Double Standards: Closed-mindedness

[deleted account] ( 165 moms have responded )

I have noticed that when people stick with "old-fashioned notions" instead of "changing with the times" they are considered closed-minded. But what about the people who have broad ideas and are stubborn about their liberal views? We normally associate shoving ideas down someone's throat with conservative religious people, or at least I did before this past week. But I'm noticing a trend that some liberal nontheistic people ALSO shove their beliefs down others' throats and then turn around and say the conservatives are "closed-minded" and trash-talk them.



So is there a double standard here? Are you ONLY closed-minded when you stick with what you know? Or is it also being closed-minded when you refuse to accept that such a person exists and gasp, may even be intelligent?



Your thoughts?

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Krista - posted on 03/03/2012

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I have no problem with traditional viewpoints, but I believe firmly in the notion that "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."



So for example, if someone doesn't support gay marriage, then that's fine. They have a right to that belief. But if they actively vote against it, then at that point, their belief is negatively impacting someone else, and that's not cool. But it's also not cool for liberals to demand that churches perform gay marriages (which is a bit of a red herring, because as far as I know, this hasn't been demanded, actually.)



Or, if someone wants to believe that God created the world, then that's their business. But the moment they demand that this belief be taught in a science class, that is when I put my foot down. I would no more march into a Sunday school class demanding that they teach evolution -- it would be equally disrespectful.



Everybody has the right to believe whatever they darned well please, and to live their life however suits them best.



But you can't demand that other people live by your personal mores and values.

Pam - posted on 03/06/2012

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You may have not used the word "pity" but you said and I quote



"I am very sad to hear that you are atheist and I know that is your personal choice, but I pray that you consider the "what if." Also, I just want to say that I KNOW God is real and I don't want anyone to take that chance of going without Him for whatever reason. My own sister-in-law was athiest before and is now a Christian..."



The reason this has been brought up time and time again, is because of the underlying massage there. Your sad to hear we are atheist, and being a liberal thinker, that goes against the grain of our principals because we respect and are happy for you that your practicing what you believe. We would be happier if you were happy for us, instead of being sad that we are what we are. It stands in the same line as I pity the foo" (as Mr.T would say)



The catch 22 here is that your religion wants us to follow suite, you feel its your duty to help people "follow" and as for the scripture post, it's clear the bible wants people to think in line with it and not venture to far from its set path. We get it. So where that is concerned, no offense taken, it's okay.



Now that your completely understood, can you understand that we as liberals have a fundamental principal that allows us to peacefully co-exist with one another through the acceptance that everyone has freewill and is free to exercise their own cultures/religion. To see all nationalities & gender as equal, and to ensure everyone has equal footing and rights. This freewill to practice whatever beliefs we want to believe is opposite to the action of wanting to convert, or change other people.



Now, I can tell your a good person Jenny, I know you dont want to take away anyone's freedom even if you were in power to do such things, you just kindheartedly dont want us to descend into hell when we die, the thing there is we dont believe that will happen. So essentially that part will not fall of deaf ears but closed ones because we've heard it many times before, heaven and hell is not a new concept to anyone half witted.



That said, I think we have been graceful in our ability to step outside our realm of morals that are based on free-will, and be respectful but as Krista stated "part of a debate IS to dissect what the other person is saying, to find inconsistencies in logic, to pounce upon contradictions, and to take their arguments and counter them with your own." And yea, this happens to be personal to you as well, it is the nature of Christianity. I Personally think this thread is a clear example of the inability to see eye to eye when fundamentals are so different, whereas one contradicts the other on a continuous basis.



In response to saying you never said your way was the right way, well sometimes you dont have to say anything directly for people to have a clear understanding on your stance in life and/or attitude towards certain topics, especially when to feel you need to educate others on your beliefs"to show them the way" or share your happiness, it demonstrates that actions do speak louder than words.



No one wants to insult you, and I am clearly stating I dont want to be offensive to you, my grandma is a strict catholic, my in laws are, and I respect their rights, as they respect mine. They did not ask me to baptize my children, I offered to do it to appease their need for peace of mind, and for my children, so that they can make their own decisions on that fact. They did not ask me because they respect my right to free-will as the non religious person I am, I thought what the hey, its few hours to make them beam.

Krista - posted on 03/06/2012

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Just say it- "Jenny, you and your views are not welcome here." Beause that is what you are all saying and gossiping about passively anyways.



Whoa!



Let's back the truck up here for a second.



Christian views are absolutely welcome here. But jeez, when you tell atheists that you pity them, of course it's going to raise a few hackles. Try to look at it from the other viewpoint: if I said that I felt sorry for Christians, and that they just don't "get it"...would you not be a little bit offended?



It's very possible for us all to share our own viewpoints, without rendering judgment on OTHER peoples' viewpoints. Philosophy is not a zero-sum game. It is very possible to think that your own philosophy is perfect and lovely and that it speaks the truth to you, without making oblique statements that indicate that you find all other philosophies to be severely lacking.



I am sorry that I've contributed to making you feel attacked. That was never my intent. This IS a debating forum, and we do tend to get a bit lively. At no point were any of my statements meant in a personal fashion -- part of a debate IS to dissect what the other person is saying, to find inconsistencies in logic, to pounce upon contradictions, and to take their arguments and counter them with your own. I know that your faith is a very personal thing to you, but if you are going to participate in a debate in which faith comes up, you will probably need to learn to better distinguish between a theological debate and a personal attack.

Johnny - posted on 03/05/2012

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No, I did not. You can not assume that your intention is clear over the internet. It is not dissecting every word, it is seeking clarification so that misunderstandings do not occur.

Pam - posted on 03/05/2012

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So from my own perspective right now, to answer the question at hand. The reason why old fashion themes are many times considered closed minded and new themes are more broadly accepted is because the times have changed. There are more people on this planet, different practices, new laws, people are more openly gay, woman have more rights, all nations are together as one, and with that comes a new way of accepting and thinking. When a change happens, we have to change with it, and if we dont change with it, we are left behind in an old fashioned way of thinking, that consequently may be unaccepting of others or as our kids would say "unfair". Like those old racist, chauvinistic man that think woman should be in a kitchen, try telling that to the masses of liberal free thinkers.



The people who have broad ideas and are stubborn about their liberal views, are just as passionate as some conservatives, except they are passionate over freethinking and broad acceptance in the development of a more kind society. Conservatives may be more passionate over staunch views on the order of things such as the sanctions of marriage, they seem to have more of a cookie cutter way of thinking.



Now, correct me if I am wrong, this is just theory... Liberals are more concerned with the Macro sociology viewpoint of the world; or what is best for the overall functioning of society.



where conservatives go micro more so often, than not and care a lot about the practices of a single family. Where they spend time thinking about what people do in their personal lives, such as whether they marry before children..



We normally associate shoving ideas down someone's throat with conservative religious people, because liberals are mainly fighting for free speech or to be free of having been judged over their sense of freedom. From my own experience, when a liberal challenges say abortion rights, then the more religious groups tend to gang up on the liberal thinker and it can get very nasty to the point of demoralizing the liberal thinker. Suddenly the literalistic person feels compelled to defend their stance and personal integrity, as conservatives tend to fight more personally because they think on that micro level, where the liberal thinker is thinking more broadly out on a socio macro level.



So is there a double standard here? No, I dont think so, I think that the two schools of thought are polar opposites and its about asking the right questions, if ethics get in the way then it might as well be a battle ground.



And to answer the suggestion that we do not think conservatives as intelligent, well that is an individual question and it depends on the subject, and person debating or arguing that subject. Some people are more factually informed on certain subjects while others are more emotional about them.

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Pam - posted on 06/01/2012

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I thought this discussion was closed? Jenny, such is the nature of this beast. It's actually an oxymoron to place Liberals/beliefs/closedminded into the same sentence. Why? because true liberal thinkers are free idealists, they embrace an open page, they do not have solid beliefs and if they do, they embrace the fact that others do too and respect it, like we have demonstrated here. So, if your so inclined, go back and re-read with an open mind and heart & you may see the true light of which the vantage point stands.

Geanine - posted on 06/01/2012

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The dissection is crazy!! You are so right. But isn't that what the poster is saying . The word God cannot be used in most places without people freaking out.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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I am actually feeingl really calm too and can't help but laugh at how silly this all is. I have read over the posts many times to see if I missed anything. I am not saying EVERYONE has been unkind, but I can't help come up with the conclusion that:



If you don't want to hear what someone is saying because you *assume* or *interpret* they are trying to convert you, you are probably close minded.



Also, if you feel the need to correct and disect everything being said, you are probably close minded....I can keep going, like the Jeff Foxworthy Red jokes...You might be close minded if you can't tell that Jenny is simply trying to convey her personal feelings and not convert anyone...lol!

[deleted account]

Jenny, as I already stated, your refusal to let it be is throwing this debate off-topic. You mentioned that you were not offended. Well you are certainly being defensive about this, which tells me that you feel attacked, which you've already said you do. Generally people who feel attacked feel offended.



Also, as I have said multiple times, it is one thing to state your opinion and explain it if you must, it is another matter entirely when you keep bringing it up. I'm sorry if you felt the need to do so because of what Jenni asked, but she already said that it was misconstrued. I may be mistaken, but I haven't noticed anyone else really hanging on to the religious aspect like you have. I think it's because none of us are really all that religious that we are not telling you we're sad you're a Christian. I also think it's because we feel it's offensive for someone to say that to us, so we're not saying it to someone else. It's courtesy.



If you want to continue arguing, then take it to another thread. I am closing this one because it seems that the subject that is causing us all to get off subject is not being dropped.

Pam - posted on 03/06/2012

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Out of concern, I would really like you to re-read that before coming up to a conclusion on what we are trying to accomplish. If anything we are working towards a very commendable acknowledgement of one another and I do believe I was being very kind. If you dont see it that way, so be it.

Pam - posted on 03/06/2012

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If anything, I think your the one frustrated here, as I feel very calm in my demeanor. In no way was I being offensive. No one is worked up, but that may be hard for you to hear because you cant convey emotions so well in text. I think you need to go back and instead of skimming through what was said with the preset notions that your being attacked and prejudged, do it carefully and really say it out to yourself, then come back and make another analogy... Since this ones out of emotion.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Kalloosit, funny because NOBODY here has shown me *a hunger for knowledge* as you put it. When I tried to share my point of view, EVERY SINGLE TIME, somone came back with a counter and/or told me that I am trying to convert them.



I have asked questions to try to understand but nobody has done that to me...closed minded?

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenni, if you read my last response, I think it is clear that I would not be offended. It would start a whole other debate that we can't get into here, but you clearly feel the way you do for a reason as do I. I have not nit-picked atheism, simply shared my opinions. This is what this is all about right? Being open-minded?

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Just the mere fact that many of you are *irritated/frustrated, etc* with me for openly sharing my beliefs and opinions screams CLOSED-MINDED!



I also don't understand why everyone is so worked up that I am *sad* about people being atheists. I just ask you to understand that I have a right to believe what I believe, as you all do, and I have a right to be proud of what I believe, as you all do, but it would be selfish of me to NOT be sad if I personally feel that my faith is the key to spending eternity in paradise with my creator, and others (general others) feel the EXACT opposite. Yes I feel that is sad and I find it very STRANGE that nobody has expressed that *I* am waisting my time with christianity and are sad about that. I would not be offended by that as it is your opinion and would totally understand that if you are passionate about what you believe, I do probably look like I am waisting my time...get it at all?



Jenni, like I have made clear many times, I never said ONE SINGLE WORD about ANYBODY converting to my Faith and would really appreciate if that word *convert* stoped comming up! I have no intention of swaying anyone necessarily, but simply to show MY side of the story and everyone is taking it extremely personally.

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jenny, let me ask you a question. If I started nit-picking the Christian Bible to explain to you why I can't accept it as god-breathed. To encourage or challenge you to join the Atheist/liberal team. Would you be equally open-minded to the possibility your god doesn't exist or at least not according to the KJV Bible?

Pam - posted on 03/06/2012

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I think this whole example of seeing eye to eye, the contractions of fundamentals, peoples vantage points on certain takes all represent the whole liberal/conservative battle. Alas, good debaters, dont shove ideas down your throat with lack of respect for your already established ideas, they appeal to your curious side and to their own through exploitative narratives. If there are people trying to shove ideas down your throat without being respectful of your own life perspective, then they have a lot to learn and if they continue to debate and learn and grow, then maybe they will learn from their mistakes. Debates make you feel smarter over time, and come from the hunger for knowledge. Arguments add stress and are fuels by angst.



I think we have been there depending on the subject, debating experience and understanding of the point of debating...

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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That's why I said "let's" including myself. ;)



Jenny, I think where we are the same. Is that we both are strong in our individual beliefs. Which is fine. You have lived as an Atheist and found that didn't work for you. I have lived as a Christian and found that didn't work for me. So I believe we have both allowed ourselves to be open at some point in our lives to the other side, and decided it wasn't for us. Correct?



Where the close mindedness comes in (at least how I see it) when referring to (in general) liberals vs. conservatives. Is that conservatives want everyone else's beliefs, views, to align with their own. They do not accept that others have different beliefs. I could accept you for having different beliefs than me, I told you I was happy you found something to believe that bettered your life. You could not feel the same way for me.



I'm not saying which is wrong or which is better, just what is. I don't need an explanation of how you can't help but feel sorry me because you fear my eternal soul. I get that. I'm not saying you're ill-intentioned. But to me, that way of thinking is closed-minded. You think I'm being closed-minded because I can't be converted to your belief system. I think you're being closed-minded because you can't accept that others have different beliefs and they are just as equal as your own. I'm sure we're both right. We're both closed-minded in our own way.

[deleted account]

Jenny, as Jenni and i both said, the topic is not beliefs or religion or anything like that. if you want to talk specifically about religious beliefs, start a new thread. however, in this thread, religious debate is overshadowing the double standard debate, and that is why i'd appreciate it if the religious part was dropped. state your opinion, explain it once if you must, and move on. if you (general you) can't do that, then it turns into an argument, which is what i'm seeing.

[deleted account]

lol thank you Jenni, sorry if i offended anybody too badly. all ideas pertaining to the topic ARE welcome, though. as long as it's on-topic.



sorry, i'm just trying to moderate my thread and make it a bit easier on the official mods, lol, so they don't have to come in here and be like what's up with this off-topic-y-ness and all...



but yeah...going to run off now and check back this afternoon.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jaime, this is where the conversation ended up. Jenni, I never intended to do that. If anyone paid attention to what all was being said, this is just what came of it. I NEVER said that my way is the only right way, weather I believe that or not. Apparantly, nobody wants to hear someones beliefs if they are opposite of theirs, which makes that very close minded. VERY ON SUBJECT!

Jenni - posted on 03/06/2012

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I just want to clear one thing up. Apologize Jaime. But I was the one who said "by all means share" and I think it was misunderstood or taken out of context. I meant feel free to share your beliefs but don't belittle other's beliefs. Saying you feel sad for them and such. I didn't mean go ahead and share on this thread. Because that is OFF TOPIC. Just to be clear. I meant in other contexts, feel free to share your beliefs and what they have done for you but don't put down others for their beliefs or tell them your way is the only right way. That shuts down the line of communication IMMEDIATELY. And sharing of beliefs is not what this particular thread is about.

If you wish to share your beliefs with others, feel free to start your own topic. But let's not hijack Jaime's thread here and stray too far from the original topic.

[deleted account]

you said you felt sad for atheists. that is the very definition of pity. and i don't think anyone is trying to "gang up on" you, i just think that the majority of the people who have commented on this topic believe one thing and you believe another. good for you with your beliefs and all, and yeah sure they're welcome, but the debate was not and is not Christianity or even religion, it's double standards on closed-mindedness. that's the bottom line and that is the main reason i'm getting irritated. i don't know about anyone else.



as i said in a post before, there is only so much a person can take and i'm at my limit. if this gets off-topic again i'm closing it.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Krista, I never used the word pity and no I was never offended and am still not offended. I just find this so funny because I am the only one being corrected, yet told to share my side...

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Just another thing because I can't have everyone gang up against everything I said w/o defending it. I skimmed through some of the posts and I saw where my comments were called "closed-minded, selfish, condescending, insulting and offensive." I never once called names and said anything like that to anyone else, yet it seems like I caused the most uproar in this whole thing. I feel like I handeled your comments pretty well, especially concidering I had like 7 different people questioning me, but most of you had something negative/corrective to say toward mine...and I am the closed-minded, offended one?



I never once mentioned that I don't want to hear what atheists have to say,(and I even asked specific questions), but was just trying to show y'all a different point of view. Not to many of you really handeled it gracefully, but rather just continued to go on about how I was just trying to convert you. I never accused anyone of trying to convert me just because you shared your veiws. Just saying...

[deleted account]

"Just saying, I don't think anyone wants to hear a Christian point of view in this particular post. That is ok though and totally understandable..."



Before I read much further, please don't tell me you're feeling as though Christians are being persecuted by the evil Liberals.



It doesn't wash.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Jodi, Johnny, everyone, I also mentioned several times that I was not trying to "convert" anyone but I was encouraged SEVERAL times to keep sharing and that is what I did. Everyone is assuming what they want to assume and it is taking everything out of context, which is making this whole thing more silly and pointless with each new post. You all should have just told me to not share and not waist my time because all you are doing is pretty much making fun of, and disecting everything I said (after I was encouraged to stay in the conversation.) Just say it- "Jenny, you and your views are not welcome here." Beause that is what you are all saying and gossiping about passively anyways.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/06/2012

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Johnny, Jaime, I just have to mention really quick that I was never offended that/if others were offended by me. I said probably 15 times what my intentions were and that was to *share* as I was invited to do, and I honestly lost no sleep over it and had no reason to. Please don't assume im offended.

Jodi - posted on 03/05/2012

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Oh yeah, and it's one thing to try to convert someone with a few phrases, paragraphs etc etc...but at some point it needs to stop. Pretty sure Jesus never harped on anyone trying to convert them, he gave them info, and left them with it to make their own decision. For the record, I do not believe that she was trying to convert anyone after a certain point. For a while...yeah, sure...but it did turn into an actual debate after a bit.

Jodi - posted on 03/05/2012

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A couple of things here. I agree with Johnny, it's not about being offended by her beliefs, I'm not, great for her...it's about being offended by her pity for those that don't believe the same as her, by her inability and unwillingness to be happy for others who have found what makes them happy, as we are for her.



As for being offended because someone else got offended by what you said...that's along the line of "I'm mad at you because you're mad at me!", rather juvenile personally. Not saying it never happens to us all, but it's kind of stupid. If you offended someone, apologize (or accept it and not apologize, although that kind of douschy!) and get over it.

[deleted account]

and right now i need to get along with my bed, haha. good night, interested to see if this will blow up overnight like it did today but probably not since it's night time and i think the majority of the people who posted so far are in North America or something... *rambling because i'm sleepy and hyper, never a good thing, just ignore me...*

[deleted account]

i completely agree. and i'm guilty of being intolerant of intolerance, haha. i'll tolerate it until it becomes a problem for me, at which point i will get up in someone's face for it. there is a point at which you should stop trying to convert people. for me it's after you've stated your beliefs and then explained them further, and after that you're just harping about it to me and it becomes irritating. and that's for all things, not just religion. if i'm not already on your side, it's either because i'm neutral or i have enough information to think otherwise. i'm a moderate, lol. i get along with everybody xD

Jenni - posted on 03/05/2012

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haha what Johnny said. It's late for me too. But that's exactly it.



"We support the idea that we all have the right to hold our own beliefs and values, political and religious. But when someone's value system is about stopping others from having their own beliefs or choices, or trying to make other people believe the same as them, we struggle. Do we tolerate intolerance or not? "

Johnny - posted on 03/05/2012

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You see Jaime, I don't think that non-religious people are offended by a religious person's beliefs, except for when those beliefs are purposefully denigrating to the other side. I would wager that the double-standard here runs the other way. Some religious people want their intolerance to be tolerated without showing tolerance themselves.

Johnny - posted on 03/05/2012

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There is quite a difference between being offended by someone's beliefs and being offended by someone trying to tell you your beliefs should change. Although, I suppose if someone's beliefs require them to try to make you change your beliefs, as seems to be the case somewhat in this debate, it might become the same thing. I think that is a struggle for liberals. We support the idea that we all have the right to hold our own beliefs and values, political and religious. But when someone's value system is about stopping others from having their own beliefs or choices, or trying to make other people believe the same as them, we struggle. Do we tolerate intolerance or not?

[deleted account]

i think the point of my last post was missed, but that's understandable, it wasn't well-worded. and it's close to midnight here and i haven't had my nap, haha. so forgive me...



but the point of my last post had nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism. my question was, basically, why is it okay to tell someone who has offended you (general you) that they have done so, but not okay for that someone to be offended in return? (this is JUST from my last post, not the OP.)



i hope that's more simple...i'm all jittery from lack of sleep and cuz it's cold in here...



i honestly don't care but for the sake of the debate i still think it's a double standard.



both sides are offended by the others' beliefs, but only one side is being pointed out for it.

Jodi - posted on 03/05/2012

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It did except for that particular statement, which I took as "I've tried and failed to convert a conservative." Which, re-reading, I realize I took that the wrong way! Sorry!

Jenni - posted on 03/05/2012

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Jodi, I thought that's what I said... more or less. Did it not come out that way?

Jodi - posted on 03/05/2012

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"Trying to convince a conservative to come to the liberal side is a fruitless endeavor and vice versa." But here's the thing, I don't give two hoots about trying to convince a conservative to come to my liberal side. I don't try to turn a conservative liberal...my debates are generally focused around...you can be conservative, raise your family conservative...whatever. BUT, not everyone needs to be conservative, raise their families conservative. You can be conservative w/o enforcing that belief system on anyone else. I know many who are very conservative in their lifestyles, but don't feel the need to make others fit that peg.



I 100% agree with you on it being a fundamental part of our being, that the two are very functional parts of society. It's not so much about each party respecting the other though to me, it's about each person respecting the next person and their leaving them to live their life regardless of whether or not you agree with it.

Jenni - posted on 03/05/2012

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Jaime, I think the difference is that Jenny is trying to encourage non-Christians to become Christians. Whereas no one is trying to encourage her to become an Atheist. She wishes for everyone to believe the same thing she does. To bring them to her side. Liberalism is based on the idea that we all believe differently and we don't want/need everyone to believe the same thing. But I think for liberals the line becomes crossed the moment a conservative tries to assimilate.



I am strong in my liberal ways. As most conservatives are strong in their conservative ways. It is ingrained in us, it is based on our fundamental beliefs and personalities. It can not be changed. Trying to convince a conservative to come to the liberal side is a fruitless endeavor and vice versa. (unless they are on the fence). I have no interest in changing Jenny (or anyone else). I believe conservative or the right, are very functional in our society. I believe that liberals or the left, are also very functional in our society. I believe we can co exist, that we have to co exist and in order to do that we have to accept that we can't change each other. We have to respect that we have very different fundamental beliefs.



So in our countries we need to establish a balance between conservative values and liberal values in compromise. So all citizens are content. Attempting to change each other's core values is a pipe dream.

[deleted account]

lol, i've only had two threads that actually ever became anything and this is one of them so i'm a bit proud that i thought of something that could get people talking, lol! i'm not too anxious, i just know that sometimes things get out of hand and threads do get locked. i don't want it to get that way.



so just wanting it to stay on topic.



but it does present a great question to help fuel the debate...



is it a double standard that Jenny is being told it's offensive to try to "encourage" others to share her views when the idea that such actions are offensive is really just others' opinions on the matter?



i may not agree with Jenny, but i do think that's a bit of a double standard. consider this: it is generally accepted that to offend someone is not good. from what i gathered, Jenny offended some nonreligious debaters with her beliefs. in return, Jenny was offended because those debaters were offended. IF it is generally accepted that to offend someone is not good, then aren't we all in the wrong? because generally, everyone has been offended in one way or another, and considering being on the offense is generally a bad thing for society and debate, then we must all be offensive in some way, and we must all be in the wrong somehow.



which seems somewhat logical, since no belief or "truth" is entirely fact. it may be based on fact, but it is still merely a belief or "truth" for any singular individual.



reminds me of my friend's description of physical chemistry...but anyhoo....



i'm trying to be completely general, having skimmed through five pages of debate about Christianity though it was never mentioned in the OP. if i come off as a bit rude, it's only because i have a love/hate relationship with religion, so please don't take it personally.

Mrs. - posted on 03/05/2012

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Jamie, I never see threads being shut down as a reflection of the OP's debating skills or anything. I don't even see the OP as the "owner" of the thread (although they do get to close it if they want).



I look at starting a thread as casting a line that the group then takes out of your hands and passes around. You may never even have it in hands again.



Personally, I wouldn't worry at all if one of my threads got shut down if it wasn't due to anything I did...I'd just figure it was a hummer of a debate question and well worth getting heated over.



I know that is not on topic...I'm just reading some anxiety on your part about it and didn't want you to think anyone would think less of you if that happened or something.

[deleted account]

thank you madame mod! ladies, don't get my thread shut down! i've been gone all day, only two pages this morning - TWO! goodness...



going back to scan the comments...

Jodi - posted on 03/05/2012

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Oh, I forgot to add, if you seek out information, get information from more than just biased sources, weigh new information brought to you, receives facts as they are, facts whether they mesh with your opinion or not, and openly listen to the other side, or at least half of these most of the time, then you're probably a pretty open minded person. That goes for either side.

Jodi - posted on 03/05/2012

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"Are you ONLY closed-minded when you stick with what you know?" (copied and pasted from the OP)



This depends on several factors. For starters, do you seek out new information, or do you remain in blissfull ignorance of any new or challenging thoughts on whatever topic is at hand? Do you discredit information given to you simply because it does not mesh with your opinion? Do you discredit scientific facts because they are not what you agree with? Do you only get your information from biased sources? (such as either a liberal or conservative web page) Do you spout off at the mouth without giving the other a side a chance to speak, or do you have a civil, intelligent conversation about whatever topic? Do you honestly weigh the other viewpoint BEFORE making a judgement?



If the answer to at least half of these is yes...then you're probably close minded. We are all guilty of one or two time and again, that is for sure, but some people, take it to a whole new level.



"Uncle Bob", ultra conservative republican. We have had many debates via facebook, emails and in face. When citing his own evidence, it is nearly always from raisingred.com (I think that's what it is.) Or from wikipedia (nt biased, but not a reliable source either). When represented with facts that disprove a certain notion of his, he denies them, when cited the source of the fact, even if it's NOT a biased website (which I try to never use simply for the sake of fairness) he claims that "the damned liberals" made the study AND the website but just try to make it LOOK non-biased by not having a biased sounding web domain name. Time and time again, he'll walk in on a conversation, vehmently bash the other side, get his opinion out and then walk away without having heard what was being said before he walked in or after he left. Whether he weighs the information presented to him, I can't say since I'm not in his head, but I do doubt it. Whether he seeks new information, maybe, but I wouldn't be surprised his only source of information is Fox news and raising red, since those are about the only sources I've ever seen from him. I feel he is a very close-minded individual. BUT, I know liberals/democrats like that too. I also know conservatives/republicans who are very open minded.



Uncle Bob is NOT representative of all republicans or conservatives, but nor is he a single case. Personally, I have encountered this type of attitude more from republicans than from democrats, but that is probably a biased statement since I agree with most of what democrats have to say.

Jenni - posted on 03/05/2012

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*Mod Notice*



We've seemed to have gone a little astray here. Let's get back to the original topic of "Double Standards: Closed-mindedness".



Thanks,



Jenni =^;^=

Jenny_D - posted on 03/05/2012

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Kaitlin, it just kind of happened. I was invited and even encouraged to share my prospective and this is where it ended up.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/05/2012

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Rebecca, yes, and please don't ask me to explain because it isn't gonna matter anyways.

Kaitlin - posted on 03/05/2012

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How did this turn into an argument about Christianity/religion? Isn't that a *little* off topic? I know plenty of conservatives that are FAR from religious. ;)

Mrs. - posted on 03/05/2012

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I'm confused...



Do some Christians believe that birth defects are caused by the devil?



I'm not surprised, I just didn't know that.

Jenny_D - posted on 03/05/2012

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Hope I don't know what you are so upset about. I never really said what I believe or don't believe specifically and you are acting as if I have been hatefull and speaking against all types of things. I never once said ANYTHING regarding abortion or gay marriage (or anything that specific for that matter). I also never said a thing against liberty or freedom, etc. If you have the time, go back and read over my posts and you will see that I tried to simply be informative and open as I was invited to be.



Krista, I am so tired of this thread, but one last thing, there is a reason why children are born with birth defects. My husband and I work with them every day and never once blamed God. We blame the *opposite* of God. This will be my last post simply because this is all very silly. We all think what we think and are twisting and disecting eachothers words and getting nowhere. I now believe debating is EXTREMELY pointless and a waste of time. We all need to get a life and find something better/more productive to do!...lol!



(if anything I feel sad and a little hopeless that everyone has such different beliefs and opinions because it makes it harder to relate to anyone! This has nothing to do with my personal faith beliefs, but everything in general. Try to find one person in the WHOLE world that believes everything the same you do verbatim...isn't going to happen. It is just so weird when you really think about it.)

Krista - posted on 03/05/2012

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We are perfectly made and NOBODY can tell me differently on that!



Parents who have given birth to children with severe birth defects that were incompatible with life would probably venture to disagree with you...





And my 2 daughters have the same parents, same ancestors, etc and they are 2 VERY different beings. I just think that it is hard to believe that this world is here by accident or random cirrcumstances. We have everything we need to live, eat, all animals breed...too perfect :)



Ah, but your truth is that the world was put here for us. My truth is that we evolved in order to adapt to the world we were in. We have everything we need to live because we evolved in such a way as to be able to take maximum advantage of our surroundings.



Heck, even if you look it from a biblical point of view, God created the earth before he created man. So he would have created man in a way that he fit into the world that was there. Not the other way around.

Hope - posted on 03/05/2012

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Wow Jenny I have never seen anyone dig themselves a deeper whole.

For a start, I has a christian I found offense in some of what you said. I can see liberty as very "christian" as Christianity was formed from men of faith thinking in a more liberal way. I "hate", yes I said the "H" word, that I am put into the conservative basket because of my religious views.



I feel I am very open minded, we live in a very complex world and to view it in a black and white way is very dangerous.

I personally will never have an abortion but am I going to with hold that right from other women no because I can see the dangers involved in making it illegal.

Do I believe in gay marriage, no. Personally it goes against my beliefs, my I going to condemn someone for making the choice to live that way no. God himself gave us FREE CHOICE so who am I to condemn those who use that free choice.

God himself gave as FREE CHOICE so who are we as "Christians" to take that away from people. We are no better then another person in this world. I think many Christians forget the teaching, God has no measure for sin, we Christians are the ones who have put measure on sin.

Jenny you mention Jesus love earlier, remember God and Jesus have an unconditional love. Are we not meant to be loving the world in that same unconditional way.

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