Is the feminism movement dying? And is it a good thing?

Denikka - posted on 06/25/2013 ( 13 moms have responded )

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http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/06/24/...

Kind of long, but there are lots of good points I think.

I've long had issues with most of these types of movements. The feminist movement, while it once held merit, no longer seems to. As one of the people posted:
"Modern feminists are fanatics and do more harm when it comes to the attitudes of people in general towards women than help. Sure it can be said not all feminists are fanatics, but that doesn't matter when they become the face of the 'movement'. . . . . No, feminism is dying. It's dying because it's not about equal rights anymore, it's about having an excuse for women to say whatever they want and however they want it and smugly think they are in the right"

I find that to be largely accurate in those who have proclaimed a feminist leaning. I realize not all are like this, but those with the loudest voices tend to be, and tend to get the most attention.

I honestly hate that there is black rights, Native American rights, minority rights, women's rights, disabled rights, gay rights, etc etc etc. What happened to plain old equality? For everyone? Regardless of race, size, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I want to see people fighting for HUMAN rights instead.
This whole thing with having to have so many women in the workplace, or so many *visible minorities* or whatever else...it's bull. Plain and simple. To me, it's just another version of racism (or sexism or whatever) and segregation. Were I a visible minority who got hired at a place with a policy like that in place, I would always wonder if I had only gotten hired because of my skin color. Same with being female. Those who are most qualified should get the job, get the promotion, get the rewards, and it should have NOTHING to do with anything but your performance.

I'm teaching my children to be color, gender and sexual orientation blind. That should be the LAST thing you see about a person. It's a description at best. *I'm standing beside the black guy*, it shouldn't be any different than saying *I'm standing beside the lady in the red shirt* or *the bald guy*.

I think all this fighting for the rights of each individual group is quite self defeating. Just by fighting for a single groups *equality*, you are segregating yourselves. By fighting for gay equality, womens equality or whatever, you are saying *I am different from you and I need to be acknowledged as being different and you need to single me and my group out to say that being different is okay for me*..and usually, this involves a certain amount of special treatment that other groups don't get (Black history month, Gay Pride parades, visible minorities getting preferential treatment when getting hired, all the perks that Native Americans receive, etc).
We're ALL different. And, in the ways that matter, we're all the same. And THAT is what needs to be focused on, in my opinion.
Freedom should be freedom. Equality should be equality. And the same rules should apply to EVERYONE.

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Donna - posted on 01/27/2014

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In response to JPatrick Feminism is emasculating men because: Men are treated as subhuman garbage - in the media, watch television, mainly talk shows with female hosts who humiliate, laugh at and degrade men on a daily basis. (think Sharon Osbourne). In the public school systems which are run by women for girls. When did you last see a male public school teacher or principal? Go into any public school and see the feminist propaganda plastered on the walls. Example: Girls in Afghanistan can't go to school. Where are the posters saying eight year old boys in Afghanistan are drafted for military combat. There are none. Boys are animals, they don't matter. The Universities where men are not allowed to attend women's studies classes or form all male groups of any kind. The work force where men are verbally and sexually abused and can't do any thing about it - women can and do get away with it because they know men won't fight back, as they have been taught since childhood to cater and pander to females. Also, if a man dared to file a sexual harassment charge he would be laughed out of the room, or the woman who the charge was leveled at would lie and make it out that he was the perpetrator. Also, I am so goddamned sick and tired about hearing the old "women don't get equal pay" "patriarchy oppresses us" "rape culture" shit (all feminist propaganda lies) I could throw up!

Jodi - posted on 06/26/2013

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"Mentioning race in just about any context (standing beside the black lady or sitting behind the table with the four black guys), not to mention if it's mentioned in any kind of negative context (authorities are looking for a black man in connection to a robbery) seems to bring a huge bristling."

So, do you say standing beside the white man or behind the table with the four white guys? Or "authorities are looking for a white man in connection to the robbery"? It think you will find that FREQUENTLY, the descriptive "white" is left out. So I can see why people are bristly about it. Why should black have become an adjective to describe someone in any circumstance when we often don't use white in the same context?

"Specifically having to have a certain percentage of women and visible minorities in the work place is another thing. Those who deserve the job and who are most capable should get it."

If this had actually been happening in practice, then we wouldn't have the issue. One thing to understand is that minority groups have notoriously had less access to education and jobs BECAUSE of their colour. Even after segregation ended, believe me, there was still informal segregation and discrimination. There still is. They NEED these opportunities opened up to them in order to get out of the cycle of poverty that they are in. So such policies serve two very important purposes: (1) they prevent discrimination by a company (because we all know there are those who wouldn't hire a black person even if they WERE the best person for the job, and this practice needs to stop) and (2) minority groups need the opportunities in order to ever be equal. When the day comes that no black person is discriminated against when being the best person for the job AND getting the job, then such policies will be irrelevant, but until then, if equality needs to be enforced, by all means enforce it.

I work in a school where the Australian Aboriginal population is about 10%. For a suburban school in my city, this is actually quite high. And believe me, these people NEED opportunities to get out of the position they are in. Our school has a specific Indigenous Education Officer JUST for them - he does home visits, gets to know their families, provides support networks, focuses on understanding their individual situations. By your theory, this would be reverse racism, because we don't have a non-Indigenous Education Officer doing the same thing. HOWEVER, because of past racism and discrimination, despite the fact it was several generations ago, these are the families who continue to need that support and those opportunities available to them in order for them to ever be truly "equal".

Sure, they have the same rights as us, they fought for them. But that doesn't make them feel that they are equal, because the fact is, while they are formally equal in the eyes of the law, they are still subject to huge informal discrimination. Their rights are violated on a regular basis! So until the informal discrimination is dispensed with, then we need to have formal policies in place to ensure it doesn't happen.

JPatrick - posted on 07/16/2013

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How exactly is feminism emasculating men? Those that respond simply assert it, please elaborate with some (any) examples of how that is supposedly occurring. Fighting for equal pay for equal work, strong anti-sexual harassment policies, abortion rights, etc. - why would that emasculate a man or break up families? And how is it about 'giving our children to the state'?? What feminist group is advocating for that, or are you ladies just listening to too much Rush Limbaugh? I think now more than ever than various states are trying to restrict or eliminate rights to reproductive freedom that prior generations have fought for, it is absolutely still a necessary movement.

Sally - posted on 07/12/2013

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If feminism were really about equality, it would be a good thing, but that has never been the case. It has always been about breaking up families, emasculating men, and giving our children to the state and that has been proven time and again to be a very bad thing. I wish it were dying, but I'm not that optimistic.
Color blindness is good when deciding who you want to associate with, but to take color, gender, race, etc. out of descriptions is silly. Why would you want to make it harder for people to tell which member of the crowd you want to tell them something about? The 5' 6", 150 lb., red-haired, Hispanic woman is a lot easier to find than "that person over there".

Emma - posted on 07/09/2013

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The feminism movement was doing well, until it started trying and successfully achieved the emasculation of men. This century sees men afraid to be men, and evolution interfered with, pretty soon, we will be more masculine than men themselves.

Leave our men alone Feminazis, enough is enough!!!!!

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I think that feminism still has a place, as does the fight for the rights of other marginalized groups like homosexuals and visible minorities. Women still aren't equal to men, just as visible minorities and gay people are still discriminated against, just in a subtler way as it's less socially acceptable to be discriminatory. I do agree that the same rules should apply to everyone, but the reality is that they don't.

Lauren - posted on 07/22/2013

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Since the abortion movement was brought up--take a look at the extremists in that battle (on both sides). You've heard of those anti-abortioners (I won't call them pro-lifers) that bomb abortion clinics. As a pro-lifer myself, what idiots! But recently, I've been angered by pro-choicers. How on earth are yelling at children, trying to get the law to force a raped 12-year-old (who wants her child) to get an abortion or throwing used tampons at legislators going to help your cause? I'm all for people fighting for what they believe, and I do believe there are fights that still need to be faught in most areas, but seriously, how do those types of actions help your cause? That's not feminism, that's stupidity!

Emma - posted on 07/12/2013

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Sally, oh yes, been there done that, anything, ANYTHING other than describe the color of his skin!!!! What a ridiculous way to try and counter racism, anyoone with half a brain would understand that racism cannot be defined in a word, or a description, racism is an 'intent' to hurt. .

As for Feminism, certainly modern day, these women are basically pimping our men!!

Leave them alone, they are meant to be macho, they are meant to be chivalrous, they are meant to be romantic, and as for 'forcing men to understand women' why bother? We dont even understand ourselves, how in gods name are they supposed to understand us?

All you Feminists out there, thanks for helping us get the right to vote, thanks for striving for equal pay in the workplace, and thank you for fighting for Abortion rights, but I think we can take it from here now, , and for most part, we still love THE PENIS AND we preferably like our men as God made them, hairy, strong and a little bit thoughtless, but altogether rather wonderful in their own right.

Denikka - posted on 06/27/2013

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I guess my problem is just that I honestly can't understand racism. I really, honestly and truly can't.
I personally would say *I'm standing behind the 4 white guys guys* or whatever. Skin color is a description in my mind. Absolutely no different than eye, hair or shirt color. And yes, even on the news, when looking for a suspect, they usually include race (at least on the news that I watch I guess, I rarely see them not include it)

I suppose I grew up with the fanatics, That's why the movements get to me. I grew up with Natives who (most of them anyways), who demanded special treatment (teenagers who expected to be compensated for the residential school tragedy (not their grandparents, THEM specifically, who had never even seen a residential school), special classrooms (where they literally learned and did nothing but surf the internet or play online games because they *needed a break from the stressful, *white man's* curriculum), who, instead of working (or attempting to get a job) sat on welfare because they deserved it (over 90% of the people in the welfare office at any given time were native, and I heard this over and over. YOUNG people (20-25) actually stating they DESERVED it because the *white man* stole their land), the list goes on and on), black people in my area were not a common sight, there were only about 20 in my school of about 1400, but just about every one I came in contact with had some chip on their shoulder about how they deserved to be treated a certain way because of slavery (and considering most were 1st generation immigrants directly from Africa, it more than baffled me). I grew up with girls who claimed the feminist path, claimed they wanted pure equality but still expected the chivalry behavior from their boyfriends (opening doors, paying on all dates, etc) and would get upset when expected to act in a lady like manner in any way shape or form (I can distinctly remember in dance class one of these girls-whose boyfriend was a true gentleman and treated her like gold-throwing a FIT because the girls were expected to curtsy and the guys were supposed to bow while we were learning ballroom dancing), or when actually treated equally (like going halfers on dates, etc).

In Toronto, a second *Africentric* school has been established for black students. In my hometown there were a couple Native schools. White kids couldn't get in, period. Kids of other ethnicities couldn't get in. While I appreciate that the reasoning and thought behind it (specifically the Africentric school), is to help with the massive drop out rate of certain groups, wasn't it just 50ish years ago that the black community was just winning the fight AGAINST segregation in schools? And now THEY are the ones separating their black students from the others.

To me, that's what these movements have become about. Not about equality. It's become about wanting everything you have, plus more.
Apparently there's a limit on how many words a person can post on here, because part of my last post got cut off and it won't even allow me to edit it.
But as I said in my last post, it's not the equality that bothers me. People ARE equal and should be treated as such. It's the victim roles that so many get caught up in, the *I deserve because I'm. . .* that I've seen so frequently from those claiming to be part of those movements. Those with the loudest voices tend to become those who represent a group, and, in my experience, the whiners and demanders have been pretty loud, while those who are truly on the side of equality are comparatively silent.

Denikka - posted on 06/26/2013

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I do see your points, Heather and Jodi.
I do understand that each group needs to fight for its right and that each one has different rights that are being abused (gay people not being allowed to marry would be a perfect example of a problem that one group has and most others don't)

What really bothers me is that it seems that each group (I say group, not individuals, and most groups are generally represented by the loudest members, not necessarily the ones who hold to the beliefs of the majority. But the loudest get the most attention and end up being the *face* of that movement) is not really fighting for (what *I* would term) equality. It truly seems like preferential treatment in many cases. It doesn't start out that way, and I know that's not the basis that most groups form around, but that does seem to be where most groups end up.
I'm not against groups fighting for equality, but it seems like it ends up being over compensated to a point where it still turns into *this group* against *that group* with just the roles reversed in some ways. Things become okay for the group that was fighting for equality that just isn't okay for the other group.

Black people wanted equality with white. Absolutely agree with this. 100% Skin color should not dictate how you're treated.
But now people are so OVERLY sensitized to skin color that any little thing will bring out calls of racism. Calling someone the wrong *black* term for example (African American, negro, black, etc. Any or all may or may not be offensive to any particular person). Mentioning race in just about any context (standing beside the black lady or sitting behind the table with the four black guys), not to mention if it's mentioned in any kind of negative context (authorities are looking for a black man in connection to a robbery) seems to bring a huge bristling. I have known of and seen parents get reamed out by black people if their (small) child asks about the darker skin. I have frequently seen the race card get pulled out specifically to GET preferential treatment in multiple different situations. And I realize that that is an individual problem, but they are doing it in the name of their cause, and getting away with it because of that.

Specifically having to have a certain percentage of women and visible minorities in the work place is another thing. Those who deserve the job and who are most capable should get it. But I have heard many stories of men and/or white people getting turned down for jobs that they are extremely qualified for, and have that job go to someone not as qualified based on the sole reason that that they are not women or not a visible minority, and that company needed that representation to avoid the problems. I know in my area, there's always a little box to check on the application asking if you're Native American and, if you can check that box, you will get a preferential look at your application.

Native American rights, seem to have gone haywire to say the least. I have seen schools specifically for natives (status to attend), having a few friends who are natives, I see many of the perks that they get, like a huge break on taxes, no hunting or fishing permits needed, the extras they received in school (which were above and beyond to an extreme in my school), they don't need to pay for secondary education, one of my friends had a VERY expensive (and unnecessary) dental procedure performed (purely aesthetic) and it cost him roughly $500 plus after care, for a total of about $750 (the entire thing would have cost almost $10,000 if he weren't native).

East Indians who wear a turban are not required to wear a motorcycle or bike helmet, in fact, the first RCMP to wear a turban was recently brought in to the organization, which is offensive to me, because the mountie hat has been a symbol for the RCMP for a VERY long time, and he's now the only one not required to wear it. It's a uniform. All pieces are required. To me, it's like flouting that tradition.

It goes the other way as well, with the whole Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays fiasco.

I have seen conversations on here (and been involved in some of them) where gay pride has been spoken about. Gay Pride parades are something that many people are all for, but mention, even jokingly, a straight pride parade or straight pride in just about any context, and you get jumped on as being against gays, being narrow minded, or any number of other things. Same thing with Black History month, or any celebration of *minorities*. If you even dare to suggest an equivalent for those NOT in a minority (aka, white, straight, etc) people tend to get highly offended...to say the least.

It seems like every group, even including many of the non minorities, are trying to claim some sort of victim status instead of focusing on the real issue of equality.
I totally agree that there are many worthy causes that need attention, many groups that do need to fight for equality, but I think at this point, it's gone beyond that in most cases, especially in cases where the fight has been going on for an extended period of time.
It seems like in many cases the differences are being forcibly more pronounced by their respective groups. Those differences shouldn't make ANY difference in how a person is treated, but it's hard to remember that when it's being constantly rubbed in your face that *this group is different in this way*.

The real reason behind fighting for equality seems to have been lost, or is being lost, in all the extra crap, the victim roles, the stepping on one set of toes to get off another set.
In the case specifically of feminism, there was a meme that summed it up pretty good for me and what got me really thinking about all this in the first place. It was a picture of a man figure and a woman figure:
What men think of gender equality:
Men=women
What women think of gender equality
Men

Jodi - posted on 06/26/2013

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"By fighting for gay equality, womens equality or whatever, you are saying *I am different from you and I need to be acknowledged as being different and you need to single me and my group out to say that being different is okay for me*..and usually, this involves a certain amount of special treatment that other groups don't get "

Actually, I totally disagree with this statement. Individual groups often NEED fighting for. Mostly these groups have ALREADY been singled out and segregated before the rights movement began, and it is only through a civil rights movement for that group that the group has managed to put a stop to massive inequality.

So while I agree that equality SHOULD mean equality, the FACT of the matter is that there isn't equality. Black ONLY gained official formal equality through targeted action. Gays are ONLY gaining rights because they are targeting gay rights issues. Why should they even feel the NEED to HAVE to fight for their rights in the first place?

Until the day comes that people don't feel the need to have to fight for their rights because they are not discriminated against, then I think it is quite "rude" to claim they are getting preferential treatment in any way. Believe me, the discrimination came first, not the fight for the rights.

Lady Heather - posted on 06/25/2013

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Well I most certainly do not agree. How on earth are gay people supposed to gain the right to marry if they don't fight for it? It's not like all the straight couples are stepping up and calling for equal marriage rights. I suppose that's another way of putting it, but let's be honest - one group has it and one group doesn't. The one that doesn't needs it. What we need to do is get on board when we see another group fighting for their rights. I'm pro-gay rights. I'm pro-father's rights. I'm not gay or a father. We need men to say they are okay with calling themselves feminists because most men technically are feminists. I'm a masculinist. Lol. Of course all the rules should apply to everyone. But they don't. Yet. That's why these things exist. How do you propose we get equal rights? Make a march on the white house with signs asking for equal rights in everything? It's too ambiguous to get noticed.

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