do get it wrong the first endo I went to told me there was nothing wrong and my symptoms were normal and expected for a woman who'd spent the last 2.5yrs having babies and breastfeeding. Eventhough I had proof on an MRI which he didn't read correctly.

[deleted account]

Makes me so sickend and ashamed to live in Arizona. But like all issues out here, we figure things out. Women will soon figure out which doctors won't speak, and which doctors will share the results in an honest manner. More than likely, the doctors who won't say anything are the ones living in more the conservative communities of East Mesa, Gilbert, Chandler where the local legislature dominates everything with a religious overtone. Doesn't surprise me, but I know women will doctor shop around. And honestly, this bill was passed by people are NOT doctors so it's hard to say how the medical community has responded, and will respond once they are up against the issue.

Kate CP - posted on 03/10/2012

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I said it before and I'll say it again:



Susan B. Anthony and Cady Stanton are rolling over and screaming in their graves. *shakes head*

Jodi - posted on 03/10/2012

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Pardon me while I kick of my shoes, get myself knocked up, don a smart house dress and plant myself in front of the kitchen sink...at least until hubby needs himself a sammich and a beer....

Vegemite - posted on 03/10/2012

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This is crazy. I'm against abortion but there's always an exception to anything. I was against abortion in all cases until a friend of mine found out her first and much wanted baby had severe birth defects including spina bifida. She found out at the 20week scan and decided to abort which happened at 22weeks. When the baby was born he was so badly deformed he didn't even look like a human baby. It was so sad, so now my opinion has changed. Why should a baby have to be born just so it can suffer then die when we have the medical technology to prevent it.



I understand wanting to prevent wrongful birth suits but as Krista just said it's just about impossible to prove a person's intent. We've all seen that there are dr's who aren't ethical.

Krista - posted on 03/10/2012

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The way they're getting around this is because there's a provision saying that the doctor can still be sued if you can prove that he or she INTENTIONALLY withheld information.



But I think it goes without saying that intent is pretty damn hard to prove.



I'm sure that MOST AZ doctors are ethical, but all it takes is one who puts his/her ideology ahead of the patient, and it really wouldn't be that hard for the doctor to claim that he/she "missed" the result, or misinterpreted it, or some other such thing.



Heck, as a friend of mine (who is a doctor, and who is appalled by this) put it, "What's next? Radiologists who can just decide not to disclose birth defects, saying 'Oh, I didn't see that...sorry!'?"

Mary - posted on 03/10/2012

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Johnny, I was thinking the same thing. To me, it would be akin to having an x-ray that clearly shows a tumor, and your doctor failing to tell you of the findings.



I wonder what the AMA and ACOG make of this.

Corinne - posted on 03/10/2012

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Yeah, Happy Womens Day indeed. C'mon ladies, back to the dark ages we go.....

[deleted account]

Yes, a doctor can also decide not to tell a woman she has an ectopic pregnancy. Thus dooming he to pain, heartbreak, possibly sterilization and death



but hey at least the fetus won't die a few weeks/months earlier!

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