Judge orders homeschooling family to send kids to school/daycare for 'socialization'

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Amanda - posted on 05/09/2011

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Good for this judge. When in Canada if you Home School each year you have to show the school board what you will be teaching your children, and how you will be teaching them, which then has to be approved by the school board. If you do not do this CAS can come remove your children, for them not being in school. At any time through out the year the school board can request to see your childs work (a check up to make sure they arent falling behide)



This judge did clearly what he/she was suppose to, these parents didnt show the school board what they were teaching their children, therefore they are suppose to be in public/cathlic school.

Isobel - posted on 05/09/2011

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So you don't have a job then? cause yeah, most of us are FORCED to work with people we don't like...sure you can quit...if you don't need to pay the rent or feed your kids.

and if I dropped out and switched colleges every time I hated a prof of a compulsary course, I'd be going to school in Argentina by now.

and yeah...if you want to be successful today, you NEED a degree or a trade and you can't get that if you drop out every time you bump into somebody you don't like.

Cyndel - posted on 05/09/2011

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Since the judge ordered government funded day care for the younger two I think this is just another attack against homeschooling. Most homeschool parents do an excellent job and their kids are well socialized. I was homeschooled for all 12 grades, I had plenty of friends and social activity. Not an everyday thing, but in today's world people think socialization must happen more often then truly necessary. I saw my friends 2 times a week, some times a little more, sometimes a lot more. But that was all I needed, we also had neighbors to play with. I wasn't lonely, I had my brother to play with if our neighbors couldn't, we learned to get along and play well together, which honestly i think all siblings need, to be forced by circumstances to learn to get along and play together.
There is so much stigma against homeschooling in circles of people who have never known homeschoolers, or at least not good homeschoolers, I have met both during my homeschool life, I have met homeschool families who should have sent their kids to public or private school because the parents weren't doing crap and the kids weren't getting any kind of education. I've also seen parents who never went to collage homeschool so well that all their kids went on to earn full time scholarships to collage and stayed in the top 5 of their class. I've seen it all. Judge each homeschool family individually, not by one bad or one good example you have seen.

Vegemite - posted on 05/08/2011

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Laura that's not true sometime i'm forced to deal with my 3yr old when i just don't want to. ;) I don't know what to say on this story except HS is strictly monitored here and teachers are provided for internet, radio or phone classes I hope it is everywhere else.

[deleted account]

Even as a sahm.... gotta go shopping, etc... There are all KINDS of people out there that I'd rather not deal w/.... lol

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Erin - posted on 03/04/2013

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The family needs to file for an appeal. As long as homeschooling is legal in that state then the judge has made an error in law. Despite what people may think, judges can't order people to do whatever they want to. It's another example of the socialism in our country peering it's ugly head out of the government's behind.

Laura - posted on 03/02/2013

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That's what happens here in public US schools....see Virginia SOLs....teachers are forced ot teach to the test OR ELSE....we're outta this mess this fall!

Isobel - posted on 05/10/2011

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I suppose you COULD change schools whenever you bump into somebody you don't like too.

If you want to look at it like that nobody forces ANYBODY to be near somebody they don't like.

...unless of course they want to survive on this planet.

Tia Melissa - posted on 05/10/2011

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Laura: Don't assume that I don't have a job or that I've never held one as the sole provider for myself and a young child with a deadbeat ex who did nothing to contribute to her care.

You're offering false arguments. Nobody is talking about running away or quitting every time a difficult situation arises. As an adult, YOU make the choice to remain or to leave as YOU see fit for the reasons you DEEM appropriate. That is part of the privilege and responsibly of being an adult. If you need to pay the rent and stay at a job you dislike, or with coworkers that you would rather not be involved with, that is your CHOICE. Nobody is forcing you, by law, to stay where you are - unless you work under a contract or live in a non right-to-work state/country. If you were being severely sexually harassed in the work place, I suspect that you would choose to look for employment elsewhere in order to pay the rent and feed your family. I did. Every scenario you give is one based on you CHOOSING to do or not to do extrapolating possible future consequences. Did I say that the choices were realistic in some cases? No. But the freedom of CHOICE is still there.

In my area public school does not offer a CHOICE - which is how this whole discussion started. You take what you get and honestly, if you complain or try to change things, they can make your life extremely difficult.

Tia Melissa - posted on 05/09/2011

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I have to respectfully disagree with some of the comments on dealing with people you don't want to deal with.

As an adult, you don't have to go to a store where you don't like for whatever reason you don't like it. Heck, there's a lady who checks at my local supermarket that I cannot stand - she's always making unnecessary comments to everyone about everything she sees that she doesn't like - which is each time she blinks her eyes. I go to another line or self-check. I don't have to interact with her. If I don't like my local motor vehicle department, I can mail in my registration or go online to pay it. If I get bad customer service at a restaurant, I can choose to complain or take my business elsewhere. I don't have to use any specific bank nor, like my daughter, spend 7 hours a day in the company of the local (suburban, middle-class, bedroom community) drug dealers or the prostitutes & their pimps, with whom she would not voluntarily interact. If I don't like my neighbors, I don't have to ride a bus with them or gather with in the commons awaiting 1st period. If I don't care for a professor, I can choose another college, challenge the course or register for another class taught by someone else. Even though the economy is tough, I am not forced to stay at a job where I disagree with the ethics of the company or work with people that I simply do not align with. I may choose to stay for various reasons but it is still my choice. I am not limited to buying my car at any one particular car lot or using any one particular car salesperson.

In our local public schools, you get who, what, where and when you are told to get. They are not there to serve the needs of the children in the community. You are there to conform to their rules, lump it or like it. The only thing we can do is endure until graduation.

Isobel - posted on 05/09/2011

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well...unfortunately they have also had to teach kids to stop beating, raping and killing each other for being different.

all history is opinion. And learning music increases a child's aptitude for maths and sciences.

In your opinion then, should English class ONLY cover grammar and no literature???


wow...I know I have a lot of questions, I just really AM curious what makes people like you tick

Tia Melissa - posted on 05/09/2011

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"Wow......is there some reason you think it is the school's job to teach moral values?"

Actually I think it is most certainly *not* the school's place to teach moral values nor is it the place of the school to teach values the parents don't agree with. Honestly, I feel that schools should stick with the basics - reading, writing, math, historical fact (not perspective), scientific process, music, art and language - and leave the rest of the interpretation, (morality and value systems) to the parents, whatever those may be in each family. But I also believe that schools should be administrated on a local level to meet the needs of the population they serve. I'm all for local, in as much as it makes sense, for all forms of infrastructure.

Isobel - posted on 05/09/2011

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based on the reading I did...it sounds like the parents are ultra paranoid about people and were teaching the children that the outside world was evil...makes sense to me to send the kids to daycare for a few hours a day rather than take them from the parents.

[deleted account]

The only other thought I have to add is.... how the heck can you mandate that a 3 year old HAS to go to daycare? Over here they don't legally have to go to school until the school term that starts after their 6th bday. How can anyone MANDATE school before the law says they have to be in school? Or does the law in that area require that all 3 year olds attend school? Otherwise, I don't care if she's homeschooling or not.... mandating a 3 year old to attend daycare is absurd.

Isobel - posted on 05/09/2011

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Interesting...cause I'm pretty sure Tara DOES homeschool here and all she needs to do is send out a letter :/

and I always giggle a little about people saying they are tested and have to provide their work because (and NO, I'm not saying this happens a lot), but if you ARE a child abuser, what's to stop you from filling all that stuff out yourself?

Amanda - posted on 05/09/2011

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When I looked into home schooling for my son (due to behaviour issues, and threats of being kicked out of the school system) I was told differently Laura (I'm also in Ontario). That I would actually have to show that I have the means and educational tools to teach my son, as well as provide that letter saying what he would be learning at home that year, which the school board had to approve (the letter back to you is the approval) I was also informed that at any time the school board could ask to see his work.



Thank god he smarted his act up, and I never had to do home schooling.

Isobel - posted on 05/09/2011

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which means that where I live, in Ontario...you can lock your kids in the basement and throw food down to them and nobody would ever know so long as you send your letter out on time

Tara - posted on 05/09/2011

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@Amanda,
it's not true that in Canada hs'ing parents must show the school board and education plan of what and how you are teaching your children, each province has their own guidelines under their own provincial education policies. Just as the curriculum varies from province to province so do the guidelines for hs'ing.
In Ontario it is covered under section 13 of the education act.
I sumbit an annual letter of intent to provide home education to my children. They send me a letter that exempts them from attendance at school under section 13. They can ask for a education plan if they have received a complaint or feel that there is a need for proof of schooling but it rarely rarely happens.

April - posted on 05/09/2011

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I read somewhere in the article that one of kids has an hearing impairment? Hearing impaired children are notorious for struggling with socialization or appearing to struggle with socialization. I am hearing impaired myself and have been since I was 3 years old. I know what it is like to only hear/understand part of a conversation. Sometimes it is such a struggle (even today) to pay attention to the whole conversation that I just tune out. The giving up part...that can make a child appear to not be socialized. Sometimes it is just annoying to have to try so hard to do something that is effortless for most people. Anyway, my point is that lack of socialization cannot be blamed on homeschooling.

Lucy - posted on 05/09/2011

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I think without seeing the kids and seeing how they interact with others, it's hard to say whether these kids should be forced into school or allowed to be home schooled.

I've always held the opinion that you get some good schools, some crappy ones, and that the same can be said of parents who home school. As such, I think home schools should be regulated and inspected by a neutral body in the same way schools are here in the UK, and if they come up short, socially, emotionally or academically, steps should be taken.

In the UK, if a school is judged to be failing, it is given a certain period of time and extra support (which could be a new head, new staff, resources etc,) to improve, or it will be closed. I do feel that the same standards should be applied to home schools.

I find the article Jodi posts quite interesting. Although it does sound like the authorities are being rather heavy handed in implementing their policy on religion and relativism, the policy itself just seem like common sense to me! It seems to me that nobody is trying to undermine religious teaching at home, but merely putting it in context.

I see nothing wrong with saying to my kids "this is what I believe, these are the values I hold dear and wish to raise you by, but some other people believe a bunch of different stuff." We have a strong family faith, and I think if we felt that was threatened by our kids knowing about the existence of other religions it would be a bit odd.

Mel - posted on 05/08/2011

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I do think there has to be some form of social contact other then family, or they would not learn to make friends etc. Everyone whoI have known who was home schooled had a tone of trouble when starting high school, one of my closest friends whom I only met in year 8 after she'd been home scholed her whole life along with her 7 siblings, left after a few months. She didnt know how to interact with people and couldnt realy make friends. She was a very intelligent person though and I suppose the pluses are your kids not being involved in all the bad stuff. I do think there must e more to this story though. I would assume theres lots of people in the same boat who arent forced to put their kids into daycare

Jodi - posted on 05/08/2011

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"I suspect, though they couch it in other terms, that the real reason is that the family is Catholic and teaches morals rather than the state version of "everything's OK if it feels OK". "

Wow......is there some reason you think it is the school's job to teach moral values?

Isobel - posted on 05/07/2011

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a) we looked it up and there WAS reason to believe there was more to the story

b) You must be a stay-at-home mom because that's the only job I can think of where you aren't FORCED to deal with people you don't want to deal with

Tia Melissa - posted on 05/07/2011

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I don't think there is more to the story at all. There are some states/countries that have more stringent guidelines on HS'ers than on public schools.

And PFFFT! on "the kids didn't do well with other kids at first" junk. They were in the age range where new kids NEVER do well coming into previously established social structures. I hated moving to a new school - public schooled all my life. If they've been taught to interact politely with all ranges of ages rather than know how to navigate the cliques & bullies, they are going to be at a loss as how to deal with it. What about class procedures? How would they possibly know what to do on the first day out? Seems they were looking hard for things to nab them on. Perhaps the children are naturally quiet, respectful and reserved.

Public school is the sole time in your life where you are FORCED to socialize with people you would normally never encounter or be divided by age range rather than ability and interest. That's not socialization at all. I have one in a middle class suburban public school and she now knows drug dealers, prostitutes & their pimps, gang members and so forth. I am fortunate to live in a state where HS laws are not stringent at all.

I suspect, though they couch it in other terms, that the real reason is that the family is Catholic and teaches morals rather than the state version of "everything's OK if it feels OK".

Isobel - posted on 05/07/2011

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I don't know the rules either...but I know it's not mandated federally. And it should be.

[deleted account]

I thought they meant tests provided by the government or local schools. I must admit my ignorance on how it works in Canada. In NYS it's my understanding that homeschooled children must pass proficiency exams created by the school system, not the parent.

Well then that does change my support a bit.

I must also point out that I'm not a fan of homeschooling 95% of the time.

Isobel - posted on 05/07/2011

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Which is one of the things that generally leads me to say that there needs to be more regulated.

Isobel - posted on 05/07/2011

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home school tests are only supervised BY the mother so...who's to say she's not just teaching them the stuff that's on the test...making them memorize it...then testing them

that's not learning

[deleted account]

"It also said that her teaching was "outdated" that she only had the kids repeating excercises over and over not really "teaching" them anything."

But per their mother, they are passing all the required tests. So they must be learning. Rote learning worked for a lot of children and while certainly it's not the ideal for all children (myself included), it may be a style that works quite well for hers.

[deleted account]

"It also said that her teaching was "outdated" that she only had the kids repeating excercises over and over not really "teaching" them anything."

But per their mother, they are passing all the required tests. So they must be learning. Rote learning worked for a lot of children and while certainly it's not the ideal for all children (myself included), it may be a style that works quite well for hers.

Tara - posted on 05/07/2011

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Was that in the article that Jodi posted? I must have missed that part.
It's a fine line, I have come across only a couple of hs'ing families who really are doing their kids a disservice by their teaching methods. Such as writing lines, using only scripture to teach everything. That is a big one, you can't only use the Bible to teach everything, and unfortunately there are some nutters who think you can.
So yeah, I revise my stance to... not sure anymore. no time to look into it either. party time in one hour. need a shower,

Isobel - posted on 05/07/2011

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"Their reasons are always the same and regard a social mistrust that does not meet the needs of their children,”

seems like a polite way of saying she's a nutter that's collecting guns in the basement for armageddon.

It also said that her teaching was "outdated" that she only had the kids repeating excercises over and over not really "teaching" them anything.

Tara - posted on 05/07/2011

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After reading the article Jodi posted, I'm on the side of the family, and not just because I homeschool. I don't homeschool for religious reasons, but if I did you bet I would be pissed if the government decided for me that I had to teach a certain curriculum based religion.
They should move to Ontario. They would fit in with almost half the homeschoolers in my province. We are split pretty much 50 % secular hs'ers and 50% religious hs'ers.
To order a family to place their pre-school aged kids in daycare is tantamount to oppression. Why should anyone have to send their preschool aged kids to daycare!?!? If it was a case of them not being "normal" because they have been isolated and oppressed etc. fine, but it's not. This judge is whacked and I hope they win in the supreme court.
In Ontario we have the OFTP, and it's an amazing organization.
Sad that the quebec government doesn't want to actually see the stats, read the studies etc. re:homeschooling.
In fact there is an unschooling family from quebec, the dad wrote a book called "for the sake of the children". And they were unschoolers, not homeschoolers, and they were not religious (I don't think anyways).
Anyhoo, stupid judge, poor kids.
I would freak if a judge ordered me to put my kids in school because I wasn't teaching them about all religions.
It's not like they're not learning maths, english etc.

[deleted account]

After reading that Jodi, I must say that I'm on the side of the family despite my general anti-homeschooling stance. Those reasons given by the judge are ridiculous.

Jodi - posted on 05/06/2011

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Not sure about the daycare thing, but it possibly has something to do with problems the older kids have had socialising when going to regular school?

Merry - posted on 05/06/2011

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Thanks Jodi! That's a more detailed article, but it still doesn't make sense why they are doing this, yes they might be sheltering their kids more then usual, but since when is that a crime! I mean kids do just fine without daycare all the time' and a hearing impairment doesn not indicate a parents lacking in ability to care. Unless it's abuse inflicted of course which doesn't sound like it's the case.
I think it's a bad ruling, I don't see why that judge would order this.....

Jodi - posted on 05/06/2011

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Maybe this will shed a little more light:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/quebec-...

It was the 3 year old AND the 5 year old who were ordered, not just the 3 year old.

The older children have already been ordered into school last year due to run ons with the local school board (not sure on the detail there).

Anyway, this article has more info on the other side of the argument. It seems there is disagreement about her curriculum, and also on their social stimulation.

Jenn - posted on 05/06/2011

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Just the fact that they ordered a 3 year old into daycare speaks volumes. If they were not receiving a proper education, then I could understand making the older kids go to school, but why does a 3 year old NEED daycare? So does that make people like me, horrible parents because my kids didn't go to preschool or daycare? Ridiculous.

Merry - posted on 05/06/2011

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I'm sure hslda is biased, but it is a reputable resource for homeschoolers. I couldn't imagine how daycare would be necessary. If the kids are being so badly parented I'd say they would need to be removed, not sent into the public system. If they aren't being misstated to need to be removed, then I'd say there's not much sound reasons for forcing daycare and public schools on them.

Joanna - posted on 05/06/2011

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The only reasons I can see government forcing home-school children to go to school would be A) parents are unfit to homeschool, meaning not actually teaching anything, not having any materials, etc, or B) not allowing their children out at all. I didn't see anyone in the story that said anything like "neighbors report never seeing the children out of the house", etc. I doubt the parents never let their children play with others.

Minnie - posted on 05/06/2011

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I agree there has to be more...I'm sure the website is biased, after all and I'm 100% pro-homeschooling despite the difficult situation I'm in right now. But really- forcing a three year old into day care for socialization? Even many public-schooling families don't send their tots to day care.

Merry - posted on 05/06/2011

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Yes it seems like only half the story, but the fact hey claim the hearing mpaired child needs school??.......idk, seems fishy!

~♥Little Miss - posted on 05/06/2011

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There has GOT to be more to this story. Like, if the kids are never allowed in public, and kept strictly at home without any sort of socialization, I can't say I would disagree with the verdict. But who knows, this seems like only a piece of what is the reality of the case.

Lady Heather - posted on 05/06/2011

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It's neglectful to stay home with your kids all day and teach them? How bizarre.

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