Faith prevents valedictorian from using microphone

Katherine - posted on 06/09/2011 ( 108 moms have responded )

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A local valedictorian will not be giving a graduation speech in person in order to observe a religious holiday, but her message will still be heard.

Vacaville High School valedictorian Carolyn Fine said has struggled over the past few weeks to find a balance between her Jewish faith and her duties as valedictorian, which include the honor of speaking at her graduation ceremony Thursday.

Carolyn said she will begin observing the holiday of Shavu’ot, and that means she can’t use anything that requires electricity until after dark on Thursday.

“It’s not going to work out so well if I’m standing in front of thousands of people and I can’t use the microphone,” she said. “I don’t think my voice is that loud.”

After considering her dilemma — giving the speech with a microphone or following her faith — she chose the latter. Fortunately, school officials came up with a plan to let her do both.

“They prerecorded my speech and they are going to play that while I’m standing up there,” Carolyn said.

“It was a tremendous relief,” she added. “It seemed like I had reached a compromise where I could keep to my faith and accept this, because it’s a huge honor.”

Observing the holiday also means Carolyn can’t use a car to get to graduation, so she’ll walk; she’ll also forego graduation pictures, since a camera requires power.

In the end, Carolyn said she’ll always remember graduation day as the day she put her faith first.


Wow, impressive.

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

[deleted account]

How would you all feel if people told you how dumb you are for being athiest? That isn't what I'm saying, I am just posing the question bc you all are saying how dumb she is. You might say that people do in fact say those things about athiests and I'm sure you'd be right but that doesn't make it ok. If you want acceptance and tolerance for your beliefs you should also have acceptance and tolerance for others. She wasn't imposing her faith on anyone. It's unfair to say how dumb she is for practicing a faith and staying true to it.

I too think that the no pictures thing is extreme since she wouldnt be the one taking the pics although the pics are of her but that is the same as she isnt the one using the microphone but it is her speech being played....to me it's the same scenario. Why should one be ok and not the other? They're both indirect usage of power. Maybe it was a struggle for her to agree to recording the speech and a step out of her comfort zone and she limited her step to this one thing and nothing more, though.

Rosie - posted on 06/09/2011

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cathryn she doesn't hate jews. you are misreading everything she is saying. she dislikes organized religion. plain and simple. there's a difference between someone disliking organized religion which has been the cause of mass murders, war and hatred all through out the years, and hating all those who are religious.
and just so it's clear, she isn't picking on just the jewish, she hates all organized religion equally, as do i.

Cathryn - posted on 06/09/2011

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that people are posting out of ignorance of judaism isn't unusual. we have unique rules which govern OUR behavior. they don't apply to any non-jew, and frankly, i'm not surprised by the lack of information shown here.
most of the negative posters have had no contact with judaism, and therefore just don't know what they're talking about, which, again, is normal, and, they don't have to have encyclopedic knowledge of it, since it doesn't factor into their lives. ok, the one poster who is openly confrontational, and doesn't care how offensive she is, is just posting her opinion - however bigoted it might be. she's entitled to it, and she's entitled to be as bigoted as she likes. at least on this issue.

this young lady was following the courage of her convictions. it's not necessarily easy to do, even here in america, even in california, since most things non-christian are automatically viewed, by christians as an anti-christian attack. so, this young lady being able to follow the halacha, the laws which govern our lives, is commendable.
now, it's NOT that she can't use electricity because it's a certain day of the week, it's because on our sabbath and holidays (yomtovim) we are forbidden to INITIATE or CONCLUDE the use of power. the rabbis have interpreted the laws with modern technology in mind. that said, whether you would or wouldn't do such a thing, is moot, since none of the posters would be obligated, in any way, to follow these laws. for your information, we cook in advance, on friday, and use a crockpot, or set the oven, or just leave the stove on, with heat diffusers on the burners... and it works, at least for us. that it wouldn't work for you is immaterial.
by the way, if someone is sick, then all the laws are suspended for them... saving a life, even preventing an illness from getting worse supercedes the law (and this is directly stated IN the law!).. her problem with the pictures is that while the school made the decision to play a recording of her, they're the ones who are doing it, for their benefit, not hers (she was more than willing to forgo the honor) pictures would be OF her, and at that point she would be causing someone else, who might be jewish, to do something against those laws. so, her reaction was really predictable. she';s actually making great concessions, which you guys aren't recognizing, but again, that's ok, you don't have to, it would just be nice to not see her slammed for something you have no clue about. thanks!!!

have a great day!!!!

Dana - posted on 06/09/2011

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I think everyone has the right to feel the way they do but, when you repeatedly call someone's religion silly or crazy, you can expect them to get upset. It's disrespectful.

JuLeah - posted on 06/09/2011

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It's the struggle that is important. Had she thought about it, wrestled with it, and concluded she would use the microphone that would be fine too.

It is the 'being aware' the 'always thinking about' the 'struggle to find meaning and deeper understanding .... Would she make this choice in 20 years? Likely, no. But, she is making it now, and I honor it.

As for the lights: She can't herself turn them on, but can enjoy the benefit of them once on.
It doesn’t really have to make sense to anyone else for it to be right for her.

108 Comments

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Sherri - posted on 06/13/2011

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Just FYI most graduations or at least here are all held outside no lighting used or needed.

That is amazing Tammy great wording!!!!

Tammy - posted on 06/13/2011

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Corrine - interesting and logical points. Yes, the young woman could have had someone turn on the microphone for her. But everyone interprets the law differently. Some follow it only casually, while others go to extreme. You just need to respect and accept peoples' beliefs as they are; you don't need to accept them as your own.

If she's caught on video or her voice is picked up by the microphone any way, it's considered an unintentional occurrence. She did not plan for it to happen and she did do everything humanly possible to prevent it. Put simply; accidents happen.

Corinne - posted on 06/13/2011

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Also, say the Dean introduces her, she walks up to front of stage, the Dean speaks to her, she replys but is close enough that the mic at the front of the stage picks her voice up and trasmits via speakers? Where does that leave her?
My hubbys graduations were also videod?

Corinne - posted on 06/13/2011

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Okay, my eyes and head hurt now. I've read most of this now, and while I get the whole 'yay for her standing up for her rights' and 'yay for the school for supporting her' I don't get how, if Jewish law states she cannot physically turn the power on or off herself, why can she not walk up on stage, stand near an already switched on mic, and speak? She doesn't even have to touch it, just be near enough for it to pick her voice up. Same concept as the lights being on cause someone else pressed the switch and the pics being taken by someone else. Inconsistant.

Sherri - posted on 06/13/2011

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I am flabbergasted that anyone would slam her for doing what she believes so strongly in. I strongly dislike when because someone is religious someone who isn't must criticize there beliefs. Why can't everyone just be proud that she did what she felt that was right and commend the school for honoring it as well. She didn't hurt a soul, and was able to leave with her dignity intact. Hats off to her and the school.

It is so refreshing to see a child take there religion so seriously and close to her heart.

Tara - posted on 06/11/2011

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In addition, I have read through the thread and deleted any posts that had personal attacks and/or flaming in them. If there are others that I missed please feel free to msg me or report those posts to the admin team.
We are trying very hard to stick to our rules on this board. Debating is great for our intellectual need to argue with others, however debating and personal insults and attacks are two different things altogether. Please help us to keep our community feisty but still respectful by following the rules that are pinned at the top of the conversation page.
Thanks again and have a good night ladies.
Tara

Tara - posted on 06/11/2011

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****Mod Warning****
This is a warning to stay on the topic up for discussion please.
Personal attacks and flaming will not be tolerated.
Thank you
Tara your friendly DM mod.

OhJessie - posted on 06/11/2011

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You're right Desiree - religious belief doesn't mean the practitioner has no reason or common sense lol. The idea is redonkulous :D

Well, it's an interesting enough story. Nice that they worked around it.

[deleted account]

With saying that Judaism is not a race I think the meaning behind this is bc not all Jews are the *same* race. Does that makes sense? But I completely understand what you're saying of why it *is* a race, that no one would say half Christian. Thanks for the added info. Very helpful.

"That's how misinformation, rumors, lies and prejudices begin and perpetuate."
I agree 100%. Although I am inactive in church, I was baptized in the LDS church and have said the same thing many, many times. It's really hard when people make assumptions or listen to hyped rumors and choose to hate a certain sect of people based on misinformation and not having the common sense or decency to search out the answer on their own.

Tammy - posted on 06/11/2011

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What a lot of people don't seem to understand here, is that Judaism is made up of different sects, just like in other religions and each sect has its degrees of devotion. An Orthodox Jew, for example will observe the no manual labor law on holidays and Shabbas, such as no turning on of lights, driving, etc, while a Reform might not. A lot of it is also, individualized pick and chose. As far as what this all means goes. The Bible tells us that on the 7th day (after creation) God rested, so in respect to God and our sanity (after a hard week at work), we rest too. Operating machinery and lighting a fire of the old days, translates to starting a car and flipping a light switch in modern times. Many devout Jews have their house lights, coffee makers and other appliances (radio and TV too!) on a timer, so that they don't have to physically turn them on themselves.
The Valedictorian that's spoken about by the original poster of this debate, did not break any Jewish laws, since she herself did not operate the equipment that broadcast her prerecorded speech.
And yes, Judaism is a religion and in some sects, conversion is permitted, but it's still a race. How many times have you heard someone say they are "half Jewish", yet you never hear anyone say that they are half Christian, or half Buddhist.
There are Jews all over the world, that have adopted the nationality of the country they were born in, that their families have lived in for generations, but the Jews all originally came from one place; Judea/Israel.
As far as Ashkenazi and Sepharadi go, these are regional divisions, further proving race. During Biblical times, those that migrated to Asia, Africa and other regions inhabited by darker skinned/haired people, later became the Sepharadi and those that migrated to the west became the Ashkenazi. There is a debate whether there is some assimilation (ie. mixed marriages), but it's not really known, since it was unacceptable back then, thus never spoken about and forgotten.
Those that talk about "kissing Jews' a**" need to take a look at how Christianity dominates the Western World. Easter, for example. During the season, you can't go anywhere without being reminded of the most important holiday to any Christian, yet the Jewish Passover, is barely noticeable, with a slightly larger display of the normally small display of Matzohs in the ethnic food section. Most Christians don't even know the meaning of Passover and how it's celebrated, yet everyone knows the meaning of Easter.
The point of everything I've said here, is that don't say anything about a subject you really haven't read up about and I mean recently. That's how misinformation, rumors, lies and prejudices begin and perpetuate.

[deleted account]

Janessa- Judaism is also a religion than one can convert to. You don't have to be of a Semetic blood line to be Jewish.



Judaism is not a race because Jews do not share one common ancestry. For instance, Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews are both "Jewish." However, whereas Ashkenazi Jews often hail from Europe, Sephardic Jews often hail from the Middle East. People of many different races have become Jewish over the centuries.



"You are one of those people that think everyone should kiss Jews ass all the time no one can have an opinions."



She didn't say that she thinks everyone should kiss her ass for being Jewish. Do you not know how to 'have an opinion' without attacking a person's character?

[deleted account]

@Janessa, I don't think she was asking for a gold star or something for being Jewish. She felt disrespected. I can see the humor of some things I do in the name of religion because I can see how they come across to people who don't understand my views, but someone who's been beaten up because of anti-semitism might not be so easily amused. Is it really so hard to respect someone's resolve even if you don't agree with their act or decision? That being said, this is a debating forum, you get what you get. And by the way, your "opinion" at the end is a question, not an opinion, and seems a little off topic and inflammatory to me. Just sayin.

Chasity - posted on 06/10/2011

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Im not sure what to say, she deserved to speak and have those words of wisdom leave her lips for her class to always remember

Janessa - posted on 06/10/2011

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Jenny "the Commie Canadian"
You took my words right out of my mouth and I agree what she did was ridiculous of why she is not doing her speech.Maybe the class should have chosen someone who wants to speak.

[deleted account]

Does anyone actually follow the OT now?? Seriously, do they? I thought that was supposed to be 'stick a fork in me, im done' kind of thing.

Isobel - posted on 06/10/2011

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I haven't read all the responses yet so I apologize if this has already been said.

I have known a lot of Jewish people as well as non-Jewish people who live in predominantly Jewish neighbourhoods and it is my understanding that MOST Jews find it abhorrent to USE the technology themselves (which is to say turn it on or off).

On the Sabbath, at Mount Sinai hospital programs their elevators to stop at every floor so that Jewish people can use them without pushing the button...when I was in Europe during the World Cup, there were piles of Jewish people outside the windows of the bars that were playing the game because, while they couldn't turn their TV on, they certainly could watch a TV that was already on somewhere else. IMHO letting somebody else play a tape of your voice (which is using technology) is no different to walking up to a mic that is already on and speaking normally.

Same with the camera...so long as she's not TAKING the picture, I don't see the big deal.

This is a particular part of the Jewish faith that confounds me...same as not eating dairy off of a plate that has EVER touched meat. Hey, if it floats your boat, go nuts...by the way...that's all clearly spelled out in the OT...how come Christians don't have to follow THOSE rules? if the OT is definitely to be followed (just like the homosexuals being abominations is).

Just sayin'

[deleted account]

I think if you take all of JuLeah’s posts and wrap them into one, that’s how I feel about the whole thing. She’s said it perfectly.
I respect the process this girl went through to come to her decision. I respect the school for working with her. And I respect the faith this girl has in her God.

I don’t believe in God, although I used to and was raised a Christian in a Southern Baptist home. But, even though I decided after much thought and reading that I don’t believe, I am still able to hold other people’s faith in high regard. Do I think some religious traditions are silly? Of course, I’d be lying if I said otherwise. I mean no offense by this but, just to give an example or two: I think it’s silly that Catholics kneel, stand, sit so much at church. But do I respect their right to get a workout at church? Most certainly. I also think Jews not using electricity on Fridays (or whatever days it is) is a little silly in this modern day and age. But hey, more power to them (pun intended lol) if that’s what they want to do. My aunt sends me scripture almost daily. She does it because she loves me and thinks someday I’ll “come back to God”, as she puts it. Am I rude and do I tell her to never email me another bible verse? No. I simply delete it. That’s called tolerance and acceptance of the fact that what makes human beings amazing creatures is that we don’t all think alike. And I think in the case of this high school girl, it was a perfect example of tolerance and respect. She was able to do what SHE felt was right and the school was happy to help her achieve the best of both worlds. I see nothing wrong with it.

[deleted account]

I think it's great that the school worked with her so she could feel comfortable and she is following what she believes.

√v^√v^√♥ - posted on 06/10/2011

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Thank you! Lol
just logically, that didn't make sense...

Katherine - posted on 06/10/2011

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I was wondering the same thing Nichole. She was still using speakers.

Kate CP - posted on 06/10/2011

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Actually, many Jews will hire Gentiles to turn on lights and the oven and things for them on the Sabbath. They have no problem making OTHERS do it, THEY can't do it.

Rosie - posted on 06/10/2011

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i've always assumed those who were religious think the non religious are nonsensical as well. otherwise they wouldn't believe as well.

Desiree - posted on 06/10/2011

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Just reading some of the posts it interesting that some people think to them that religion is not logic or sensible. Well to those of us who do follow a religion we think some other groups are not exactly sensible either. (ther coin spins both ways) She is a Jewess and very proud of it. I live near a Shul and from sunset to night to sunset tomorrow I will see a number of my neighbours walk up my road to shul. And you know it actually looks like a family moment because they do it a a community, I can't remember the last time my Christian church did anything as a comunity. and it the one reason Jews and Muslim people will alway remain strong because of community. christains are just too stupid and far to devided always pointing fingers at other christian churchs for one or other thing. The family that prays together stays together. My own family started out a jews but in order to survive the Inquisition had to change religion in order to save the children. 500 years on we still observe many of the Jewish ways in our homes the only difference is that we believe in Christ. Good on her and good of the school because they could have made a frightfull amount of noise on the matter.

Rosie - posted on 06/10/2011

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there are no facts when debating religion. if there were facts there wouldn't be anything to debate.

√v^√v^√♥ - posted on 06/10/2011

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To me, I would see this as using electricity as she is letting them use a projected speaker system and all of that on her behalf anyway!

Also, the tape recording system that is going into it and what not....... so even though she is 'not using electricity' herself, she is causing it to be used on purpose, on this very day that her beliefs in her religion state to not use it.

I would wonder about this aspect of it and argue that she IS using electricity, so therefore she might as well be speaking in front of everyone anyway.

Sal - posted on 06/10/2011

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i have had a quick look at the other responses and haven't seen this information (please tell me where it is if it is here)
I don't know squat about the jewish religion that hasn;t been picked up on ameraican tv or the hitler stuff so i am curious how an ancient religion can forbid electricity during a religious time..........seen as electricity wasn;t even imagined until the very distant future....and also i think that she still used electricity by pre recording the speach then having it played back she was using electricity to her benifit on that day so i think that she wasn't actually following her faith, if she just yelled the speach in a darkened hall with no air con she is doing her faith properly, but if she is happy then who am i to care,

Jenny - posted on 06/09/2011

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Yes, I absolutely expect people to react to my views as offensive. They are not used to hearing it and religion has always been the one thing we weren't allowed to debate. It's still pretty fresh and I get why some don't like hearing it. This too shall pass.



I want to state plain and clear that I would allow what this girl did as well. I never said she shouldn't have done it. Actually, what I did say was the school found a good compromise for this dilemma or to quote myself "The solution is a great one for that problem, yes.". That doesn't mean it's not ridiculous though.

Jenny - posted on 06/09/2011

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Alright, um, definitely not a Jew hater. I am actually very liberal and libertarian. Kind of a communist/anarchist.

I have lost patience with organized religion and feel it is no longer relevant to us as a species. I understand it is not a common view and atheist are just not coming out of the woodwork so we will be having this conversation more in the future. Non-believers are the fastest growing segment in religion today. I am very surprised actually at how many of you say you have never met one. You all have, they just won't admit it and many people don't even know it's an option. I'll take that to the atheist thread though.

Jenny - posted on 06/09/2011

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Alright, everyone is fed, cleaned and in bed. Now where was I?

The fridge was Sub Zero, the oven was either Wolf or Viking, can't remember. The kitchen we're doing right now has a $50,000 stove being imported from France. Keep in mind, these are $3 million homes. The owners aren't Jewish, I just happened to noticed the feature as I was researching the specs for the drawings and looked up what it meant. All of our customer's money is equally accepted.

[deleted account]

or how about stating our opinions supported by facts? Two or more opinions can form based on a single fact. And what is fact? That's debatable and can be an opinion as well.

Cathryn - posted on 06/09/2011

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@johnny...
fair enough. if you respect someone's right to believe what they feel works for them, and their practice of that belief, whatever that belief might be, that works for me. i've never said, nor implied, at least consciously, that people who don't believe are inferior in any way. i do feel that if i'm supposed to respect someone's rights, then my rights had better be respected, too. that's it. i don't give respect if none is forthcoming to me, it's a 'tit for tat', or quid pro quo. believe or don't, really it's the same to me.... worship g-d, jesus, mohammed, krishna, thor or the jolly green giant, or none of the above, i don't care. it's not material to me. the only thing i really care about, in all this, is if people expect their beliefs, whatever they might be, then it would be helpful to extend that same respect to others.

and, i see that i'd mistaken this board for something else. i had thought that this was debate - using ordered argument, stating facts, rather than opinions, to make a point.
my mistake. my bad.

good bye.

Johnny - posted on 06/09/2011

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Just to clarify, my use of the term respect in the last paragraph does NOT accurately reflect what I am trying to say. I respect people's right to believe what they want and respect their right to practice their faith in any way at all unless it causes harm to others. But I do not have to respect the belief itself.

Johnny - posted on 06/09/2011

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Cathryn, here, on a DEBATE board I state my opinions on all measure of topics from parenting issues, politics, religion, lifestyle, etc. For the most part, I do not walk around in the world questioning, mocking or haranguing people for their beliefs, ideas and practices. That would be rude and uncalled for, especially since I believe that we are all entitled to practice our own beliefs and live according to them. However, that doesn't stop me from finding some of them objectionable or ridiculous or wonderful. This is the kind of place where people, not just myself, state their opinions on things that we would not otherwise discuss in every day life, because we have no interest in injecting our opinions into other people's lives.

I do think that these practices are utterly ridiculous and have no basis in reason (I don't think I need to quote you quoting me directly) but I certainly don't march around telling other people what to do or what to think. That too would be utterly ridiculous and would have no basis in reason, not to mention being incredibly rude and presumptuous.

We all judge. You have been judging those of us who do not think that these sorts of practices require special respect throughout this thread. I am not seeking to change your mind, I am simply stating my thoughts on these matters. I have no quibble with your right to have your opinion nor do I think that it is invalid. This is a place for DEBATE and that is what I am engaged in.

As always happens in debates of religion, people take it incredibly personally. Not surprising really. But frankly it is tiresome that as people of no faith we are constantly being told that our opinions on these matters of faith don't count or are offensive. People are just going to have to find a way to come to terms with the fact that many people have little respect for religion and that we're not going to shut up about it or change our minds.

Cathryn - posted on 06/09/2011

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and at least 3 synagogues for them!!! the one THIS one goes to, the one THAT one goes to, and the one that neither will attend!!!!
thanks, jane!!!

Jane - posted on 06/09/2011

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To rework an old quote: Wherever there are two CoM posters there will be three opinions.

Cathryn - posted on 06/09/2011

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@johnny,

from my position, if someone isn't unaware of the significance of an act, a ritual, a tradition, and views is on it's own, as a 'stand alone'... they can be excused for much, since they're speaking out of ignorance.. and ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, since it's easy to remedy. however, someone who is aware of the significance of something, and then goes out of their way to belittle it, to attack someone else for their beliefs, in my humble (or not so humble) opinion, is hateful. you don't believe in something, you don't find the value in YOUR life, fine, good, great... that's truly your choice. however, when you come down, and state that anyone who does believe in this thing, this belief, this ritual, no matter how arcane it might seem to you, if THEY believe in it, who are you to question them, or mock them or harangue them? you can feel that something is ridiculous... that doesn't make it so. it's your opinion, which has no more weight than mine. so, we cancel each other out, which, by the way, is fine with me. the point is, that while your opinion is valid for you, it shouldn't be forced upon someone else as a 'truth', other than the relative truth it holds for your limited situation. to you, and you alone, in this particular discussion which is currently between only two people, these things have no basis in reason, and are utterly silly. to me, they're not. however, your blanket statement that
"many of these practices have no basis in reason and are utterly silly" is being judgemental of anyone who choses to disagree with you.
in the end, you won't change my mind, and i won't change yours - and i don't want to. i had hoped that you might see my position, which doesn't mean that you have to adopt it, just to acknowledge that it has the same validity for me that i granted yours has for you...
i can see that that's a lost cause.

Johnny - posted on 06/09/2011

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My use of terms such as "I think" and "in my belief" is pretty much another way of saying, "in my opinion", at least in my opinion. Trust me, I've been here quite a while and I understand the importance of clarifying that one's beliefs, opinions and statements are one's own and not "the truth." After a while, it gets a little tiring to constantly say IMO or IMHO so I tend to go with terms such as I think or I believe, which most people here seem to be capable as identifying as suggesting the same point.

Why is it that people who find a practice silly or ridiculous must not be familiar with it? My best friend from childhood was from an orthodox Jewish family. I grew up quite familiar with all of these practices that were followed faithfully in her household. Just like one of my other close friends was from a practicing Catholic family and followed all the accordant rituals. In my own family, there were practices and rules that were also rooted in tradition, culture and belief systems. To this day, I'm sure I could easily identify things I do in my own household that are not based on anything but tradition or belief. I don't exempt myself or those close to me from being prone to the human folly of the ridiculous. It's not something to be ashamed of like so many of you seem to think. It's part of what makes us human. But being a pragmatist, I simply refuse to deny that many of these practices have no basis in reason and are utterly silly.

Cathryn - posted on 06/09/2011

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@sharon...
i was strictly orthodox until 15 years ago. my arguments with the community in which i lived are mine, and will remain between them and me. however, i followed the laws and there is a logic and a beauty to them, which if you don't know the background would probably appear to defy logic... which was why i posted to this board, originally, to give a little of the information that most people just don't have, and to appreciate that young lady's actions.

Cathryn - posted on 06/09/2011

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@johnny,

no. your belief in anything, from the ridiculousness of someone's beliefs, to the ravenous monsters under the left side of the bed is yours and you are entitled to each and every one of them. however, what i objected to, and still object to, is your non-use of the phrase 'in my opinion...' prefixing said opinions. when you state your opinion, as if it were a proven fact, that's hurtful. which is why i amended one of my posts to say 'in my opinion...' when i had omitted that statement. now do you understand???

[deleted account]

OK, from my point of view, and to get back to the original topic, I understand and appreciate the young lady. She made a very adult decision. Unless you are familiar with the EXTREME Jewish faith, an outsider most certainly would think of it as silly & dumb. My dad's side of the family was raised Orthodox and strict Kosher. Over teh generations, that has completely faded. But I still understand the "giving up" of the modern luxuries according to her faith. Hey, it's what the Amish do every day! I'll just say Mazel Tov to the girl!

Cathryn - posted on 06/09/2011

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having played in a number of clubs, i've encountered stand-up in many of them.... and it's always been an attack on someone who's perceived as weaker, less attractive, different... someone it's more fun to belittle and humiliate, and to get the whole gang in the club really laughing. and i've been the one who was attacked, as well. there's nothing you can do yo defend yourself, or protect yourself from such an attack... and trying to sit through it doesn't help either.

Johnny - posted on 06/09/2011

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You did not offend me. I wanted to clarify my opinion because an incorrect assumption was made. That is all. It certainly would take a great deal more than than to cause me offense.

If my belief that people do ridiculous things offends you, then you are correct, it will have to remain. I certainly will not apologize for my perspective that not all human action or thinking makes logical sense.

I would however suggest, that if you are offended by others opinions so easily, you may find it difficult to remain on this board.

Cathryn - posted on 06/09/2011

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@johnny,
since it appears that i've offended you, i sincerely apologize.
obviously, i made the assumption that you were a proponent of stand-up. everything i've ever been exposed to with stand-up has been vile, loathesome and i described it quite accurately. if you say that there is another genre of stand-up... a kinder, gentler stand-up, if you will, then i'll have to take your word for it, since i've only seen that sort which is a very personal attack on one person, for the delectation of the audience.
so, again, that i've offended you, i apologize. that you've offended me, obviously will remain... oh well....

Jane - posted on 06/09/2011

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What's really funny is that the tradition of stand up comedy in this country was derived from the Jewish resorts in the Catskill Mountains. For many decades you couldn't be a comic unless you went to synagogue. It is nice to see that it has opened up to a wider population.

Johnny - posted on 06/09/2011

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Thank you Jane. I'm not much for stand-up, but my partner at one point was a big fan. I have seen a bit of mean stuff, although he tended to avoid that. Most of what he watched was as you described, humor in the form of self-deprecation, personal experience, or making fun of the silly stereotypes that exist out there in the world.

Johnny - posted on 06/09/2011

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Thank you Jane. I'm not much for stand-up, but my partner at one point was a big fan. I have seen a bit of mean stuff, although he tended to avoid that. Most of what he watched was as you described, humor in the form of self-deprecation, personal experience, or making fun of the silly stereotypes that exist out there in the world.

Johnny - posted on 06/09/2011

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Cathryn, you make a lot of assumptions. Especially since I did not say anywhere in my post that I like stand-up. I simply suggested that it didn't seem to be destroying civil society. You also manage to tar all of stand-up comedy with one rather sweeping brush. I'm not sure what sort of horrible stuff you've seen, although I know some of it is pretty bad, I've seen a several things over the years that certainly were nothing like you are speaking of. Regardless, it's not my cup of tea, but then that would ruin your ability to mock me for things you have assumed incorrectly about me.

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