Cornell & Female circumcision

Sharon - posted on 06/17/2010 ( 51 moms have responded )

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What ever you want to call it.

I know I was pro symbolic ritual nick but this is WAY beyond that & its being done here in the US

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive...

Female Genital Mutilation at Cornell University
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:15 PM
While the whole world was debating the American Academy of Pediatrics' position on "female genital cutting"—the AAP was against it before they were for it, and now, after an outcry, they're against it again—Alice Dreger and Ellen Feder have been raising the alarm about "medical research" currently being conducted at Cornell University. A pediatric urologist at Cornell—Dix Poppas—has been operating on little girls with what he judges to be oversized clitorises, cutting away important clitoral tissues, and then stitching the glans to what remains of the shaft. Poppas claims that, unlike past clitoral-reduction procedures, his procedure is "nerve sparing."

First big problem: "nerve-sparing" surgeries don't always work. And the chunks of these girls' clitorises that the doctor is cutting away—large pieces of their clitoral shafts—may be just as important as the clitoral glans. Dreger:


To shorten these clitorises, Poppas is saving the glans (tip) but cutting out parts of the shaft. Bo Laurent has pointed out that Masters and Johnsons showed that many women masturbate by rubbing the shafts of their clitorises. (Think about it: the clit is the homologue of the penis. How do men masturbate?) Many women seem to find their clitoral glans almost too sensitive. Poppas's patients are loosing the option of touching parts of their shafts, because he's throwing them out (after the cut-away parts have been sent to pathology to see if he accidentally took out a nerve).
There's lots to be outraged about here: there's nothing wrong with these girls and their healthy, functional-if-larger-than-average clitorises; there's no need to operate on these girls; and surgically altering a girl's clitoris because it's "too big" has been found to do lasting physical and psychological harm. But what's most outrageous is how Poppas is "proving" that his surgery "spares nerves." Dreger and Feder:


But we are not writing today to again bring attention to the surgeries themselves. Rather, we are writing to express our shock and concern over the follow-up examination techniques described in the 2007 article by Yang, Felsen, and Poppas. Indeed, when a colleague first alerted us to these follow-up exams—which involve Poppas stimulating the girls’ clitorises with vibrators while the girls, aged six and older, are conscious—we were so stunned that we did not believe it until we looked up his publications ourselves.

Here more specifically is, apparently, what is happening: At annual visits after the surgery, while a parent watches, Poppas touches the daughter’s surgically shortened clitoris with a cotton-tip applicator and/or with a “vibratory device,” and the girl is asked to report to Poppas how strongly she feels him touching her clitoris. Using the vibrator, he also touches her on her inner thigh, her labia minora, and the introitus of her vagina, asking her to report, on a scale of 0 (no sensation) to 5 (maximum), how strongly she feels the touch.... Poppas has indicated in this article and elsewhere that ideally he seeks to conduct annual exams with these girls....

Although we have tried, we have been unable to locate any other pediatric urologist who uses these techniques. Indeed, we doubt many would, because we think most would—as we do—find this technique to be impossible to justify as being in these girls’ best interests. We understand that these tests might produce generalized knowledge that shows whether Poppas’s techniques are better than some other surgeons’, but it isn’t clear to us how this kind of genital touching post-operatively is in individual patients’ best interests. If the testing shows a girl has lost sensation through the surgery, her lost clitoral tissue cannot be put back. However, the tests would seem to expose the girls to significant risk of psychological harm.

In the course of our inquiries, made in preparation for this publication, nearly all clinicians to whom we described Poppas’s “clitoral sensory testing and vibratory sensory testing” practices thought them so outrageous that they told us we must have the facts wrong. When we showed them the 2007 article, their disbelief ceased, but they then seemed to become as agitated as we were. At an international conference two weeks ago, when Dreger told Ken Zucker, a psychologist at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto and member of the clinical establishment, about this, Zucker said that we could quote him as saying this: “Applying a vibrator to a six-year-old girl’s surgically feminized clitoris is developmentally inappropriate.” We couldn’t find a clinician who disagreed with Zucker.

Yang, Felsen, and Poppas describe the girls “sensory tested” as being older than five. They are, therefore, old enough to remember being asked to lie back, be touched with the vibrator, and report on whether they can still feel sensation. They may also be able to remember their emotions and the physical sensations they experienced. Their parents’ participation may also figure in these memories. We think therefore that most reasonable people will agree with Zucker that Poppas’s techniques are “developmentally inappropriate.”

The 2007 article documenting Poppas's research is here.

Now more from Dreger's post at Psychology Today:


So why the heck do Poppas and other surgeons do these surgeries? They believe it is necessary to ensure "normal" sexual development.... Many of us happen to think "normal" sexual development is actually likely to be thwarted by having parts of your genitals taken away without your consent, and thwarted by follow-up exams like the ones we are describing. Ellen and I have gotten to know hundreds of adults born with sex anomalies who went through these medical scenes growing up. Many have told us that the genital displays involved in the follow-up exams were more traumatic than any other part of the experience. Indeed, when I once asked a group of women with androgen insensitivity syndrome what they wanted me to work on primarily in my advocacy work, they said stopping the exams, particularly those in which med students, residents, and fellows parade through to check out the surgeon's handiwork.
There's so much to be angry about I hardly know where to start. Applying a vibrator a girl's clitoris after it's been surgically shortened may demonstrate that she still has "sensation" in what's been left behind—that she still has a few nerve endings that function—but that's not proof that she hasn't been physically or emotionally harmed by the surgery and those traumatic follow-up "procedures." These post-op visits with the doctor and his vibrator do the girls no good—what can the doctor do if a girl reports no sensation? reassemble her clit?—and retaining sensation isn't proof that these girls will grow up to be healthy, sexually functional adults. All of the tissues that make up the clitoris—the glans, the stem, the erectile tissues—are important to sexual response, orgasm, and fulfillment, not just the part of the clitoris that's "normally" exposed.

There's another disturbing reason this surgery is being performed: girls with large clitorises are more likely to identify as lesbians when they grow up. Needless to say (or maybe not-so-needless): carving up a girl's clitoris does nothing to change the underlying hormonal and genetic factors that contribute to lesbian orientation and identity. Big clits don't make lesbians—lesbians sometimes make big clits. These surgeries are partly motivated by out-and-out homophobia, by the belief that "fixing" a large clit somehow prevents lesbianism. (Larger penises correlate positively with gayness in males but no one is out there shortening boys' penises.)

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It's disgusting and depraved. My personal opinion however is that objecting the the removal of heathy female sexual tissue is hypocritical if you do not also object to the removal of healthy male sexual tissue but that's me. Mileage may vary.

Jaime - posted on 06/18/2010

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I maintain my stance that "if it ain't broke don't effing touch it!". If a clitoris is "abnormally" large well then props to the female that gets to experience that sensation. There is absolutely no reason to be altering sex organs on a child--there are no medical benefits, there are no more health benefits than to leave things intact, there is no social stigma...it's complete bullshit. If I'm in the locker room changing and someone is making fun of my clitoris they are too effing close and need to back the hell up! Just sayin'

What in the hell possesses parents to agree to such a thing? "First I'm going to shave the shafts of your daughters clit, but don't worry I'm sparing the nerves so that afterward we can sit in my office, have coffee and stimulate her to see if it all worked....kay?" How about honk on bobo buddy!

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I sadly saw similar pictures in question years ago and no, I don't remember how I got there but I washed my eyes with bleach for days.

[deleted account]

Lisa your doing the right thing...Be strong. Once it has been seen you will never be able to un see it!

Jaime - posted on 06/20/2010

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LOL...be strong Lisa...we made the sacrifice---SAVE YOURSELF THE TRAUMA!



Let's just put it this way...it goes FAR beyond kinky sex!

Sharon - posted on 06/19/2010

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LMAO Shannen you are CRUEL!! But get the webcam on him so we can all see what happens!!

[deleted account]

OMG Sharon when you mentioned it my curiosity got the better of me. But i am going to show my hubby when he gets home i want to see his reaction.......BTW i wanna puke that was horrible :(

Lea - posted on 06/19/2010

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OMG OMG OMG WHAT WHAT... where is the police what the hell do these parents think they are doing ...you know its funny I bet the parents are thinking they are helping their daughter not be a freak when she probably isn't in the first place and so they go and allow her to be traumatized like this. I don't care what my daughter's stuff looked like I would never have this done until well into her teen years and it would have to be her idea and she would have to be fully informed about everything involved in the procedure. Whatever doctor is doing this is obviously a molester and should be arrested.

Krista - posted on 06/19/2010

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Don't do it, Lisa!!! Some things, once seen, can never be un-seen!

Sharon - posted on 06/19/2010

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I'm trying to decide if I want to answer this or if you just need to suffer like the rest of us, lol.

*Lisa* - posted on 06/19/2010

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Ok, what is it??!! I don't want to look but I still am curious to know what the heck it is!!

Sharon - posted on 06/19/2010

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ROTFL!! Omg you guys are soo cruel to even describe it to the men in your lives!!! lmao awwww!!! I'm dyin' here.

Iris - posted on 06/19/2010

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OMFG Sharon!! I'm just too curious not to look and now I'm traumatized...
ROFL! Loureen, Dennis did NOT want to see it after I told him about it, he just turned white for a while and walked away.

C. - posted on 06/19/2010

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I've heard about it before. It's sad.



Edited to add:



Should really read latest posts before answering. I'm glad I'm not in my curious mood right now..

Charlie - posted on 06/19/2010

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Hahaha Jamie is walking around in the kitchen muttering " you dirty , dirty women " ROTFL

Charlie - posted on 06/19/2010

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HOLY SHIT , THAT IS FUCKING SCARY !!!

I actually didnt know that was possible LOL.

*Lisa* - posted on 06/18/2010

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Gosh I am really restraining the temptation to see what you guys are talking about! Must not look!!! Might go eat something to distract myself!

Sharon - posted on 06/18/2010

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OOHHHH I had to really restrain myself from showing that to my husband. I think he would just vomit and possibly straight up collpse at seeing it. considering how sensitive he is... oh good lord...

Jaime - posted on 06/18/2010

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LMAO! Good thing I don't have a weak stomach...but fuck me that's some crazy shit! I just can't wrap my brain around that being anywhere in the vicinity of enjoyable. Every time it flashes in my mind I get shudders...((shudder)) ((shudder))

Sharon - posted on 06/18/2010

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lmao omg jaime.. awwwww i feel for you, I didn't feel right or clean for DAYS

Jaime - posted on 06/18/2010

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Uh...ya, definitely didn't need to see that...holy fucking shit is right!

Sharon - posted on 06/18/2010

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Thanks to an awkward post on my wall a few years ago... been there, done that... fyi - you may not want to look up the phrase "two kids 1 sandbox" holy fucking shit.. its on par with "two girls 1 cup"

Sharon - posted on 06/18/2010

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awkward head bobbing here... I never knew women could have oversized clits for one, so geeze what an eye opener, lol, and i didn't want post fake stuff here so I felt an obligation to double check stuff. lol.

Jaime - posted on 06/18/2010

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LMAO...now that's dedication Sharon. Thanks for takin' one for the team! I can understand if a grown female makes a conscious decision to reduce the size of her clit...but that's the difference...it's her choice to make. Just really irks me that these "experiments" are being done to small children that really have no concept of 'abnormal' or 'violation' as this situation implies. Fuck sakes!

Sharon - posted on 06/18/2010

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lol Sarah - thank god the kids weren't in the house!!!! I kept looking over my shoulder anyway!

Sharon - posted on 06/18/2010

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I did several searches to try and figure out if this was some elaborate hoax and found nothing. Then I did a search about large clit issues and after wading through pages and fucking pages of porn and looking at one video - i've come to the conclusion of 'omg they can get THAT big?" but i see no dysfunction and all the search descriptions I read on the porno sites - these girls were fucking dudes so lesbianism based on clit size seems out.

Oh the ONE video I looked at... this chicks' clit was bigger than my thumb, not as long as, I think... uncomfortable viewing

Krista - posted on 06/18/2010

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What in the hell is wrong with these parents that they would consent to this?!?!

Ez - posted on 06/18/2010

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^^ what Jaime-Leigh said.

I wish people would learn to leave other people's genitals the fuck alone.

Lucy - posted on 06/18/2010

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Unbelievable! I had to read this several times to see if I was getting something wrong about what this guy is doing- But no, it seems he really is mutilating girls with their parent's consent, traumatic enough in the long run, and then continuing to mould their sexual development to his own whims by abusing them in front of the parents on a regular basis throughout their childhood!

What planet are these parents on?!

Amie - posted on 06/17/2010

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You know it's bad enough that there are parents that willingly signed over their daughters for this surgery.



But to allow the post op "sensory testing" to go on? With knowledge of what it is?!! WTF!!!!!

*Lisa* - posted on 06/17/2010

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OH MY GOSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No words right now for how WRONG that is!!!

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