Gender Selection.

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Jodi - posted on 01/08/2011

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"I am kind of surprised by the responses here from so many very "pro-choice" ladies....Not saying I disagree with your thoughts of the couple, just saying I'm surprised."

Kelly, why would you be surprised? Most people who are pro-choice don't necessarily think abortion is ok, just that the option needs to be there, because sometimes it is a necessary evil. Why would pro-choicers think aborting babies simply because of their gender was actually ok? I don't think this has anything to do with the pro-choice/pro-life debate. The reasons for the abortion are repulsive to me.

To add to this debate, I heard something on the news about this last night, and the mother's argument for this is that her "psychological welfare is at stake". I felt like shouting at the TV: "WELL GET A FUCKING PSYCHIATRIST".

Jodi - posted on 01/10/2011

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"Most pro-choicers I have spoken with and heard from here say that a woman should have the right to abort regardless of her reasons"



kelly, I am not going to turn this into a pro-choice/pro-life debate, because that is not what it is. However, I WILL say that your idea of pro-choice is wrong. Some people who are pro-choice think this way. Others choose to be pro-choice because they believe that drawing that line is walking very shaky ground. Think about it. Ban abortion because of gender selection, and you will find someone who will find a way regardless......possibly even a worse way than a legal abortion. Can you see where I am going with this?



Believe me, not everyone who claims to be pro-choice agrees with abortion. They just don't necessarily agree that making it illegal is in the best interests of anyone. If you can't draw a line, then you can't make it illegal. But that doesn't mean we have to agree with why someone chooses to have an abortion. I consider myself pro-choice, but this disgusts me, and I do not believe this couple should have any right to have any more children via IVF.

Jodi - posted on 01/07/2011

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I read this article this morning too, and was going to post it up!! Beat me to it :)



I think it is absolutely atrocious that they aborted twin boys that they conceived by IVF because they wanted a girl. I find the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



As is noted, in Victoria, sex selection is banned unless it is needed to avoid the risk of transmitting a genetic disease or deformity to a child. Personally I think allowing gender selection other than under these circumstances could lead to dangerous consequences, particularly within cultures who value one sex over the other. We only have to look at the social implications it has had in China to know it isn't a good idea.



As parents, I believe we have to learn to see each child as a blessing, whether male or female, and it isn't our right to choose which that will be. These people need to learn how to be content with what they have. I think, if they can go to such desperate lengths, they have some unresolved psychological issues. I truly can understand disappointment at the sex of a child, I just can't comprehend aborting a child because of its sex, and then going to such lengths to conceiving a girl unless there were medical issues involved.

Tara - posted on 01/10/2011

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I see it the same as if she had conceived them naturally. Although I am pro-choice I think it's an abuse of the women's right to choose. I also think using abortion as birth control is an abuse of the right to choose.
Abortion has it's place in society. It is there as a choice for women, yes. But that does not mean that people don't abuse that system. There is a HUGE difference to me in aborting a baby that was conceived by a 14 year old, a victim of rape, a mom who will die if she is pregnant, a women who has all the children she wants and does not want more, an oops baby for some people etc. but to intentionally get pregnant, then intentionally abort two fetuses based on their gender alone is an abuse of a system that is inherently flawed because of situations like this, and in places like China where only one child is allowed and often girls are aborted based on gender alone.
It's just a flawed system and this couple exploited those flaws.

Charlie - posted on 01/13/2011

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To be honest I felt a little sick when I first read that in the paper , that is the truth as much as I feel Abortion should be legal I can't help but feel ill at this story her reasons are selfish .

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Tine - posted on 01/14/2011

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Yeah, having kids is a miraculous thing, and I'm so glad your daughter has brought such joy and learning to you - my daughter has done the same for me!
The couple under discussion here I feel sorry for, because losing a child is about the worst thing that could happen, BUT I think they are VERY lost, and need to reset thier moral compass!!

Sarah - posted on 01/13/2011

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oh i agree with all of that 100%!



Thanks for saying that :) yeah shes amazing and i know i would be nothing without her!

Yeah having a baby definitely changed me! I was just some stupid kid who wanted to go out and have fun and didnt give a damn about school, life, everything.

Then my boyfriend and i made some silly mistake, and it, she has saved us from ourselves :)

yeah i guess your right, the only way to fix the problem is properly educate kids about sex, that it actually does lead to pregnancy and babies! i think most teens have forgotten that!

But yeah this couple, i can't even think of an appropriate word to describe how cruel and sick they are. They really need help!

Tine - posted on 01/13/2011

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What strength Sarah, to stand up to your family! Good on you. But you have such a beautiful reward in your daughter.

Having a baby just changes you ... I now think that the popularity of abortion as a form of birth control is reflective of the general sorry state of things. Quick fixes, easy solutions, disposable everything. Nothing has the value it should, not even human life (much less animals' lives).

I feel that the solution is at the other end of the problem - education that sex is not just another form of entertainment, but can and frequently does result in the making of a human being.

Of course abortion is neccesary in some cases, there's no point being dualistic about it, but so much of the time it could just be avoided. And in the case of the couple under discussion it's especially heinous because they knowingly created these babies with the understanding that they would kill them off should they prove to be the wrong sex. I don't want to live in a society which condones that!!

Sarah - posted on 01/12/2011

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Yeah i guess it would help you to understand even more.
I've always hated the idea and when i got pregnant at 15, the family was really forceful and i was almost sure i'd have to have an abortion because of them! Luckily i stuck to my guns and just refused it and now i have my baby girl :)
But that really made me understand how awful it is. In some extreme situations, yes it is understandable to abort, but at the time i just couldnt imagine girls just off to the abortion clinic like it meant nothing! Just another day off to get their usual contraception!!
This couple makes me feel physically sick for what they did to their twinies!

Tine - posted on 01/12/2011

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Thank you Sarah :-) xo
Yeah I really feel the issue nowadays, rather than just thinking abstractly about it as I used to...

Sarah - posted on 01/12/2011

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good one Tine! you are so right! and i am actually even more worked up about it after reading that!
I'm terribly sorry for your loss :(

Tine - posted on 01/12/2011

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I think that this woman needs serious counselling, not IVF. She is obviously suffering horribly from the loss of her daughter, and while this is understandable, I fail to see how killing off more babies (when is a baby a baby? six weeks gestation? Twelve? twenty?) could be helping.

Obviously abortion should be a legal option, but it shouldn't be used as a form of retrospective birth control, and nor should it be used to pander to individuals who really need other kinds of help.

It was not until I was pregnant with my beautiful daughter that I fully understood what abortion means. Before discovering at 6 weeks that her heart was already beating and her brain developing, I thought that the decision should be left to the individual. Now I feel that the gravity of ending a life, no matter how early on in gestation, should be properly felt, and taken into account, socially and individually. I think it's never ok to kill off a foetus for any but the gravest of reasons. I recently lost a pregnancy, and this reinforced how incredibly precious and miraculous every baby is, how lucky I am to have my daughter, and how grateful we must be for every one. Choosing to abort healthy twins for no other reason than that they are not of the desired sex to 'replace' a lost sibling seems heinous and truly crazy to me.

[deleted account]

I think it's ridiculous. Once again, people can't be happy with what they've been given: precious, helathy children. Who gives a shit what gender your child is? I have 2 daughters. We may not have any more children, but in the event we decide to, neither my husband nor I care if it's another girl or a little boy. Sure it would be great to have a boy, but really, does it matter that much?
As far as the couple mentioned here, don't people have to undergo some sort of counseling or something before they're allowed to undergo IVF? Just to make sure they're of sound mind to have more children, to make sure they're not doing exactly what it sounds like this couple is doing/ I don't get it. Whether they succeed in having another girl or not, it won't be the same little girl they lost, and now they have the blood of 2 little boys on their hands. What crap!

Sarah - posted on 01/11/2011

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Kelly, sorry to jump it here.. i get what you are saying.
I would be upset about twins being aborted regardless of the circumstances, but this situation is particularly awful because her reasons are so selfish. It wasn't because she was too young, or couldn't financially support them, father was a jerk etc, it was purely because they were boys. Yes the outcome is the same, but if this woman wasn't so damn selfish and had some morals the babies wouldn't have died :( I think she deserves all the judgment and criticism she gets because she went so public about it, and when you do that you know that there is going to be a whole lot of people really hurt by your decision.

[deleted account]

Okay Shannen, I think I get what you are saying. It is okay to get an abortion if the mother does not want a child at all, but it is despicable to get an abortion because the mother does not want a child of a certain sex.

I guess I just find them both equally despicable. If the twins were in the womb of a single mom who aborted, no one would think worse of her. It sounds as though people are upset because she aborted a "perfectly healthy set of twins", but the twins die in either situation. The result is the same regardless of the mother's reasons for aborting, thus, the reason simply does not matter; she should not be judged any more harshly than a woman who aborts her children for any other reason.

Vegemite - posted on 01/11/2011

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this story makes me sick to my stomach and deeply ashamed that it happened in my country. To kill precious little babies just because they weren't the sex they desired. I hope this couple can't have anymore children at least until they have overcome the obvious mental illness they are suffering at the loss of their daughter. I feel so sad for them but horrified by their actions at the same time.

Sarah - posted on 01/10/2011

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That is a medical reason so thats different to what the couple in the article have done, and i see no problem with that :)
And what do you mean wait 9 months of pregnancy to be surprised when they can tell you what you're having at 20 weeks?

User - posted on 01/10/2011

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Yes, I would. My first pregnancy with aboy was terrible. I was allergic to his testosterone and his placenta and just had a terrible time with it.....so yes if I wanted to get pregnant I would go through gender selection because I dont want to deal with 9 months of pregnancy to just be surprised again.

Sarah - posted on 01/10/2011

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I don't know what this whole categorising people as pro-choice or pro-life is, i've never heard it before so i don't know what i am..
I actually do think they should NOT be allowed to do it! I would love to have been able to stop them.
Although i am glad that abortion is available, aborting 2 healthy boys after planning for a baby (natural or IVF) is an outrageous abuse of the system! People seem to think its okay to abort for whatever reason they feel like, and although it is legal and it is their choice it is immoral and just plain wrong! I'm not out to change a law, but it would be nice if this couple had some morals! How many babies are they going to kill?
And gender selection? Why mess with nature and create designer babies when every single new born baby is perfect! boy or girl! I get that someone with 10 boys might want a girl, but thats not always how it works and if they would not be satisfied with a boy, and would kill that boy because hes 'not good enough' then they shouldn't be getting pregnant!
I am sorry for the loss of their daughter, thats tragic but as i've already said they cannot replace her. They need help.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, i'm sorry if i have, thats just how i see it.

Sal - posted on 01/10/2011

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i am toying with the idea of another baby, i have both a boy (from my 1st marriage) and girls with my husband i know am very lucky, an have love having baby girls and my baby boy, the one thing that is really stopping me from having another one (apart from my age and the thought of sleep deprivation all over again) is having a son, i would love my husband to have a baby son,( my son was 8ish when i met my hubby), but his mum is soooooo anti girls (read MIL thread from last week-she is vile), i couldn't handle her complete change of attitude between the girls and boys, she hates her sisters, her daughter, her daughters daughter, me and is quiet cool to my girls, while she is clearly biased to my hubby and her grandson (not my son), i would never choose to do gender selection i will just have to decide if another baby is right for us and deal with the MIL, if i were sure to have a girl, i would be almost certain to have another one...would i terminate a boy.......NO NO NO

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Kelly - if they conceived naturally and still aborted those boys I would be just as upset people like this do not deserve anymore children

Nikkole - posted on 01/10/2011

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I think this is very sad you should be happy if its a boy or girl as long as your baby is healthy i wouldn't have cared if i had 2 boys or 2 girls and i wouldn't have kept on going whos to say you will get what you want?

[deleted account]

For me, the reason is irrelevant.....abort at anytime, for any reason. I might not like it, but a choice is a choice!

[deleted account]

Kelly, I totally get you, but I also agree with the other ladies. I think you're right in theory, and what you've said is always my argument as well, but because we're human, human emotion is brought into it and I think people have a hard time setting aside their emotions when discussing these types of topics.

[deleted account]

Kelly i get what your saying. The difference it makes to me is that they aborted and want to go staright back to trying for their girl. Thats where i get annoyed at them.
Most women who Abort don't do it because they want to, most do it because of circumstance at that time in their lives. So for this couple to do it for their reasons, IMO makes it wrong.

Isobel - posted on 01/10/2011

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But that's my point...the pro-choicers here aren't saying that she shouldn't be ALLOWED to have an abortion...just that they are grossed out by the fact that she did.

Most pro-choice people are not the hard-core anything at any time for any reason...most don't agree with abortion at all...they just understand the necessity for abortions to be available.

[deleted account]

My point is, this woman aborted because she did not want the babies she was carrying. The reason she did not want them is irrelevant.

Am I just going in circles or is anyone getting this?

If no one would be upset if she aborted twins because she got pregnant on accident, how can they be upset with her for aborting them just because she got pregnant on purpose? They are just fetuses in either situation. The babies have the same rights in either situation. The mother has the same rights in either situation.


I don't know why they are using IVF, but perhaps she had her tubes cut after the birth of the last baby girl. In America, if you sign for it before giving birth they do it at basically the same time, so if they did not know the baby would die, she may not have been able to stop the tubal.

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To me aborting a baby whether conceived naturally or via IVF because it is the wrong sex is immoral and absolutely disgusting...although I am pro-life so most abortion is immoral and disgusting IMO.

Becky - posted on 01/10/2011

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Would you (general you) be less upset if they conceived naturally through sex and just aborted all of the boys until they got a girl?

No, I would be equally upset. I think aborting because the child is not the gender you were hoping for is despicable. Not to mention that you can't find out the gender until 12 weeks - and at that point it's iffy - so this would be a late abortion, which, except for medical reasons, I also think is despicable.

Rosie - posted on 01/10/2011

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does anybody know WHY they are using IVF? it seems rather odd to me for someone to spend tons of money on that when they could just do it the natural way.

Isobel - posted on 01/10/2011

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Believing that somebody has the right to choose and liking the choice that they make are two different things.

While the pro-choice ladies on this thread have said over and over that they shouldn't have done it...I don't think any of them would advocate changing a law so that she wouldn't be able to.

[deleted account]

I agree with what you are saying, Tara, but there are no limitations on who can/cannot have an abortion, and most pro-choice people agree that there should be no such limitations on abortion--a rape victim, a woman who got pregnant having sex irresponsibly, and a mom who doesn't want any more kids of a certain gender all have the same rights within this system. What this mother did may have been very selfish, the majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons, but she did not abuse the system or do anything that is illegal in anyway, so we have no right to judge her, or anyone else, for it.
Those twins have the same rights as any other fetuses and the mother has the same rights as any other pregnant woman.

[deleted account]

Jodi, that's what I'm saying--They didn't do anything illegal. We should not make what they did illegal. Thus, they should not be judged any more harshly than someone who had an abortion because they didn't want their baby for any other reason.
The basics of the situation are the same, no fetus has a legal right to be protected from abortion, regardless of the way it was conceived. She had an abortion to get rid of a pregnancy she did not want, it does not matter why. She should not have to justify her reasons because abortion is legal for everyone.

Would you (general you) be less upset if they conceived naturally through sex and just aborted all of the boys until they got a girl?

Jane - posted on 01/10/2011

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I have two kids...a 20 year old daughter and a 17 year old son. When it was time to start trying to conceive with my son, we got a book "How to Choose the Sex of Your Baby" so we could try for a boy. Whether it worked or just coincidence, we had a boy. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to select the gender you want.



EDITED TO ADD: OK, now I've read the link. Those people are dispicable. Do I think it's OK to try to up your chances of having one gender or the other? Yes, however, aborting because they are not the gender you want? That's disgusting!

[deleted account]

From this article it sounds to me as though they are grieving and want to somehow replace the daughter they lost, my fear is if they do have another daughter she won't live up to their expectations because she will never replace the lost daughter (even if she was only a few days old when she died) - we can't replace people.

I watched a programme on tv a couple of years ago (I think) called 8 boys and wanting a girl and that made me sad for the boys because the moms in the show were so focused on having a daughter, a couple of them even made it seem like the children they had were not good enough because they weren't girls which I feel is disgusting and incredibly unfair.

I understand wanting to have a certain sex, with our first we didn't care at all, just being pregnant was so brilliant but this time round yes I would love to have a daughter because I have always wanted one of each sex, however, it isn't that important to me because we aren't going to fnd out the sex. If I do have another boy though (which I think I'm going to) I know I will definately want another child to try and have a daughter, however I would never select a gender, I will have the genders I am supposed to have and if that is all boys I am ecstatic especially considering I shouldn't be able to have children :-)

I agree with what some of the others have said that when we start allowing gender selection for vanity reasons it is morally wrong, there are races of people who place more value on one sex (usually male as they carry on the family name). I feel that if your not going to be happy to have your child regardless of their gender you are not mature enough to have a child!

It also disgusts me that the couple have flaunted the IVF process so much by using it but then aborting the fetuses because they are the 'wrong' sex. There are so many people who are struggling to have children and can't get pregnant even with IVF, yet these people choose to kill their babies because they are not what they 'ordered', this is not the actions of normal stable people, they need help I honestly don't think they are stable enough for another child yet! Maybe if they are given counseling and realise that they cannot replace their lost daughter they will be able to move on and focus on the children they are already lucky enough to have.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/8-boy...

Tara - posted on 01/10/2011

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I am pro-choice. But...I think this couple is selfish.
As to the OP.
No and I don't agree with gender selection except when having one sex over the other will prevent a sex-specific genetic disease/disorder/illness/abnormality etc. from occurring.
I don't believe in gender selection for personal choice.
I fear for our future as a species when we start choosing which sex is more desirable to conceive and carry to term.
It's messing with a balance that is not ours to mess with.
That's my take.

Gina - posted on 01/10/2011

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@ Kelly, OK when I said IVF is for couples who can't have kids, I didn't explain so I'll try to make sense now.I don't agree with how this couple used IVF,they were pregnant with twin boys,but decided 'No we want a girl'.so they got rid of the boys and want to use IVF to get a girl.I just feel that's so wrong.The parents are in pain, get them help, not another baby.I'm sorry if I'M not making sense,but that's the best I got now.

Jodi - posted on 01/09/2011

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Some aren't no. I will say my ex was one of them. But he flipped out when *I* chose not to change my name, so we won't count him :P

But even my husband, as forward thinking as he is, is happy that he does have a son. I think it is a bit of a tradition that may breed out in the next generation.

But I do see your point :)

Sharon - posted on 01/09/2011

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Kelly - I'm a pro choice also.

those people wanted a baby. SPECIFICALLY a baby girl. they could have used sperm sorting to increase their odds of getting a girl but didn't and instead aborted two perfectly healthy (as far as we know) fetuses for the reason that they weren't good enough since they weren't girls.

the reason why prochoice advocates say there doesn't need to be a reason is because ultimately its no ones business but the woman who is pregnant. If people start trying to put limits and conditions on who and when people can have an abortion - someone with a legitmate reason to have an abortion will be denied one because of the way the laws are worded.

Sharon - posted on 01/09/2011

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LOL not trying to poke ya Jodi - but then maybe Aus isn't quite as enlightened as american men?

I'm also talking about the future in my later post - where (presumably) all the worlds' population will be more enlightened.

[deleted account]

Joli asked why I was surprised that pro-choicers didn't think it was okay to abort a baby based on gender.



My answer is this. Most pro-choicers I have spoken with and heard from here say that a woman should have the right to abort regardless of her reasons, that she should not have to "justify" her choice or reasons to anyone (That usually comes up in debates where people suggest making abortions illegal for anyone except rape victims and medical situations). So, if it is okay to have an abortion because she slept with someone she doesn't want to raise a kid with, or because she already has all the kids she wants, I don't see it as any different that having an abortion because she already has all the boys she wants. The only difference here is that she paid a lot of money to try to conceive the baby. What if she and her husband had done IVF then decided to divorce and she decided to abort the baby because she didn't wan to be a single mom? Would that be different?



To me, if abortion is legal for anyone, for any reason, then anyone should be able to get one for any reason they wish.



As for IVF, it is not only for people who CANNOT conceive, it is for anyone who chooses not to conceive via sex. What about lesbian couples who are perfectly capable of conception, but choose to use a sperm donor? What about a single woman who wishes to become a mother, but chooses not to have a relationship with a man?

Jodi - posted on 01/09/2011

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Yes, I see your point Sharon, but if westernised countries are under population control, other countries will be as well, adn that would be where my concerns lay. It would still have ripple effect on us.

I guess I just can't see the gender issue because I really didn't care a great deal what I had. Also, I still know a lot of men who still have that attitude that they need a son to carry on the family name, although they do accept what they get. I'm not sure that we are quite there yet.

[deleted account]

Sharon - Sorry. I think i might just give up trying to make sense today, come back another day, and say i agree with Jodi.

Sharon - posted on 01/09/2011

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Shannen- you didn't make a lot of sense.

Jodi - But its different in "modern" countries like Australia and the USA - people don't always choose just boys or just girls. Actually - in a small survey of my friends - its about 25girls/25boys/50don't give a crap. So you'd wind up with a diverse sex population anyway.

In China - right now - they still prefer boys. Its changing, slowly, but it is changing over there.

Jodi - posted on 01/09/2011

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@ Sharon

I think if we were ever under population control, that would be a really good reason to BAN sex selection, because messing with nature's natural gender selection can have really serious social implications. I mean, look at China's one child policy and how that has had some really negative effects on society......too many boys, and it has resulted in some terrible consequences.

[deleted account]

Jodi - nope i was 18 and didn't have health insurance then.
Emma - yup from townsville miscarried on the Tuesday and the Abortionist had to be flown up from Brisbane early because he wasn't due up until monday

[deleted account]

Sharon, I only wanted girls, no matter how many kids i had i only wanted girls. Things didn't work out like that and i wouldn't change a thing now i love my boys but if i had the choice i would still prefer girls which is also why i am so against gender selection. If we could choose then one sex or the other would over populate.

Gina - posted on 01/09/2011

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I understand want you're saying,I had a girl and honestly, the only thing I was worried about while trying to have another ,was having a healthy baby.My family have lost 3 children to cancer so we don't care about the sex, just a healthy baby,but I can understand where families who have a few of one sex wanting the other, this couple killed twin boys to get want their want. I just feel that is so wrong.I've also read about about population control and honestly? It scares the crap out of me , if that happens, how far will people go? Ok it's 3am I'm off to bed...

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