God did not create the universe!!

Katherine - posted on 09/02/2010 ( 58 moms have responded )

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LONDON (Reuters) – God did not create the universe and the "Big Bang" was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics, the eminent British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book.

In "The Grand Design," co-authored with U.S. physicist Leonard Mlodinow, Hawking says a new series of theories made a creator of the universe redundant, according to the Times newspaper which published extracts on Thursday.

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

Hawking, 68, who won global recognition with his 1988 book "A Brief History of Time," an account of the origins of the universe, is renowned for his work on black holes, cosmology and quantum gravity.

Since 1974, the scientist has worked on marrying the two cornerstones of modern physics -- Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, which concerns gravity and large-scale phenomena, and quantum theory, which covers subatomic particles.

His latest comments suggest he has broken away from previous views he has expressed on religion. Previously, he wrote that the laws of physics meant it was simply not necessary to believe that God had intervened in the Big Bang.

He wrote in A Brief History ... "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God."

In his latest book, he said the 1992 discovery of a planet orbiting another star other than the Sun helped deconstruct the view of the father of physics Isaac Newton that the universe could not have arisen out of chaos but was created by God.

"That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions -- the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass, far less remarkable, and far less compelling evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he writes.

Hawking, who is only able to speak through a computer-generated voice synthesizer, has a neuro muscular dystrophy that has progressed over the years and left him almost completely paralyzed.

He began suffering the disease in his early 20s but went on to establish himself as one of the world's leading scientific authorities, and has also made guest appearances in "Star Trek" and the cartoons "Futurama" and "The Simpsons."

Last year he announced he was stepping down as Cambridge University's Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, a position once held by Newton and one he had held since 1979.

"The Grand Design" is due to go on sale next week.



Wow, gutsy huh?

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Krista - posted on 09/03/2010

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I guess for me, my beef is that the faithful always credit their god with everything great that happens to them, but if something bad happens, then it's the work of Satan, or of sinful humans. If one football team wins, they're cheering and thanking their god. But the losing team isn't saying, "Wow...god really let us down today. He didn't help us at ALL!"



And now, with every new scientific discovery, "oh, that's just more proof of god's existence and how awesome he is!"



I mean, come on! If I decided I wanted to believe that there was an invisible leprechaun living in the Chrysler Building who created the universe and who was responsible for every single good thing that happens, would I be taken seriously? If a cure for cancer was found, and I loudly claimed it as proof of the leprechaun's existence and benevolence, would I be taken seriously?



So why, why, why, why is this completely fabricated notion of a Christian god taken so seriously when there is no more proof or validity behind it than there is behind my leprechaun?



I mean shit, before Christianity, there were other faiths that were JUST as certain that their gods were responsible for everything in the world. We now call those faiths mythologies.



So how can you look back at ALL of those dead faiths, and all of those fallen gods, and still be so frigging CERTAIN that your god and your religion are the utter and complete truth, with everybody else just being misguided and in need of "saving"?

Petra - posted on 09/02/2010

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I just have a question though - for those who think that the universe could not create itself and that God had to have at least helped, who created God? If the answer is that God has always been, then why isn't the assumption that matter (the universe, something, a lack of nothingness) has always been also valid? Not trying to be argumentative at all, just curious. I'm not much into theology so I don't know the religious position on this.

[deleted account]

Ok guys to answer some of your questions surrounding God and the idea of it. Please bear in mind these are just my beliefs (Christian) from what I have been learnt.

1) Loureen I agree that it is arrogant of us to assume that God has a human form, however, many tend to think of God as having a human form because the Bible states that we were made in his image. I tend to think that God is above a form though that he is more a type of energy rather than a form, and the image we were created in is in regards to his ideals and morals (love, forgiveness etc).

2) "If it is generally accepted that God is responsible for things never even mentioned in the bible, why can't other deviations from biblical notions be accepted too?"

I believe the Bible is a storybook that is there for us to learn from, unfortunately it was written by man and so has many prejudices and biases in which is why it should not be used as gospel. I believe that things such as homosexuality are NOT a sin (and I am quite passionate on this) and it annoys me when people try to use religion to belittle people (sorry rant over). Anyhoo back to the question I believe that the Bible does not tell us everything we need to know and common sense needs to prevail (how can you follow the main points of love and forgiveness when you are berating a person for sinning?).

3) Krista I believe good and bad both come from God we need opposites because if everything was 'good' we would not experience it really (and it is impossible because if everything was good something would not be as good and so is 'bad').

4) "So how can you look back at ALL of those dead faiths, and all of those fallen gods, and still be so frigging CERTAIN that your god and your religion are the utter and complete truth, with everybody else just being misguided and in need of "saving"?" - I do not think that everyone needs saving my interpretation of not following God is not not believing in him or questioning him but doing completely 'bad' things and leading a life that would not please him (which I believe is a life which society finds unacceptable (in an unquestionable way) such as murderers and rapist and paedophiles etc.

Also I have said it before but nobody can be 100% certain until the end and hopefully I'll meet my maker and go to heaven with my family and friends.

5) Katherine I'll go with the chicken came first ;-D

....or it could have been the egg

....no definately the chicken gqtm

Finally Jessica WHY would you want to speak chav? Although scarily I understood most of it but wtf is with the breadbin is that supposed to mean friend?

Jennifer - posted on 09/02/2010

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i think what he is saying is that the universe would have been created with, or without god's help so belief that god set something in motion that would have done just fine on its own is simply a belief in redundancy...if that makes sense to anyone not inside my head, i'm not sure :P

i'm looking forward to reading it

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Katherine - posted on 09/11/2010

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I ordered mine from the library....might be a while, but Tanya if you want to post some excerpts that would be awesome.

Johnny - posted on 09/11/2010

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Ours just came in the mail yesterday. Hubby has started it. We watched the co-author, Leonard Mlodinow, on Larry King last night with a Jesuit priest and Deepak Chopra. Fascinating conversation. Some of it really blew my mind and really expanded my thinking. I am really looking forward to getting my hands on it. Apparently Mlodinow & Chopra are planning to write a book together too. I've never read Chopra's stuff, but it sounds like it might be quite a fascinating read as well.

Tanya - posted on 09/10/2010

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Anyone reading yet? I am going to let my brother finish before I start.

he just explained the double slit experiment to me and how we might all be holograms. Neat!

Kristal - posted on 09/04/2010

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hahaha, i'm liking the comment about needing an epidural, i will be looking out for this book, maybe even get it for my kindle.

Katherine - posted on 09/04/2010

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A chav is a kind of wanker that is rapidly becoming the new dickhead stereotype for the true English fucker, overthrowing the previous bowler-and-brolly archetype we all secretly wish were true

Johnny - posted on 09/04/2010

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Ah, I had to google both of those terms. White trash, I see. That clears up quite a bit of the last page for me. Yikes.

[deleted account]

I go for laugh, unfortunately they do not realise how stupid they sound and look, it's a shame really some of them are actually intelligent if only they applied themselves :-)

Jessica - posted on 09/04/2010

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Finally Jessica WHY would you want to speak chav? Although scarily I understood most of it but wtf is with the breadbin is that supposed to mean friend?

I like to take the piss out of them lol. 'Breadbin' is a term used to take the piss out of the chav term 'bredrin' which is an idiotic and uneducated version of 'brethren'.

I either have to take the piss out of chav speak and laugh, or cry at the uneducated and unwilling to learn chavvy little tw*ts. I can't cry all the time so I take the piss most of the time. lol.

[deleted account]

Haha! When I said it's too early I meant too early in the morning. *giggles* I'm still waking up and needed to gather my thoughts but I think it would be a great idea to post different passages from the book and we can disect them?! Thanks Katherine

Katherine - posted on 09/03/2010

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Ok, I'll go buy the book next week and start posting excerpts....

[deleted account]

Petra, Krista.....completely agree. It's too early and I have nothing else to say at this time. To be continued...

Katherine - posted on 09/03/2010

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I love the points that are being made. Who cares if it doesn't EXACTLY talk about the OP? I think it's fascinating how with each new discovery we do say God did it. Instead of just being content with the fact that science had a part in it and there IS science and science DOES back up everything (almost).
Did the chicken come before the egg? Or vice versa? I hate to throw that analogy out there but that's what we're asking essentially. What came first?? If energy cannot be created or destroyed, then it always WAS. Oye, I'm giving myself a brain lock.

Krista - posted on 09/03/2010

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I think I know what Petra's getting at. There are all of these scientific discoveries about our universe that are not mentioned in the bible. But as soon as they're discovered, the religious are eager to claim that their god is responsible for it. It seems rather convenient, no?

And if the bible is the word of god, and he didn't mention all of this stuff, then why is it still assumed that the bible is the be-all and end-all authority on every single thing out there?

Petra - posted on 09/03/2010

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Sorry Jessica - that's me wandering off topic after not enough sleep, too much coffee and idle discussion with my partner. I just find it interesting that the idea of God is broadening to accommodate new discoveries - which, I think, is a good thing. But a lot of God-based ideas remain static (homosexuality as a sin, etc.). My intent isn't to open the flood gates to debate about something that has nothing to do with the original post... even though my posting this may seem contrary to that statement.

Jessica - posted on 09/03/2010

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If it is generally accepted that God is responsible for things never even mentioned in the bible, why can't other deviations from biblical notions be accepted too?

Can you elaborate on this please?

Petra - posted on 09/03/2010

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Is it just me or does it seem like the notion of God keeps expanding to encompass and account for advances in science and knowledge? Once upon a time God created the earth, Adam and Eve, yadda yadda. Now that we know there is a vast universe with black holes, etc., God has become responsible for all of this as well. If it is generally accepted that God is responsible for things never even mentioned in the bible, why can't other deviations from biblical notions be accepted too?

Jessica - posted on 09/03/2010

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Lol, I'm in a rather excitable mood today. :D



You may not understand the terminology unless your from the UK. It's chav speak lol.



EDIT: Or rather a piss take of chav speak.

Charlie - posted on 09/03/2010

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I dont really see how it disproves that god doesnt exist either , she may very well have set off the reaction that created the universe but i just cannot buy that a higher power in the image of humans is at the helm of this universe , i dont know but it seems a little arrogant of humans to assume the highest power would take on our image of all the things in the universe .

Anyhoo.... I ♥ Hawking his explanation makes a whole lot more sense than the alternative .

Jodi - posted on 09/03/2010

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Huh???



Sorry, that is not a response to the OP (I am getting around to that), that's me being baffled by that last post.....

[deleted account]

Thanks Jennifer I understood why he was saying what he was saying I just don't think that he is right, I believe that God started the creation of the universe by setting free the energy needed for it to happen (that being said I don't think that God designed the universe per se, more so it was like an experiment to see what happened).

Krista - posted on 09/02/2010

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So basically the universe happened and God said, "Um yeah...I meant to do that. Yeah, that's it! Tremble before my power, bitches!"

[deleted account]

I cannot see how this negates the theory of there being a God who set the creation of the universe into motion.

Jessica - posted on 09/02/2010

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"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

^^ My response is, so what? That seems like a perfectly logical scientific explanation to me. So why does it necessarily exclude a higher being from the picture? Why is it so hard to believe that God created the universe, and this how he did it? Just because God is behind something, doesn't mean it doesn't have an explanation..

Katherine - posted on 09/02/2010

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According to religious beliefs, God was not created and he cannot be destroyed. Kind of like energy.
This is kind of long but it will really answer your question, Petra.
* It is easy to make an argument for God's existence from a cosmological standpoint. As the years have gone by, a growing amount of scientific data has accumulated which negates atheistic assumptions about how matter and the cosmos came into existence and how it has arrived at its present condition. As a science teacher and public lecturer on the compatibility of belief in God and science, I have, been impressed with an increasing awareness on the part of many scientists and theologians that science and religion are symbiotic disciplines. One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what is the origin of God? If God created matter/energy, and designed the systems that have propelled matter into its present arrangement, who or what accomplished that for God? Why is it any more reasonable to believe that God has always been than it is to say that matter has always been? As Carl Sagan has said, If we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?From a purely scientific standpoint, it is easy to demonstrate that matter cannot be eternal in nature. The universe is expanding from what appears to be a beginning point in space/time, which appears to be a one time event. Hydrogen is the basic fuel of the cosmos, powering all stars and other energy sources in space. If the fuel of the universe has been used eternally, that fuel will eventually be depleted, but the evidence is that the cosmological gas gauge, while moving toward empty, is yet a long way from being there—a condition incompatible with an eternal universe. The second law of thermodynamics insists that the cosmos is moving toward a condition of disorder, sometimes referred to as heat death. Even in an oscillating universe, things ultimately run out of energy and die. All of these evidences, and several others we have not made reference to, show that matter cannot be eternal, as Dr. Sagan and his associates would like to believe. However, this does not mean that we automatically accept the hypothesis that God is the Creator. Why is it not equally invalid to suggest that God has always been? The problem here is that many people have a mistaken concept of God. If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God’s origin is valid. However, such a concept of God is alien to the Bible and to common sense. Consider the following descriptions of God from the Bible: John 4: 24 God is a Spirit:... Matthew 16:17 ...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should...; Obviously, the descriptions and concepts of God given in these passages are that God is a spiritual entity. He exists outside of the three-dimensional, physical world in which we live. The Bible further supports this concept of God in the following passages: Jeremiah 23:23-24 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? ...Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. 2 Chronicles 2:6 But who is able to build a house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Him?... Acts 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;... Not only is God described as being outside space, but He is also described as being outside of time. Consider the following: 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Psalm 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. Acts 1:7 ...It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His power. If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. The problem is like asking a student to draw a four-sided triangle. The terminology is self-contradictory. When asked 'Who or what created God?,' we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. God created time. The statement of Genesis, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, is making reference to the creation of time. The reason that things like heat death, the expansion of the universe, and the depletion of hydrogen do not apply to God is because He is outside of time. God has always been. He not only began time; He will also end it. When time ends, all matter and all mankind will enter eternity a timeless condition free of the negative things that time brings upon us now. 2 Peter 3:10-11 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,... Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. The agnostic position that there is nothing that can be said to support God's existence that cannot be said against that existence cannot, in the opinion of the author, stand in the face of this evidence.

♏*PHOENIX*♏ - posted on 09/02/2010

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I also know many people that would not only be upset but offended to the highest degree to suggest that God did not create the Universe and all in…blah, blah, blah…and a few that would roll over in there grave…
But I am intrigued to say the least. I would like to read this book…

Krista - posted on 09/02/2010

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Can't wait to read it. You guys should also check out the Mulitverse theory. It basically says that a universe can birth another universe through black holes.

Wow. I bet the universe needed one hell of an epidural for that one.

Johnny - posted on 09/02/2010

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It should be a fascinating read, although in all honesty I'll probably have my husband read it and then translate it into "non-science-geek-speak" for me. I tried reading Brief History of Time and didn't really get all of what he was saying until hubby gave me the Coles notes. The man is unimaginably brilliant.

Tanya - posted on 09/02/2010

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Can't wait to read it. You guys should also check out the Mulitverse theory. It basically says that a universe can birth another universe through black holes.

Katherine - posted on 09/02/2010

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a lot of people I know they would have a heart attack to read that. Or they would just roll their eyes.

Katherine - posted on 09/02/2010

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Exactly. He's not discounting a God at all. He's just saying God didn't create he universe.

Jocelyn - posted on 09/02/2010

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I think I might have to read that! I don't find it gutsy at all, I find it to be a straight forward, logical, explanation. And even tho I believe in a higher power/energy I don't believe that they created the world, but that they sat by and watched it happen :P lol.

Tara - posted on 09/02/2010

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I am going to wait this one out until I read the book (which I will if the library will get it in for me.). However for the time being I would have to say that I agree with some of this article, I have always found it rather arrogant that one group of people can claim that their one god created the universe to please us.
Our home on earth is infinitesimally small in comparison to the Universe as a whole. We are in reality very insignificant in the grand scheme of things. So... I will read it and post again, or start a new one.
:)

Katherine - posted on 09/02/2010

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Well, he says gravity is the reason thng DO exist. So if you think of it that way, where did gravity come from? Did God create it? Has it always been? If energy cant b created or destroyed....h do you wrap your head around THAT??

[deleted account]

Hawking has a point, but I still can't help but question that theory. If there wasn't God(s), would gravity really exist, would physics really exist. Though, the chaos theory could probably explain that away, so that there would be no need for a God(s), I just (personally) don't think that the universe could create itself on it's own without a little "push" from something or someone.

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