Immigration Law in AZ

Christa - posted on 05/05/2010 ( 109 moms have responded )

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I need someone to please help me understand why people are so wound up about this new immigration law in AZ? I don't understand what's wrong with requiring someone to prove their legal status and if not they are sent back where they came from? Everybody on the planet knows that here in the US we have a SERIOUS immigration problem. So why are people so upset that at state, that arguably has the worst problem, finally took a step in the right direction to fix this problem. Why are people so upset?

Here in CO we have had Denver Public Schools restrict and work travel to AZ and today the city of Boulder restricted it's gov't employees from any travel there. All that makes me think is who the hell do they have working there that they are suddenly worried about them going to AZ? I am citizen and would have no problem going to AZ and getting pulled over. I'm not the least bit worried about being deported so why all the fuss??

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Dana - posted on 05/09/2010

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I'm always curious as to how people come up with the fact that illegals will work jobs that Americans don't want to work. American's are HURTING for jobs, they'll take what they can get.
It's not that illegals do work that Americans won't do, it's that illegals will work for a ridiculously low amount of money.

Dana - posted on 05/06/2010

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I actually don't see any problem with it. I've gotten stopped on the side walk by police before for no reason. I've gotten pulled over and questioned just because I was out driving late at night. They can always come up with a reason. Illegal immigration is a huge problem here. I suspect those that are bitching about it so much truly don't understand the issues going on in area's where this is a problem.

I do understand the other side of this issue but I think they're reaching and making this into something that it's not.

Suzette - posted on 05/05/2010

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First of all, this law copies the federal law that's already in place.

@Krista, how can it be unconstitutional if it copies the very law that the Federal law has in place? Because it *possibly* leaves room for abuse? If that's the case, so do quite a few other laws out there.

I lived in Arizona for over 23 years, if you honestly believe that only 30 percent of that States residents are hispanic, I'm not sure where you get your statistics, but that's really below the correct average. Maybe 30 percent legally, but not 30 percent overall. (Or 30 percent in one city.)

I also have quite a bit of family there, and quite a few friends... the majority of which are hispanic. The elders which immigrated here *legally* and they are all for this bill. They have no problem being pulled over, with *reasonable* cause, and asked for their identification.

For those who aren't aware, the local law enforcement has to have probable cause to pull you over, they cannot pull you over because you have dark hair, dark skin, and dark eyes. It has to be something to do with a broken tail light, speeding, etc. for them to pull you over.

Why is everyone raising a fuss when Border Patrol has been able to pull you over for *far* less than this? They could pull you over just because they *suspect* you're an illegal immigrant. They don't need a reason based upon your driving, your vehicle, etc. The problem is that the law isn't being enforced and they don't have enough people to enforce it. So the State of Arizona took it upon themselves to make a State Law that copies the Federal Law. Why? Because of how many problems they have there. And now the illegals that are in Arizona (and a few people who live there who don't understand it - law enforcement included), and those who *do not* live there who don't understand it, are throwing a fit.

(In my opinion, most likely because they won't be able to get cheap labor anymore, because the State is also enacting laws that carry hefty fines and penalties for hiring illegals. In my opinion... it's about time.)

Here's an article I agree with. http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/bres...

And my current facebook status:
Call me a racist, I don't give a damn!!! I say that the law Arizona enacted needs to stay in place. Unless you've lived there and you've had to deal with the crap that rains down, you have no idea what it's like! I know that I'm not a racist, so do those close to me including my family (which is mainly hispanic btw), and my closest friends.

Why do I feel so strongly? Because I've heard over and over from people who don't live there about how they've talked to so and so, or read an article about such and such, that pertains to this new law. The truth is that you (Generally speaking) don't know how many people have died there because of an illegal who gets handed water by a good samaritan (because it's illegal if an Arizona citizen lives near the border and an illegal is crossing through and they *deny* them water) and that illegal kills that good samaritan for their money, clothes, etc. There are border patrol agents who get attacked constantly, by rocks, guns, etc. because they're doing their jobs. They're undermanned, overworked, etc. and they're attacked for trying to protect the borders in Arizona.

My Mom and Dad, who live out in the middle of nowhere on 5 acres have had illegals come up to their fence attempting to demand things, thankfully they have dogs out there so they can scare them off.) Border patrol is prominent in that area, they're usually out there at least once a week, if not twice, on their ATV's chasing down a bunch of illegals who are trying to cross the border. There have been people found dead out there, not illegals either. Sorry, something has to be done. This is an extremely passionate issue for me, and most of the people I know from Arizona, due to the deaths that have been caused because of illegals. It's not just about jobs, the economy, etc.

As far as those who are passing through and their driver's licenses... every law has it's kinks and it's just one thing that'll have to be worked out. There are laws that have had kinks that needed to be worked out before.

Sharon - posted on 05/06/2010

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Heres a thought...



When I was in highschool my boyfriend and I were walking to the corner store to get the newspaper. Halfway across the lot 3 police cars zoomed in, lights going, sirens wailing... 8 am on a sunday morning... good god, scared the shit out of us. THey circled us, got out of their cars with guns drawn. We were FROZEN. They wanted to talk with my boyfriend. They seperated us and questioned me about his name, where did he live, etc etc etc etc They only had a few questions for me and a lot for him. I asked what this was all about.



Apparently a woman had been killed by her boyfriend, blonde haired, blue eyed and built like a nordic god.... guess what my boyfriend looked like? Neither of us were ever upset about it. He fit the profile of a criminal. We both knew where he was the night before (get your minds out of the gutters, he was on the phone with me... landlines back then you know!) and I knew he had a hard time killing mice, never mind another humanbeing.



He looked like a criminal. He was detained and questioned in front of our entire neighborhood. Then he was let go. He had his student ID in his pocket.



I don't know about you guys but here in the USA you cannot drive without your license. When I take the dogs for a walk, I tuck my license into a pocket for identification.



What is the big deal? If you are legal, you have nothing to worry about.



People are detained for crimes every hour. Most are innocent. Just because they happen to look like someone or even more tenuous because they know someone . they prove who they are, they're released and they move on. Its part and parcel of being a cooperative citizen.

Suzette - posted on 05/06/2010

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I also agree with Kelly. This IS fear mongering. If there are hispanics - both legal and naturalized (not just my family - but people that we've known for a long, long time and some that my Dad has just met at work - again all legal with their documentation and Driver's Licenses) that are all for this... why is it that there are so many that are up in arms about it? Because of fear mongering. They think that this is all about racial profiling and it's not. If that were the case then they could've been doing it long before now and they haven't been. The only difference this is going to make is that the Border Patrol Agents are going to have help from the Local Law Enforcement. This is bad WHY??! Because there's room for abuse? Show me a law where there isn't room for abuse. Any police officer that was/is racist was racist long before this law came into effect, sorry. And those officers were likely abusing other laws before this one. My Dad has been pulled over before for idiotic things (like a broken license plate light or tail light), each and every time he's done what he's had to. He's not bitter for it, he got it fixed and moved on. And all of that was years and years ago. Oh, and he wasn't once asked for "papers" then either. But I guarantee you that the first hispanic person that is against this law that is pulled over for something like that WILL call out on racial profiling. Guess what? About 85% (if not more) of the officers in Arizona are extremely strict about that kind of thing. I only know because it wasn't just my Dad that was pulled over for that stuff, my mother (white) was too, so was my brother (white), and my ex boyfriend (also white). So if anyone wants to call that out as racial profiling, it's just another way to say that some officer is abusing the new law or that an officer is racist.
(And I'm sure it'll happen because people are so paranoid about this law being just that - even if it is the exact same as the federal law.)

@Carol
"Where do people get this cockamamie idea that being opposed to this particular immigration law means that one thinks that illegal immigration is a good thing? It is entirely possible to be strongly opposed to illegal immigration and opposed to racial profiling and a police state all at the same time."
Again, this isn't racial profiling, but I'm sure that I can say that (or rather type it) until I'm blue in the face and it seems that people either don't understand it or just don't want to. (I'm not sure which.)
In most of the cities I've been to in Arizona, and I've traveled through most of it, the population is mostly hispanic. Walk into any store, any mall, movie theater, etc. and you'll see a few caucasians, maybe a couple Asian (oriental - sorry I'm not politically correct on this!), but you will see an ocean of hispanic/latino/mexican people. They are the majority, so when you pull someone over, it's likely to be a hispanic person. It's not racial profiling, it's fact. As far as someone getting stopped on the sidewalk for walking their dog(s), I highly doubt that's going to happen. This is about pulling people over with probable cause, just like any other time an officer would, except that they would ask for their Driver's license (and it will show whether they are a citizen or not - naturalized or otherwise). If it doesn't, they will ask for other identification, and the process will go from there. I'm not sure where you're getting your information but it doesn't sound like the law that was put into effect.

Just for the record... where are people getting this cockamamie idea that this new law is all about racial profiling??

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the sad thing is we brought that up to the government workers and they plain flat out said we were lying, that stuff doesnt happen. im like ok whatever.

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i do agree the ones who are just too lazy should not get help. it angers me i see so many people who just bum the government bc they dont want to work. thats why im glad we moved from texas. alot of people were having anchor babies to stay, they kept having kids to get more money fromt he government and they wernt even here legally. to me thats not fair, they help illegals who have kids here to stay and they kepp having kids and the ones who are legal have 1-2 kids who are struggling get crap for help. theres people who live all around us who are young moms and keep having kids and bum the government. in fact one family the dads a drug dealer, she gets govt help and she doesnt even care for the kids, they have nothing while she spends it on her fancy brand name clothes and what not brand new cars,rims costing more than the car. it sickens me.

Suzette - posted on 05/10/2010

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@Jo,

I suppose my posts did come off about the illegal immigrant problem in Arizona... but it's not the only reason I'm all for this law. The link that I posted that goes directly to the copy of the bill, I can't remember what post it's in now, has information in it that they're cracking down on the companies too. They had a bill that they had voted on that was separate for that, I don't believe it did very much good though. This Governor is bound and determined to make sure that this crap stops, with companies, with putting a dent in the Cartel, in the illegal immigrant problem, etc. It's not just the illegal immigrants that are the problem, it's everything as a whole. Sooner or later Arizona's economy is going to be worse than California's. They're already sending out I.O.U.'s for State Taxes, they haven't started shutting down the rest stops (like Cali) has, but they're getting close to it. The legal residents there are paying for the problem, not just monetarily wise, but with their lives too... in some areas. Like Krista said, I want this to change. I know that there will be officers out there that are going to idiots, we have them throughout the U.S., I just hope that there aren't going to be too many.



@Christin,

You being turned down for not speaking Spanish is actually illegal unless it pertains to the job for which you are applying. You didn't know your rights and that's something that a lot of people make mistakes about. Now you have information to what questions you can be asked, and what questions they're allowed to rephrase to ask you. You might want to bookmark those, memorize them, and keep them for future reference. If you find yourself in that position again, report it.



If you know of companies like that, why are you complaining instead of doing something about it? Report them, we have resources to report them for a reason. If you're not going to report them, don't complain because you're just allowing it to happen.



If you know people who would rather sit on their butt and starve because they think they're "too good" well, honestly, I hope they starve. Sorry. No one is too good to do anything with this economy. If it came down to myself, my family, etc. and needing food, to pay bills, I would get off my butt and get a fast food job, paint walls, do whatever I had to do to get it done. And I LOATHE the idea of working in fast food, but I would do it. Pfft, I'd be cutting grass for my neighbors for 10 bucks if it meant putting dinner on the table. No one is too good when it comes to their family and putting a roof over their head.



First you say that " i do know that they do do jobs not just any american would do. their are people here who would rather not work than take a job an illegal would jump all over."

Then, "we cant help ourselves if we dont have a chance. so many people are out of work and cant afford insurance and need help and are getting denied."



Okay, if they're being hired because people think they're "too good" to do what they're doing, it isn't that people don't have a chance. It's called people being lazy. And I don't think that all people are like that especially because I know plenty that aren't. But for those that are too lazy, like I said, they can starve for all I care. They don't deserve the government or state assistance with food or health care if they believe they're too good for any old job. (Especially in this economy.) It might sound harsh, but that's the way I feel.

[deleted account]

i have been turned down for many jobs because i don't speak spanish. i dont feel like me not speaking spanish has any effect on how well i can do a job. it always made me mad when i was working we had lots of mexicans who did speak spanish and when we got hispanics come in who knew no english who got stuck with it? i did. i told my manager it's not fair they make me do it knowing we have people who do speak spanish, why should i have to do it? but whatever.

i know a company who hired all illegals because he didnt have to pay them much. they did the work alot cheaper bc they needed money. i do know that they do do jobs not just any american would do. their are people here who would rather not work than take a job an illegal would jump all over. i have seen it many times. i do think its wrong hiring illegals over our own just because we are suffering enough and they are bending over backwards helping other countries and illegals instead of our own people. we cant help ourselves if we dont have a chance. so many people are out of work and cant afford insurance and need help and are getting denied.

?? - posted on 05/10/2010

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I understand that, there should be a zero tolerance and there should be more focus on monitoring businesses hiring people who are illegally here, or paying under the table businesses, that kind of crap - question more companies, dig into more companies... if people who are there illegally have no where to work because the companies and businesses in the areas are under scrutiny everyday, it will help as well, at least I would think.


I was just mentioning it because reading through this there seems to be a lot of 'those naughty lil mexicans' thoughts but not too much focus on the American's that are enabling the problems too... so I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are on that as well.

Dana - posted on 05/10/2010

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Yes, Jo, that's been the fight for years, that's why people have been fighting just as hard for there to be stronger consequences for companies that do so.

?? - posted on 05/10/2010

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I wasn't really caring about what Mayra was saying about people doing the jobs, I basically ignored her statement all together. Because it really is irrelivant, there are shady businesses that will [still] hire illegals over legal citizens because they don't have to pay as much. Regardless of who WILL do the work, there are companies that don't want to pay all the extra's...

Rosie - posted on 05/10/2010

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i agree that there needs to be more of a crackdown on the companies that will hire the illegals. i hope the guy in iowa convicted of fraud stemming from him forging documents and stuff so that he could hire illegals, will get the max for his crimes. 43 years. it's a big debate of whether he's facing to much jail time since rapists and murderers get less time than that. i think he should get the max, it will send a good message.

Krista - posted on 05/10/2010

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I agree -- this debate has remained incredibly cool-headed and respectful.

And honestly, I hope I'm wrong. I really do. For the sake of the people of Arizona, I hope that this law manages to make a real dent in the problem of illegal immigration, while not trampling on the rights of any American citizens.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

LaCi - posted on 05/10/2010

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this thread doesn't make me bang my head against a wall. amazing. lol. you've all restored my faith in mankind. thank you.

Dana - posted on 05/10/2010

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Of course they're equally to blame but, Mayra didn't come in here saying anything about the companies, she came in here talking about people who "would do the jobs" and who "wouldn't do the jobs".

Suzette - posted on 05/09/2010

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And actually the company is more to blame - they have more of a duty to uphold - if that makes sense?

Suzette - posted on 05/09/2010

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Jo, I believe that both are to blame as much as the other. I didn't mean it to come across any other way... which is why I don't feel it's fair for them to be treated like crap by those "legal" companies. (Like crap means being paid the way they are as well as no health insurance - at least not from the company - which forces them to go to the State - which only drains the economy even more - and not good working conditions either.) There's a lot of unfair treatment for illegals and for the naturalized citizens/American citizens that would like to have the jobs that they have. It's another reason I'm all for this law, it does put more strict conditions in effect for those companies that are hiring illegal workers.

?? - posted on 05/09/2010

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There are companies that would rather hire an illegal for dirt cheap than hire a legal citizen and have to fork out all the extra expenses... so technically, shouldn't you blame the "legal" american companies for giving the illegals the jobs, just as much as the illegal people for taking the jobs...?



general question - I would figure it'd be just as much a concern

Kelly - posted on 05/09/2010

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Good point ladies, there are many Americans and legal immigrants out of work that would love to have a job right now. I too don't understand the idea that illegals do jobs Americans won't. What jobs would that be exactly? My mom (and plenty others) worked in apricot fields in So. Cal. in high school,(before technology lol) and as far as other "distasteful" jobs, there are always people that are happy to just be employed. And of course they would be paid at least min. wage if the illegals weren't willing to work for less and cram 25 people in a 1 bdrm. apt. California might want to take notes on how this plays out in AZ too. They are so broke it isn't funny. And they spend over 10 billion a year on illegals. (deportation, medical, incarceration) You would think they have better things to do with that money.......

Suzette - posted on 05/09/2010

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Exactly Dana, and that's not right for them either. It isn't right that they're treated that way it should be just another incentive for them to be here legally sot hey can be treated fairly.

I agree Kati, it's not good that they're treated like crap. Like Dana said, Americans will take those jobs. Right now I know a few people, like my Father in Law, who will take ANY job because he seriously needs the income. He's delivering papers right now for ridiculous amount of money (low money) because that's all he can find. I'm sure if this were controlled there would be more jobs on the market that would be offering better wages, but because they're taken up for even lower wages by illegals treated unfairly they're not available. It's not right for them or for Americans/legal citizens.

Rosie - posted on 05/09/2010

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i don't like the fact that they think it's a good thing that illegals will work those jobs. why would they think that's a good thing that they're treated like crap?

Suzette - posted on 05/09/2010

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Mayra,

I'm not sure who you're referring to... but to let you know as someone else said :
This is a debating forum, everyone is welcome to post their opinions on the topic as they see fit.

Beside that a lot of my family is Hispanic, and I'm from Southern Arizona. I lived there for over 20 years so I know about the issues that are there. You're not from Arizona, right, so you really wouldn't know about what they deal with in that State - but you would know about California's issues. Since you want to tell people how they should "mind their own business" you could mind California's, and I'll mind the State's that I'm from. ;) Thanks for the suggestion though.

Mayra - posted on 05/09/2010

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You really need to mind your own business and let the US deal with this because you can't.Alof of Hispanic ppl in this country work the jobs many Americans don't want to do.

Suzette - posted on 05/09/2010

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"i dodnt know that made me look mexican, we live in america speak english. its bad when ou get people who assume your something just bc."



We don't have an "official" language on the Constitution. However, some States have an official language (listed as English) in their State Constitution. If that's yours then you can say "the official language in Texas is English," but to say we live in the U.S., speak English, that's not right either. It just further divides people and I don't believe in that. The first immigrants were German and Irish and they had to learn to speak English to survive, most of them chose to do it too. I don't believe we should have to learn to speak Spanish, and they should have to learn English, but that doesn't mean that's all they should speak. It's almost like saying that they should forget who they are, that's not right... ya know?



And my Dad gets mistaken all the time for a Native American when he's been out in the sun for a long time. lol. I'm not sure why because it's not like Native American's and Hispanics have that big of a difference in skin tone, at least not in Arizona, but people call him "Chief" all the time - by people I'm referring to Native Americans before someone goes off about racist crap. It's a nickname he got at work from a bunch of Native American guys. It stuck with him all over the place since my parents live out near the reservation.

Suzette - posted on 05/09/2010

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Christin,

I don't think people look uneducated when they say things like that. I think that society has become so accustomed to certain things happening in the world and that just happens to be one of them. It's sad, but it's true.



In Arizona I've had people start talking Spanish to my mother and I and we just look at each other, we're not surprised though. Like I said, there's a ton of Hispanics that look white, so it's not like it's an invalid attempt. Plus, technically, I should know Spanish, I just really never put forth the effort in HS or with learning within my family. They don't believe in speaking Spanish outside of the home because they are American and to them that means speaking English. I know that not all people who come here from Mexico believe that, but my grandparents were the "old school" naturalized citizens I suppose. (And I know quite a few that come today that are the same way.)



Did you know it's illegal for a potential employer to ask about certain things? Including race. Okay, not so much as illegal for them to ask, but their intent behind asking IS illegal if it is for the sole purpose of not hiring you. (Of course with the new law in place regarding someone that has to be here in the U.S. legally to work, the whole citizenship thing will likely be off that list.)



Of course, if they don't hire you after you've answered a question that is illegal for them to ask, you're going to have a hell of a time proving it. BUT if you have just cause for the EEOC to investigate, then you can file a complaint. ;)



They cannot ask you questions which pertain to: Race, Color, Sex, Religion, National Origin, Birthplace, Age, Disability, Marital/Family Status. UNLESS there is one of those that pertains to the job description of which you are applying.

http://jobsearch.about.com/od/interviews...

(And there's more too... like military discharge status, pregnancy, arrest and conviction record, and citizenship.)

http://www.uwec.edu/career/Online_Librar...



http://www.jobweb.com/interviews.aspx?id...



And this is how they get around them...

http://www.hrworld.com/features/30-inter...

[deleted account]

they definatly are, people dont know the real definition of racism and they use it just because, i dont think they realize how uneducated they look using words like that and not knowing the meaning. i went to apply for a job once last year and my manage asked me what ethnicity i was claiming, i looked at her puzzled, she's like what race are you. im like white? shes like you dont claim hispanic? im like no should i? she's like well you are mixed arent you? im like umm no....thats not what my app sais. shes like oh, well i thought you were mixed. im like no im white, i have no tan so i dont get how i even remotly looked mixed? shes like oh well today you have no idea what anyones mixed with. im hispanic american i claim both, im like umm ok good for you. so to me i was not really insulted but upset she just assumed. or the time my husband walked into mcdonalds and had to ask for an english menu in texas, or the time he went to taco bell and they automatically spoke spanish to him and he's like english, me no speak mexican. and the kid was like oh i thought you were mexican. hes like do i look mexican to you? sorry im dirty i work as a tow truck driver all day. i dodnt know that made me look mexican, we live in america speak english. its bad when ou get people who assume your something just bc.

Suzette - posted on 05/09/2010

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Kelly,

Thank you for pointing out, yet AGAIN, what I've been saying all along.



@Krista, My mother, who is caucasian has been discriminated against by a black officer because he thought she was of Spanish descent, true Spanish descent, and from Mexico. She was in a car accident with an elderly couple, near the VA when her Dad was dying and the elderly couple had tboned her. The black officer was being a complete and total jerk to her. So yes, there ARE officers out there that are racist. (This was almost 20 yrs ago, but it did happen nonetheless.) There are going to be officers out there who are racist, BUT that doesn't mean every one of them is an idiot. I don't know where you come up with the assumption that all officers in Arizona are bad, racist, moronic buffoons but you obviously don't know them. You know of ONE bad apple that is highly publicized, that does not speak for the entire law enforcement in Arizona. (And the ADOT officer that misunderstood the bill before it was even law.)



There will have to be training on this law for the officers, just as there is with every new law that comes out that effects their work. Before you assume that an officer won't ask someone (white skin, brown skin, yellow skin, or black) for their identification... try taking Kelly up on her advice and traveling into Mexico city. There are white people there that are Hispanic. There are Mexicans that are black, white, brown, and some that are lighter and look asian... no they don't have every feature but they have the skin tone.



It's interesting that the officers aren't the ones doing the "racial profiling" it's everyone else in the country doing it for them. Like I said before, It seems to me that everyone else who is screaming about racial profiling and racism are the ones who have a problem with race.



And I completely agree with Kelly's statement about racism completely losing it's strength considering how often it's been flung around since Obama entered the White House. I don't like the man, but I don't like him because of his Politics, it has nothing to do with his race. But well, damn I must be a racist if I don't like him. If I'm against his bill, well I must be racist. If I like the law in Arizona, I have to be racist... and wait that means I'm racist against my own family too!! (That's hilarious btw.) If I'm racist against black people because of not liking Obama, well I'm racist against the black people in my family too... also hilarious. Yeah, I'm with Kelly, it's a bunch of bull. People need to get over the race crap.

Kelly - posted on 05/09/2010

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Krista, I don't think that you are understanding the law at all. Like Suzette has said MULTIPLE times, of course there are going to be some officers that abuse this new law, just as they have probably in the past abused other laws and the power they have over the general public. Over time, those bad apples will be weeded out. However, in your example, neither one of you would be asked for your documents. Now, if you were hitching a ride to work and the driver got pulled over for speeding, and then the officer found 10 lbs of coke in the car, chances are you would be asked for your papers in BOTH cases, and the illegal Canadian you would be busted.

Why are people (in general) automatically assuming that all the law officers in AZ are not only racist, but stupid? I think they are pretty well aware of the patterns that present themselves in AZ as far as who is likely to be illegal. They (a large part of which are of Hispanic or Native American decent) are not going to take the time to harass every person they stop for a speeding ticket. This law gives them the chance to DO something about illegals they bust, instead of just having to let people go because they know ICE doesn't give a crap. Maybe if our Federal Govt. would tackle the immigration issues in our country, (and I am just as mad if not more so at BUSH then at Obama) States wouldn't have to tackle the issues themselves. Not to mention, the largest ethnic group in AZ is Hispanic. And I know Suzette has also mentioned that many are WHITE people. Have you ever been to Mexico City? There are many many people there of Spanish decent that have blue eyes, red or blond hair, and are MEXICAN. The racist bullshit is just that. And I am sorry, but the word is starting to lose strength considering the left flings it around for just about everything. Don't like Obama? racist. Against healthcare? racist. Like AZ law? racist. Think naming a kid "nevaeh" is lame? racist.

Krista - posted on 05/09/2010

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People are calling this racist, racial profiling, etc. I don't see how it is, there's nothing in that law that goes against Mexico, Hispanics, or any other race individually. I think people are making it about race, definitely.



The reason is because, as I mentioned, there is no clearly defined guideline that tells a police officer when he should suspect that someone is an illegal.



So let's say that I'm Canadian, Caucasian with red hair, and I've illegally immigrated to the U.S., for some unknown reason, and am living in Arizona. I'm getting a lift with you to work, and you get stopped for speeding.



Looking the way that I look, what are the odds that the police officer will ask to see my ID to see if I'm in the country legally?



Now, what if I was born in the U.S., but am of Mexican descent, with dark hair and eyes? I'm getting a lift with you to work, and you get stopped by the cops for speeding.



Now, looking the way that I look, what are the odds that the police officer will ask to see my ID, to see if I'm in the country legally?



And just to take this a step further...in either case, let's say I've forgotten my ID at home. I might have grabbed the wrong purse, or forgotten my ID in my jeans from when I was out at the bar with my friends last night.



Which version of me do you think will get arrested?



The illegal Canadian?



Or the U.S. citizen of Mexican descent?

Suzette - posted on 05/08/2010

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Christin,

I agree that it is bad, people who are caught that are illegal (as someone else posted, and I can't recall who) are actually given free medical care if they need it. We do not deport them unless they are healthy! What a bunch of crock that is, in my opinion.

I wonder how many people know what it's like to sit in a Mexican prison, waiting to be sent back to the United States, where they don't give you medical care if you need it? (My Uncles could go for days on end about that one!) Yeah, one Uncle had a broken arm that was left untended for 2 days while he sat waiting for someone to come to Mexico to come and get him. Mexican authorities wouldn't ALLOW him to get medical attention either. My family was able to send someone with PROOF of his U.S. residency. And they want to complain about the way that Arizona is treating their problem with illegals? Has anyone really seen how strict Mexico is with their illegal immigrant policies? Probably not. They don't treat people, whether they're Hispanic-Americans or not, that are Americans very friendly unless it's in a tourist area and they know they're getting money. Of course, people don't hear about that or they do and they don't buy it.

The United States spends more money heling illegal immigrants, in some states, than they do helping people who really need it. Of course, there are a lot of people who don't believe that either. There are people in California (in some areas) who can't get hired unless they speak Spanish either. Some of these states are states that have English as their official language on their State Constitution. Tell me how this can be right, or legal for 99% of the businesses to deny to hiring someone if they don't speak Spanish? Personally, I think it's discrimination.

People are calling this racist, racial profiling, etc. I don't see how it is, there's nothing in that law that goes against Mexico, Hispanics, or any other race individually. I think people are making it about race, definitely.

[deleted account]

suzette- i agree, its bad. where we live they are kicking off all legals who really need help to help illegals bc the govt gets more money helping them. in fact there was a woman who came here once from someplace it wasnt mexico but another area down there and she got free medical and her surgery taken care of free then she left and went back where she came from. when my husband had to retire due to medical reasons i couldnt get a job in tx as i didnt speak spanish and thats all thats down there and they denied us help. so needless to say we struggled alot to get by. we were watching the news and there were people saying the whole thing is racist, but racist is a term people like to use now adays and dont know the meaning of the word which is really irratating.

Kelly - posted on 05/08/2010

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I just moved to PA and went to get my drivers license changed. I had to show birth cert. with raised seal, marriage license with raised seal (to show name change) social security card, and two items that prove residency. (lease, tax return, utility bill, or the like) So yes, even though my drivers license doesn't specifically say that I am a US citizen, it proves that I am. (Any police officer would know)

As far as fake documents, police are able to check validity in just a few minutes now. When I was bartending, the bar had a scanner that ran ID's to make sure they were valid and legal. So I really don't think the "black market" for documents is going to be any worse than usual. And where visitors are concerned, they usually carry their passport and visa (if needed) on their person anyway. I NEVER left my passport anywhere when I was abroad, Europe, Canada or Mexico.

Suzette - posted on 05/08/2010

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@Christin,

"its bad enough our own people are getting denied help to help them and our own people dont have jobs but they can come illegally and work and what not."

My grandmother is getting maybe about $30.00 a month in assistance, she's on social security, can barely afford her bills with ssi (she doesn't get that much in ss), and they can only give her that much in food stamps (assistance) each month because they say they don't have the funds in Arizona. Why? Hmmm, I'm guessing that's because there's so many illegals on aid there that they're taking up a buttload of the resources.

We need to help the people who are here legally, that means not only the ones who are naturalized citizens, work visa's, etc. but those who are citizens that were born here too. I don't have a problem helping everyone that comes here legally, it's the ones here illegally that are taking from the ones that have put into the system.

"It's not racist when you're illegal."
That depends on what you're talking about. There are plenty of things that can be racist when a person is illegal. I don't think this new law is one of them though. I don't think it's racial profiling either. The law refers to any illegal immigrant. That means if you're from Italy, France, Canada, Spain, Iraq, Mexico, etc. and you're in Arizona without legal status your butt is getting deported. If it said "Mexico and Mexicans only" then it would be racial profiling.

Suzette - posted on 05/08/2010

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@Laura & Mary Elizabeth,

No they will not need to carry a birth certificate or a passport. In Arizona in order to get a Driver's License or State ID you have to have a birth certificate in the first place, or proof of birth that prove that you were born in the United States (or a territory thereof). If you do not have this because you are a naturalized citizen, have a Visa, etc. then you have to have that documentation in order to get a Driver's License or State ID in the State of Arizona.

Either way, you cannot get a state ID card or driver's license in the state of Arizona without proving that you're allowed to be there LEGALLY. If you're illegal and you're pulled over, with reasonable cause, then you're not going to have a valid ID, driver's license or otherwise. IF you don't have that ID on you when you're pulled over, they can look it up in the system. (They've pulled my mom over when she didn't have her DL and they were able to look it up, call it in and do so.)

When it comes to other states, there are other states that have this same type of set up where they are not able to get a state id or driver's license without proving legal status. I'm pretty sure Arizona will have a list of those states. For those that do not require the same documentation - I'm guessing that's something that they're working out.

Dana - posted on 05/08/2010

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I think the point being made about driver's license's is that you have to have one or a State ID to show. Meaning we already have to show identification, what's another form of identification going to hurt.

[deleted account]

in TX they are cracking down to stop illegals going to school without having proof of residency and they are legal. if they catch a family with no proof they are from here they will get sent home and get in trouble.

it's not america unless someones complaining. they complain about illegalsd and they go to fix it and then they complain saying its racist. its not racist when you're illegal.

it makes me so mad that they can come here and get free medical no questions asked and get a free ride and some dont even stay and we get a letter saying to keep our daughter on medical we need to prove citizenship,if we are not amerian or legals dont worry about it legals and americans only need to. its bad enough our own people are getting denied help to help them and our own people dont have jobs but they can come illegally and work and what not.

where we lived there were so many illeals and it made me mad to know that they get away with everything and we have to prove all this crap.

Isobel - posted on 05/08/2010

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That's what I thought...there was just so much talk on this thread about carrying your driver's licence though, I began to think maybe I had misunderstood something.

ME - posted on 05/08/2010

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No Laura, they don't. People, by which AZ means Hispanics, will have to carry their passport or BC to avoid getting in trouble, or at least to avoid severe inconvenience...THAT is why it's unconstitutional...

Isobel - posted on 05/08/2010

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I'm a little confused...do your drivers' licenses have proof of citizenship on them? cause ours don't, you would need to carry your passport &/or birth certificate or I guess immigration papers...kinda risky stuff to carry around.

I also see this law as creating a whole new industry to exploit illegals (fake papers)

Suzette - posted on 05/07/2010

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Sharon C,

Those who are hard working, who contribute to our society (as I stated before), I have no problem with. I don't think it's fair to just deport them and their entire families. I think that they should be given a chance to stay here given that they can get citizenship legally. If they can't get citizenship for whatever reason, then I'm sorry, they shouldn't be here. There are some of those that are hardworking and have families that are here illegally, that are only hard working as a front. They do things illegal behind the backs of their families. Is that fair for the family? No. Should the family be given a chance? Yes. But if they're all here and the parents have done something criminally in their prior country, then they should be sent back. We shouldn't keep their children, first of all it's not right and second of all, we have a system that's over flowing with our own abandoned and needy children.



I hope that the kids you taught fared well, but the parents are not setting good examples to them by showing them that doing things illegally is the way to get where you want to be, or get what you want. And that is an example that they're being taught.



*I just realized that I needed to edit this since there were two different Sharon's... how that escaped me I have no idea. LOL.*

[deleted account]

Suzette, you are right. One bad image of a law enforcer, and someone as highly publicized as Joe Arpaio definately does not speak on behalf of the entire state of Arizona. The majority of my contact with Hispanic families is mainly through my position as a teacher, and yes, that is the extent of it. I am certainly not a regular part of Hispanic culture, their homes, in their churches, etc. But I do listen to my students, especially my 7th & 8th graders in their views. I think of all of the students I must have had over the past 10 years whose status was unknown to me, and of those students who I knew as illegal. What ever happened to these kids? Some of them were really good kids and hardworking parents, despite the fact that they were here illegally.

Sharon - posted on 05/07/2010

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Oh not to be morbid but the "give me liberty or give me death" thing... its fast approaching that. Only the criminals will have liberty. The rest of us will live in a prison of fear or die on the streets amid rampant crime.

Not only are these illegal immigrants killing american citizens, they're killing each other in mass numbers.

did you know that they steal children from their mothers to sell them to the sex trade?

did you know that the women are frequently raped?

did you know that if you somehow angered your guide, he will leave you to die of thirst in the desert?

did you know that your guide will protect himself first and leave you and your amigos in a semi truck parked in the blistering heat of Arizona - 100+ degrees EVERY SUMMER. HERE, we don't have 2 or three days of 100F temps. We have weeks of it.

Do you know what happens when you begin to die of thirst? I was told that it is incredbily painful. That your blood turns to sludge and your body begins to break down, leading to all kinds of pain. But in searching for a medical reference, all I found was a news article (talking about human voluntary death by starvation) says its "serene" and another one claiming its, "cruel & agonizing." But it happens all the time.

I have been stuck in the desert (thank you moron boyfriend, 1 1/2 mile hike my fucking ass, it turned out to be SEVEN MILES) with a single bottle of drinking water. By the third mile I was looking for cacti to hack apart. WE were lucky. We were hiking to a waterfall and came across a stream. That doesn't happen in 99% of our desert.

Corpses are found weekly here. Most are years old.

When a group of illegal immigrants are found there is usually someone missing, a full scale search and rescue is launched to find the non-us citizen person. Not because we're intent on irradicating all illegal immigrants but because surviving our desert is very hard to do. Because between the gila monsters (north america's ONLY poisonous lizard) the rattle snakes, the scorpions, the coyotes, bears, cacti, jagged rocks, impossible heat, lack of water... ITS A DAMNED PAINFUL DEATH.

If we can make that journey fruitless maybe it will slow the flood a little. As it is now do you know what we the USA taxpayers do when an illegal immigrant is found? Full on medical care. If they have a heart condition its treated until they're cured, if they have diabetes, need dialysis they get treatment until they're cured, get a transplant etc. because we have a rule/law/hospital policy that a citizen can't be sent somewhere to die without treatment, which is what would happen in Mexico.

This whole thing sucks. The only ones seeing a damn good thing in this are the drug dealers and coyotes (guides for the illegal immigrants).

Sharon - posted on 05/07/2010

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Quoting: So Sharon...if Arizona's demographic somehow (magically) shifted...and the triad became an issue...you would have no problem providing your ID and dealing with all the hassle and questioning (at any given moment with no notice) might entail (including being late to pick up the kids from school, being late for work, taking an extra hour to pick up the groceries)? End Quote



No, I've been there already. I also hang around to give my witness statement when I witness an accident even though I don't have to. I have a moral obligation to do so.



BTW - the Triad is Chinese, if my peoples' illegal mafia came to power it would be the Yakuza. But the Triad sounds cooler and if you jumble the letters, you get TIRADE.



Quoting: What I.D do you carry if you failed your driving test? End Quote

All states offer a simple ID.

Suzette - posted on 05/07/2010

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@Krista,



The drug cartels aren't marijuana - though they sell that too - it's mostly heroine and cocaine - the stuff that they're mixing together that's causing massive damage to our children and young adults. (And those that are a little older still stupid enough to buy the crap.) That's the stuff that they're bringing over, they have mules for it too.



As for :

"But I have a feeling that, like in most things, we always hear more about the ones who are shit-disturbers. The ones who come here illegally but quietly go about their lives and just try to make ends meet and maybe send a little help back home to family -- we never hear about them."

My grandparents came here very young, my grandmother was in her young teens, my grandfather in his late teens. We're not sure if my grandmother came legally or not, but we know she did get her citizenship (we've seen the proof). I also know my grandfather got his, he fought in the Army after he was naturalized.



They met here, he left the Army, and he worked his butt off in a cotton field (if I recall correctly) in Marana, AZ. (Along with numerous other odd jobs.) He supported her and the 9 kids they wound up having, almost 10 except she had a miscarriage. He would take money back to Mexico to help support their families their too. She worked at home, providing day care to the families in the neighborhood and making food from her home to sell.



One of my Tia's is currently dating a naturalized citizen from Guadalajara.



Her daughter - her husband is from Nicaragua. They have a little girl together. But they're all doing it the right, legal way. It took a lot of time but they were determined to get it done because they wanted to be here.



One of my other cousins was dating an illegal, he was here doing everything the right way. Working, taking care of her and her children, sending money back home, etc. He got pulled over on his way home from work by border patrol and he was deported. He's currently working his butt off trying to become a naturalized citizen. It's going to take a long time, but he's extremely determined to be here, not just for her but for himself.



There's a family that is a friend of our family, his entire family became naturalized when he got a work Visa and brought them here on that. (It took some time, but they eventually got their paperwork.) You wouldn't even guess that they're not from the United States, there's a slight accent with the father, but they speak perfect English.



Every one of the people that I'm talking about, they agree with this law. They're not worried about the racial profiling, they agree with it because of the murders, drug cartels, the dangers that are happening in Southern Arizona where they live (and I'm from). It's becoming more and more dangerous there.

Suzette - posted on 05/07/2010

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Sharon,

Sherriff Joe and his antics do not make up the entire Arizona population, or the entire law enforcement population in Arizona. (As I'm sure you're well aware.) He is an extremely bad example of the many good officers that are there that do good things in Arizona. You can bring him into the conversation and allow people to point fingers and build up the fear mongering if you'd like, but he's going to be one bad apple mixed with a couple of others, and there will be many who outnumber him and those bad ones that already do their jobs properly (and many who do them now properly). I'm sure that my friends who are cops would be extremely offended if they heard they were compared to the bad apples like him, just because those apples exist doesn't mean they're going to rot the entire barrel. That only happens if others allow it. As for an "un-Arizonan" looking individual, if you live there you'll know that looking like an Arizonan means looking Hispanic or Native American. The white people are the majority, at least in Southern Arizona, where the majority of the problem is. I've been to Northern Arizona, and from the people I know there, they don't have a big problem with illegals there. As far as you not being effected because you have "white skin" this goes back to what I said before, you must not have met that many Hispanic people, or mixed with their culture much. I've met quite a few Hispanics (some in my family, some that are illegals, and some that are naturalized citizens) that have white skin, blue or green eyes, and dark hair... and yes, they're Mexican. So if you think that they're honestly profiling based upon skin color and that the educated police officers (not like Sherrif Joe) won't know better, then you're wrong.

@Tawny, I do agree about those that have been hear for years upon years, 5-10 yrs, and they're not causing trouble but contributing to society. I wouldn't know what a good time frame is, or even how to put a time frame on that. But if they're actually contributing to society, they have a family for themselves, they haven't been committing crimes, etc. then I don't see the harm in allowing them to do things the legal way. (I wouldn't just make them a citizen though. They'd have to do it the way everyone else does, but let them stay here while doing so.)

@Krista, Someone else stated earlier, if you don't have a driver's license then most people (everyone I've ever known in Arizona and other states) have some form of a state identification card. You can't buy alcohol, cigarettes, or even cash a check without it. You can't even open a bank account or go to college without one. You have to have a form of identification with a picture on it and the only other form is a state identification card. (Also has the same guidelines for proving citizenship to get one of those as a DL does.) So that would suffice just as much as a DL would.

@Jenn, as for the video, I stated that there would be officers who misunderstood it. No one is perfect, like Sherrif Joe who will attempt to abuse the law - I hope that he tries and he gets his butt sued and the Arizona court kicks him out on his behind. (While I like what he does with the pink tents and keeping costs down, I don't like his racism.) I honestly think that the state officers (dot) misunderstood this, I don't think they did it on purpose to be racists. Seriously, the bill had just come out, it wasn't even law yet, and they screwed up. (Everyone makes mistakes, though if it continually happens - there's no reason for it.) There was something a while back, and I cannot recall what it was, about Mexico and Arizona's truck drivers and a new law... and I wish I could remember what it was. If I do, I"ll post on it later. (Pregnancy brain, sorry!) I know it was something with more stringent laws for Mexico's drivers.

Krista - posted on 05/07/2010

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That's part of the reason that I think that marijuana should be made legal, regulated, and sold in the same way as liquor is. Yes, there would still be drug cartels, but it would definitely knock a fairly sizeable bit of wind out of their collective sails.

It's bizarre, isn't it? If I was so desperate to get out of Canada that I was willing to risk my life and freedom to illegally enter the U.S., you would THINK that I would stay on the straight and narrow and be the most law-abiding person ever, in order to avoid detection. It's so strange that some of these people have no respect for the country that they wish to call home.

But I have a feeling that, like in most things, we always hear more about the ones who are shit-disturbers. The ones who come here illegally but quietly go about their lives and just try to make ends meet and maybe send a little help back home to family -- we never hear about them.

[deleted account]

Tawny, I agree with many points you raised about entering the country legally. Especially when the illegals who have been practically raised here and have no real sense of culture other than "American" culture. Over the years I have had several students yanked out of school becasue of the illegal status and the parents were caught. Sadly, these were great students! I have a current 4th grader right now who knows he is not here legally and he is scared that if he & his family are deported, then he will not have a good education. Tawny, by any chance do you live in the East Valley?

Tawny - posted on 05/07/2010

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I live in Arizona and since all what has been going on here one of the news stations are reporting from the border of AZ and Mexico. So every night we here stories of what is going on with different things like the ranchers or the illegals that are coming over. Last night I was watching and they showed that they send out about 800 illegals a week out of the Williamsfield airport. For each illegal it cost $600 a person and they go out 3 times a week ... this is what is coming out of Arizonas pocket. The group that they showed last night were all from Guatemala, all of them new english real well because most of them have lived here since they were 13 or 14 years old and the only reason they are going back is because they got caught doing something illegally like one gentleman was from New York lived here most of his life but came over here illegally became a chef, married and has children, he got into a fight and was arrested and they found out he was illegal. So he has to leave his family and go back to Guatemala. Now I am not happy about the illegals that are here because I feel that they should of done the right steps to do it. But I do feel sorry for the ones who have been here for years and have lives and family and get caught. Because if they haven't been caught until now then what is the difference they should stay. This is just my opinion but I feel that if they have been here for that many years then they should be given citizenship but the ones who have been here not that long need to go back and come over and do it correctly and get legal. I know people will say that im contradicting myself but oh well I dont really care.

There are alot of things that is going on here in Arizona I think it is sad that we are being called the racial profiling state because of some people who are being stupid and racial profiling. I did find out that if the police, sheriff officers are not doing there job that they can be sued. I thought that was interesting and it is not right... I think that the bill should be rewritten it is not fair for the people who are living here who may look mexican or have darker skin or have a slight accent to be targeted.

I think the biggest thing that I am concerned about is the Drug Cartels,it is a problem in the southern part of AZ and it is getting closer to the Phoenix area. We have had killings of innocent ranchers, ranchers getting beat up because they found drugs on their property, children getting kidnapped, women being raped and houses being broken into. Alot of the complaints about the illegals that the ranchers have is that they want them to respect there land and stop leaving trash and killing there cattle. The ranchers have owned there lands for many years and are use to the illegals coming across but lately there have been more illegals and of course they are battling the drug cartels. The drug cartels are using the illegals by strapping drugs on there bodies and sneaking them over, So I think that it is going to get worse for us here in Arizona because Im afraid that AZ will be bankrupt in this next year so they will need to either refraise the bill or do something different. Yes there are too many illegals coming over and it is becoming a problem but I think more than anything AZ needs to focus more on the Drug cartels but in all honestly I have no clue how they would do that. Im for the bill to a certain point just not the racial profiling...

[deleted account]

Sherriff Joe is an outward racist and evidence has shown that more Hispanics are "victims" in his jail system that any other race. Further more, Sherriff Joe has outwardly stated "Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply in Maricopa County." So much for upholding the law! His own sherriffs have even spoken up against him, and have been reprimanded for doing so. Yes, it is a fact that the sherriffs do round up more illegal immigrants than any other county only because Sherriff Joe is behind street by street sweeps. That is unconstitutional! But I'll reiterate again, if we are now at a crossroads in American history that need to carry citisenship cards, then we ALL need to carry citizenship ID. Hmmm, I think it's time to reread 1984 by George Orwell and bring on the Think Police.

Krista - posted on 05/07/2010

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I also had Joe Arpaio in mind when writing a lot of my comments -- evidently he's a nasty piece of work.

[deleted account]

I am an Arizona citizen and even though I have lived here for only 10/5 years, I can certainly voice my opinion on what really happens here on a daily basis. Things you don't always see on the finely edited news.

Yes-there is a huge illegal immigration issue. I don;t think one AZ citizen can deny that fact. Yes, there is a huge issue at Border Patrol and the fact that illegals are bolder, braver, and deadlier than ever. Yes, there needs to be SOMETHING done to prevent the lawbreakers getting into this country in the first place.

This is the problem that I have with the bill: the racial profiling part. And if you truly don;t buy into the theory about racial profiling, then it is clear that you don't truly understand what goes on in Arizona. In Maricopa County, Sherriff Joe Arpaio makes regular immigration sweeps and calls for huge press conferences bragging about how he takes his sherriffs and trains them to sweep sections of towns to seek out the illegals. So yes, they are outwardly looking for those suspicious brown skinned, Spanish speaking "UN-Arizonian" looking individual. The sherrffs DO stop people on the street, whether at a bus stop, walking home from the grocery store, or just being outdoors. Racial profiling is the part that many Arizonian citizens find unconstitutional! We know there is an illegal problem. But to stop people on the street for "LOOKING" like yo umay be illegal happens everyday here! For those who do not live here and do not watch nightly news in AZ won't know that. For those who believe that racial profiling DOESN'T or WON'T happen as a result of SB 1070 is not witnessing it first-hand. I agree with the part that says if you are stopped for a traffic violation or other crime, then providing documentation to prove residency is valid. But to then show USA citizenship on top of that? Of course I won't be affected since I have white skin. My Irish neighbor won't be affected becasue she has white skin. Hoever, my Phillipino friend (a naturalized citizen) is certainly nervous becasue of her skin color. If you are here legally then that's not a problem. But then EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN should be carrying around citizenship papers. Students in my school have now been seen wearing t-shirts that spew "BROWN IS THE NEW BLACK". I would welcome every single one of you to visit Phoenix at the Capitol Building in opposition of SB 1070. I am ashamed that this bill puts Arizona on the racist map. And trust me when I say that ONLY brown skinned people are being targeted. Yes, we need to fix the illegal problem, but it starts at the BORDER-not rounding up "suspicious" looking (brown) people.

Rosie - posted on 05/07/2010

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i do agree that there needs to be clearer guidelines as well krista. that i will agree with. i've heard things like if it's a huge van filled with people that gives probable cause (smuggling) for the officer to ask. i agree with that, but i'm positive that there will be some racist prick cop who goes a bit further and asks for no reason at all. clearer guidlines would help with that.
i do agree with the bill though, something really needs to be done.

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