Bartenders To Blame?

Kayle - posted on 11/05/2010 ( 38 moms have responded )

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On Halloween a pregnant mother of 4 got killed by a hit and run drunk driver.

They eventually found out who did it. A 33 year old guy and this would be his 4th DUI.

Newspaper is trying to place blame on the bartender that served him.

What do you think is it the bartenders fault that he came to their bar got drunk then chose to drive and killed this lady?

My parents own a bar and they do cut people off if they have had to many drinks and/or can tell they are getting wasted. If they can tell they arn't able to drive they offer to call them a cab but ultimatly can't force them to.

Any person who had dealt with an alcoholic can tell you that an alcoholic can be completly wasted but can put on a face so people can't tell they are drunk. Also how many drinks did the person have before they came to that bar? or did the person have anything to drink? That all matters on how drunk a person is going to get.

Why arn't they placing the blame on the guy who knew his limit and chose to still drive drunk?

What is this world coming to where we can just place our blame on anybody?

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Kayle - posted on 11/05/2010

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Since they want to hold the bar responsible I think all bars should have a disclaimer sign hung up stating "OUR DRINKS WILL IMPAIR YOUR JUDGEMENT PROCEED WITH CAUTION" or "IT"S NOT OUR FAULT IF YOU CHOOSE TO DRIVE DRUNK AFTER DRINKING HERE" Or "WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU DO AFTER YOU LEAVE THIS BAR"

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Stifler's - posted on 11/07/2010

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Here if you get busted hooning (making undue noise, doing burnouts etc.) you get your car impounded and crushed. I don't know why they don't do the same thing to drink drivers.

Sharon - posted on 11/07/2010

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First DUI offense - typical standard punishment

Second DUI offense - loss of vehicle, sold at auction to benefit victims & families of victims of drunk drivers

Third DUI offense is a public ass whooping by grieving - oh hell lets stone the fuckers to death. Honestly, we've taken their vehicle and they still get busted with a DUI???? Who ever sold/gave/loaned the vehicle loses their car or the profit from it.

If your alcoholism is that fucking bad, move next door to a bar and walk your ass home.

[deleted account]

I do realise that he may not be driving with a licence, I am just saying that he should definately have his licence revoked.

For those driving without a licence, they should be able to use the laws for uninsured drivers, where if your found to not have insurance your car can be removed for re-sale or even crushed, although I think crushing is incredibly wasteful unless the car is not road safe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/31...

Kayle - posted on 11/06/2010

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I'm with ya there Sharon. I hate alcoholics too and the people who enable them. I grew up with my dad an alcoholic who has had 3 DUIs. His entire family enables him. It pisses me of even more that he still drives even though he doesn't have his licence and he still drives drunk. I just don't go around anymore (most of my family blames me for my dads alcoholism. I'm not sure how I'm to blame but it's whatever. Just another way to enable him I suppose.)

Sharon - posted on 11/06/2010

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Cars with breathalizer blow tubes installed are circumvented by the easy expedient of having SOMEONE ELSE blow into the tube.

I don't understand that all. I swear to god that I don't understand that all. WHO does that shit? If the person driving is to drunk to pass the installed breathalizer unit - why would you blow for them? Sometimes I know its kids who do it for a parent. But most of the time its a friend or S.O.

I hate drunk drivers & I hate the fuckers who enable them.

Kayle - posted on 11/06/2010

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This guy didn't have his licence and was still driving.

Here is some wishful thinking. Cars have to be started by thumbprint and your thumbprint can be put in the data base and taken out. So until you get your licence you can't drive and if it gets taken away you can't drive. I know there would be flaws to it but it's ssomething to think about. lol

Bonnie - posted on 11/06/2010

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I don't think they should blame the bartender. Like it was mentioned, many people come to the bar already drunk, but can look as though they are not. It's a shame and very sad. I think the guy that committed the crime should get the maximum sentence, first of all because this is his 4th DUI and secondly he ended up killing someone. I feel very sorry for those children.

[deleted account]

The bartender didn't make him drive. It's stupid. The laws aren't severe enough regarding drunk driving and THAT is the problem. wtf?

Laura - posted on 11/06/2010

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I would like to remind every one that is saying that he should get his license revoked that you do not need to have a license to get a DUI. He was prob driving without a license. Just cuz you don't have a license doesn't mean you don't still have a car. Personally after three I think he should be sitting in jail for a very long time. Where I live we have a 24/7 program where twice a day they have to go take a breathalizer and if they fail they get thrown in jail. They are not allowed to drink at all. I think it's stupid to blame the bartender. Put the blame where it belongs on the stupid idiot who decided to drive.

ME - posted on 11/06/2010

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I used to be a bartender, and they made a law while i was working that put the blame equally on the bar and the bartender. 10,000 dollar fine. It was terrifying...you better believe I started cutting peole off who couldn't control themselves! I also started calling more cabs for my regulars who I didn't want to cut off, and refused to let drive home. I don't think that it's the bartender's responsibility to do this, but I do think that it could work to reduce accidents!

[deleted account]

The driver is to blame, but so is the justice system. If you are caught DUI you should lose your licence for a set period of time no BS about fines or slaps on the wrist, everybody knows that you do NOT drink and drive and so they should be punished FIRST time and IF they do repeat offend once their licence is returned they should have their licence removed PERMANENTLY! If this guy had of lost his licence, this mother of 4 and her baby may still be alive!

Sharon - posted on 11/05/2010

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I don't know about THIS guy, but the argument is that the person was OBVIOUSLY intoxicated.

I have seen people leave bars stumblin' pukin drunk. The bouncers called the cops when they got in their cars.

THAT is responsible.

IF someone drinks the equivalent of half a bottle of Everclear - then you can safely assume that they are INTOXICATED. After a certain number of beers - a person of ANY weight is DRUNK.

It sucks ass that we have to nursemaid the other assholes who can't control themselves. It sucks more that people SEE that someone is blasted to their toenails and they don't do shit about it.

Frankly, the bartender needs to be served, the STATE needs to be sued for letting that worthless fuck get off the hook so many times. And that asshole needs to be charged with murder. Not fucking manslaughter.

Johnny - posted on 11/05/2010

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If you hold a bar responsible for someone drinking & driving could you hold the liquor store or the grocery store or whomever sold the alcohol to the drinking driver? I'll agree that bars should attempt to keep people from drinking & driving, but in reality they can only do so much. I think their attempts should be spurned from being good citizens rather than the threat of criminal charges. They are not responsible, the person choosing to drink and drive is the one who committed the crime.

Stifler's - posted on 11/05/2010

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Why is it the pub's fault that he drove drunk, they have no business telling people what they can and can't do when they leave their establishment.

Kayle - posted on 11/05/2010

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His preliminary hearing is sometime next week. The paper says he's facing mulitple charges, including aggravated driving under the influence and failure to report an accident. Shouldn't he be charged with vehicular homicide x2? I hope he get's the max. I mean 3 DUIs before this they can't let him off easy. Well at least he shouldn't. But who knows with our court system anymore.

Chrystal - posted on 11/05/2010

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I completely agree. You can't place blame on the bartender. The bartender didn't force the drunk guy/girl to get behind the wheel of the car. It is the drunk guy/girls fault.

Kayle - posted on 11/05/2010

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I am glad we all agree. The newspaper actually posted something on there facebook site about it and people were saying that the bar should be held liable.

But as Tara K. said the family can end up sueing the bar. It's a sue happy world we live in now a days. I'm not quite sure how a lawsuit and money is going to bring back or help you over come the loss of a love one but it's what people do now a days.

No the fetus did not survive unfortunaltely.

Katherine - posted on 11/05/2010

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It's all about people being sue happy and wanting to place blame elsewhere.
Really if they want to get technical, a lot of bars here have a PBT. Super simple, if you blow they call a cab. Also if yu're an alcoholic you have a toleance and a bartender may not see you as being drunk. For sure the drivers fault!!!

Jodi - posted on 11/05/2010

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And we wonder why so many people drive drunk? Why the heck not when you can kill someone and get off the hook by blaming the person from whom you bought your alcohol? Ridiculous! His 4th DUI?! I think after the second one he should have had his license revoked! WTF, this is the crap that pisses me off so much! This man CHOSE to get plastered (or even just buzzed), get in his car and drive home...killing two innocent lives. (I'm just assuming the fetus didn't survive) And there is actually someone even hinting that he shouldn't be held responsible for his own decisions? BS! I have ZERO tolerance for drunk drivers.

Tara - posted on 11/05/2010

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I do not believe that it should be the responsibility of the bartender or owner when an accident or tragedy does occur but here in Ontario every bartender must have their smart serve license which teaches them not to serve anyone who appears over the limit. They can refuse to serve and do so to protect themselves from the liquor control board of ontario not the general public. They can lose their license to serve if they are caught serving people who are already intoxicated. I'm not sure now but I know at one time liability did fall on the shoulders of those who owned and served, my cousin was involved in a law suit for years cause she served a guy who had arrived already drunk before her shift. She only served him two drinks but he went out and killed a couple and a baby on his way home. I think it's changed now as far as liability goes now, but technically as a bartender you are not supposed to serve people until they are drunk. It is illegal to be drunk in a public place too, so as soon as you step out of the bar drunk you are technically breaking the law.
The guy in this scenario should be locked up for a long long time and should never be allowed to drive again.
This is as good as pre-meditated murder in my books.

Ez - posted on 11/05/2010

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Definitely the driver's fault. In Australia, all bars, clubs and pubs must adhere to the Responsible Service of Alcohol policy. Which means that they have the responsibility to stop serving to a clearly intoxicated patron. If the police raid, and they do, and the place is full of people who are pissed as nits, the establishment will cop a large fine and potentially lose their licence to trade.



But as someone else said, the bar staff can do their job and cut a drunk off (in accordance with the RSA) but they have no control over what they do from there.

[deleted account]

I totally blame the cigarette makers for my smoking addiction....why take responsibility and blame myself? (rolls eyes) lol

Rosie - posted on 11/05/2010

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drivers fault, definitely. wish i could do a whole bunch of messed up shit and blame someone else for it. although, now that i think about it, people did that with cigarette makers. not sure how i feel about that one...

Leah - posted on 11/05/2010

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My husband is a bouncer at a bar and they are so strict on serving drinks. If anyone even smells of alcohol before entering the bar, they are denied access. Bartenders keep a tally on how many drinks each person has and where the cut off point is. They also have a free shuttle to take customers home. Every precaution is taken to try to prevent these kind of horrible things from happening.

In this case, the driver is 100% to blame. Some people can act totally normal when in fact they are plastered. Hopefully this guy gets jail time.

[deleted account]

Imagine if liability for drunk people was passed to the bartender. We'd have a lot less (or NO) bartenders!

Jocelyn - posted on 11/05/2010

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The drivers fault. I am a bartender, and there are times when I will do anything to make sure that someone doesn't drive home. I will offer to drive them home myself, but the thing is is that you CAN"T make somebody do anything. Sure we can stop serving you, but by the time someone is cut off the damage is already done. Once a person leaves the bar, (we can call the cops on them) but they are legally not our problem.

[deleted account]

Something just hit me when I re-read the original post. It was his 4th DUI. FOURTH. There's the problem right there. The "three strikes" rule apparently doesn't apply to where he lives. A friend of mine in Florida got her 2nd DUI about 2 years ago and lost her license. She JUST finished jumping through the proper hoops (mega fines, AA meetings and driving courses) to get her license back. I say first DUI, fines out the ass. 2nd DUI, the same thing my friend had to do but eventually, if you're a good boy / girl, you get your license back. 3rd DUI? Never drive again, period. OR, if you do drive again, make it mandatory to have one of those breathalizer things attached to your starter. Can't start your car if you're blood alcohol is over a certain amount.

[deleted account]

It's a nice idea in theory Lyndsay, but it'll never happen. That would be infringing on people's RIGHTS. Never mind the rights of all the people they may kill as they make their way home...

Lyndsay - posted on 11/05/2010

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I think that people coming into a bar should have to hand over their keys upon entry, and pick them up before they leave. If someone has more than two drinks, regardless of their size or apparent level of intoxication, they should have to come back for their keys in the morning or call someone to drive them home.

[deleted account]

Definitely the driver's fault. I think the only thing a bar is responsible for is making sure that everyone who enters the bar is of age, which means knowing how to spot fake ID's. Assuming everyone in the bar is of legal age to drink, that means they are adults and responsible for making their own decisions. He chose to drink as much as he did. He chose to drive his car. Driver's fault all the way.

I hate hearing about stuff like this. Because of some stupid asshole there are now 4 children with no mother and I'm assuming the baby she was pregnant with died too. Just so damn sad.

♏*PHOENIX*♏ - posted on 11/05/2010

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Drivers fault....
Though most places have the right to refuse service...I think it should be stated at the front door, "Our bartenders will stop serving you alcohol iF you appear to be under the influence...." or something like that..

Amy - posted on 11/05/2010

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its the drivers fault. the bartender was only dong his job, how was he to know that this guy was planning on driving after. the law is there for a reason and this is it!

[deleted account]

I think it's ridiculous that they can blame the bartender. It's not the bartender's job to stop the guy from leaving. He works in a bar and serves alcohol. Getting drunk is what happens in a bar. It's not uncommon. The courts in BC (where I'm from in Canada) started charging the owners of the house where a party was held if the guests left drunk, but I think they're in more of a position to be responsible and they can take the keys or stop a person from leaving (of course if they can prove they tried to stop but the person left with force, there would be no responsibility). The guy who drove drunk is definitely and always to blame for accidents and deaths he causes.

Such a sad story. I'm so sad for her family :(

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