Debate? Statement of fact? Bible Based Mariage

JuLeah - posted on 08/23/2011 ( 113 moms have responded )

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Gettin' tired really of being told that the God of my understanding HATES me for my CHOICE to be gay.

Found following and it made me laugh:

Betty Bowers, comedian, put together a speech about Traditional Bible Based Marriage in support of NY and their efforts to ‘get it right’

Traditional Bible Based Marriage:

Gen 4:1 Adam and Eve had two sons. Additional children came after Eve seduced Cain.

So, a Traditional Bible Based Marriage is one man, one woman, and the son she seduces after he has killed his only brother.

Gen 16:3 Abraham married his sister Sarah and also married their maid.

So, a Traditional Bible Based Marriage is one man, his sister, and the help.

Deut 22:28 – 29 When a man rapes an unmarried virgin, the punishment is marriage.

So, a Traditional Bible Based Marriage is a rape victim and her rapist.

Gen 19:26 God turned Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt.

So, a Traditional Bible Based Marriage is between one man and a kitchen condiment

Judges 21:7 – 23 “Go and smite the inhabitants with the edge of the sword, with women and the children.” “You shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by men.” “And they found among the inhabitants four hundreds young virgins.”

So, a Traditional Bible Based Marriage is between one man, and a gal he’s kidnapped and raped after the slaughter of her brother, mother and father.

In the bible, it’s not rape if the man says, “I do”

1 Chronicles 3:1-9 David had eight wives, but never got around the tallying his number of concubines.

2 Samuel 16:21 “Lie with your father’s concubines whom he left to take care of the palace.”

1 Kings 11:1 “King Solomon loved many strange women.”“And he had seven hundred wives, and three hundred concubines.”

So, a Traditional Bible Based Marriage is between one man, one woman, another woman, another woman, and a whole mess of concubines.

Bible Based Marriages are very convenient.

1 Chronicles 2:34 Now Sheshan has no sons, but daughters. And Sheshan had a slave, an Egyptian, who name was Jarha.

1 Chronicles 2:35 And Sheshan gave his daughter to Jarha to wife; and she bare him Attai.

So, a Traditional Bible Based Marriage is between one man, Daddy’s little girl, and the slave Daddy hired to rape her.

To recap: a Traditional Bible Based Marriage is between one man, his wife, a kitchen condiment, his daughter, the man he hired to rape her, his concubines, the woman he kidnaps, and the son who murdered his brother.

BUT, it is not between one man and another man or between a two women because that is immoral ....

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JuLeah - posted on 08/24/2011

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Nikki ... it depends on the bible you read. Pick up ten bibles from ten different publishers from ten different years and you will get ten different bibles. The chore of translating an old language into a modern language is not an easy one. Each author, publisher ... makes a best guess and will translate words as they see fit. Some words we long ago lost the meaning of and everyone admits all we have is a best guess. Some publishers use the old word to make clear its true meaning has been lost.

When I go for bible study, we each bring our own bible. The leader will read a passage, we will all read the phrasing in our books (leading to very different meaning) and then we will read the ancient Hebrew, which changes our understanding yet again.

Bibles are translated for current audience and a bible published in 2011 will have different words, different concepts then a bible published in 1811

Never never never was this book meant to be taken literally

It is all metaphor

Even when it was first written, the stories were not new. They had been handing down orally for generations.

Of the thousands of stories to choose from, some were selected and some were not for the final version - every bible (Hebrew, Christian, Muslim) was canonized by people - humans making a choice about which stories they would include and which stories they would exclude - and they had a goal, a message, an audience they were attempting to reach
The Nicene Creed – for example

Not even the Ten Commandments are the same from one bible to the next ….

To ‘study’ the subject requires a lot more then reading one bible and rote memorization of passages …. You need to study the language each bible was originally written in, the audience it was written for, what was happening politically at the time, the culture of the people …. There is a reason people get doctoral degrees in religious studies

Karla - posted on 08/26/2011

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Nikki, though I agree the Cain and Eve thing was completely wrong and confusing (And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived,) I do want to address the premise of your defense.



” I resent the fact that non-believers attempt to pervert a lesson from the Old Testament in order to validate their way of life.”



I took the point of the OP this way; people will use the Bible to judge gay marriage, therefore it shall be scrutinized.



Did the OP attempt to pervert a lesson from the Old Testament more than biblical based anti-gay marriage rhetoric does?



Pointing out the obvious oddities of Bible Stories to make a point about unconventional marriage scenarios is not an attack on the Bible per se; it’s an attack on the idea that the Bible is a good source or foundation for defining marriage.



For the record and because I was curious about the Sodom and Gomorra claims I looked it up.



Here’s the passage in question:



5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. Genesis 19:5-8



Sorry, but it appears to me some nasty guys wanted to rape the men and Lot said, no, rape my daughters instead. Did I miss something in this passage? Is this the passage that is used to fight gay marriage?



I’ll use the same words and say: I resent the fact that believers attempt to pervert a lesson from the Old Testament in order to validate their agenda. And I believe that is basically all the OP is saying as well.

Jenni - posted on 08/24/2011

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It's a bit of a pot meet tea kettle scenerio.

If a book is going to be used to discount and slander a group of people. There are going to be people who discount and slander the book or that religion.

When highly subjective ancient text is used to prevent a group of people from living their lives as they see fit, impressing on their human rights and used to tell them that who they are isn't right or moral and that they are degenerates... that book and those who believe it will be subject to equal persecution and discredit.

I knew that this was a joke... that those passages were taken out of context. But when a group of people are forcing another group of people to live by what they believe... it's difficult not to be outraged and feel the need to add humour to it in order to cope with it.

Johnny - posted on 08/28/2011

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Of course, not all Christians believe the same things. I've noticed that there are as many interpretations of God's word from the bible as their are Christians. I always find it interesting that many Christians think that they have the right to judge one another by their own personal interpretation of the bible. There are plenty of Christians out there who do not think that God says homosexuality is a sin. I'm not sure how one Christian becomes the arbiter of what God says over another Christian.

Jenni - posted on 08/24/2011

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And for the record, I judge Christians on an individual basis. Just like I judge all people. I can seperate the people from their religion. What I do judge is the people who use their religion for pride, power, prejudice, arrogance, moral highground, scapegoats, ignorance, judgement, persecution and imposing their biblical laws onto others, infringing on their rights.... basically.... when it effects me personally and the people I love.

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Tina - posted on 10/14/2011

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I mean in God's eyes he know what's in a persons heart and whether or not a person is commited to another. Two people can married doesn't mean they love each other. I should know. I thought I was doing the right thing when I got married before I moved in with my partner. And I found out he had feelings for someone else he was dreaming about another woman. For years I was stuck in a loveless marriage I did all I could to make it work. He wouldn't support me in anything. A close relative of mine died he wouldn't go to the funeral. He said he would come with me to my mothers wedding after I'd booked the plane ticket he refused to go and the ticket was non refundable. When I decided enough was enough. He wouldn't leave me alone I had to change my number he said we were still married and I had to tell him where I was. And he got practically everything. I see what you mean I just don't think spiritually necessary. God knows what's in your heart.

Jennifer - posted on 10/14/2011

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Tina- That paper matters more than you think. It allows a dying person to have their spouse at their side. (Yes, gay couples have been denied access to their dying loved one because of no legal family connection) It also allows for a separation of property in the event a couple has been together for 10 years and one decides they want to leave the relationship or even in the case of death. It's a lot easier to walk away from a relationship without that piece of paper and leave a spouse financially devastated. It also gives a spouse the right to shared work benefits and health care. That paper means more than you would think.

Tina - posted on 10/13/2011

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Isn't a marriage simply 2 people commiting to each other. People celebrate their love for eachother in different ways. Why do you need a piece of paper to state you're commited it's what's in your heart that matters not what's on a piece of paper.

Jennifer - posted on 10/12/2011

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Just to be straight ( no pun intended) Sodom's sins are enumerated in Ezekiel 16:49, Luke 10:12 and Jude 7 as inhospitality, greed, pride, haughtiness, refusal to help the poor, and unspecified sexual immorality. (Take note that it is NOT likely that those about to rape the angels in Sodom were gay in their orientation. It says ".all the men from every part of the city, both young and old, surrounded the house." Note the word ALL... it is unlikely, even if at the time there was such a thing as gay orientation, that the entire city was gay. The only logical reason why an entire city would show up to have anal sex with some strangers would be to humiliate or even kill them thinking they were spies from another city. I believe that butt raping them would send a huge message to another town not to send any other spies. (it would also fall under the "unspecified sexual sins" category mentioned earlier) Sodom was a rich town and it would not be unheard of for another town to want to spy and look for weaknesses.

So many "Christians" cite Sodom and Gomorrah as the Pinnacle of proof that God hates gay people when in fact the whole incident had more to do with the towns attitude than their orientation. Had the town been more hospitable, loving and kind to others it is likely God would not have chosen to destroy it.

Amanda - posted on 10/12/2011

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Let me preface this by saying I am calling no one here a sinner, it's not for me to judge and I'm not perfect. God loves everyone regardless of their sin. He doesn't hate people but he does hate sin. That said, back in the days when all this was happening, people also sacrificed animals to atone for their sins but thanks to the new covenant and Jesus's sacrifice we don't have to do that anymore. There are many things that changed with the new covenant and it is likely that plural marriage became obsolete because of it. That's just my opinion and I am not an expert or trying to say that anything is wrong or right. BTW, in Genesis when God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt it was because she looked back on Sod'om and Go-mor'rah (which we destroyed because of the people's wicked ways and refusal to turn from such) after they we instructed not to.

Donna - posted on 10/03/2011

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yeah, hmm its ok god hates me and alot more ppl bc hey lets just face it a large number of us have had premaritial sex.

Tina - posted on 09/22/2011

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I'll say it simply tolerance works both ways that goes for religion, homosexuals and different nationalities.

JL - posted on 09/17/2011

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I just need to point out the fact that in the US we do not live under a government that is a pure Democracy. Our founding fathers created a government known as a Republic therefore we do not live under a majority rules system. Our presidential voting process does not even operate under a majority rules system it operates under the electoral college system. If you read the Federalist papers the founding fathers whose great minds created and developed the unique Republic which the US operates under they explained in detail the the positives as well as the negatives associated with pure Democracies. They looked to Greece the first major democracy and studied the history of how and why it fell from power. They saw that a majority ruled system was dangerous to it's citizens. Our founding fathers feared the majority usurping the rights of the minority so they built a type of government that insured that would not happen. We have a Republic which protects the basic civil and criminal rights of all citizens including the minority. If you want to live under a pure Democracy where the majority rules then look toward the former USSR that is an example of how a pure Democracy works.

Cheryl - posted on 09/17/2011

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The bible is filled with stories of people who fell short. They are an example of what not to do. They also show us that no one is perfect, saints and sinners alike all fall short, which is why we need a savior.

Morality is not related to salvation, because morality as described below is determined by the society in which one lives. Today we live in a society which is tolerant of homosexuality. So in today's society, homosexuality is not immoral but offending someone today is becoming more and more immoral.

mor•al

   [mawr-uhl, mor-] Show IPA

adjective

1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel.

3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.

4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.

5. conforming to the rules of right conduct ( opposed to immoral): a moral man.

There can often be huge difference between what is moral in the eyes of society and what is demanded by the Christian God in His bible.

According to Wikipedia, Marriage is usually recognized by the state, a religious authority, or both. It is often viewed as a contract. Civil marriage is the legal concept of marriage as a governmental institution irrespective of religious affiliation, in accordance with marriage laws of the jurisdiction.

Wikipedia has an interesting article on marriage. I may or may not accept their definition, however it includes a history or two of marriage.

If you have been called immoral in this country for being a homosexual, most likely the name callers are not knowledgeable of the differences between the norms of society and the demands of God. Jesus said to those who believe to pick the beam out of their own eye before trying to get the speck out of their neighbors eye.

You may have guessed, I am a Christian, and I believe, as Jesus said to the crowd who wanted to stone the adulteress, you who have no sin, throw the first stone. I can't throw any stones, because I'm not without sin.

Vegemite - posted on 09/05/2011

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haha i love how it's all old testament scripture. I also love how the fanatics will say "God hates gays" but ignore that they are instructed to love, above all other things even to the point of loving our enemy and can't understand that God hates no man.

JuLeah - posted on 09/04/2011

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God knew you from the womb therefore He knew you were gay before you did. He loves you just exactly the way He made you.

I LOVE that. I will be quoting you in the future.

Amazing .... never thought about it that way. The goal (for Christans) is to get people saved, and yes, does that away that chance for one who might wish to be Christan

And, I like too that I am part of God's plan to deal with over population - though I do have a child - very very wanted

Jennifer - posted on 09/04/2011

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I have studied the few times where same gender sexual activity is mentioned in the Bible. Let me tell you, HOMOSEXUALITY was NEVER mentioned in the Bible because there wasn't even a word for that sexuality in the original Hebrew and Greek languages. The same gender sexual acts that are mentioned refer to sex to humiliate a foe (Sodom and Gomorrah), Sex to worship a fertility god (Leviticus) and same gender sex for pay (New testament). None of these are about two people of the same gender wanting to have a loving monogamous relationship with each other (regardless of sexual activity) *having sex does not make a person gay or straight- the desire to be with one gender or the other for a lifelong helpmate relationship does*

God knew you from the womb therefore He knew you were gay before you did. He loves you just exactly the way He made you. If you look at relationships through the Bible, things have changed over the years. We believe that Adam and Eve had children and those children had children with each other. Obviously in the beginning it was ok for close relatives to procreate. I mean, the world did need to be populated. After some time when the world was populated, there were rules about not having sex with close family members. (The assumption is that since the world was populated well, it wasn't needed AND the genetic pool had become weak causing birth defects) So now, the rules have changed for mating. Many wives were still allowed because there was still some populating to do. However, eventually it was to be between one man and one woman and both were to be monogamous. I imagine the world was VERY populated by the time this came about. Since marriage rules have evolved according to population, the next logical place would be for same gender couples to be created. This completely stops unwanted pregnancies because the world is now becoming overpopulated. I believe this is all part of God's plan.

The Bible says "Judge not lest you be judged in the way you judge others".... I think that those people who say that gay people are going to hell will likely find themselves in hell. I say this because when they say this, they steal God's ultimate gift of salvation away from gay people. This is a gift to ALL people. How could God not punish someone for taking away His most precious gift of salvation?

JuLeah - posted on 09/02/2011

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I don't think people have been hate filled towards one another. I am not insulted or offended. To disagree is good. You can't know what you believe until you have to defend it.

I don't think the historical goal of most religion is to make you a better person. I think the historical goal of most religion is to make you a more obedient citizen and more compliant :)


I think a practiced spiritual life has the effect of making you more connected with who you are (a better person) but spiritual practice and religion are not always the same thing


"This whole debate is exactly why I am an atheist"... it seems like throwing the baby out with the bath really

It is suppose to be messy, and confusing. We are supposed to wrestle with this stuff. There are no easy answers. The word Israel means to wrestle with: we are asked to push the boundaries, to question, to doubt, to explore … the Torah is a living document – ever expanding as our knowledge and awareness expands, ever growing as we grow. Judaism is a living religion, also ever growing and expanding. I assume that is true for other religions.

Debate is an unofficial requirement of my faith 

Leigha - posted on 09/02/2011

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This whole debate is exactly why I am an atheist. There is nothing like religion to make people act this way towards one another.....or worse. It's supposed to make you a better person? As a whole, I think not.

JuLeah - posted on 09/01/2011

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Jennifer: Queer seems all inclusing to me. Gay, to quote Ellen, puts us under too much pressure. No one is happy all the time :) - Some don't like Lesbian, which I also don't mind ... we each pick our labels I guess.



My bible education, if you will, comes from many hours of study with the Rabbi (s). Many hours of debate with a family friend Father Michael, conversation with local minsters who gather to discuss such issues, college courses as an undergrad, PBS, and a long term friendship with a women who is a nun.



Anyway, I learned a bit different version of the history of the bible, but as my Rabbi says: We were not there, so we can't know. And, as for what happens after we pass, well no one has really been there, taken notes, and come back with a report, so we can't really know that.



What we can know, is now. What we have is now. So, she (My Rabbi) asks, how will you be your highest and best self now?



I like that

Jennifer - posted on 09/01/2011

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LOL, no one called me a redneck on here JuLeah, but it was discussed, I didn't really take offense, just wanted people to know that it could be offensive. And yes, I do know you did not write the article, sorry if I did not make that clear. Most of what I said about the post was directed at the writer, not you!



As to the story of Adam and Eve: I was taught for many years by a Jewish man. He spoke Hebrew and was utterly fascinating! Most of the old testament I know was taught by him, though I am a daily bible reader. He taught that Adam was made in the total image of God, and that God has both male and female characteristics. When God made Eve, he took the qualities of the 'female' and put them in Eve. Apparently the word for 'rib' means side, which could be taken to mean 'female side' but still better translates to rib. So, that brought up, why do we call God 'he'? Well, cause that is what He calls Himself!



As to the bible changing with all the translations. Until Martin Luther translated it and gave it to the general public, it was mainly untouched, the monks transcribed the bible in monastaries, mostly in the original Hebrew and Greek, and then in Latin, which the priest used in the church. The reason for the protestant and Catholic split was due to the fact that Catholic clegry thought "common folk" to be too ignorant to read and decide for themselves. Martin Luther had been a monk, and he thought everyone needed to read the bible, so he turned copies loose. That has been fairly recent history. One of the first translations was the King James, which is still availible. Two translations from the original is not bad. My science book is updated about every two years, thinking it may have more faults:) All the 'newer' translations are meant to make it easier for people to read, but I refuse to use them unless they did go back to the orginal. Of course, I also believe in an all powerful God. He protected His people(Jews) through many extermination atempts, so, I believe, He can also protect His book.



I guess the best way to say it is this, I don't just believe in God. I KNOW Him. An agnostic or atheist, or Buddist, or whatever religion is not gonna shake me. Whether I can answer their questions or not. Therefore, I'm not offended by someone else's talk. I also love to debate, but I hate to see people get hurt or upset. I think it is good and healthy to put your beliefs out there, but I don't as much as I use to because people do take things as insults or put downs!



I loved this when I saw it the first time(I believe on Slate, which, if you don't visit there you should, very anti-Christian;)!) and I liked that you put it on here to discuss. What I didn't like was that some were claiming that they were being unfairly attacked by other groups. I was trying to point out that everyone faces discrimnation every day. Talking to each other is the only way to get past it all, be it differences in race, religion, or lifestyle!



Oh, one more thing, I don't mind the term "gay" it means happy...... but "queer" is offensive to me!

JuLeah - posted on 09/01/2011

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Jennifer: who called who a redneck? I missed it completely. As a fellow redneck I say, "Yah - don't be a meanie" But, again, I was not offended, as I missed it.



Actually, I have really not found anything here offensive and I take nothing personally



You do see Jennifer, don't you, that I didn't write the comic skit myself?



And, I can't say which sources the author used. There are many many stories of Adam and Eve not found in the KJV of the bible or the NIV .... there are as many bibles as there are Christians and each has a slightly different spin, slightly different wording ... plus there are stories that didn't make it into the bible she might have been referencing ... but that is not the point.



The point is, people don't use the bible to join in community, they don't use it to heal, to bring together, to lift up, to bring joy and love into the world .... people use it as an excuse to hate, pound people over the head with it, use it to justify fear and violence ....



In the exaggerated fashion of most comics, Betty Bowers was attempting to turn that back on the haters





I have read BTW, more versions of Adam and Eve then I can number off the top of my head .... all made it into some bible somewhere and all were written many thousands of years ago ... in most, Adam and Eve are not actually humans - more ideas, concepts ... In one they are HUGE; like Titans.



In many they were created at the same moment, and fitted together back to back ... God did not create Eve from Adam's rib, but sperated them ... it was suggested in that story that the reason we have bumps down out spine was becuase that was the cut mark God left when we were seperated .....



And, maybe I am not understanding your posts??? I am missing something here, but that is a condition I have learned to live with :)



Ohh, and interesting point ... in our culture we have two accepted words for gender (male and female) and one less accepted (Trans) ... in some culture, there are as many as eight genders and each has a name :) People who are queer are considered ... advanced, spiritual ... able to call on the energy of more then one gender gives us a connection to others and a deeper connection to the Sacred .... I gotta say, I like that :)

Jennifer - posted on 09/01/2011

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Well, this didn't get nasty. But then, I have a feeling it was meant to get that way. Forgive me for not using names, but I read through the post, and certain things caught my eye. While I love to debate (dh says argue!) I honestly could care less who said what, cause I'm not into holding grudges!

Someone stated 'prejudice' was holding your views and not letting them go....sounds like everyone on here, including me, as I will not change my mind......

"Redneck" is VERY MUCH a slur. It is used to call someone uneducated, stupid, bigotted, a drunkard, and usually dirty and poor. It IS OFFENSIVE! Just because we 'rednecks' take it and make jokes about it, does not mean we are too stupid to know the meaning behind it's use. We also prefer not to fight, and let it go. Young African Americans have also tried this with another well known word. I hear them call themselves by it all the time. That does not mean I'd walk up to them and use it myself. I find it too offensive to even type.

I do not find where Eve ever had children with Cain. After he killed his brother, he left. Adam and Eve had other children after that. Cain also had children with his wife. BUT, this post was written by someone who does not even believe what the bible has to say, so it is kinda pointless to argue with someone who can always fall back on that! The story of Lot kinda made it clear that the writer(not the poster) knew little about the bible, and just took stories known to them. As I stated before, Lots daughters raping him would have been much better to use. The story of Judah and Tamar would also have fit better. What the writer does not seem to get is that all of those were immoral examples. Just because someone did it in the bible does not mean it is right!

As to whether Christians are being attacked by this post, yeah, I do feel attacked for my personal beliefs. I feel attacked almost daily for my beliefs. People feel the need to 'educate' me, because I am either to stupid to understand science(in reality, I tutor college science students), too uneducated to understand truth, too gulliable to see through lies, or I'm just a bigotted redneck. But here's my take on that: I've seen my wiccan friends take crap, being called satanist, accused of sacrificing animals. I've seen my atheist friends take all kinds of abuse. My black friend had the cops called on him because he had taken my son out to eat, no black man could legally be with a white child right?!? My gay friends have been abused, some physically. And I'd hate to be Muslim right now. In other words, EVERYONE has seen some kind of bigotry aimed at themselves! There isn't a soul alive that doesn't have some other group hate them for who they are and what they stand for! If you were to 'get into my face' I would not be as understanding, but this is a message board!! If you don't like something someone posted, don't read it! Or reply nicely. If you get heated, leave it alone. A soft answer turns away wrath, and, as us rednecks say, "ya catch more flys with honey than vinager", that goes for Christians reading anti-religous post and nonbelievers reading religous post! And you never know what a person is going through in their 'real life', maybe she needed to vent here to get through some really bad stuff at home. I'd hate to be the final stresser in someone's bad day! Can't we all just get along?

Jenny - posted on 08/31/2011

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Yes but some psychopaths are born without the ability to empathize with others, and therefore have no trouble causing people pain & killing them. I think that from a Xtian(christian) point of view, it doesn't matter how you are born, if its against the bible then you must make a conscious effort everyday to stay out of that sin, just as one may need to do to not give in to their anger etc.

Just saying for the sake of being the devils advocate. I couldn't give a rats a** either way.

Lacieann - posted on 08/31/2011

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I can't help this. My fiance left the page open and I've had this discussion many times. My name is Chris
Homosexuality is a sin according to the bible; HOWEVER, this is a loose reference and there are only a few references to it at all in the hundreds of thousands other references and lines in the bible.

From a religious standpoint, we are all sinners. None of us are perfect, and if you repent for sins, then you will be forgiven. There is a serious problem with this regarding homosexuality. God made you that way, you can't help that you are attracted to the same gender and may or may not find the opposite gender repulsive. God's expecting you to love a gender you are not attracted to is like buying a puppy, cutting off a leg and punishing it when it doesn't walk like other dogs.

From a logical standpoint, you are who you are and you can't help that. If anybody has a problem with your private life, it is their problem, not yours. They shouldn't care who you sleep with if they aren't sleeping with you.

Socially and religiously; there are many more biblical references that go into great detail about judgment and "loving thy neighbor"
Maybe you could just remind whoever is bothering you of this fact when they judge you for your "sin"

You can be Christian and Gay, but nobody can tell you how harshly God will judge you for acting on instincts that He gave you. My bet is that He'll understand if you love Him and live your life as best as you can.

Good luck

Jennifer - posted on 08/31/2011

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Oh, I'm also confused, you bring up Lots wife, but not his daughters raping him? I'd think that would have been better for the piont you are trying to make.........

Rosie - posted on 08/31/2011

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cyndel i dont' think it's clear at all what god wants regarding homosexuality since he never speaks of it himself. we have paul speaking about, whom hardly anybody follows all of his teachings, unless they are crazy devout like the duggars and such. even then pauls words are up for interpretation-through translation being lost, it's been noted he could've been talking about older men raping younger boys-not consentual adult homosexuality. :)

Jennifer - posted on 08/31/2011

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The God of my understanding loves you. No matter what! My bible says everyone sins, so we are all on equal footing, and no one just stops sinning, it's an every day struggle. Judge not, to my understanding, has more to do with judging someones personal relationship with Jesus. No one knows a man(or womans) heart. Some of the greatest men in the bible did horrid things, the bible is about flawed men and God's grace. We should strive to be like Jesus, but we still have hope if we act like Jacob......Most of the gay people I know act more like Jesus than the 'Christians' I know, so who am I to judge them. And if the law decides gays can marry? It does not affect me personally, and is not bringing harm to anyone else. I wont vote for someone based on this issue.

I also believe if Christ had wanted us to fight against 'the gay agenda' so much, he would have mentioned it. He was in the ROMAN EMPIRE, it was common, it was taken for granted, He had ample time to bring it up. Instead He addressed the hypocrites. HMMMM......

JuLeah - posted on 08/30/2011

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Cyndel ... best to you and yours - sick hubby and kid does not sound like a good time to me.

Cyndel - posted on 08/30/2011

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1st point I know you didn't want an answer but here it is: The bible speaks of false Christians and false prophets who try to lead the brethren astray...therefore we NEED to make such a judgement to protect ourselves and our brethren from false teaching.
2nd point: there is a lot that Jesus doesn't discuss, such as dating, or porn but he speaks of lust, how men are to treat women, and God speaks of homosexuality quite a few times.
3rd point: As for homosexual marriage...I don't get into it. if it becomes legal, ok, what ever. my concern isn't who they marry, it is their heart, if/when they come to Christ the Holy Spirit will deal with that issue. I'm not homophobic, I only have a problem with those who claim to be Christians and love Jesus and follow the bible to then say that God is ok with a homosexual life style in his Children...when he is very clearly not.
Anyway I have a sick hubby and a preschooler who I think is coming down with whatever hubby has so it will probably be a while before I can answer back.

Karla - posted on 08/30/2011

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Cyndel, I understand that you are trying not to judge, and I also am making an effort not to judge.



1st point: Not all people who go to church or claim to be Christians are Christians. Many just 'hang out' with the Christian crowd and pervert the bible and the sacrifice of Christ.



*Isn’t defining who is or is not Christian a judgment? As a Christian, if you can judge Christians but cannot judge non-Christians then how do you know when to stop judging? (That’s rhetorical, you don’t need to answer.)



2nd point: The bible is full of many more examples of what not to do then what to do. The only person in the bible you should truly emulate is Christ. The bible is full of Jacked up examples of marriage because people tend to learn better by examples of what NOT to do, because if the bible gave too many examples of what too do then people would box themselves in. There are as many biblical marriages as there are married Christians. The only perfect marriage will be between Christ and the church.



* I can’t observe the marriage between Christ and the Church, but isn’t that a metaphor anyway? The Church isn’t literally a woman and Christ isn’t literally a man so if you are using it to define marriage, or more specifically gay marriage, then I think it can be a supportive model.

How do you know what Biblical examples to follow and which not to follow?

And finally and most importantly, does Jesus say anything at all about homosexuality?



3rd point: Only the holy Spirit can rectify her point in her heart. This point was actually in answer to the remark made by JuLeah, about her not thinking we are sinners.



I am confused. When you said, ”always do what is right….to do otherwise is to sin,”

was I not supposed to apply that to a person in a gay or lesbian relationship (G/L) who finds nothing wrong in that reality?



I get that you have a meaningful spiritual belief system.



At one point you said “Since she isn't a Christian I judge her by civil standards which say that it is ok to be gay...so there for I am fine with it.”



This just leads me to believe that staying away from Christ is the best choice for practicing G/L people. Also civil law in most states does not allow a marriage between G/L partners, so aren’t certain Biblical judgments being applied? What about those G/L folks who want to legally marry? That’s the real question.



William Sloane Coffin: "In reality, there are no biblical literalists, only selective literalists. By abolishing slavery and ordaining women, millions of Protestants have gone far beyond biblical literalism. It's time we did the same for homophobia."

Jenny - posted on 08/29/2011

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Hi JuLeah

I know you probably know all about what i'll be trying to get to in my next paragraph and I get that you are probably exaggerating the bible to make your point about Christian attitudes towards gay marriage. Nevertheless I just want to state that the biblical ideal for marriage is as written in Gen. 2:18, 21-24 and not between a man and his sister or maid or all the other examples that come up in the bible.



Gen. 2:18, 21-24

" The Lord God said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him'...and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.



Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man.' For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. (NIV)"





That's the biblical ideal. I'm sure you know that biblicaly speaking a marriage between two men or two women is immoral. Christians that believe in the bible will naturally not be able to support a gay marriage despite how hypocritical that my sound given what other immoral acts go on in the bible.



I don’t get what you think will make this all better? You can try to tell Christians just how hypocritical the God of the bible is but that will not make them change their view. It’s so complicated. A few slip ups here and there are not enough to shatter ones belief. Takes a lot more than that.



Anyway one of the main reasons why I wanted to comment on here is that just recently my husband and I made a commitment to each other that was not based solely on our Christian beliefs, which for us was revolutionary. I cannot believe how comforting it is to hear my husband tell me that even if he were to stop believing in God he’d still stay true to me because he loves me. I didn’t realize until recently that a marriage based primarily on biblical principles is not very strong! It made me think about what a Christian "marriage" commitment is.



When I married my husband I did not even believe in divorce because of my Religious beliefs. Looking back it was a very dead ceremony for me. "Yes, I’ll be faithful to this man for all my life because that’s what God calls me to be." I dunno, that type of thinking just doesn’t make marriage very personal. Really if you entered marriage with a similar view on it to what I did then you might as well be entering into an arranged marriage with any Christian boy. Its not really a demonstration of true love. It was a demonstration of my loyalty to my belief in God. And a practice of traditions. (Really so much headache goes into a wedding, I find it ridiculous. If I could go back and re-do my wedding, I would get married at the registrar's office in simple clothes, just me and my finance and be done with it!)



I find Christian marriages very disturbing. That their commitment to each other is rooted in their belief of something outside of their marriage is disturbing to me. What happens if one partner stops believing in God?



I found that rethinking that whole concept and changing the loyalty of my commitment (in marriage) from Christ directly to my Husband has been very insightful about Love. I don’t know how exactly this relates to your post but in some twisted sense I want to say that a Bible Based marriage (which is all i had for 5 years) is not very satisfying and leaves holes in your heart. A bible based marriage is not enough to make a marriage satisfying.



So I guess in conclusion, who cares? Who cares if you have a bible based marriage or not? It doesn’t mean anything about the legitimacy of your commitment to your partner. That commitment should not be about the bible or your current beliefs but instead about your partner.

JuLeah - posted on 08/29/2011

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“The Father CANNOT be in the presence of anyone who is not sinless…”


God made something that God could not be around?

The God of my understanding is infallible, but I understood you to say God can’t be around sinners – which I further understood you to say was everyone. God made humans, but can’t be around humans?

Makes no sense to me

The God of my understanding is not a man – has no gender – and to use pronouns creates a false image… just saying

There is a big difference between ‘sin’ and ‘to miss the mark’ – Perfect is not something I strive for. I strive to keep striving. Perfect is not the goal- better then yesterday is the goal

And, again, Jesus was never anointed. Why do people continue to call him Messiah and/or Christ?

Jesus lived a sinless life? Jesus lived a life in which he never ever never ever made a mistake? I bet his siblings disliked him

The Koran speaks of Jesus in childhood. He is described as a boy quite capable of mischief and trouble. There was a story, I can’t remember the details off hand, but something about Jesus pushing a kid off the roof, or the kid falling off the roof and Jesus not helping him … I’ll have to look that one up again.

When they powers that be canonized the bible in the year 312 or something, they opted to leave out the stories of Jesus childhood, but the stories did exist.

There are just so many reasons I can’t buy into that paradigm of a higher power. But, I do think God opinion of me is a bit higher then my own opinion of me. I agree with that part.

Cyndel - posted on 08/29/2011

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@karla
1st point: Not all people who go to church or claim to be Christians are Christians. Many just 'hang out' with the Christian crowd and pervert the bible and the sacrifice of Christ.
2nd point: The bible is full of many more examples of what not to do then what to do. The only person in the bible you should truly emulate is Christ. The bible is full of Jacked up examples of marriage because people tend to learn better by examples of what NOT to do, because if the bible gave too many examples of what too do then people would box themselves in. There are as many biblical marriages as there are married Christians. The only perfect marriage will be between Christ and the church.
3rd point: Only the holy Spirit can rectify her point in her heart. This point was actually in answer to the remark made by JuLeah, about her not thinking we are sinners.
@JuLeah:
That is the correct interpritation of the Hebrew word for sin...to miss the mark. The mark we are trying to hit is 'perfection' which is impossible. And because we are tainted by sin, unable to hit the mark, we cannot enter into the presence of the Most High God, the Creator. That is the reason Jesus died, he lived a sinless life so that when he died death Could NOT hold him because death is the consequence of sin, so Jesus rose from death, and gave the righteousness that he rightfully earned to us so that we might be in the presence of the Father. The Father CANNOT be in the presence of anyone who is not sinless, so they worked out a system of exchange so that Jesus could do what we cannot do.
The Sunday morning church goers who do what ever during the week aren't Christians because the Holy Spirit wouldn't let them do that for long if he resided in their hearts, having the Holy Spirit within is life changing whether we like it or not.
Christians who are constantly dwelling on their sin are
'proud' in a weird way because they still are focused on themselves and not on Jesus, Jesus has moved past their sin, he is no longer talking or dwelling on their sin, it is gone, he is ready to move on to more wonderful topics and boy are they missing out!
Those who put their Priests on such a high pedistal are only hurting themselves and their priest. They are setting themselves up for devastation when they realize their priest is a flawed human just like them. They are placing such a huge burden on the priest, a burden that no man can live under for long without cracking under the strain or totally giving up and leaving everything. It is unfair and honestly a bit naive.
Striving to see yourself as God see's you...a great thing to strive for. I challenge you to ask him. Sit down and ask him to show you exactly how you look to him. It can be quite a picture! It still amazes me when i see the beauty of the brush strokes of the painting he made of me. How can he see me like that after all I have done Psalm 45:10-11a says "Hear, O daughter, and consider, and incline your ear:
forget your people and your father's house,
and the king will desire your beauty." The NIV version says "The king is enthralled by your beauty"? Meaning he is staring and cannot stop!
He really does want to show you! I hope you ask! Good night sister.

JuLeah - posted on 08/29/2011

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I hear Christians talk about how much God loves them … IF ….

If they mess up, they will burn forever in damnation – that is not love folks, that is threats, that is intimidation, that is controlling and it is NOT free will.

If I tell you, give me your money or I will put a bullet in your head, I am not actually giving you a choice. You don’t actually have free will in that situation.

Do things my way or burn forever in hell … not free will

The fundamental Christians I know are also some of the most fear based people I know: They are frightened of everything – people of different races, religions, cultures, different countries, different ideas … they seem to want a dominate personality in their lives (minster, parent, husband) who will tell them exactly what to do/think/ how to feel.

There are people out there like this but to lesser degrees

The fear comes off as hate/persecution/insults/jokes in poor taste/self-righteous behaviors ….

And, they are allowed a life free from responsibility and accountability– the can always say, “It was God will, or my minister told me to, or it’s in the bible”

It seems to me however that if they were truly people of faith, they’d have less fear

You believe God has a plan and has a handle on things, or you don’t

How can you be a ‘person of faith’ and judge others? I simply don’t understand.

Yes, you can say, “That doesn’t work for me” and in the words of Mark Twain, “Your right to swing your fist ends where my jar begins” You can set limits, have boundaries.

But, that is different then judgment. That is different then, “I am better then you”

Judgment comes from fear never faith, so how can people who claim to be faith based, judge?

I look at marriages where the man dominates and think, “That would never work for me” but I don’t think the people are bad or wrong. I don’t think God likes them less.

Polygamist’s relationships, condoned by the bible, also would not work for me. But, I have no judgment of the people for whom they do work

So, I am okay with you saying, “As a person who is straight, a Lesbian relationship doesn’t work for me”

But, so many Christians don’t stop there. They go on to say how God agrees with them. They seem to feel the bible gives them permission to oppress/insult/threaten me.

I’ve lost jobs, lost housing, been threatened, been assaulted, been told my child would be better off in foster care or dead, been told I am going to hell, been told God hates me, been told I am a child sexual predator, been told I caused Hurricane Katrina and the Tsunami that hit Indonesia, been told I am mentally ill …

I ask: You believe in a God that would be capable of this kind of hate? You follow a bible that encourages you to cause such harm to others? You believe your bible gives you permission to treat others in this fashion?

JuLeah - posted on 08/29/2011

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Cyndel: I am hearing that confrontation is not your goal.

As Jews, we talk about ‘missing the mark’- there is no word for ‘sin’ in our bible- We make mistakes, but can always get up and try again.



The word ‘sin’ implies to me a sense of shame, something within is damaged, broken, wrong.



Missing the mark doesn’t mean you are a bad person, though what you have done might not have been the thing to do



I am basing my ideas, in part, on Christians I have known. Some who feel Monday through Saturday is free time to do whatever they want; Sunday is the day to ask for forgiveness.



Some who talk about what vile bad awful people they are, but it is okay because they have accepted Jesus into their hearts, and have been saved



Some who talk about how much they love their Priest “I feel like such a sinner next to this man. He is so good”



And I think “Why do you want to spend time with someone who makes you feel like that?”



I think sometimes we ought to feel bad about things we choose to do/think/speak but that is so different then feeling bad about who you are.



You are perfect. In my opinion, only when you can fully embrace that can you live a life free from fear, only then can you ‘follow the path of the Sacred’



So, striving to see yourself as God sees you – striving to see others as God see them – that is my personal goal

Karla - posted on 08/29/2011

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@ Cyndel
Always do what is right (whatever the legal/common consideration of what 'right' would be not necessarily the biblical definition would be) no matter what the consequence. To do otherwise is to sin


I love your premise, but how does this rectify the point of the OP? How does this in any way help those in a loving “sinless” homosexual relationship who want to have legal and spiritual legitimacy? Those who are doing what is “right” for them?

Karla - posted on 08/29/2011

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@ Cyndel, you say ”Becoming a Christian is letting go, realizing that your a sinner no better and no worse then any other sinner out there and there is nothing you can do about it. Then accepting that Jesus has already done everything that needed to be done to save you.”

I get that, but I find that some Christians use the sacrifice of Jesus as an excuse to go against God, because they decide they can simply ask for forgiveness and they believe it’s done. With some Christians there’s a huge lack of sympathy for Jesus’ sacrifice and pain, and for their fellow man’s pain, and that lack of sympathy is a catalyst for judging their fellow man. So the religious goal of compelling people to behave is lost on these folks.

I can say in no uncertain terms there are passages in the Bible that do not follow The Golden Rule, and most of the humorous points in the OP are completely Biblical. Taking all that into account, I see no compelling reason to use the Bible as a legitimate foundation in defining marriage.

Cyndel - posted on 08/29/2011

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God created us perfect. But gave us free choice. Buy giving us free choice he gave us the choice to obey him and live a sinless life in perfect community with him, or disobey him and live in sin and die. We chose to disobey.
As for not being 'sinners'; we are slaves to our sin.
Want proof? Never sin again, never break any law, either by breaking the 'letter' of the law or the 'spirit' of the law. Never go against your own beliefs and moral values. Always do what is right (whatever the legal/common consideration of what 'right' would be not necessarily the biblical definition would be) no matter what the consequence. To do otherwise is to sin.

BTW...I am in no way meaning to be confrontational and I hope this doesn't come across as such. Just trying to answer questions to the best of my ability.

JuLeah - posted on 08/29/2011

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Cyndel: that is one of the ideas I can't wrap my brain around. The God of my understanding is, well, perfect - pure love - without flaw - how could such a creator create 'sinners' - We are perfect beings. Yes, our actions/thoughts/words need to be chosen with care for they can cause harm to others - but we are not sinners

The idea of 'sin' is a Christian one and doesn't fit with my world view - I don't need to be 'saved' - I need to connect with the higher part of me, connect with my source, my creator and live the life I was born to live - I believe we are all 'children of God' for lack of better terminology - I am accountable for my behavior/words/thoughts. I can't push that off on another.

So, this is one of the many things I don't understand about modern Christianity

Cyndel - posted on 08/29/2011

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You kinda got it right Karla. lol
We cannot obey the bible. It is impossible. But that doesn't mean a Christian isn't to try with everything in them to do so.
I didn't quite say my last post right either. Part of the life of a Christian is obedience. Becoming a Christian is letting go, realizing that your a sinner no better and no worse then any other sinner out there and there is nothing you can do about it. Then accepting that Jesus has already done everything that needed to be done to save you.

Karina - posted on 08/29/2011

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I agree Jennifer T.

One thing to remember about the bible - it was written by man, not God. Man is corruptible and fallible.

Karla - posted on 08/28/2011

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From Cyndel:

“Also Christians aren't to judge non Christians by biblical standards”



I have never heard such a thing.



But with that line of argument you demonstrate another great reason to stay away from religion. I can’t even tell if that was your goal or not.

(The Bible actually says “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” Matthew 7:1 – without mention of religion.)



” If she claimed to be a Christian and said she was gay, then I would have a problem because to be a Christian is to obey God and he says that homosexuality is a sin.”



And as we all know all Christians unfailingly obey God. I bet Jesus is furious about being sacrificed for sins that no Christian would ever commit because they all obey God. (sarcasm) I find it ironic that you define Christianity in a way that would allow no one to be Christian.

Jodi - posted on 08/28/2011

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Ah, I see, so Christians can't judge non Christians, but can judge other Christians. Now it all makes sense.....Thou shalt not judge unless they are another Christian, in which case thou shalt judge. Interesting.

Rosie - posted on 08/28/2011

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my gay friends got married by a pastor, and one of them is devoutly religious. all you have to do to be a christian is believe in god. god knows everyone sins, even those who aren't gay.

i'm still at a loss as to why christians aren't out there trying to make lying, adultery, not honoring their parents, and JUDGING illegal. big mystery there....

Cyndel - posted on 08/28/2011

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Also Christians aren't to judge non Christians by biblical standards. it is against the bible to do so. The OP isn't a Christian so I really don't care if she is gay or not. If she claimed to be a Christian and said she was gay, then I would have a problem because to be a Christian is to obey God and he says that homosexuality is a sin. Since she isn't a Christian I judge her by civil standards which say that it is ok to be gay...so there for I am fine with it.

Jodi - posted on 08/26/2011

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@ Karla

Yeah, I figured that :D

I see a statement such as "I believe being gay is a sin" as an opinion formed in judgement. It is synonymous with saying "you (anyone who is gay) are sinning" which is condemning that person. Maybe she isn't condemning them to hell, but she is still passing judgement in a manner of speaking.

Karla - posted on 08/26/2011

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Actually, I think Jodi makes an excellent point.

For instance: If someone eats too much and they are fat; If I am not judging, then I do not mention what they are eating, I do not comment on their weight, I know they still get hungry and need to eat, and I most certainly do not make laws against being fat.

Karla - posted on 08/26/2011

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@Jodi,

Thesaurus:

Main Entry: judge

Part of Speech: verb

Definition: make decision from evidence; deduce

Synonyms: act on, adjudge, adjudicate, appraise, appreciate, approximate, arbitrate, arrive, ascertain, assess, check, collect, conclude, condemn, consider, criticize, decide, decree, deduct, derive, determine, discern, distinguish, doom, draw, esteem, estimate, evaluate, examine, find, gather, give a hearing, make, make out, mediate, pass sentence, place, pronounce sentence, put, rate, reckon, referee, resolve, review, rule, sentence, settle, sit, size up, suppose, test, try, umpire, value



I’m thinking it was used like the word “condemn.”

;-)



Edit to add: Though you make a good point.

Jodi - posted on 08/26/2011

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"So, I am of the opinion that it is a sin, I didn't JUDGE that it is."



Judging:

to form an estimate or evaluation of; especially : to form a negative opinion about

Karla - posted on 08/26/2011

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From JuLeah
”how can you say you support her, love her and in the same breath say she needs to repent/change and be what/who you think is right? “

I may be wrong, but I think the idea is that the gay life-style is seen as sinful in the same way lying, infidelity, doing drugs, stealing, etc is seen as sinful. So one can love their drug-addicted cousin, but not support that life-style.
In my opinion, I think it’s wrong to say a gay life-style is sinful, or a “moral issue.” I would prefer that anti-gay individuals would admit their “ideal” is not the gay life-style, and forget about judging it as immoral.

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