Evolution and homosexuality

Merry - posted on 10/14/2011 ( 51 moms have responded )

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How does being homosexual fit in with the human race evolving?

Isn't being gay sort of a dead end in the human race?

I understand it's a natural type of human but how and why have some humans evolved into practically 'sterile' beings since they're not attracted to the opposite sex.

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Johnny - posted on 10/14/2011

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There is a difference between something being genetic and something being hereditary. Genetic is related to the composition of your genes and DNA. Hereditary is related to inherited traits, of which genetics is part. You do not inherit all genetic traits, sometimes mutations occur that cause illnesses or traits that appear no where else in families before (and I am NOT saying that homosexuality is an illness or a mutation, I am just making an example). It may well be that homosexuality serves a purpose in species that we are not aware of or that is still being studied. Or maybe it is just a random trait that is as important to our evolution as eye color.

Krista - posted on 10/14/2011

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I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with evolution. Gay people have existed for all of recorded history, so it's not too farfetched to think that they existed throughout our evolutionary history. There's probably no more evolutionary purpose behind it than there is a purpose behind some people being born left-handed.

Jenni - posted on 04/28/2012

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Pat- all fossils are transitional fossils, we are in a constant state of evolution. And the process of evolution takes hundreds of thousands-millions of years, plenty of time for organs and other physical changes to adapt.



There is no ifs, ands or buts when it comes to the process of Evolution. It happened, it is happening. There are mountains of evidence to back it up; DNA, fossil record, observations in the lab, the strata, archeological finds, geological observations and tests. Everything from all areas of science flawlessly fits together like pieces of a puzzle to the Theory of Evolution. 150 years of research, peer reviewed and accepted by virtually all Earth and biological scientists.



Creationism uses logical fallacies, misinformation and flat out lies that are easily debunked to attempt to disprove evolution because creationists have an agenda; to disprove anything that doesn't line up with the literal interpretation of the Bible. Evolution does not disprove your god, it does not explain the origin of life... merely the origin of species. Many Christians have managed to reconcile their beliefs with evolution just fine. In fact a majority of Christians in my country believe in "Theistic Evolution" over Young Earth Creationism. They believe that evolution merely explains the process their god used to create the diversity of species we see on Earth.

Mrs. - posted on 04/27/2012

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Pat, if you are truly done debating, why didn't you just leave your first sentence as your last? Why ask all the questions afterward? You gotta know, with this group, they'll address every one of them. If you don't care to debate, why tease with the whole sarcastic "give it some thought ladies thing"? Sounds like you are far from done.

[deleted account]

I honestly believe that there is no such thing as heterosexual or homosexual. I think that everyone is bisexual, it just depends on life experience and who you fall in love with that determines how you express your sexuality. I have a great deal of friends in the gay community and most of them agree. While they identify as gay or lesbian, sometimes the opposite sex can cause sexual feelings because of their attraction to certain physical or personality traits.
It hasn't died out because everyone is capable of being gay if they really wanted to be or met the right person. You can't choose who your attracted to, but you can choose if you want to act on it or not.

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Jodi - posted on 04/28/2012

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To the original OP, saying being homosexual is a dead end to the race is like saying anyone who actually IS sterile is a dead end to the race, and homosexuality hasn't evolved to here. Homosexuality and tendancies are witnessed in nearly every species on earth, from the onset of time to the start of cavemen and neanderthals, there have been homosexuals. And being homosexual does not make one sterile, being sterile makes on sterile. My sister is a lesbian, yet she is fully capable of carrying a child and bringing into this world.



See, even if every man on earth and every woman on earth were to be 100%, completely gay as gay can be, they can still bear children. We have made amazing medical advances, so, even if every single being on earth were gay and never touched someone of the opposite sex, we could keep the race going through IVF, so it is far from being a dead end of the human race.

Pat - posted on 04/27/2012

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Not gonna debate this. Evolution isn't real.no transitional fossils, supposed geological layers with trees going thru 'millions' of yrs..without decay? How would an organism survive if it didn't have all organs and systems functioning properly at the same time? How could it 'just develop' all at once in order to produce a viable organism? If my pulmonary system doesn't work or is incomplete, I die. Same with any other system...so how could I 'pass on' what I don't have? I'm done. This is why I don't post.. give it some thought ladies. We were created.

Mrs. - posted on 04/27/2012

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You know, I was doing research on sociopaths, because I have run into a few in my personal life and I have one in my family...I wanted to know how to deal with them and what is their purpose in society if any. The best research I read on it said they couldn't treat it because it was not a mental problem or defect, but in fact, a type of person, a type of personality. It went on to explain that this kind of personality, has served society very well in certain times and type of work. For instance, if you have no moral compass, have no problems with violence but have the ability to make people believe you have morals and are normal....sounds a bit like James Bond, no? This is something I never thought about, that there would ever be a purpose to having a sociopath around.

Now, I am in no way saying that homosexuals are sociopaths, my brother is gay and I am bi...that is not where I'm going with this. What makes me curious is that, if you thought this was genetic or were trying to think about it in an evolutionary context, why didn't you come up with the possibility that, since homosexuality is present in a billion animal species, being gay may help in the natural evolution of any living society?

[deleted account]

overpopulation. when a species has used up its resources and taken over all available territories, it starts to die. i truly think that's what's happening, and i don't see anything wrong with it, haha. ;)

Krista - posted on 04/27/2012

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So Pat, how do you explain that IN nature, there are plenty of species that also have homosexual individuals?

Pat - posted on 04/27/2012

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exactly. we were created. and u can leave the religion/God thing out of it if you want. just look at nature. it was meant to be male and female. period.

Minnie - posted on 10/15/2011

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It's only natural, Laura to think about these things. I think I grew up pretty similarly to you, and despite my public school education I was SO sheltered and naive about so much in the world. And in college I began attending an -extremely- conservative church so that just succeeded in sheltering me even more. I fee like I've actually only been thinking for myself for the last two years of my life.

Merry - posted on 10/15/2011

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Lisa I LOVE that episode of scrubs! Haha I have it on a mix cd too :P
Ok, a bit more background so I don't make too many enemies today, I first learned there was such a thing as homosexuality when I was 13. I thought it was a new thing, I thought that when I first heard of it was the first time anyone felt like that.
Then I was taught it was a sin.
I've only known one girl who was lesbian and she was in my church and she was trying to 'overcome' her sin.
Then I became an adult and began to be intrigued by this thing I never knew existed for so long. So now I try to learn about it.
Sorry, I do overhhti things, I do qualify for curious to a fault.
All I know is I can't believe that being gay is a hell sentence and I have to figure out more so I can feel confident that my gut is right.

Stifler's - posted on 10/15/2011

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Interesting question and I'm guessing that homosexual is a minority and there's enough straight people having kids to populate the world.

[deleted account]

Liz being gay DOES affect reproduction because if a man wants to only be with men he can not naturally reproduce.



I know plenty of men who identify as gay who are capable of having sex with a woman (without any "forcing themselves" at all) -- though it's unlikely they could sustain that attraction since they're primarily interested in men.



Some gay men marry women because they want families and a "normal life."



Human desire is complex and often conflicted. A gay person may not be able to reproduce with their soul mate of the same-sex, but they can, do, have, and will continue to reproduce naturally with people of the opposite sex -- whether it's a drunken one-night stand, an early marriage before they realized their sexual identity, or an arrangement between a gay man and a lesbian.



Whether they're happy or fulfilled is irrelevant from the view of evolution.



There are plenty of theories of evolutionary psychology: population control, gay people are able to be more creative and artistic because they're less likely to be burdened with supporting a family, etc.



But I think that's overthinking (or underthinking -- I can't tell which).



There's a ton of variation among a species. If a particular variation doesn't actually kill you before mating or prevent you from mating, there's no reason for it not to live on. Whether this variation makes you happy/miserable, wins you the approval of the rest of society, or fulfils you spiritually doesn't matter to Mother Nature.



(And of course "gayness" isn't inherited from a gay parent, so this variation will continue as long as straight people have gay children.)

Lady - posted on 10/15/2011

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I think it's like the rest of nature there is the whole spectrum from black to white (not talking about race) then there are many many shades od grey inbetween.

Some people are most definitly straight - some people are most definitly gay then there are a load of people in the middle who could be either!!

Nature is about balance!!

Minnie - posted on 10/14/2011

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Hahahah April, bromance.

"It's guy love." Heheeh You gotta watch Scrubs.

April - posted on 10/14/2011

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Julianne, I think that philosophy has a name. I think it's called Pan? It means you fall in love with the soul, not the gender. I kind of have the same philosophy. I think that is why the word bromance is a new word in the dictionary (and why straight girls typically aren't as afraid to make out with each other like straight guys are). In my own experience, I could see myself with a girl as once in while type of thing, like a 3 way or something, but I couldn't picture myself married to one. I am the straight girl that could open my mind to the idea just a little.



ETA: Only I don't think I could do the 3 way. The idea of my husband being with some other girl doesn't turn me on...it pisses me off!

Jodi - posted on 10/14/2011

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Rebecca, just because homosexuality isn't hereditary doesn't mean it is a choice...... :\ It isn't as simple as it was either *inherited* from the parents in some manner or it must be a choice. You make it sound very black and white, and the fact is, it isn't.

Charlie - posted on 10/14/2011

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Its simple, they are humans who love people of the same sex, they wont die out as much as some would like that.

I have no idea why some people want to over think it and talk about them like some kind of freak in our society, they are not that different, you dont need to know the reasons for their being as much as you dont need to know the reasons for a person being black.

I mean if it interests you read up on it but for some reason talking about them like a science experiment irks me.

Sorry but I know we have lesbian and bisexual mothers in this very community and Im not sure how much they would enjoy some of the ideas being passed around here I know if you replaced the word homosexual with black it would be equally offensive I guess more people would voice their opposition on it though but it is equally as absurd IMO.

Charlie - posted on 10/14/2011

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NO im not, not sure why you would assume that.

I am however disturbed at the comparison to some kind of mutation or disorder.

[deleted account]

Feen -- if you're claiming that it's not hereditary, are you then suggesting it's a choice? So you choose to be straight (assuming you are)?

[deleted account]

To clarify, genetics isn't as simple as is being suggested here --- it's a lot more complicated than simply inheriting a gene in most cases. Normally, multiple genes are at play in any form of inheritance and often environmental factors play a role. Thus, a "straight" set of parents could easily have a homosexual child, even though they are heterosexual themselves. Just like a "normal" colored set of parents could have an albino child. Or a child with cystic fibrosis. Or it could be the result of a random mutation, like Downs' or another trisomy. Similarly, someone who is gay can still have heterosexual sex and have a child. Sexuality isn't as black and white as is being suggested -- there are all different variations along the spectrum from gay to straight. I do think social pressures have certainly ensured the continuance of "gay" genes or a "bisexual" disposition through persons who otherwise would have been perfectly happy being gay being pressured into a marriage, but that doesn't necessarily rule out it continuing in the population as a result of being carried by other, heterosexual adults.

With respect to whether or not it is inherited, personally, there is nothing you could ever do to "convert" me to being a lesbian. I'm attracted to men, period. I have no doubt that my many gay and lesbian friends are just as firm in their attractions to people of their own gender. It's just who they are. Just as I have no doubt I was "born" straight, I have no doubt that homosexuals are also "born" that way. They can pretend to be different for the sake of their friends and family, but they are what they are.

Charlie - posted on 10/14/2011

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" Liz being gay DOES affect reproduction because if a man wants to only be with men he can not naturally reproduce."

Yes it only affects the homosexual couples reproduction with has nothing to do with the production of homosexuals themselves.

Charlie - posted on 10/14/2011

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Um no homosexuality isnt herditary it doesnt matter if a gay couple cannot have their own kids because STRAIGHT couples give birth to homosexuals.

I kind of find this thread offensive well the assertions made anyway.

Nicole - posted on 10/14/2011

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Thank you for clarifying, Laurelai (Laura). ;) I was worried at first, because it didn't sound like you. I get what you are saying now....

Jodi - posted on 10/14/2011

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Wow....my parents are not gay and had 5 children. One of them happens to be gay. It's not a hereditary condition. Which is why the whole evolution argument is actually just pointing to lack of knowledge rather than a truly sensible debate.

Sal - posted on 10/14/2011

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and being gay isn't going to die out because gays don't have children, until last century every single gay child (as was every child) was the result of straight sex....there were still plenty of gays born, they just had to play straight....

Merry - posted on 10/14/2011

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Liz being gay DOES affect reproduction because if a man wants to only be with men he can not naturally reproduce.
Same with a woman.
Science can help them reproduce, and they can force themselves to procreate with someone they don't love but yeah, living a gay life does take away the chance to procreate.

Carolee - posted on 10/14/2011

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I've always found happiness and peace when I follow what is right for me, and not always what is dictated to me what "should" be right.

[deleted account]

Laura, homosexuality doesn't "die out" because (a) straight people have gay children and (b) gay people can and do have biological children, most of whom are straight.



If you pass on your genes before dying, then in the broadest sense of evolution, you've succeeded. If being gay was entirely genetic and killed you before puberty, then yeah, it would die out. But it really has no effect on reproduction.

Minnie - posted on 10/14/2011

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I've had to re-examine my own faith and my beliefs since growing up and leaving our church, Laura. I totally understand how it can be so confusing when we were raised one way and what we feel is another.

Merry - posted on 10/14/2011

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Well I was raised that gay is a sin but I am totally undecided as to what I think. I know I would fit the term bisexual very easily. I'm much more turned on by women then men. But what I want out of a partner is best met with a man. Besides I didn't realize my attraction to women until after we were married.
I'm not against homosexuality. But it does confuse me and intrigue me.
I know that when I watch movies like brokeback mountain or I love you Phillip Morris I for sure want them to be able to love who they love and be together. When I watch glee I really hope Kurt finds a boyfriend.
I'm totally sympathetic to anyone who wants to marry someone.
But I'm not sure how my faith fits in with my heart for people to be with their loves.

Nicole, I don't mean anything bad in my tone. I do try to speak with as few words as possible since I'm typing with one hand while nursing my baby so that could be why I sound rude.

Minnie - posted on 10/14/2011

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Here's a thought: PCOS can prevent a woman from conceiving. It may be genetic. It may be environmentally caused, whatever, it's still a physical thing and not 'all in the head.' No one knows if it's passed on from mother to daughter and such.



Yet the syndrome continues to pop up here and there.



And you're right, Cornelia. If we wanted to talk about natural selection regarding attraction we should all probably be attracted to one particular body type for ultimate gene expression. But we're not.



My sister is gay. She's suspected it from childhood but only recently realized it. She would NOT make this choice. Our mother has shunned the very ground she walks upon, there's still such a social stigma against it in some families. Do you think she enjoys that? She's tried having boyfriends before. And it weirded her out.



I'll let you in on a little secret, something that I don't talk about to practically anyone, save my husband.. But I can here because family isn't here (sigh). I'm bisexual. There are only two reasons why I'm married to my husband 1. How strongly my family and some acquaintances frown upon a same sex relationship and how I was brought up (to believe my feelings were wrong) and 2. I love him. He's my husband and I was attracted to him and we enjoy being together.

Carolee - posted on 10/14/2011

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It's kind of like if you asked yourself why you're straight. Do you know why you're straight? It's just who you're naturally attracted to. Am I attracted to the same type of people my mother is? Nope. Am I attracted to the same type of people my dad is? Nope. Am I attracted to who I am attracted to because of past experiences, trauma, or some mysterious medical reason? Nope.

I'm attracted to who I'm attracted to because that's one part of what makes me, me. There's nothing that I did nor was there anything anyone else did to make me how I am. There's nothing wrong with that. (And, no, I'm not gay.)

Minnie - posted on 10/14/2011

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Homosexuality is evidenced in more animal species than one can name. It clearly has not died out. Like others have said, this is obviously a case of it not being passed directly from a parent to a child.

Nicole - posted on 10/14/2011

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Laurelai, I am kind of taking offense to much of your tone and words and I am completely straight! I also don't have any close friends or family that is gay (that I know of). I just meant that I don't think my offense is coming from any personal or sore place, I think your tone is just offensive. I could be wrong, but obviously, you do not support gay relationships??? I may have misinterpreted your posts by trying to read between the lines. I apologize if I did.

And, truthfully, if you don't support homosexuality, that's okay. There are many things that others do that I don't approve of, but since I know that not everyone approves of everything that I do, I've learned that accepting a person how they are is the best gift I can give to myself.

I also understand many religions find homosexuality to be sinful, but so is lying, premarital sex, adultery, and, of course, not loving another as thyself. (Loving another as thyself is the second of the 10 Commandments. Second only to loving thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. So accepting one another must be pretty important.)

As a Christian myself, I've realized that worrying about my own soul is a big enough task. I think when we are busy passing judgement on others, we miss our own problems and only hurt ourselves.

Isobel - posted on 10/14/2011

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genetic doesn't mean that it is specifically passed down from parent to child

Merry - posted on 10/14/2011

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Well I'm not disagreeing or agreeing cuz I have no facts on this but being a dwarf is genetic, but that doesn't mean every dwarf births a dwarf.

Isobel - posted on 10/14/2011

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kinda like saying that infertility should cease to be a problem because people who have it can't pass it to their children

Merry - posted on 10/14/2011

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Rebecca said she believed it was genetic, so that's how it would die out. If no gay people reproduced the gene or whatever wouldn't pass on.
Idk if it genetic, learned, trauma induced, medical, or whatever. I was just speaking about it in response to the statement that it was genetic.

Isobel - posted on 10/14/2011

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being gay isn't passed from parent to child...otherwise straight parents wouldn't have gay kids and gay parents wouldn't have straight kids.

Lady - posted on 10/14/2011

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Being gay is not pssed on from parent to child so how would it "die out" ??

Carolee - posted on 10/14/2011

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I don't believe that being gay will ever "die out", nor do I think it should.

Merry - posted on 10/14/2011

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So, being gay could die out if they are allowed to be with their partners of choice and don't use sperm donors or surrogates?
That makes sense.
I guess humans aren't exactly suffering for lack of new babies are we ;)

Carolee - posted on 10/14/2011

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I don't believe that there's an evolutionary reason for it. Homosexuality is in pretty much every single animal species. The difference now is that people are now refusing to FORCE themselves to have relationships with people they are not attracted to in order to be accepted in society.

[deleted account]

Not to mention the fact that not being "attracted" to the opposite sex doesn't mean you can't physically have sex with the opposite sex. History is full of gay men (and women) who married and had kids with a heterosexual partner because being "out" wasn't socially acceptable. In fact, the fact that gay people where basically forced to marry and have children might very well be the reason why, from an evolutionary perspective (assuming you believe it is genetic, which I happen to believe), homosexuality continued rather than just dying out as being a non-beneficial adaption.

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