Continuing the closed minded conversation

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012 ( 72 moms have responded )

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I shared my personal feelings (which included my beliefs/faith) in a conversation about closed mindedness. I then had several people (mostly atheists) get very aggrivated because they assumed that I was trying to *convert* them simply because I shared my opinions. I was even encouraged to share my feelings for variety, yet many individuals seemed pretty frustrated with me. This alone screams CLOSED MINDED! Any feelings?

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Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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Usually when people are told that you feel sad for them because of their beliefs and values, they are likely to take that as an insult. That is not really debating, it is a personal attack.



I have personal feelings about many things that I keep to myself, even in an open debate community, because to do otherwise would be perceived as a personal insult. I have made that mistake in that past. I learned that it doesn't really lead to informative debate, learning and growth.



As well, if people don't like your opinions and find then frustrating, that is not closed minded. It would be closed minded if they were unwilling to even listen and try to understand. You can not expect people to like everything you think and believe. An open mind is not just one that changes depending on who they are talking to, it is one that really listens to whom they are talking.

[deleted account]

***MOD NOTICE***



I am locking this thread as it is no longer constructive, any threads of this nature started in the near future will be locked/ deleted without warning, this subject has been exhausted for the time being.



Thank you for your co-operation



Toni M

DM Mod

Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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I am not coming here to bash your faith. In fact, if you look back I have done quite the opposite. I have stated that I am happy for you and that it seems that you have a very strong faith. I'm not sure how that amounts to bashing it.



All I actually have been trying to point out is that I do not wish to be bashed for my beliefs. I have no problem understanding that your faith is your truth. That is the case for almost all people of faith. What I am trying to argue here is that we all have our own truths. And it is okay that they aren't all the same.



I am not shocked by you. Quite the contrary. I have encountered plenty of people who argue the supremacy of their faith for all just as you do. About once or twice a year, some of them even come and knock on my door.



I do not think that my "life choices" are wrong nor do I feel any regret. As I mentioned earlier, I have been very fortunate. And I also think I have made good decision/choices along the way. My happiness and contentment comes from a combination of these two things. I have a wonderful family, parents, husband, child, and many amazing friends. I live a life of fulfillment for the most part (my commute is a bit of a drag).



But I am an agnostic atheist. For me, that means I do not feel that it is possible for me to KNOW the answer to our existence. I am perfectly fine with not knowing. In fact, I enjoy the mystery and the possibilities. I am interested in knowing the evidence that is available to me at this time, but I am aware the ultimate answers are not contained within. And like I said before, my moral code is predicated on doing no harm.



If you wish to call not knowing "confusion", that's fine. But my experience is not one of confusion.

Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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If I was unhappy with my life, saddled by my beliefs, and struggling, then I could understand you being sad for me. But I love my life, I am very fortunate and content. I have no fear of "eternity", in fact I am completely comfortable with the idea that one day my existence will end. So I feel that you are sad that I am not like you for you, rather than that you have any legitimate concern or care for me. So it's really just an insult.

Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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The truth is Jenny, I don't like religion at all. It does some good, but overall, I think it is quite insidious. However, if it has brought you happiness and a sense of peace, then I am truly happy for you . It does not make me sad when other people find their bliss and their passion. If you were being made miserable by it, that would sadden me. But you seem to take joy in your faith, so I think that is fantastic. I don't need you to be like me for me to be happy for you.

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Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Ok maybe it is not closed...but just a note...please only post if you are interested in what is going on here... Johnny, I found that to be helpful.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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and just for the record Jaime, if you can't see that this is simply where the conversation ended up, then I don't know what to tell you. I have tried to understand other peoples perspectives, but I also just let this conversation play out and this is what came of it. Like someone asked earlier, did you want me to feel wrong about my choices so I can be more susceptible to encouagement? I aknowledged many times I didn't expect anyone to do that; and I don't feel like I played the victim, just debated my personal view point.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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For some reason this goofy web site has been messing up and it is not allowing me to open the options to close this thread. Consider it closed though...

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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I am not *trying* to do anything really. But yes this is all pretty silly so we are done now.

[deleted account]

don't categorize me as an Atheist just because I am not a Christian. i don't identify with Christians because the majority of them that i know do the same thing you are doing with this playing the victim crap and being hypocritical by saying we non-Christians should see it from your perspective but you refuse to see it from ours, as you are so clearly doing since you can't seem to understand our idea that every person is different and not everyone feels so obligated to "encourage" everyone else toward their personal views. if that's not clear enough it's not worth trying anymore.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Don't catagorize Christians just because you don't understand me personally Jaime...are all you atheists the same? Cuz I got a different opinion than that. Some of you were pretty nice and others not so much...this is just a conversation more than a debate...

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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All I have to say before I go to bed is I took my 3 yr. old daughter to see The Lorax tonight and it was a great movie :)...just so you know...lol!

[deleted account]

wait, who said anything about being shocked? and i totally agree with Johnny's post, "Two of my pet peeves is when someone either plays the victim card or suggests that there is no point to the debate. If there is no point, then stop posting."

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Yeah, I agree...I have to go to bed and I will have to see if this goes anywhere. If not it will be closed tomorrow. I am not sure what I even expected to get out of this honestly...

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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Who is shocked? Where did you get that we were shocked? I've been on this debating board for 2 years... nothing shocks me anymore. lol



It's not the first time I've been "encouraged" to conform. Anyways.... I'm lost... I have no idea what this debate is suppose to be about any more. A hundred different tangents and all of them circular.

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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Do you want her to feel wrong in her life choices so she is more susceptible to "encouragement"?

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenni, I understand that, but what I don't understand is how you are all so shocked that a person would feel that way. Of course I feel my faith is right for everyone but also fully understand that a minority will actually embrace it. I am not even remotely shocked that you all don't...

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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And some people think their way is right for everyone else. While others do not.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Johnny, just out of curiosity too, do you personally think that *you* are wrong about your life choices, or are you just so confused that you come here to find meaning to life or what? Usually people do think they are right, even if they are not. Why are you so shocked by me?

[deleted account]

"The turn or burn argument was my first stepping stone towards Atheism. Just sayin"



I'll never understand that. I really won't. How do you overcome the immoral concept that it is 'ok' to torture someone eternally for a finite crime which really amounts to nothing more than a difference of opinion? (rhetorical, not aimed at you personally.)

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenni, as a Christian, I understand that we don't actually have more choices than that, but I understand why it is the way it is and that God is not some uncaring, tortuous being....believe it or not...I really don't want to get into that on this particular thread at the moment.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Johnny, I do believe that I *know* those things. Otherwise why would I bother believing them. I am very proud of that too! So, I just have a question...do you REALLY want to hear my point of view on things to understand, or do you just want to bash me and my faith because you can't possible fathom why I would claim that my faith is my truth?

Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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No, I have stated that you want everyone to believe the same way as you. And I am under that impression because you have said that you wish we all held the same beliefs on several occasions in both threads. You have also stated that you KNOW your God exists and you KNOW your religion is correct. Those statements have given me the impression that you think you are right about the meaning of life and that everything would be best if we would all see that your beliefs would be correct for us too.



If I am incorrect, and I think from reading the posts of other debaters here they have the same impression, then I would advise you to utilize the terms, "in my opinion" and "from my perspective" more frequently.

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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Go ahead Jenny, how do you explain that according to your religion, a person has more of a choice than believing in your god or going to hell.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Johnny, you basically implied that I called you stupid, and that I make comments that are demeaning and insulting and that I don't care about you, and you are not willing to put yourself in my shoes because blah, blah, blah...I don't think that is *debating*, and yes it seemed mean spirited.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenni, I was just saying that if you ever actually want to understand that subject for one reason or another, you can talk to me. I don't expect you to, but was trying to be nice...

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Johnny, I am ok with debating but I am pretty sure it was all of you that made it clear to keep it clean and not accuse basically. You said that I just try to be right...certainly don't want to be wrong, but I am human and don't think I am the only one that is right. Just trying to debate from my point, then get told that I am trying to be right about everything...so confused.

Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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I am frustrated Jenny. Like I said, I have been here a long time and been through a lot of debates. Two of my pet peeves is when someone either plays the victim card or suggests that there is no point to the debate. If there is no point, then stop posting.



So your last two posts, you started with the "no point to the debate" line and moved on to the victim card about how I am supposedly being meanspirited (please elaborate on that because I am not sure how). So yes, I am frustrated.



If we are not going to discuss are feelings on closed-mindedness and differences, then why don't you lock the thread and let it die. It's all yours.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenni, ok, I just said if you ever want encouragement...:)

I am not afraid to admit that I struggle with the things of this world from time to time.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Johnny...Ok, but I just don't know what you want me to say? For the first time in all the posts, I think some of the things you said in that last one were by far the most mean spirited I have heard yet. Are we trying to start an arguement or hurt eachothers feelings because I have no interest. I like debating too but some of this just gets silly...

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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Oh no Jenny, I am not "struggling". lol



I said it was the first stepping stone.

Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenny, I have been enjoying debating in this community for about 3 years now. I am here for fun, I do not take conversations on C|OM seriously or to heart, except when I read one of those horrible posts by a mother who is clearly cruel or abusive to her children. That is the only time it makes me miserable. I am having fun with this while watching Top Chef with my hubby and debating him on who should win. That's me, I love to debate. If I was emotional about this, I would walk away.



It seems every time you can't think of a good rebuttal or don't want to bother to read someone's posts, you play the "you are taking this wrong, you don't get me, you are too stubborn, agree to disagree" card. I want to debate this issue. I am not going to agree with you on this issue, but that is why it is a debate. If I suddenly agreed with you, there would be no point in bothering with the debate.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Johnny, you are taking this all wrong. I am very sorry for that. Don't make yourself miserable...you don't have to read what I say. I thought I was being totally respectful but you are just not getting me and it does not seem like you want to. That is fine. Agree to disagree I guess.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenni, it definitly souds harsh and that is the one area I personally struggled with in the past. I now understand a lot more about that subject, and it is very complicated yet very simple. I don't want to push any ideas on you but if you ever want encouragement in that area, you know where to find me. It's not as terrible as it seems when you understand ;o)

Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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And by the way, "I'm sorry that you are an atheist" sounds sort of like "I'm sorry that you are ugly" or "I'm sorry that you are a moron." I am sorry that you are not equal to me.

Johnny - posted on 03/06/2012

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I understand that you think you hold the "secret" to existence in your faith. If you didn't, you wouldn't believe it. But it is YOUR existence you should concern yourself with. We are all at our best when we watch our own behavior and care for other's feelings.



Let me turn this around for you for a minute. You want me to imagine that I share your beliefs. But you see, I can not. The amount of suspension of reality that it would require for me to do that is beyond my ability. I am no more able to understand how you can believe in Christianity so fully than you can understand why I don't. Do you think you would be able to pretend that you did not believe in God and actually really feel what that would mean? I must express doubt, because if I can complement you for anything, I would say that your faith seems too deep and strong to suspend it for even just a moment.



You know, perhaps it is the way that you phrase things that makes your comments seem so demeaning and insulting. You finish off your last post to me with, "it is really not that complicated to understand...I say that nicely...not rudely" And I just can't imagine how someone could take that nicely, given that it is generally meant to suggest that I'm too stupid to understand you.



If I thought you cared about my well-being and eternal soul, I might take it more with a grain of salt. But I have the strong impression that you are more about being right and everyone else being wrong. That the world would be a perfect place if everyone could just understand that Jenny Deuel was right about everything.

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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Turn Christian or burn in Hell... doesn't give a person much choice, does it?



You either believe in the Christian god or suffer eternal Hades, I mean... hell fire.



I guess a fair comparison would be a man holding a gun to my head and saying marry me or die. IF there was some omnipotent, enlightened higher power who loves us all so deeply he wouldn't give us the option of a relationship with him or death, essentially.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jaime, this is why I like this thread...because we can take this conversation wherever it wants to end up ;o)



Jenni, by turn or burn are you referring to Heaven and Hell?

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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In my idea of a perfect world. We learn to co-exist despite differing theological beliefs. Not that we all believe the same thing.

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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The turn or burn argument was my first stepping stone towards Atheism. Just sayin.

[deleted account]

Most people just don't like being pitied. You're the first person I know who has said they wouldn't be offended. Also, not everyone is so passionate about their beliefs. Everyone is different, it's a fact of life.



Also my main reason for getting irritable was because, as I stated soooo many times, it was derailing the thread. People were more interested debating the religious aspect than the actual topic.



As many had said before me, your beliefs were welcome if they pertained to the topic. As for the closed-mindedness, I agree with Johnny. It's not being closed-minded to listen to others' opinions and debate them. A debate does not necessarily mean everyone is arguing about a subject. It is supposed to be a discussion of viewpoints, and you just happened to be the minority. That happens in this community. I understand you feeling attacked because of that, because it has happened with everyone in this community at some point or another, but believe me, it would have been much worse than what went down if you were TRULY being attacked. When I first joined this community, people were throwing insults left and right. REAL insults, personal attacks of name-calling and telling them they weren't good parents and all this other crap. You got lucky. The majority of the people who posted on my thread don't do that.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenni, trust me, I know. I am just saying in a perfect world, but we are far from that.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Johnny, if you feel that is an insult, that is your choice. All I am saying is that I don't think it is shocking that I would be sad if I have a totally different revelation than what you do. Put yourself in my shoes and just pretent for one second that you knew that after life on earth, believers of Jesus go to eternity in Heaven and non-believers don't. That would be very strange if you were not sad for atheists. I am not asking for you to agree but it is really not that complicated to understand...I say that nicely...not rudely :)

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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Sounds a little too communistic to me.



It's human nature, nature... to compete. If it weren't based on our beliefs or (theological beliefs) it would be something else. Our culture, our race, our gender, our hair colour, our personality... it is instinctual for social animals to compete against other groups/communities. Social animals (like humans) are ingrained to war against outside groups.



I'd like to think we are becoming more civilized and learning to co-exist for the good of the human race, rather than the good of the social groups (ie: Christians, Muslims, Americans, Asians, etc) we align ourselves with.

As all opting to believe the same thing isn't exactly an option or an attainable reality.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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I think it would be a rather boring world if we all had the same personalities, but a rather *peaceful* world if we all shared the same beliefs...a lot less...debate-ish...haha! ;o) wink, wink

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