Church abuses babies

Katherine - posted on 03/31/2011 ( 92 moms have responded )

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Are you tired of people doing horrible things and saying their religion supports that abhorrent behavior? If so, you can add the Aleitheia Bible Church in Wisconsin to your list of hypocrites and sickos you'd like to see punished for twisting religion to make it fit into their disgusting world view.



Philip Caminiti, the pastor of the church, and seven members are facing charges of child abuse for beating children as young as 2 months old with wooden rods. Yes, that says 2 months old. Because Caminiti says children will be happy and obedient if you beat them correctly. He also believes the beatings should begin as early as 1 1/2 months old. And guess why these infants are being smacked with wooden rods?



Caminiti believes that children should be spanked for "being emotional, grumpy, or crying." You know, like ALL infants are since it's their only way of communicating. Also, they must be absolutely quiet in church. Because clearly everyone needs to hear what this evil "man of God" is preaching without the interruption of a baby coo.



The other parents involved in the church also said that "redness and bruising" are part of the spankings. Will someone please take these children -- who range in age from 2 months to 6 years -- out of these wackos' homes? Sparing the rod and spoiling the child is a damaging philosophy at any age, but when you're talking pre-schoolers and infants, it's cruel and unbelievably unnecessary.



If anyone is laying a hand on a baby and trying to correct his behavior -- you need your head examined. And possibly to be locked up for a very, very, long time. Which is what I sincerely hope happens to Caminiti and this crew (one of whom is being described as a "loving" mother -- my a**). Otherwise I might have to take those wooden rods and shove them up Caminiti's.



Do you think it's okay to punish babies this way?

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Becky - posted on 04/01/2011

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Believers should always question what their spiritual leaders are teaching them and test it against their Holy book and their own conscience. Just because someone is a priest, pastor, shamman, whatever, does not mean that they are infallible. It doesn't mean they cannot misinterpret what they read, or that they cannot be lead astray by greed, lust, etc. They are subject to the same desires and vices that all the rest of us have. You don't have to look very far to find religious leaders who have "fallen from grace." So for any believer, of whatever religion, to just blindy follow what their leader says, without ever questioning it, especially when it is questionable, is foolish. Unfortunately, it seems too many people do do exactly this, otherwise we would not have churches like this, we would not have suicide bombers, we would not have had what happened in Waco, etc.

Alexis - posted on 04/01/2011

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@ Loureen, I agree, discipline is not punishment...Discipline doesnt hurt, it teaches! If discipline is resulting in physical pain or psychological damage then its not discipline...

Johnny - posted on 04/01/2011

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It is supposed to help us to be good people. I think that's one of the biggest issues I have with religion. If there is a god (being an agnostic I'm not a "knower") I can never see any possible god's will being as its been told to us by other men. It's always a translation. It always comes through a book written by man or a "holy man" or a priest/pastor/reverend/swami/pope/lama/imam etc. who interprets this word so that we may "understand" it.

Many people do think for themselves and ignore what others tell them is right and follow their own moral compass, guided by god or not. Unfortunately, too many people feel the need to second guess that internal voice that helps them know what is moral and listen to someone else.

I always wonder, if you believe, but you have doubts about what someone else is telling you (be it your holy book or holy person) why are those doubts not god speaking to you? Whenever I see people having doubts about scripture or the words of their clergy, it always must be the work of Satan. They never seem to assume that it just might be their god telling them to follow their own conscience.

Johnny - posted on 04/01/2011

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I agree with you Alexis. It seems that atrocities happen when people stop thinking for themselves and blindly follow. It does not even have to be a religion, it can be a philosophy or political ideal that is immoral in its design or is perverted by its leaders at a later point. You always hear after the fact about all the doubts that the followers had, but they ignored them because they were told their doubts were wrong for whatever reason the leaders could think up.

Minnie - posted on 04/01/2011

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Ok- but the point I'm trying to make is that the Bible was written in an oriental circular pictoral language- and that non beliver or believer, one can't interpret it directly through a western eye and a linear phonetic language. Yes, atrocities abounded back then (and still do) but the meaning of the passage isn't literal. The Hebrews looked to the rod, as a source of comfort and guidance. The tribal leader would carry a staff and travelers could look to the one who carried the staff for shelter.

So yes, people probably did abuse the literal rod back then, just like people abuse the interpretation of a poetic language.

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Candice - posted on 04/11/2013

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I spank when my two kids cross a line they have full knowledge they are not supposed to And only for the most serious of offenses NOT willy nilly and ANYONE doing it and then claiming their religion or in-doctrine supports and commands it is in need of serious counseling.

Amanda - posted on 05/22/2011

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I use spanking, NOT BEATING, in my household. However i do not agree with spanking a child at such an early age. They don't even know whats going on around them let along what is wrong with themselves. Babies cry as communication that something is wrong b/c they can't talk. In my opinion ,when the parent knows that the child is aware of right and wrong is when to start using spanking. Just a note...I do not use a wooden rod or stick of any kind on my kids...i use my hand and so far it has worked for me. I don't like to spank but when i have to say the same thing over and over or the child knows what they are doing is wrong then i spank.

Jenni - posted on 04/06/2011

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In some parts of Africa some Christian communities still believe children can be witches:



"Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.



The problem is that parishioners are following the Bible to the word:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."



http://sugarfreak.typepad.com/mobtownsha...



Campaigners against the practice say around 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 states over the past decade and around 1,000 have been murdered. In the past month alone, three Nigerian children accused of witchcraft were killed and another three were set on fire."



Scary what happens when some people follow the Bible word for word and apply those interpretations to today's society. Hmmm. Come to think of it. I think this ties in with the homosexuality being a sin thread.

Renae - posted on 04/06/2011

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Wow, which century are these people from? In the first half of the 1800s children were believed to be born bad and the devil needed to be beaten out of them. Did we just lose a couple hundred years or what?

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People like them are the ones that start up freaky "end of the world" cults or the one where the main man has like 30 women he sleeps with and some being children. I'm no Christian or anything, but I think (know so) that people like those are the ones that give all Christians a bad name I:

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omg people are so twisted its scary!! and then people believe them and follow them and do whatever they say!! Hello whtever happened to having a mind of your own and think hmmm probably shouldnt beat my newborn with a wooden rod. Maybe crying is normal for babies!! they are stupid and they will get theirs one way or another. Poor babies and stupid parents!! This really gets me heated i cant stand it i hope the children have been taken away.

Tshanna Ele - posted on 04/02/2011

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It is the people who act irrationally or radically about anything that turns people away...

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HELL no. No way. That is unbelievable. "Loving mother"? What the hell is she thinking? They should have their children taken away from them. They are the ones who should be -punished.- Seriously. What the heck.

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I know only what my heart tells me.

No religion can ever turn me to hurt anybody.

In any way or form.



If it does its not my religion or should be anybodys.



Religion is for good not for bad.I like to believe god is good and no harm is associated with his name.



I think all Religions interpet the bible different.Fine but if its done to turn the bible against the weak, like in this case its not forgiveable in my book.Only God will judge you for your Actions in the end.:-)

Stifler's - posted on 04/01/2011

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I agree. We need to think for ourselves and if it doesn't feel like the right thing to do, it probably isn't. Especially beating 2 month old babies.

Vegemite - posted on 04/01/2011

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Too true Johnny and Becky. I must say recently I am coming across more Christians who do follow God and not man. This includes Christians i knew 10 years ago who never questioned. I spent the last 6 years questioning if I even want to believe in God and Christ but in the last year I've realised that I can't renounce God and Christ because some people choose not to do what is right or try to manipulate God for their own agenda. The things i have learnt recently is that I must work on my own salvation and relationship with God, I can't worry about what Jo down the road tells me how or what I should or shouldn't believe. If I act in love and good conscience i can't go wrong. And faith without works is useless, I must put my faith, beliefs, love and good conscience into practice.

Vegemite - posted on 04/01/2011

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That's what i thought too Julianne, sometimes I wonder. So now I rely on my own relationship with God and Christ and when we attend church we go to a non denominational pentecostal church. I also like that our church is governed by a board appointed by the members of the church, anyone who attends the church can become a member. Also there is the United Australian Pentecostal Church board that overseas the workings of all pentecostal churches in Australia. It means that it's very hard for the Pastor to bring in practices like the one mentioned in the OP

Kate CP - posted on 04/01/2011

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Julianne: Apparently by beating it into our skulls from a very young age. :(

Minnie - posted on 04/01/2011

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Kate- it's just something so incredibly atrocious one doesn't even want to conceive of it. I remember being astounded the first time I read about Molech.

Kate CP - posted on 04/01/2011

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I had never heard of this before. It took a long time to finally find it on the net, too. My apologies.

Vegemite - posted on 04/01/2011

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foundation sacrifice has been documented archaeologically involving anything from wall hangings of sacrificed animals to horse heads laid buried in the flooring foundation and then the extreme of child sacrifice.

Alexis - posted on 04/01/2011

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No its not ok, and im not trying to start another religious argument but many evil things, horrendous acts even genocides have been done because of someone twisting religious beliefs to give them the moral high ground to do so. And this is with many religions not just one in particular, and not just mainstream ones either.

Kate CP - posted on 04/01/2011

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Why would I want you to mail me a child's skeleton? That's morbid.

Again, I'm not saying that child sacrifice didn't happen. I'm saying that I've never heard of babies being sacrificed just to be built into a building OR burnt alive. Everything I have ever read on the subject has discussed ritual blood letting of infants.

BTW, I *am* a Christian. My denomination is UU, if you're wondering.

Vegemite - posted on 04/01/2011

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Moloch, Molech, Molekh, Molok, Molek, Molock, or Moloc (representing Semitic מלך m-l-k, a Semitic root meaning "king") was a god of child burnt sacrifice. There are mentions of this in historical, archeological and biblical text

Minnie - posted on 04/01/2011

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Ah yes, I was trying to remember the name Molech- the God the babies were sacrificed into his arms.

But it is very clearly pointed out in the Bible that these were condemned practices by God.

I guess it just serves to say that people are pretty messed up.

Emily - posted on 04/01/2011

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Kate - Such physical evidence is entirely impossible, without having lived during that time period. (It's hard enough to prove such things that happen today with forensics.) I cannot mail you a baby skeleton. I don't have any that aren't currently walking around in living children. That source was, however, stating that the archeological evidence was found.

Many sources I could cite would require that I pay for the privilege. You'll forgive me for not choosing to do so. Here is one free one though:

"references to human sacrifice abound in the Biblical records, and bones unearthed in sanctuaries attest to child sacrifices. Moreover, the prophets' fierce condemnations of this custom as repulsive, and repugnant to Israel's sacrificial ritual, confirms its existence. The practice of human sacrifices was, in part, an inheritance from the Canaanites and Phoenicians, who continued it long after it was forgotten among the Babylonians and Egyptians, and in part an isolated reappearance of an ancient and widely spread
custom in most areas of the ancient Near East"

Source: Journal of the History of Medicine - Edward Neufield. 1970 p. 16

I realize it is a "religious source", if you will... But the Babylonian Talmud DEFENDS the Jews' "right/ability" to burn their children to death as a sacrifice to Moloch. It finds a way around the bible's condemnation of child sacrifice. Again, it's a "religious source", but why, I ask, would the bible condemn the Jews sacrificing their children, if they didn't do it???? (The same question the source above indicates settles it as fact.)

Jenni - posted on 04/01/2011

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Well I've found talking to you ladies on COM refreshing and it has really extinguished a lot of the negative opinions/ideas I had about Christians and the faith. You've represented your religion well.

Minnie - posted on 04/01/2011

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You'd have to look up the Hebrew for those verses. But the gist is that the beating is not literal beating, but that a Hebrew parent should immerse his children in the instruction of Torah day in and day out- his soul being the thing that is saved through that learning of Torah.



I don't think that they're necessarily lost in translation, just that the pastors who teach these verses to their congregations learned the interpretation from other western-minded thinkers from western-minded theological seminaries, and that the King James Bible was interpreted by western-minded scholars. And it is western-minded parents who attend these western churches who now think they have the right to switch their children with a rod.



Ask the interpretation from a rabbi and you'll likely get a different answer regarding these verses. :).



It IS scary, Jennifer. Not three years ago I also was a blind sheep following a congregation that preached hitting of children with implements. I don't know what grabbed ahold of us but all of a sudden it dawned on us and we were horrified. We high-tailed it out of there. Scary to think of what our family would be like right now if we had not. I was fully immersed in Michael Pearl theology.

Jenni - posted on 04/01/2011

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I completely agree. I, as an athiest, have no issues with the religion itself. I have issues with the religious who pervert, distort, bend or follow other men blindly. The religion itself isn't 'bad' it's what men have done with it. The true message behind Christianity, I can see... I understand it even if I'm not a part of it. If you look hard enough through all the translations and perversions it really is pure and righteous.



Yes, it is too bad it is overwhelmingly misrepresented.

Stifler's - posted on 04/01/2011

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This is called extremism. Just like suicide bombers have been convinced that what they're doing is all in the name of "Allah" by a sicko who has twisted Islam around to suit their own agenda. Now the whole world thinks Islam is a hateful religion and that all people who believe in any God are whack jobs. My mum was a Christian and the only bible verses she ever quoted in relation to discipline were:

Proverbs 22:6 Train a child in the way that he shall go and when he's older he will not depart from it.

Emily - posted on 04/01/2011

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Jennifer - You have hit the nail squarely on its head. That is the entire problem with "religion". I can't say anything of those who do not claim to follow God. They have no effect on how other view God and Christianity. However, when those who claim to be Christians follow men instead of God, or corrupt God's Word on their own, it has a serious detrimental effect on how all of society views God and Christianity.

In God's defense, if someone came and punched me in the nose, and said it was from you... did you REALLY punch me? Or was it just that the jerk who did the punching was also dishonest? I've found that when it comes to God, you can take MOST of what you see of "Christianity" and throw it out the window. Most Christians are NOT representing God. They are just claiming to. :(

Kate CP - posted on 04/01/2011

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Emily: Do you have anything NOT from the bible or a painfully religious source? You know, stuff like archaeological evidence showing the remains of sacrificed babies buried in foundations? Because all I'm seeing is the remains of babies who were already dead of natural causes who were buried within monastery walls.



There WERE child sacrifices. I don't doubt that, I KNOW that for a fact-there is scientific proof of it. But it was usually done by blood letting, NOT burning.



Forgive me for not believing the words of a book thats thousands of years old and has been translated hundreds of times. Yes, I want physical proof.

Jenni - posted on 04/01/2011

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Well I did agree in my OP that it was a staff used to guide sheep not whack them. After reading the entire passage Katherine put up... it sure sounds like they were talking about physical punishment, especially the passages: "23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

So what you're saying Lisa is that those and other passages are lost in translation and highly up for interpretation?

Well, I don't really have to ask... I know that. That's exactly why we have narcisstic lunatics like Caminiti who use scripture to justify their crimes.



The scary thing is you ladies are the minority who have a good understanding of scripture and can critically analyze it. The majority are, no pun intended; blindly following sheep. Problem is they're not sheep being guided by God/Jesus they're blindly following other men who claim to have an understanding of scripture.

Emily - posted on 04/01/2011

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Kate - Before you call something BS, perhaps you should look it up.

“Under the debris, in this ‘High Place,’ Macalister found great number of jars containing the remains of children who had been sacrificed to Baal. The whole area proved to be a cemetery for new-born babes.

Another horrible practice was that they called ‘foundation sacrifices.’ When a house was built, a child would be sacrificed, and its body built into the wall, to bring good luck to the rest of the family. Many of these were found in Gezer. They have been found also at Megiddo, Jericho and other places.”

SOURCE: Halley’s Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley; Joshua, Chapters 23,24, pg. 166; 1965 Edition

Both of those things, and a number of other horrid things, are also mentioned in the bible, but I don't get the impression that would mean anything to you. This is not the only source I found, only the most convenient. If you require more to believe it, I will be happy to provide them.

By the way, according to Josephus, an historian of the time, about the only thing that he noted horrified anyone, was the case of one woman roasting her own child and eating him - and refusing to share the meal with others.

Casey - posted on 04/01/2011

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Thats terrible, what a bunch of wack jobs, I can't believe any parent would agree to letting some psycho beat their baby, i think these children and babies need to be removed from these homes cause it's quite obvious that all the people involved in this are completely nuts and don't have the mental capacity to care for a child.

Vegemite - posted on 04/01/2011

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So what happened to "suffer little children"

Matthew 19:13-15 "Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. 15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there."



Referring to "spare the rod spoil the child",it is just a saying and is used in a poem as well. It comes from Proverbs 13:24 "He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly." and some other scriptures that have already been quoted on this thread. I think we should take this as meaning to discipline your children. Thank you Lisa the rod then was use as guidance, mostly shepherds, not to hit.

I don't understand why people take the old testament literally it's full of stories that we might learn those lessons that others had to the hard way. Jesus came to free us from sin and the oppression of law. The only "law" now is love and hopefully if we live in love we will be mindful of how we treat others. Yes we are human and will mess up sometimes and that's what forgiveness is for, to forgive and be forgiven are great things.

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F***k that religion sh**.

Please excuse my language..im sorry.

Boils my blood.

Lock those sort of monsters up.They deserve it.There are no excuses in my opinion.You never hurt children.Full stop.

Do i think its okay to punish babies this way?

I do not, its child abuse.Its sick.

Jenni - posted on 04/01/2011

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Ok but I'm looking at it through a non-believers point of view. As in I don't think the Bible was influenced by any God. So considering the 'violence' of the time. The Hebrew were no different from other cultures of the time. Had themselves a violent history, executed harsh punishments on adults. It is highly probable that they also used physical force to discipline their children. So although the reference to the 'rod' is vague in western eyes. They were probably very likely referring to physical force. I doubt they issued time outs back in those days.



But for Christians who do take the reference to literally mean they must 'beat' or 'spank' their children. I would think that when God sent his Son to show forgiveness, passiveness and guidence that he expected his people to follow the same example as his Son. Who would be more likely to guide than to punish. I think Emily pointed out that Jesus was sappose to be the example for men on earth to follow. I told her I liked that explanation. ;)



Man, I like Jesus. It's that Old Testament that seems to mess everyone up.

Veronique - posted on 04/01/2011

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WHAT!!!!!!! Omg that is really sick. I'm really speechless. All i can say is i hope this people rot in hell. Sorry but my stomach is all upset after reading this.

Minnie - posted on 04/01/2011

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I'm sure that random people did. But that's not how the verses are interpreted. In Exodus it's mentioned that a rod can kill a person. It wouldn't be used on a child. The rod was a 6 ft pole. Not a switching stick or wooden spoon.

People really can't read the Bible in the straight English through a western mindset and expect to understand it.

Krista - posted on 04/01/2011

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I think the moral of the story is that a) people are fucked up and b) people have been screwing over those weaker than them, in the name of religion, for a very long time.

Jenni - posted on 04/01/2011

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Well they believed in stoning, strangulation, burning... how far fetched would it be that they used a staff/rod to beat their children. I'm quite certain they did.



Edit to add: I never said he was sacrificed. ;)

Minnie - posted on 04/01/2011

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In an obedience to God- but he himself acknowledged that God would provide a sufficient sacrifice- and he did, in the form of a ram. It wasn't a common occurance, hebrews routinely sacrificing their children- and Isaac was -not- sacrificed.

Jenni - posted on 04/01/2011

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Well I'm not sure about that one either. But Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his son.

Minnie - posted on 04/01/2011

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Regardless of what the people -did- one should be looking at the hebrew and how an oriental culture as a people viewed the concept of the rod. Not their hang-ups.

Kate CP - posted on 04/01/2011

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I'm not arguing that other cultures did it...I'm arguing that ancient Hebrews burned babies and pitched them into foundations for luck.

Kate CP - posted on 04/01/2011

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I'm not arguing that other cultures did it...I'm arguing that ancient Hebrews burned babies and pitched them into foundations for luck.

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