Ex Pharma Sales Rep speaks the truth - Pharma doesn't want to cure you

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Amie - posted on 01/29/2011

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Again Julianne,

You are not looking at the bigger picture. It is not that easy for everyone, at all. Myself and my family do mostly eat in season because I prefer fresh foods. Not that there's a lot of choice out there for fresh unless it is imported (or brought across the country from BC) in many instances. The prices do not sky rocket for these, since we are eating with the seasons. Do I splurge on some treats? Of course I do, my kids enjoy them and we can afford them. They like the dried fruits and veggies too but I do not. They do not taste the same.

I do not use supplements of any kind. So I'm not sure why you're preaching to me about how bad they are. You appear to be assuming things just because I see and understand why some choose on either side. I use natural remedies and preventatives when I can but if I choose to go the pharmaceutical route, I will.

Living in several areas (as I have as well) does not mean you know how it is for everyone, in every area of this country or on this globe. So again, look farther. It is not a black and white issue. There is no one size fits all idea.

Pharmaceutical companies do fill a need in our society, while they may not be out to find a cure for all things, they are doing something. I'd even hazard a sizable guess that if it wasn't for them and modern medicine/science, there is no way we would have the longer life spans that we do. Living naturally is all well and good but there is a point some pass where it is not enough.

Our family hippie lives her life as naturally as possible but has utilized western medicine when it suits her to do so. I have more respect for her because she lives that way. She does not let her passion for living her life a certain way to blind her to the fact that westernized medicine and science does have an important role in all of our lives. She takes her pain killers when she needs them, she's had surgery when she needed it. She also uses special kinds of laundry soaps, home made cleaners, etc. to reduce her 'carbon foot print' and continue living her natural life. She's incorporated the two, something many people do. (To one degree or another.) This is not an either or situation, only the narrow minded think it is one.

Some people lean more towards westernized living, some lean more towards a completely natural life. You will be hard pressed to find anyone who swings completely in one direction or the other though, the huge majority fall somewhere in the middle with leanings one way or the other.

Isobel - posted on 01/29/2011

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I know lots of people who are paying through the nose to see a "natural-path" or a "holistic dr." and paying retarded money for the "natural vitamins" and organic, macro-biotic diets.

It's marketed my friend.

Krista - posted on 01/30/2011

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Every human being is the author of his own health or disease.-Buddha

No offense to the Buddha, but that's crap.

Every human being may be the editor of his own health, yes. But not the author. We influence the story, but we do not cannot change the basic plot.

Our habits and our lifestyle can and do have a major influence on our health. However, there is only so much within our control. There are some people who live uber-healthy lifestyles, but who still get stricken with disease.

Mrs. - posted on 01/29/2011

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I think you're confused about what holistic means Julianne. Here the dictionary def: holistic [həʊˈlɪstik]

adj

1. (Medicine) of or relating to the the medical consideration of the complete person, physically and psychologically, in the treatment of a disease.



All holistic means is that you approach treating an illness from the whole body-mind perspective. I believe eastern medicine is fully within this scope, acupuncture especially. So says my checkbook at 75 bucks a pop and that is not covered under OHIP. It is big money. The don't use vitimans, they use herbs....very expensive herbs I might add.



Sometimes, Julianne, I know you mean the best but I gotta wonder if you just need a bit more perspective and life experience to open up your mind to more than one outlook. There are many approaches to a holistic lifestyle. Lord, I'm almost certain I was a vegan longer than you've been alive but I did not let it limit me to the possibility that when my health failed there might be answers outside my diet. No personal attack meant, I just feel like you might be missing out on a more "wholistic" outlook.

Mrs. - posted on 01/31/2011

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Julianne we assumed because you seem so narrow in your approach to understanding illness and death. But that your life journey, it'll get there with time, I hope.

As always, you interpret someone as not understanding or grasping an idea when they disagree with you. That too, starts to mellow a bit with some age, at least it did with me.

I think I'm done with this one. It's gotten away from topic and has once again become a conversation about Julianne's ideas on what it truly means to be healthy. I know you are inflexible about this and it really is like hitting your head against a brick wall. I'd be a hypocrite in my deeming one discussion unless if I didn't notice that about this post.

One last thought though, you may have noticed on CoMs that you end up always on the defensive side and the only one with many disagree with you. Sometimes you gotta ask yourself, if every thread I go to, this seems to happen, is it the other people who don't understand or grasp my knowledgable advice or is it me that is either missing the point or not looking at the whole picture?

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[deleted account]

you simply outlined how "your opinion is different on the topic"
if thats the case, im going to decide its my opinion that not smoking to prevent cancer and receiving chemotherapy are the same thing.

Most people i talk to value my opinion and agree with my outlook on a vast majority of topics.
Seriously, its my profession. Why do you think you know more about it than i do? Are you studying it? Are you living the lifestyle? If you were, you would understand it and not pass judgment on others. I'm closing the thread because it is not discussing the actual topic, You are just bashing my opinions and outlook. I guess when your older, you'll understand.

Mrs. - posted on 01/31/2011

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Banging head against wall here...

I already explained why I thought, I was actually in the right on that one...you say it was wrong...for the reasons I outlined several times.

Which is why it is futile to discuss with you and why I, swear, this time I'm just done with it.

Just think about the last paragraph of my last post a bit...seriously. If everyone you run into, in every thread is telling you that you seem, for example, excessively happy and you argue that you are in no way happy, happiness is for losers, you're all crazy-it might be time to consider that when outnumbered, on the constant by a random group of people it might be possible, in spite of what you think-you might just be excessively happy. Just maybe, logically it would suggest that out of that many people, the common denominator (you) might be off on your outlook...not the vast majority who are "wrong". Just a suggestion.

And now, I'm really off.

You can feel free to message me if you like to speak further about it.

[deleted account]

actually what you said was acupuncture and herbs were a part of holistic healing, when in fact that is wrong. Its not part of holistic healing. It is alternative medicine. Its not my fault when i stated why what your saying is wrong and explain the actual definition, you needed to polity personally judge me by saying im close minded. sounds like hypocritical actions to me.

[deleted account]

"It's just a matter of living a bit more, I think. I used to think in a lot of absolutes, like Julianne....I got knocked in my ass by chronic illness, unexplained death of loved ones, suffering with no answers from anyone...life humbles you and opens you up."

To assume i know nothing of illness or unexplained death from illness is rather insulting considering all of the people I have lost from cancer and other environmental related illnesses. My home town has the largest toxic waste site in North America and i know all too well what illness and death is out there and how it effects people. To assume i do not it rather close minded of you.

[deleted account]

I dont avoid the doctor if im sick...i avoid overuse of medication for minor things that can be cured otherwise. Medication is very necessary in some cases. I do not avoid a trained professional who is educated in curing people. Not going to the doctor when your seriously ill is just stupid. The environment is out of balance, and as long as it is, illness will still exist. I have actually said that previously in this thread, i guess assumptions overlooked that.



Living holistic is what is that straight set,balance, plain and simple balance. I was just trying to explain a concept i could obviously see you didn't quite understand.That is not my entire philosophy on health and wellness, thats just one aspect of it.

Mrs. - posted on 01/30/2011

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It's just a matter of living a bit more, I think. I used to think in a lot of absolutes, like Julianne....I got knocked in my ass by chronic illness, unexplained death of loved ones, suffering with no answers from anyone...life humbles you and opens you up. For some you have to wait to understand that. However, if you are going into the industry which treats people naturally or otherwise, it is wise to learn these things. Nothing is worse than dealing with an inflexible doctor, healer, etc. The best ones don't prescribe to one doctrine they open themselves up to many, they let the patient work with them to find whatever works for them.

Now what Buddha has to say is open to interpretation as much as what Jesus said...there is not just one way to interpret his words.

I don't think it's as literal as you are using it Julianne. Knowing how much of that philosophy has to do with the mind and it's effect on the body, I would read it more as you have the power in your mind to rewrite your outlook on how to cope with disease. I don't think it literally means, you can cure all by eating local produce and avoiding the doctor. But, hey that's my thought on it.

[deleted account]

is a big part of it. not is the answer for everything.



Large part of disease, is the world is overrun with toxins from years of abusing mother nature. Individuals may not cause it, but the human race as a whole.

[deleted account]

You - posted 22 minutes ago

yes it can, we just dont know how to yet, balance is a big part of it.

Amie - posted on 01/30/2011

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No, balance is not the answer for everything. To claim or imply that everything is that simple is offensive to some. It is the same as saying that they have asked for the illness or disease by not not living a certain way. This also does not take into account infants who are born with defects -- but then I suppose it could also be looked at as blaming the mother for doing something "wrong" while she was pregnant.

As for quoting Buddha - You can look at that as; A person with an incurable disease can either let it consume them or they can live their life to the fullest until the end. They can pass on happy or miserable. The choice is up to them.

Amie - posted on 01/30/2011

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That view is too simplistic for all the diseases and illnesses that exist in this world. Not everything can be treated or cured.

[deleted account]

everyone needs to eat. health food is part of it, exercise costs nothing unless you want to be fancy about it, meditation is free, and so is sleeping, the preventative lifestyle is free except for the basic necessity to eat and drink water.

[deleted account]

Greedy people exist everywhere, some people abuse the needs of others. When it comes to alternative medicine, these things are usually a last resort.

I think thats what confuses people so much about what holistic is, its a preventative lifestyle that is used as a treatment in everyday life. You treat it by preventing it, you fix it by balancing it.

Amie - posted on 01/30/2011

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Ok, you edited. So what you are trying to say, perhaps, is that it is a preventative lifestyle but also has treatment aspects in it.

Back to the point; Those treatments and that lifestyle are still marketed and are still making profits. Just like pharmaceuticals.

Amie - posted on 01/30/2011

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You can't have it both ways Julianne. Holistic is either a preventative lifestyle or it's a treatment.

Also, since you have admitted that acupuncture, chiropractics, etc. are used by people who are living holistic lifestyles-- Do you still maintain those are not marketed and profited off of? The exact same way (albeit not the huge profit margin pharmaceutical companies make) that the pharmaceuticals make?

[deleted account]

holistic IS a treatment.....just as acupuncture IS a treatment. its not the same thing.



Edit to add,



Ok i got a better explanation.

Depression is treated with 1. prescription for antidepressant and 2 therapy to find out what exactly is wrong. they are two different things, yet work hand in hand. The therapy sessions are not medicine, they help, but its not the same as taking a pill.

Alternatively it can be treated with 1herbal remedy for depression and 2 holistic lifestyle(also mind body and spirit therapy) they work hand in hand, yet not the same thing.

[deleted account]

i dont need to open myself up. Like i said several times in the thread, some medical intervention is necessary. Sometimes we need medical assistance. From either alternative or conventional medicine. It does not change the fact that prescriptions are handed out like candy.

Acupuncture, Chiropractic treatments, herbal remedies are used by people who practice a holistic lifestyle, as well as others. Holistic is to balance, to prevent, not to treat. You cant just come along and change definitions of words because you "mean it differently"

Amie - posted on 01/30/2011

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Living that holistic lifestyle though will not prevent every type of ailment forever. People will need to eventually look at treatments when they fall ill, whatever that illness may be.

That is where things like acupuncture fit into it. It is a holistic approach to a treatment instead of a westernized medicine approach. Do you now understand?

I agree with Rebecca when she said this as well:
"That's what I mean, and other's might mean, by opening up yourself to the whole perspective not just the way you choose to live/or believe other's should easily live within."

[deleted account]

holistic is a lifestyle, about balancing your body mind and spirit, not an industry. Alternative medicine which is used by people who practice a holistic lifestyle when all else fails is just that, an alternative when the lifestyle does not prevent the illness..Its not my idea, its the true definition. Alternative medicine is the industry, and its very hard to distinguish the difference between conventional and alternative medicine in some cases.

Mrs. - posted on 01/30/2011

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Your holistic definition is the same as mine just a bit more wordy. Acupuncture actually fits into the definition you provided yourself of holistic...just so you know. I'm studying composition and english at University at the moment...so I'm pretty good with interpreting meaning and determining if concepts fit within the scope of the definition's intent :).



Acupuncture also fits within your alternative medicine definition. It fits into both-it can be both alternative by definition and holistic in approach.



Your ideas of what "true holistic" medicine is, are an interpretation of the actual definitions. Which, I'm sure you are able to interpret. All I'm saying is that, its a good idea to realize it is your, or your instructor's interpretation of the definition and not what everyone universally understands and accepts. Just because you or a teacher believes it is so does not mean the world as a whole joins you in this belief. That's what I mean, and other's might mean, by opening up yourself to the whole perspective not just the way you choose to live/or believe other's should easily live within.

[deleted account]

I think drugs can be overused, BUT, I'm not going without my anti-epilepsy medication for anybody! I don't care if it comes from the lab or the field, I need it!

[deleted account]

holistic definition

emphasizing the organic or functional relation between parts and the whole

related to holism; Relating to a study of the whole instead of a separation into parts.

the perspective that understanding human variation requires understanding how its different aspects (eg biological and cultural) are interrelated. This is one of the hallmarks of anthropological knowledge.





alternative medicine

the practice of medicine without the use of drugs; may involve herbal medicines or self-awareness or biofeedback or acupuncture





You got your meanings mixed up.

[deleted account]

I think your missing my point entirely. There are plenty of different approaches to health. The "holistic industry through medication" part of it is big pharma using their media gimmicks. Its not part of the true holistic lifestyle. Chiropractic treatment and herbs for treatment is alternative medicine. Big difference compared to holistic. Holistic uses food as medicine, ie preventative measures as apposed to treatment. To be holistic, is to be whole, to achieve balance through mind body and spirit, meditation, whole foods for health, detoxify destress and relaxation, not medication, the food and meditation IS the medication for the whole body.

I do understand the holistic approach, i am attending the Canadian School of Natural Nutrition to become a registered holistic nutritionist.

Amie - posted on 01/29/2011

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I agree. =) Constantly worrying about something like that can be taxing for some I imagine.

Mrs. - posted on 01/29/2011

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I not a religious person but I do think figuring yourself out and your place in the world is a giant piece of becoming healthy.

Amie - posted on 01/29/2011

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Rebecca,

I've always understood spirituality plays a role too. For those who believe anyway.

Amie - posted on 01/29/2011

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Well for someone with restless leg syndrome who can't sleep without the meds, I'm sure it's quite comforting (and resting) to pop those pills.

So your issue isn't with the medicine (supplements, vitamins, etc.) themselves but with how wide spread they are used and marketed?

[deleted account]

tell me why people need to take pills for their legs moving too much while sleeping.



Like i said earlier, some meds are needed to live. Some are very important.

My point is, pills in general are handed out like candy, and even "alternative medicine" has the same problem. Its Pharmaceuticals in general, its all the same industry. Holistic living is not part of that like many had stated.

Amie - posted on 01/29/2011

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So you do not consider acupuncture and chiropractics holistic living?

Please tell me how natural living has helped a type I (and very rarely type II) diabetic with needed insulin?

[deleted account]

The video is about pharma pushing crap on people, ie vitamins and prescriptions. People were saying how vitamins and "alternative" medicines which are part of big pharma, are holistic. Lumping it in with natural living and alternative approaches. It is a common mistake people make that eating healthy and living healthy as a preventative measure is more expensive, when its not..I was staying on topic..

[deleted account]

Price tags when seasonal drop dramatically. It it seeing through the people trying to make a buck, making economical and healthy decisions, consuming and spending as little as possible. Eating seasonal is part of holistic living, if you eat tropical fruits in the winter,your vitamin levels go out of wack because you dont naturally produce vitamin d when too much vitamin k is in your body. So those imported fruits in the winter, are bad for you as well as expensive. Bagged dehydrated veggies are so cheap and great for the winter. Especially in Canada, when produce prices skyrocket.



Vitamins are hard on your body and do not provide nutrition like most people so commonly believe. When vitamins are put together in synthetic forms. Digesting processes of the vitamins are thrown off. Digesting too much too quickly, putting a strain on your liver, kidneys, and making for really rich urine. Your body cannot digest synthetic vitamins properly. So you get very little if any nutrition from them. Its a bogus marketing gimmick. Its a trick. By "big pharma" who doesnt want to cure you. They stress your body and make you sicker.



I have lived in several places across canada. Its not just one little town i have experience buying food in...

Amie - posted on 01/29/2011

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It's not seeing through the bullshit when you look at price tags and organic is almost twice as expensive as the grocery store. /:) It is what it is. It's not cheap because it's not popular. For these places (the real ones, as I've been pointing out) to turn a profit and to be in service for those who do live this way, they need to charge these prices.

As someone else pointed out (Sharon?) it may be where you live that dictates price.

The price tag is there. Especially for those, who are not like myself and can not grow their own. Who do not have access to cheaper ways (like the direct from farmer meat I get).

You need to look beyond yourself and your little area. It is not that easy and not that cheap in every single area in this country or in this world. Not all home remedies are easy fixes or finds, not all of those 'home remedies' are things people have on hand. Nor are they always things easily available for some. There are reasons we have imports and exports. There is also the seasons to take into account. Especially here in Canada, when for a good chunk of the year nothing grows unless you want to set up an indoor greenhouse.

Pharmaceutical companies make it easier for some people with their vitamins and supplements. Less hassle, less fuss. For those people, more power to them. It's what they want to do.

Pharmaceutical companies fill a need and a want in society. A very profitable one at that too.

[deleted account]

Amie, every health food store i have EVER walked in to, as soon as you walk in, you see a bunch of vitamins. I understand the marketing aspect of things people claim to be "holistic" and "health food" and "organic" I understand its mostly bullshit too. Like i said, no vitamins or supplements are holistic, living holistic is the absence of pills, eating raw whole foods, not medicating yourself. Organic is a marketing gimmick, even a lot of boxed health food like cereals or protein bars, are not health food. Thats the marketing aspect of this"industry"i understand its there, but its not a holistic lifestyle. .

True health food is not this crap, large industries like big pharma make vitamins claiming to be part of the movement because its trendy. True health, eco friendly, natural eating is not expensive, people need to just see through all the bullshit. You don't need to pay through the nose for alternative medicine. Its "home remedies" you find them in your home...the internet has all the information you need on treating yourself for minor sickness.

Amie - posted on 01/29/2011

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Julianne,

I wasn't talking about supplement stores. If I was, I would have said so. Those are all over the place too. It really depends on where a person lives though, I should make myself clearer.

There are all natural health stores around. One fully organic grocery store in my city, the prices are outrageous. I use the farmers market when I can but not that often. Even a farmers market doesn't guarantee 100% organic. Those same farmers can and do use pesticides on their crops, not all of them mind you.

There are some organic foods we eat, the meat comes direct from the farmer that we've used for a few years now. I grow what I can. (This year I will have the largest garden we have ever had simply because we are moving to an acreage, I have the room to make a huge one)

The entire premise that the holistic lifestyle is an industry seems to have gone over your head. Even after you admitted you buy these things for your family. It's out there, it's marketed, it's making money.

[deleted account]

Organic is not all its cracked up to be, the majority of organics are not truly organic. local stuff is the best way to go, farmers markets and whatnot, china uses pesticides on their organic vegetables. Some organically labeled foods are GMOs. You really need to know what your doing to get true organic foods.

[deleted account]

i think it all depends on where you shop regarding prices. I just went to our local produce market. It's hit or miss each week. Sometimes the quality is great, sometimes the quality is crap. It's cheaper because it's the produce turned away by the chain grocery stores. I bought 3 nice red peppers today at $0.25 each. But, I had to pick my way through the bins to find some decent ones. Same with the cucumbers. They were 6 for $1.00 but they are smaller and skinnier. The tomatos looked crappy so I passed on them. A few other things I passed on as well. In my shopping experience, it just depends on where I go and shop. I have yet to find any market selling organic any cheaper than regular produce, so I pass on that. Plus, I honestly don't buy into the organic stuff anyway. But if one system of shopping and lifestyle works, then have fun! I'm not abaout to make changes at this point in my life.

[deleted account]

In the 90's I worked for a chiropractor as the insurance biller. I'll share my experience-it's pretty simple: If it was a billable expense paid by insurance, it was billed! By no means was this doctor well-off since she provided so many charges at a flat fee or courtesy write-offs. But if certain insurance companies covered certain expenses, it was definately ALL billed line by line item with CPT code. Amazing how well over a decade has passed an dI still remember the diagnostic codes for a chiropractic adjustment!

[deleted account]

Common misconception, natural food is cheaper than processed foods. Vegetarianism is cheaper than eating meat with chemicals. I am low income and i eat organic. Its not expensive when you buy the food, it goes a lot farther than other food because high nutrients cause you to eat less, consuming less food, resulting in spending less on food.

[deleted account]

i hate "health food stores"

Its a pharmacy, vitamins and supplements are NOT considered holistic. They are a pill. Holistic is whole, as in food. When you live a holistic lifestyle its getting everything your body needs from whole natural sources, no vitamin can be holistic. Vitamins and supplements are cooked up in a lab, its a pharmaceutical. You dont need to go to a doctor for most sicknesses, the information is there for everyone, the internet has any home cure you want. Just check all resources and get multiple sources..

Kate CP - posted on 01/29/2011

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I'm sorry but if there's a way to make money off of some one or something then some one WILL do it. Most doctors and most naturopaths are probably in it because they love what they do and genuinely want to help people. But when there is money to be had people will be taken advantage of. Sad, sad fact of human nature.

Amie - posted on 01/29/2011

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I don't fully agree with that statement that holistic medicine is a lifestyle and not marketed.

It is marketed and money is made off of it. There are at least 7 holistic practicing doctors in my city. There is at least one entire clinic that is a naturopath clinic away from these 7 doctors.

Look at all the health and natural food stores out there as another example. Chiropractors too!

It's out there, it's marketed and it's making money, just like westernized medicine. It may be a lifestyle but no one should fool themselves into thinking it's not an industry. It is very much one.

I'm really not surprised about anything about this either. I think the ones who think pharmaceuticals want to cure everything are the ones who are trying to fool themselves.

Mrs. - posted on 01/29/2011

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I spend way more of acupuncture than on the meds I have to take. I do it because it works, not because I think it'll cure me. It manages my pain...and it is expensive, 75 bucks a pop once a week is the cost of maintaining my health. Not to mention, I don't own a car and rent...this has a lot to do with my commitment to eating organic, whole foods...they are more expensive. I don't delude myself that a holistic, natural approach doesn't come with a hefty price.

Becky - posted on 01/29/2011

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I don't know, I've never heard of acupuncture or chiropractic treatments being free. And products at Planet Organic are more than a dollar more expensive than the exact same product at the grocery store. Everyone is in it to make money.

[deleted account]

well considering what "holistic medicine" is mainly...Eat right, get proper rest, insure adequate exercise, and drink plenty of water. There are treatments..yes..but go for a walk in the woods to get the treatment, or grow it yourself. Holistic and alternative approaches are not an industry, they are a lifestyle.

Mrs. - posted on 01/29/2011

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Did anyone actually think pharma was in the biz to cure people? This is no surprise.

I think both industries benefit from maintaining health instead of curing it. It just makes sense-that's how they make money.

[deleted account]

@ sharon, certian drugs are NEEDED to help people stay alive, until we find the cure naturally that is..

[deleted account]

there is not creators of holistic and natural cures kati..well i guess.....but mother nature does not make money off of sick people..

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