I'm sorry, I've accidently started a vaccine debate . . .

Sneaky - posted on 04/05/2011 ( 61 moms have responded )

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So I have been venting in another group - I'm freaked out that there has been a measles outbreak in my state (NSW, Australia) and my baby hasn't had the MMR vaccine yet because she is too young. I might be more than the normal amount of freaked out because my husband caught measles when he was a baby (too young for the vaccination) and almost died. I did think that that was a realistic thing to vent about, but today I get this:

AH - posted 7 hours ago
"So, i posted most of this on a different thread but this one clearly needs a dose of reality....
I really find it disturbing that people who choose to vaccinate try and force everyone else to do the same just because they do. And the thought that we should be forced to have viruses injected into our newborns is insane. Over the years i have found that those who choose to follow the cdc's vaccine schedule and not question what their doctor says are the same people who have never read research studies,product inserts and investigated documented vaccine reactions. It is almost always the people willing to put in the legwork do their homework and make informed decisions that choose not to vaccinate their children. there are actually several people on these threads saying "i don't have the time to sit down and research this stuff for my kid" ..really?? then maybe you should change your priorities.
You also don't have to get your kids their shots on anyone elses schedule you can do what you feel comfortable with. My husband and i decided to wait until we felt we had done all our research before starting any vaccines (which happened to be when she was 20 weeks old.) i had done an entire research project on childhood vaccine safety and efficacy in nursing school only two years before but even in that short amount of time more studies came out and so did new vacine recomendations so we wanted to make sure we were up to date on our info.
People seriously have to stop grouping all children into the same risk factor catergory.Before our daughter recieved her first DTaP shot we literally kept her either at home, spent lots of time out in the open air on walks, or at family members houses who were illness free (her grandparents and father and aunts and uncles all got their TDaP boosters as well to protect her). Any one who touched her washed their hands before they did so she was not around other children or large groups. It is not other people's responsibility to protect your young infants...that is your job as a parent and one i took seriously. That meant not taking her grocery shopping or going out to dinner for about 6 months but it was a small sacrifice. She was also breastfed for almost 2 years and got antibodies for every disease i am immune to everytime she ate so she wasn't at much risk for most communicable diseases we vaccinate for anyway. I also stay home with her durring the week and work on the weekends so she has never had to be in a daycare setting. My child simply does not have the same risk factors as a child whose parents pass them around to anyone,take them out to crowded places stick them in daycare and throw them a bottle of formula.
You have to make the decision for your family and your child..not whats right for other people. If something doesnt sit right with you and you don't feel as though you have enogh info to make a decison then wait...but realize that it does put your child at an increased risk and act accordingly. I am writing this as i sit next to my daughter who is working happily on her workbook and is about one week into the chicken pox (gasp!). No problems and almost zero complaints with over 250 spots....i am so glad she got them as a child and now has lifelong immunity and isnt gonna have to worry about getting 3 shots for it before she is 13 and then boosters for the rest of her life. She has recieved some vaccines that i felt were important.... but vaccinate her for normal childhood illnesses meant to be had in childhood that RARELY have complications when they get them at a young age....not a chance.
For the vast majority of children (and people who vaccinate seem to love statistics since they are always quoting how safe and effective they are) measles, mumps chciken pox ect pass without any problems whatsoever. Is there the occasional problem ..of course...are there occasional problems with vaccine side effects ..absolutely (and with these live virus shots most of the vaccines serious side effects are exactly the same as complications from contracting the disease naturally)
So enough with the scare tactics please...it is just rediculous. We all make tough choices for our kids everyday and have to live with them. My child has not been in contact with any other childern who had the chicken pox...she did however play with two children who had just had their pox vaccine a few days before..our doct thinks those kids most likely shed the live virus and gave it to my child. Many docs forget to mention to parents that with the live virus vaccines (think chicken pox measles mumps rubella and rotavirus) their children are able to spread that disease to other children for a certain amount of time and while most parents have common sense to keep their child home when they are ill most don't have the knowledge to be responsible and keep them home for awhile after getting these shots ...so in this case it was the vaccinated children spreading diseases cuz their parents chose to ignore the fact that their kids could infect others with the virus after being immunized.
I have gotten nasty looks...the bad parent speech and had to change doctors bc i chose to do things differently and think for myself....do i care..not even a little. I made the right choices for my family and they may not be the right choices for yours but educate yourself and realize their are two sides to every argument. "

So I guess my question is - am I a stupid, scare mongering mother for getting my daughters MMR done a few weeks early (with the doctors permission of course)?

Can we debate the finer points of the 'response' I got - I think I take issue with the "My child simply does not have the same risk factors as a child whose parents pass them around to anyone,take them out to crowded places stick them in daycare and throw them a bottle of formula" statement for a start . . .

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

Sara - posted on 04/06/2011

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You know what the real problem is? Vaccines have worked so well that people have no memory of what those diseases were actually like. No way my grandmother or mother would have declined vaccinations.

Krista - posted on 04/06/2011

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Guys, we might want to lay off the personal insults. It's pretty obvious who's being discussed, and if this thread is found by that individual, she'd have a pretty good case for some pretty egregious violations of no-THUMPS.

Not that I don't vehemently disagree with her, but why give the DM mods headaches from getting a bazillion notifications of personal attack flags?

Johnny - posted on 04/06/2011

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"i have to wonder when these unvaccinated kids grow up and don't realize they aren't vaccinated, how they're gonna feel if they get measles or something that could've been prevented. cause you know they aren't going to be kept under mommys skirt forever (hopefully). they are going to go out into the big bad world...with no immunity. it irritates me to no end."



Kati, I can sort of answer that for you. It may not be the case for every kid, but some do get rather pissed about it. My SIL didn't vaccinate her kids. She doesn't believe in it. I avoid discussing it with her because I'm pretty sure she just believes her crazy ass naturopath about everything and hasn't done any actual research for herself.



Anyway, my nephew is graduating from highschool this year. He was a competitive volleyball player, and in grade 10 missed 3 tournaments and the junior provincials because he could not travel to the city where the games were since they had a major mumps outbreak there. A city with one of our lowest rates of vaccinated kids due to religious exemption reasons.



He was furious with his mom. They fought over it a lot. Finally, his dad stepped in and took him to get the shots so he didn't miss anything again. He decided to receive all the vaccines, not just the MMR. He even got the flu shots in the last couple years.



His sister wants to be vaxxed too because she's afraid of catching something serious. Her and her mom are still fighting about it. She gets scared everytime people in their school or community return from overseas. A lot of people they know travel to 3rd world countries to volunteer and could potentially bring something back. I've tried to reassure my niece, since those traveling are usually vaccinated before leaving, but it still freaks her out.

Ez - posted on 04/06/2011

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*Mod Warning*

Please refer to Krista's post above ;)
Attack the content of the post, but please don't name-call.

Erin - DM Mod

Amber - posted on 04/06/2011

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I was annoyed at her before, but now that she came back and responded to my request for research and citation and even more annoyed.

She went to a website then copied and pasted only certain parts. I went to the same website and found loads of information against her. And found that she only used partial sentences because the rest of the sentence wasn't useful for her argument.

I asked for logical arguments, not edited and incomplete citations that took the quotations out of context.

This conversation has been closed to further comments

61 Comments

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Sneaky - posted on 04/07/2011

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Thanks for the reminder Erin and Krista. I actually went to bed last night feeling a bit like a teenager that was talking about someone behind their back - but that was not what I intended, so I got over it! I am sorry if I (or anyone else) has been 'attacking' the individual and not the 'information' she provided.



If anyone would like to debate the individual in person the 'debate' is in a group called "Moms who need to vent". It should be pretty easy to find.



Edited to add:

http://www.circleofmoms.com/moms-who-nee...

Stifler's - posted on 04/06/2011

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It makes me laugh. I still can't believe people don't vaccinate. I'd actually never heard of anyone being a *non vaxer* before this site.

Jodi - posted on 04/06/2011

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I really hate when someone waltzes in and makes assumptions that people who vaccinate didn't do their research.....I've seen it a LOT, and it really insults people's intelligence to make those assumptions. You don't see us going around telling them they haven't done their research.

[deleted account]

Johnny, well that's one way to rebel I suppose! "Mum, I went and had ALL my vaccinations, so THERE!" :-P lol

Lacye - posted on 04/06/2011

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Wow. Pardon my French, but she seems like a bitch.



Tracey, you are not stupid for getting your child vaccinated a little early. You were concerned about your baby's health and that is what is most important.



But let's get real here, not everybody has the perfect life like her majesty does. She talks about not taking her child out in public for the first 6 months. Well guess what, I took my daughter to Wal-Mart when she was just a couple of days old. Why do you ask? Because my husband doesn't have his license and I was the only person who could drive. So yeah, she was introduced to the public at a very young age, but you know what, she never got sick until she was 18 months old and that was only because her daddy (my husband) caught the flu and accidently gave it to her. You can keep your child at home all you damn well want to, but let's face the facts, diseases are still going to find a way in. It's a fact of life and this woman is apparently living in a fantasy world if she thinks differently.



Edit to ask where this thread is so I can go look. LOL

Rosie - posted on 04/06/2011

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i have to wonder when these unvaccinated kids grow up and don't realize they aren't vaccinated, how they're gonna feel if they get measles or something that could've been prevented. cause you know they aren't going to be kept under mommys skirt forever (hopefully). they are going to go out into the big bad world...with no immunity. it irritates me to no end.

and the thing about the formula?! holy hell, she has no fucking clue.

Stifler's - posted on 04/06/2011

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I didn't need to *research* vaccination to vaccinate my child. I was vaccinated and never had measles, mumps, rubella or polio. I did a subject called Pathophysiology at uni. The immunity part convinced me enough without reading propaganda from the internet written by Joe Blow about the risks of vaccination.

Jayce - posted on 04/06/2011

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That woman is rude and arrogant. I couldn't even read through all that she wrote, she was annoying me.

No, Tracey, you are not a bad mother for wanting to protect your child. There are pro's and con's to the whole vax/not vax arguement but in the end I think the pro-vax arguement wins.

Becky - posted on 04/06/2011

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I hate how non-vaxing parents always seem to call those of us who are pro-vax "uneducated" and assume we did no research. If you don't want to vaccinate your kids, fine, don't, but don't assume I'm uneducated because I chose to protect my children from diseases that could kill or permanently damage them. And "scared" into vaccinating? Hell yes, the idea of my child dying of meningitis or going deaf from the measles terrifies me! It's worriesome that that doesn't scare her!

Pia - posted on 04/06/2011

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Amber - her opinion is not logical so of course she can't give you logical arguments! I am sooo glad she tried though because frig' it was amusing to read while feeding my bub at 3am:)

[deleted account]

Wow, rude b****. Sorry I don't particularly appreciate input like hers. I:<

But no, you are not being stupid or a scare mongering mother. You are doing what you think is best and you shouldn't have to waver about your decisions.

As for "My child simply does not have the same risk factors as a child whose parents pass them around to anyone,take them out to crowded places stick them in daycare and throw them a bottle of formula" statement. Well I formula fed my daughter from 3 months. Did I want to? NO effing hell I did not want to! You stupid judgmental cow! (Sorry.) I didn't have a choice with my baby, my body shut down and stopped making milk. I pass my child around? Well I do want her to socialize and be out in the REAL WORLD occasionally. Daycare? Welcome to reality chum, most of us have to work for a living. How lucky of you to have a husband (?) that rakes in enough for you to be a SAHM, acoz sure are hell I want to stay home with my little girl a little more often.

She is rude, insensitive, and opinions like that are totally unappreciated in my honest opinion. I genuinely hate people like her. Not dislike, just hate. Can't stand 'em. This topic is totally putting me in a crappy mood first thing in the morning.

My partner hates CoM because I get so angry from the topics nowadays. Lol.

Johnny - posted on 04/06/2011

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Just responding to Sarah's posts about chicken pox & shingles. I have been holding off on the vaccine for that exact reason. I'm very pro-vax, but from what I have read, even from some very pro-vax sources, the early vaccination for the pox may be leading to increased shingles in older teens and young adults. So I plan to vax my daughter when she's older if she hasn't gotten it yet. And I'd suggest the booster to anyone who had the vax as a young kid and is now in their early 20's.



The herd immunity is necessary to protect those who can not vaccinate. There are people who are allergic or who have serious reactions to being vaccinated and can not receive further shots. Those people need to be protected by the rest of us having herd immunity. People choosing not to vaccinate for other reasons lead to no herd immunity and put people who have no choice but to not vaccinate at serious risk. That really annoys me!

Kate CP - posted on 04/06/2011

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I hate judgmental, arrogant twats. And she's trying to play both sides of the field here. "Oh, you vaccinate because you buy into the scare tactics..." and then "I'm not an anti-vaxxer! I vaccinated, too!"

What. The. Fuck. >:P

[deleted account]

I saw your post and I am one of the people totally on your side. In fact, i compared people not vaccinating to people who feel it's still ok to not put their kids in a car seat and hold them on their laps instead. I make NO apologies for that statement and don't think you should either.

Jackie - posted on 04/06/2011

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I personally would have told her to shove it up her patronizing ass - but that's just me :)

Amanda - posted on 04/06/2011

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Nice to see you Renae.

I will admit I stopped reading that womans rant the moment she said those who vaccinate are making an uninformed choice. Well! I am fully informed, I have seen the damage not vaccinating can do to a child first hand. My children, myself and my husband are ALL up todate on vaccinations! Thats right even adults need their boosters. I wonder if those family members she trusts are up todate on their boosters :0)

One thing I have found those who truely dont have real proof of their statements they resort to insults, and belittling to get their point across.

Tracey good for you for putting your childs health first, never will that make you an over baring mother! Only a great mom!

Krista - posted on 04/06/2011

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You have to wonder: do these anti-vaxxers ever stop to think what our world would be like if there were no more vaccines? If they were outlawed tomorrow and forever?

Do they HONESTLY think that kids would be better off?

Renae - posted on 04/06/2011

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Oh and chicken pox sucks ass! It itches like hell and you feel like crap. I had it when I was about 8. It was at that time I clearly remember deciding I would rather be in total pain than itch, I hated it. Somehow I highly doubt any child who has it wouldn't make a single complaint - sometimes we see things how we want to see them.

Renae - posted on 04/06/2011

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Hi ladies, just joined debating mums just for this thread! I know some of you already.

I was part of the original conversation, and she just posted again, still arguing her point. I think she needs to be told to keep her debating and "information" communities designed for that purpose. The purpose of the venting community as far as I see it is to spill your vent and have people jump on your band wagon to make you feel better! If you disagree, dont post and move on.

I was one of the people she referred to in the post above too, I am the one that should rethink my priorities because I dont have time to do the research. It's true, I did say that, but more as a passing comment because at the time I didn't feel the need to explain that I started to research and 3 months later was still reading so had to make a decision before finishing all the research. I do know that to read all the research would take a few years as a full time job and cost a fortune as most of it is in medical journals that your average person doesn't ordinarily subscribe to. To read a couple of books and do some google searches and then tell other people how informed you are just makes me cranky. I considered responding to her and would have had my computer not decided to keep freezing, but now that I have calmed down I've decided it's not worth it. :)

Sneaky - posted on 04/06/2011

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I need a 'THANK YOU' button - I would be hitting it for everyone right now!

Bonnie - posted on 04/06/2011

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To me this woman sounds quite ignorant and almost as if she thinks that her and her child are the only ones around.

"My child simply does not have the same risk factors as a child whose parents pass them around to anyone,take them out to crowded places stick them in daycare"

Geez, does this woman not realize that her daughter can be around one other person and get sick? It has nothing to do with staying out of crowds or only having one person hold her or watch.

Sarah - posted on 04/06/2011

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I just came across this:

-Can the vaccine cause herpes zoster (shingles)?
Yes, this is possible. The risk of zoster following vaccination appears to be less than that following infection with the varicella virus. The majority of cases of shingles following vaccine have been mild and have not been associated with serious complications.

I got this from the Immunization Action Coalition website, which I don't know much about. Not sure if it's legit or not lol.

Sarah - posted on 04/06/2011

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@Sarah M - Hmmm that's interesting! Thanks for pointing that out! I checked out a link earlier that said "anyone who has had chicken pox is at risk for shingles," but it didn't actually address those who have had the chicken pox vaccine. I'd be interested in doing more research about it.

Sarah - posted on 04/06/2011

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I've had Shingles! I had them young though (18) so it wasn't that bad and I got 2 weeks off work and lots of cool pain killers! LOL

It can be pretty nasty when you're older though.

I could be wrong, I'll have to go check, but I thought that the reason we don't vaccinate against it here is because it's thought that it will cause MORE outbreaks of Shingles........
I'll go check!

Sarah - posted on 04/06/2011

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"I am writing this as i sit next to my daughter who is working happily on her workbook and is about one week into the chicken pox (gasp!). No problems and almost zero complaints with over 250 spots....i am so glad she got them as a child and now has lifelong immunity"

Has this woman never heard of SHINGLES? Anyone who has ever had the chicken pox is at risk for shingles. My dad just got over shingles & he wouldn't wish that on his worst enemy. He had intense nerve pain that lingered on and on for MONTHS.

Sarah - posted on 04/06/2011

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Not the best way to get her point across!!

Also, she points out that her kid has chicken pox, which we don't vaccinate against here in the UK. Both my girls have had it with no problems BUT I personally wouldn't be lumping chicken pox in the same league as mumps and measles as she does.

I think Sara's right that people seem to have forgotten how nasty these diseases are.

Sal - posted on 04/06/2011

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neither would my nan who was left with a perminant limp after child hood polio

Tracey - posted on 04/06/2011

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Yes she is right to make choices for her family, and yes there are 2 sides to every arguement but in return she must respect the right of other parents to do what they feel is right for their children, even if it is the opposite of her choices.

I like the way she tells others to educate themselves yet her post is full of spelling mistakes.

Stifler's - posted on 04/06/2011

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I agree with Toni, the anti vax brigade rely on everyone else vaccinating to protect their young. Then criticise the very same people for lowering incidences of deadly disease.

Sal - posted on 04/06/2011

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i get so cross when i hear of people who don;t vaccinate thier kids, i think that one who needs a dose of reality is the woman who rudly stated you needed it.....maybe she could spend a few months in a 3rd world country nursing poor sick kids who are scared, fighting for their lives because of illnesses that we take for granted our kids won;t get, or if they do get measles or mumps etc our modern medical system will fix it and nothing too serious will happen....my 4 year old recently had her 4 year old vacc, she has never had a reaction before but this time she had a very large sore lump for a few weeks, but will this stop me getting her little sister done next year...no way, a sore arm is annoying, getting measles, probally she'll be ok, giving it to a new born or a lukemia sufferer, unforgivable!!

Krista - posted on 04/06/2011

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Yeah, that response was really nasty and rude. Not all of us have the luxury of being able to isolate our children from the rest of society.

My child simply does not have the same risk factors as a child whose parents pass them around to anyone,take them out to crowded places stick them in daycare and throw them a bottle of formula.

Yeah, comments like that make me want to kick her in the box.

[deleted account]

Ally really insulted me with the formula and childcare thing...her child is more at risk cos her child is not vaccinated period. i did formula feed and i do not like the breast is best brigade...ive said it on that forum and ill say it again I literally shit myself when there is a measles outbreak i have had th vaccine and i it did not work i also have compromised immune system. I don't think you're stupid at all I would of done the same thing if my son was younger and we still lived in Sydney. I actually find, and yes im going to get shot for saying this, that a lot of anti vaxers are indeed selfish and have trouble thinking beyond themselves...ie the wider community. and she says chucking a bottle of formula like its a lazy thing...its not throwing your child on a nipple is heaps lazier...hell you dont even need to get out of bed to do it...or in some cases wake up at all. im going to stop here before i really really get upset about it

[deleted account]

I agree with the other ladies this poster was just rude and sanctimonious! The bit I really loved was "Before our daughter recieved her first DTaP shot we literally kept her either at home, spent lots of time out in the open air on walks, or at family members houses who were illness free (her grandparents and father and aunts and uncles all got their TDaP boosters as well to protect her)" so apart from suggesting we should all stop living our lives she was relying on the herd immunity of her family to stop her child from catching the illness, while she decided when to vaccinate her and with what. I am pro-vax but there are vaccinations that my son hasn't had as I don't feel they are neccesary for my son but I don't think the parents who choose to have them are uneducated or don't bother to research them before they give them to their children.

What a giggle you got the MMR you must be stupid let your daughter catch measles instead cos that'd be better

Ez - posted on 04/06/2011

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All I can really say to this is it must be nice to have the luxury of never having to drag a baby into the supermarket :-p

Tracey you are not being unreasonable. That response was very self-righteous.

[deleted account]

Damn it i posted to this thread but for some reason i didn't get the update!
My daughter is 4 she is the only one at school, she has had her shots. My other 2 children are to young for the whole dose. So what she is telling me is i should keep my 2 younger children at home. I'm a single mum that just isn't possible. I don't think i could say anything constructive on this one. Talk about uninformed.

Amber - posted on 04/05/2011

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She really ticked me off too!

I responded in the other thread. And aside from the basic lack of knowledge (which I'll leave alone for now) I was really ticked about the:

""My child simply does not have the same risk factors as a child whose parents pass them around to anyone,take them out to crowded places stick them in daycare and throw them a bottle of formula"

How does she know who breast feeds, is a SAHM, has a baby sitter, or lets any other person watch their kids?

It amazes me that for being so "informed" that she can be so ignorant.

And to assume that we haven't researched? I spent a TON of time researching, which annoyed my SO because he told me everything before I started researching.

And her misinformation on the dangers of childhood diseases and the "lifelong immunities" they give only made her argument weaker.

Stifler's - posted on 04/05/2011

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ROFL at her. What's not to be scared of when it comes to your kids getting deadly illnesses!!

[deleted account]

I wonder what the hell that woman would do if she became a single mom the day her 3rd child was born.... I must be a 'horrible' mom w/ my priorities screwed up for choosing to take my newborn son to the grocery store w/ me as opposed to leaving him home alone where he would've been 'safe'.....

I did spread out my son's shots a bit after his 6 month ones (no reason other than an uneasiness I couldn't shake), but I certainly don't think you are wrong for doing what you've done. If someone I loved had almost died from the measles and then I found out I was living near a measles outbreak.... I'd be concerned and probably react in the same way.

Sneaky - posted on 04/05/2011

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Donna - I'll be getting my MMR booster next week and bub will be getting hers in 3 weeks (The anti-vaxers will love this - she is having a flu shot next week since she has had asthma since the age of three months!) so she will be getting it at just over 11 months old.

Johnny - posted on 04/05/2011

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I live in Canada. But at the 12 year shots here they give them 5 different pokes. I did 2, 2, and 1 over a 6 months period instead. I know that they have a lot more in the US than we do.

Mel - posted on 04/05/2011

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I love how people think formula feeding makes babies sick more, I breast fed soley for 4 months then solids and breast milk with only small amounts of formula at 5-6 months, our oldest daughter had the worst cold she had ever had like medicines round the clock couldnt even sleep for more then a few seconds cause of coughing etc, and we tried so very hard not to get the new baby sick used th detol hand wash every time we touched her and kept her sister away from her, but she got sick so easy a few days old and she was losing all her feeds, and I think she got sick about 3 more itmes before winter was over, and I had heard breast fed babies dont get sick as well.

I think everything she said was just rude

Sneaky - posted on 04/05/2011

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Thanks Nikki, I didn't think I was being unreasonable, but I didn't think I was 'scare mongering' or starting an all children must be vaccinated manifesto either!

That's one of the things that struck me too Johnny! Mostly I suspect that she only has one child, so does not have to deal with one coming home from school with 'germs' - she plans to home school I guess! And even if she had her groceries delivered - how does she know the delivery driver didn't cough all over them?

I am however highly amused that an anti-vaxer is bitching about her un-vaccinated child catching chicken pox from vaccinated children! Wasn't that the point of NOT vaccinating her - so she could catch the disease and get 'natural' immunity??? Choose a side of the fence already!

[deleted account]

Ok, this begs the question: How many shots are they giving babies in the US?? I didn't think our schedule was all that bad, and I did my research too. I did enough research to know to PAY for the Rotavirus before it was on the schedule ($120 for the course in 2007) and it turned out to be a good thing when I came down with it but Seth didn't... even though half of the time he was parented from the toilet!

Johnny - posted on 04/05/2011

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Just read it again. I had a hard time understanding what she was saying through all the sanctimony the first time I read it. I hope you gave her a "dose of reality" back.

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