I know I shouldn't do this... DRAMA ALERT

Jackie - posted on 12/09/2010 ( 132 moms have responded )

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http://www.circleofmoms.com/moms-who-nee...





"I know so many people that claim to be agnostic, atheists or say that they hate organized religion. And yet every december they put up a Christmas tree hang stockings and go buy presents for their family. This bugs me so much!!! Christmas is a Christian holiday. I could see someone saying "we do it for the kids" Why? To teach your kids to be hiporcates like you. All of the december holidays, Christmas, Hanukkah ect are for people who have faith. If you don't believe Christ is your savior, you shouldn't be wishing people a Merry Christmas. They just want to take part in the fun part of the holiday without being labeled or making a commitment." - not me





I know I shouldn't start a bunch of Drama but i knew this would ruffle some feathers on DM. I was almost at a loss for words.

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Isobel - posted on 12/09/2010

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Santa Claus, also known as Saint Nicholas, Father Christmas, Kris Kringle, or simply "Santa", is a figure which was derived from the Dutch figure of Sinterklaas, a historical, legendary figure who in many Western cultures, is said to bring gifts to the homes of the good children during the late evening and overnight hours of Christmas Eve, December 24[1] or on his Feast Day, December 6 (Saint Nicholas Day).[2] The legend may have part of its basis in hagiographical tales concerning the historical figure of gift giver Saint Nicholas. A nearly identical story is attributed by Greek and Byzantine folklore to Basil of Caesarea. Basil's feast day on January 1 is considered the time of exchanging gifts in Greece.

While Saint Nicholas was originally portrayed wearing bishop's robes, today Santa Claus is generally depicted as a plump, jolly, white-bearded man wearing a red coat with white collar and cuffs, white-cuffed red trousers, and black leather belt and boots (images of him rarely have a beard with no moustache). This image became popular in the United States and Canada in the 19th century due to the significant influence of caricaturist and political cartoonist Thomas Nast.[3][4][5] This image has been maintained and reinforced through song, radio, television, and films. In the United Kingdom and Europe, he is often depicted in a manner identical to the American Santa Claus, but he is commonly called Father Christmas.

A well-known folk legend associated with Santa Claus says that he lives in the far north, in a land of perpetual snow. The American version of Santa Claus says that he lives at his house on the North Pole, while Father Christmas is often said to reside in the mountains of Korvatunturi in Lapland Province, Finland. Santa Claus lives with his wife Mrs. Claus, a countless number of magical elves, and eight or nine flying reindeer. Another legend, popularized in the song Santa Claus Is Coming to Town, says that he makes a list of children throughout the world, categorizing them according to their behavior ("naughty" or "nice") and that he delivers presents, including toys, candy, and other gifts to all of the good boys and girls in the world, and sometimes coal to the naughty children, on the single night of Christmas Eve. He accomplishes this feat with the aid of the elves who make the toys in the workshop and the reindeer who pull his sleigh.

*The true story of St Nicholas is NOT christian...he was adopted (like most things)

and are you just going to ignore my other points? The tree isn't Christian, it's Pagan, the date isn't Christian, it's Pagan...The turkey isn't Christian (even the idea of a feast during the solstice is Pagan), The date...yup...Pagan.

And yes...Coca Cola invented the modern day Santa...happy Holidays everyone.

Isobel - posted on 12/09/2010

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trees are not a Christian tradition...nor is December 25th the birth date of Christ. Santa doesn't have a religion aaaaaand I don't think they ate turkey at the birth of Christ.



ps...the government has declared Dec 25th as a secular holiday (which means everybody gets paid for it regardless of what they believe in).



that is all :)

~Jennifer - posted on 12/09/2010

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Many Pagan cultures used to cut boughs of evergreen trees in December, move them into the home or temple, and decorate them. Modern-day Pagans still do. This was to recognize the winter solstice -- the time of the year that had the shortest daylight hours, and longest night of the year. This occurs annually sometime between DEC-20 to 23: most often DEC-21. They noticed that the days were gradually getting shorter; many feared that the sun would eventually disappear forever, and everyone would freeze. But, even though deciduous trees, bushes, and crops died or hibernated for the winter, the evergreen trees remained green. They seemed to have magical powers that enabled them to withstand the rigors of winter.



Not having evergreen trees, the ancient Egyptians considered the palm tree to symbolize resurrection. They decorated their homes with its branches during the winter solstice.



"The first decorating of an evergreen tree began with the heathen Greeks and their worship of their god Adonia, who allegedly was brought back to life by the serpent Aessulapius after having been slain."



The ancient Pagan Romans decorated their "trees with bits of metal and replicas of their god, Bacchus [a fertility god]. They also placed 12 candles on the tree in honor of their sun god" Their mid-winter festival of Saturnalia started on DEC-17 and often lasted until a few days after the Solstice.



In Northern Europe, the ancient Germanic people tied fruit and attached candles to evergreen tree branches, in honor of their god Woden. Trees were viewed as symbolizing eternal life. This is the deity after which Wednesday was named. The trees joined holly, mistletoe, the wassail bowl and the Yule log as symbols of the season.



All predated Christianity.

Rachel - posted on 12/10/2010

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amen to Desiree and everyone who realizes that to have faith in anything and to claim a religion is to be tolerant, that's the biggest problem I have with the Christian religion and the people, well organized religion and the social aspect anyway. And before anyone jumps, I am a Christian. Our belief is to be tolerant sadly it's not remembered.

However on that...just like was stated, the history of Christmas has nothing to do with Christ's birth. That would be from...ahh dare I say it pagan beliefs (and I use the word as the meaning for beliefs other than Christian not wrong, immoral, or anything else; I use it for a point) The Catholic church saw that blending their holidays with those "unruly non-believers" (please read sarcastically) lead to the non-believers accepting the Catholic church with less of a fight. Volia Christmas and well most of the holidays we claim as Christian. And the Christmas tree, not Christian. Christmas now is, like said in the stream before, a blending of just about everything.

See here's my complaint, before anyone, Christian or not can go spouting the word hypocrite or anything else, do your research. Otherwise you find out that all those pretty little stories you were told by your organized social group called the "church" is just that, pretty stories. Other faiths are not wrong, just different. And a holiday that blends faiths and beliefs does not make people hypocrites, just different from you. I'm sorry, I really despise this argument, it's for stupid people. Ignorant you can educate, stupid you just can't fix.

C. - posted on 12/09/2010

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"If you don't believe Christ is your savior, you shouldn't be wishing people a Merry Christmas."



Um, sorry.. But that's a load. You don't have to be religious to hope that someone has a good holiday and you sure as heck don't have to be religious to celebrate it. I'm a Christian, but I just can't agree with that ignorance, sorry (to whoever it was originally from).

This conversation has been closed to further comments

132 Comments

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Ez - posted on 06/25/2011

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** Mod Alert **

As this thread is 6 months old, I will be locking it to further comments. Anyone interested is welcome to start a new thread if they wish.

Erin - DM Mod

Jessica - posted on 06/25/2011

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Because it was put at YULE time.... aka: NOT a christian holiday. YULE(also known as bringing in the green-a celebration of evergreens mostly) is where the "Christmas tree" came from. gifts are exchanged their too. So, in order to avoid unnecessary confusion, ppl just lump them together for the kids sake.

Erica - posted on 12/13/2010

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I may not be as strong in my Christian faith as I should be, but for our family it is a time to come together with family and enjoy the gift of life, giving and Christ. As for other people who have different beliefs, I don't care. I have my religion and if they would like to celebrate Christmas with a tree and lights ...that's great...just more lights for my family and I to look at as we drive by. :) Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everybody- please be careful during the holidays :)

Meghan - posted on 12/12/2010

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Damn. I need to start paying attention.
What about those of us that really just want a pack of socks but end up getting a crappy tree ornament that our toddler made in daycare, but still hang it up with pride, then spend the next 12 hours cooking and cleaning so we can spend a nice day with our family and friends all the while getting hammered off egg nogg and rum and end up screaming at our sister for being an ignorant pain in the ass?

Ahhhh love Christmas...ooops I mean the holidays.

[deleted account]

I classify myself as a non practicing Catholic I do however go to midnight mass with my family which is one of two holidays i go to church. I celebrate Christmas but I don't believe I'm a hypocrite as I was raised Catholic and I believe in God I just don't practice as often as I should

Barb - posted on 12/11/2010

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Thanks Dana, did you see my other post that i had to adopt your head to desk method? :) it's a head clearer!

[deleted account]

Ya, reporting or flagging a post just alerts the admin and moderators of that community. You're able to select from a few options and give a brief description why you're "flagging" the post, and then the mods or admin will deal with it accordingly.

Barb - posted on 12/11/2010

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but what does flagging do? Does it just send an alert or censure the poster or something else?

i do have to say, i'm glad they moved the report button over to the other side away from the "encouraging button. i always worried about hitting the wrong one.

[deleted account]

Katherine is the admin so she's the one who has to deal with all the whining and flagging and bitching. BOOHOO!

Johnny - posted on 12/11/2010

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Okay, I finished reading. Clearly she lacks the ability to comprehend what others are writing. So Dana is absolutely correct, "she's a twit!"

Barb - posted on 12/11/2010

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I thought this was neat and interesting for this thread. In the National Geographic Magazine they have a picture of St.Nicholas leading Krampus, but no story. It is under the Visions of Earth section.



http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/vision...



So who is Krampus? I know, but who do you think it is?

Johnny - posted on 12/11/2010

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Someone asked two pages ago if nookie was sex and yes, that's what I meant. What's better than a little romp under the mistletoe to work off all that turkey? That's the present I'm looking forward to :-))

I'm going to have to go back and catch up on that thread now if I want to comment on anything more recent on this thread.

C. - posted on 12/10/2010

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She deleted her OP :/ But her tone was awful.. I'm not a perfect Christian (well no one is perfect, but I'm farther from it than some..) but BOY was her attitude uncalled for!

Kate CP - posted on 12/10/2010

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That Christmas thread is giving me a headache. The woman is a fuckin' moron. >:P

Stifler's - posted on 12/10/2010

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This is the second year in a row I've been pregnant on Christmas... boooo!

Kate CP - posted on 12/10/2010

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Shauna: Nope. I'm pregnant and I can't drink...and dammit if I can't be merry THEN NO BODY CAN!!! :P

Krista - posted on 12/10/2010

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LOL! I went on a rant about this earlier in the season. Christmas trees are NOT about Christ. Stockings are NOT about Christ. Presents are NOT about Christ.
All of the above are pagan traditions. This person does not know one damn thing about what it means to be Christian during the holidays.

Jodi - posted on 12/10/2010

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Christine, I havn't seen anybody say that gift giving is a strictly pagan tradition...but i have seen (and not you, most importantly to this thread, the woman who posted the Christmas is for Christ thread in venting moms...but many many others too) christians claim that it is something only for christians to do. That was my point in my last post. It IS pagan...it also happens to be christian...and jewish and I'm sure nearly every other religion gives gifts of some sort at some time for some holiday, but many christians seem to think it's strictly "theirs". (and I dont' mean you specifically btw.)

Vegemite - posted on 12/10/2010

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Barb I might start that head to desk thing too. I have never once said people who aren't Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas, they can celebrate what the like. With the gift giving I said many cultures and religions give gifts, I didn't say there wasn't a pagan tradition of giving gifts. I know there is that tradition but it doesn't make giving gifts strictly a Pagan tradition that Christian have taken from them.

Barb - posted on 12/10/2010

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Dana Mak, what's that move you do? Head 2 desk?



Maria, let me help, (if i can).



Once upon a time before Christ was born. There was a holiday on Dec 25th called a Yule celebration.



Christ was NOT born on Dec 25th. I don't know when he was born, some say in the spring, others say in Sept, i don't know, i wasn't around.



When the Roman Catholics (ie earliest christians ever) began converting everyone into "christians" they saw they had this grand party on Dec 25th and said "hey, let's take this party and make it the birthday of Jesus"



So it wouldn't be like moving thanksgiving if your daughter's birthday fell on the same day. It would be like your daughter's birthday being May 12th and you deciding to celebrate it on Thanksgiving so everyone has to celebrate your daughter's birthday.



See the difference?

Jodi - posted on 12/10/2010

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"■Was Jesus born in a stable? Or a barn? Or a cave? The Bible does not mention any of these three places in connection with Christ’s birth, only a manger. Scripture simply reports that they laid Jesus in a manger because there was no room for him in the guest room. The Greek word used in Scripture is kataluma, and can mean guest chamber, lodging place or inn. The only other time this word was used in the New Testament, it means a furnished, large, upper story room within a private house. It is translated guest chamber, not inn (Mark 14:14-15). According to our Bible archaeology experts, Jesus was probably born in the house of relatives, but outside (under) the normal living and guest quarters. (Learn more: Was Jesus born in a stable? / What is a manger? / What is an inn?"

http://www.christiananswers.net/christma...

Jesus was very likelly not born in a stable actually. He was more than likely born in a relatives guest room, or somewhere in their house.


"The practice of exchanging gifts at a winter celebration is also pre-Christian and is from the Roman Saturnalia. They would exchange good-luck gifts called Stenae (lucky fruits). They also would have a big feast just like we do today."
http://www.zenzibar.com/articles/christm...

I'm not saying the story of St. Nickolas isn't true, but in regards to the OP and thread and to those who agree with the lady who posted the nonesense about non-christians celebrating what is a pagan tradition anyways, this goes to support the side that gift giving also has pagan roots...so therefor, it is pagan.

Stifler's - posted on 12/10/2010

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I am of the opinion that people can do whatever they want! If you think Christmas is a Christian holiday then go ahead and celebrate the birth of Christ. If you think it's about Santa and presents, go ahead and celebrate with Santa and presents. If you celebrate Hanukka or Yule or any of the other stuff I haven't heard of until now, go ahead. Who really cares? Who cares when Jesus was really born... we don't have holidays on that day anyway. Who is it hurting?

[deleted account]

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/i...

This could be an interesting read :) *reads* And it is! Using the Hebrew calendar, this website calculates the approximate dates of the births of John the Baptist and Jesus.

John the Baptist was born in the month of Nisan (the first month on the Jewish calendar), which coincides with March. Jesus was born in the month of Tishri (the seventh Jewish month), which coincides with September. During Tishri, the Jews celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, also known as Sukkot. As the website says, this explains why all the inns were full and Mary gave birth to Jesus in a stable.

So Jesus was born in September, and there's plenty of biblical evidence and even a Hebrew calendar on that site. Cites the verses and everything. I like it :)

So BAM Jesus wasn't born in the spring OR in the winter! He was born in the fall :)

Vegemite - posted on 12/10/2010

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So I'm pretty tired of people saying that giving gift on Christmas is Pagan or heathen. There are many cultures and religions who give gifts for many reasons. Here is the story of why Christians give gifts over Christmas. This particular telling of the story has been adapted for children to understand, hope you enjoy.

St Nicholas was born in 280 AD, in Patara, a city of Lycia, in Asia Minor. He became the gift giver of Myra. His gifts were given late at night, so that the gift giver's identity would remain a secret. St Nicholas was eventually named the patron saint of children, sailors, Russia and Greece.
St Nicholas was a Christian priest, who later became a bishop. He was a rich person, and traveled the country helping people, giving gifts of money and other presents. St Nicholas did not like to be seen when he gave away presents, so the children of the day were told to go to sleep quickly or he would not come! Nothing has changed and Santa Claus will not arrive this Christmas unless the children go to sleep early.

A famous story about St Nicholas, is about a poor man who had no money to give to his three daughters on their wedding day. St Nick dropped bags of gold into the stockings which the girls had left to dry by the fire. The sisters found the gold and ever since, children have hung up stockings on Christmas Eve hoping that they will be filled with presents by Christmas morning.

Despite being quite young Nicholas had earned a reputation for kindliness and wisdom. In the year 303, the Roman emperor Diocletian commanded all the citizens of the Roman Empire, which included Asia Minor, to worship him as a god.

Christians believed in one god and one god alone, so their conscience would not allow them to obey the Emperor's order. Angered by their stubbornness, Diocletian warnd the Christians that they would be imprisoned. The Emperor carried out the threat and St Nicholas who resisted too was also imprisoned. For more than five years, St Nicholas was confined to a small cell. He suffered from cold, hunger, and thirst, but he never wavered in his beliefs. In 313, when Diocletian resigned, and Constantine came to power Nicholas was released, and he returned to his post as Bishop of Myra. He continued his good works and became even wiser and more understanding by the time of his death on December 6, 343.

In the eyes of the Catholics, a saint is someone who has lived such a holy life that, after dying and going to heaven, he or she is still able to help people on earth. They often become patron to different groups of people - one such was children and many legends sprang up to explain his presence.

By 450, churches in Asia Minor and Greece were being named in honor of him. By 800, he was officially recognized as the a saint by the Eastern Catholic Church.

In the 1200s, December sixth began to be celebrated as Bishop Nicholas Day in France.

By end of the 1400s, St Nicholas was the third most beloved religious figure, after Jesus and Mary. There were more than 2000 chapels and monasteries named after him.

In the 1500s people in England stopped worshipping St Nicholas and favoured more another gift giving fgure Father Christmas. Over the centuries, St Nicholas' popularity grew, and many people in Europe made up nw stories that showed his concern for children. The name Santa Claus was derived from the Dutch Sinter Klass pronunciation of St Nicholas. Early Dutch settlers in New York (once called New Amsterdam) brought their traditions of St Nicholas. As children from other countries tried to pronunce Sinter Klass, this soon became Santa Klass, which was settled as Santa Claus. The old bishop's cloak with mitre, jewelled gloves and crozier were soon replaced with his red suit and clothing seen in other modern images.

C. - posted on 12/10/2010

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"Because Christ was born in the spring time?"

No, he was raised from the dead in the Spring (that's why we have Easter Sunday, to commemorate that moment in history). Pretty sure Christ was born in the winter.

[deleted account]

Yeah. I have one word for people like that. Saturnalia. Read it and weep.

I really don't know where I stand on the whole Christianity thing, honestly. It's so full of hypocrisy anyway.

Ha! I spelled it right! Spell check is great xD

Nikkole - posted on 12/10/2010

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Yea your not supposed to judge lol but she just seems like a bottle of crazy sauce LMAO my MIL is kinda like her in the churchy way it DRIVES ME NUTS!

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