New circumcision research is changing minds

Katherine - posted on 02/24/2011 ( 389 moms have responded )

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re-posted from cafemom

It's hard to find a more contentious parenting issue than male circumcision. Okay, extended nursing in public -- that might do it. But if you want a fight, simply declare, loudly and proudly, that you're an intactivist. Or you just got back from a bris, and wow was it magical!

To add another element to the argument, new research has not only the Center for Disease Control but also the American Academy of Pediatrics coming out with a strong stance on circumcision, whereas before they stood back and let other people duke it out. And one side of this penile debate is not going to be happy.

After research showed that circumcision helps prevent not only STD transmission, but also HIV, the AAP and CDC are drafting a pro-circ position. Of course, we don't know what the two authoritative organizations are going to say exactly, so it could still lean "but you go ahead and do what you think is best." Which, quite frankly, is what today's modern parent is going to do regardless of the recommendations.

Because if you think circumcision is mutilation, this study isn't going to sway you. Although if you were somewhere in the middle and had a big decision to make, it's possible you would go with the circ to help with the odds of your son contracting a disease down the line. That is what intactivists are afraid of: a trend that has turned back the recent progress in the movement.

Today about 50% of baby boys are circumcised, which is the lowest rate seen in modern times. Having two well-respected medical sources endorse the health benefits of circumcision could change those stats. As someone who believes it's no one's business what goes down in anyone else's pants -- cut or uncut -- I know it would make me think twice if faced with the option again today. Whether or not it would actually sway me? I dunno.

I would hope the kid always carried a condom, but as a former teenager, I also know that's not realistic. So yes, this throws a monkey wrench in the argument when you start thinking about the safety of your own child.

What do you think about this new research, and the CDC and AAP taking a new position?

http://thestir.cafemom.com/baby/116633/n...

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Krista - posted on 02/24/2011

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Rebecca, your comparison is kind of flawed. Yes, things can go wrong with our body parts, and if they have to be removed, then so be it.



But routine infant circumcision would be like if they just routinely removed every baby's gall bladder at birth, just on the off-chance that the person someday has a problem with it.



Why remove something if it's working just fine?

Krista - posted on 03/02/2011

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I'm definitely did the right thing with my son and will do the right thing with all future sons should I have any more. If they wait until they are older, it actually becomes much more painful then at birth. They'll remember it more if it is done at an older age.



You're making a BIG assumption there, LadyJane.



You're assuming that they'd want to have it done when they're older.



What if they didn't?



And if they remember it more and experience more pain, isn't that USUALLY how things go when someone decides to get plastic surgery? I certainly remember my breast reduction, and definitely experienced a lot of pain. But I'm still damn glad that it was my choice to get this done and that my mom didn't have 50% of my breast tissue removed the day that I was born, under the assumption that I'd want to get it done someday anyway.



And you know, LadyJane, you have yet to give anything resembling a real reason for circumcising.



You SAY you did research on it, but over and over, the only reasons you've given for circumcising are that your family has done it for "ages" (a claim I find highly questionable, as routine infant circumcision was definitely not common until about 1925 or so. So the odds are quite good that your great-grandfathers would not have been circumcised.)



But yes, getting back to your reasons...I have to ask if you do a whole lot of thinking for yourself. Because in this debate, you've done not much else besides repeat over and over that your whole family circumcises.

Jodi - posted on 03/02/2011

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"how can you argue with facts."

What facts?

Also, the Australian medical community has agreed that any potential benefits do not outweigh the risk, so they do not recommend circumcision. SO what facts are we talking? The fact that the US is so backward on this issue?

Minnie - posted on 03/01/2011

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I typically don't care what the intent of the OP is in this community. If it's posted in 'Debating Mums' the general consensus is the subject matter is up for debate.



Regardless of why Katherine posted it- it was posted in Debating Mums and the subject matter was the AAP and the CDC reviewing their stance on RIC based on a few studies. Thus we debate the validity of the studies and circumcision.

Tara - posted on 02/24/2011

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There is no amount of science that could convince me that nature fucked up and males are better off without a foreskin. Nature is as perfect as perfect gets and unless there is something WRONG with a foreskin, it is meant to be there.
The foreskin is a natural protector!!!

This conversation has been closed to further comments

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Sarah - posted on 03/05/2011

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@Amy- yeah thats it, and golden staff is the thread of that that doesn't respond to antibiotics where as regular staff does :)

@Laura, they all sound like good reasons too! I would probably have done the same thing in your situation!

I hope you don't feel guilty about it. you were doing what you thought was right, and you obviously did your research. It's just a shame that its so hard to find the negatives about circ there. :(

Merry - posted on 03/05/2011

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Yeah, complications are more common then most people know. And unless they have to be hospitalized it's called 'minor' which sucks because a little boy having pain in his penis sure sounds 'major' to me :/

Sarah - posted on 03/04/2011

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@Laura Hoffman - Awe I'm so sorry that happened to your little man! :( I know that's gotta be so painful for him. I hope I wasn't being too nosey when I asked that lol, I was just curious what caused you to regret it.

My best friend's little boy is almost a year old & he had some issues with his circumcision, too. Not exactly sure what the problem was, but his kept getting really red & was extremely painful for him. You could just tell he was in pain everytime his diaper was changed. Not sure if the issue is resolved or not. :(

Merry - posted on 03/04/2011

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The reasons we decided to circ.
1. Biggest one being that we knew Eric had hydronephrosis of one kidney and we knew a catheter would be used in some tests. My cousin had similar issues and when he had a catheter placed his for skin was scarred and damaged by the dr pulling it back. So we figured circ him so he can't be scarred by a catheder. (now we know you can place a cath on an intact boy if the dr is taught how to do it!)
2. We were told that circ lessened the risk of uti and since hydronephrosis can cause uti, we thought it would be a good prevention. (the amount of uti prevention is so negligible that it's honestly not worth the risk of the circ for the benefit of the uti protection)
3. Was a friend telling us how awful it is for men in nursing homes to have their for skin cleaned by nurses (but hey, the nurse is wiping your butt when you poop too right, so honestly self consciousness goes out the window no matter what)
4. We knew circ lessened sensitivity and we thought that was a benefit because most men tend to ejaculate before their women are able to orgasm. We figured lessening the man is like evening the playing field so they last longer and give the woman a chance to orgasm. (now we know the foreskin can actually make sex feel better for the woman, and maybe help her orgasm so it's not really clear which way makes it more likely for the woman to orgasm)
5. My mil told me she watched all her boys being circ and she said they were well managed for pain and weren't in distress
6. We thought the majority of America and the world were circ
7. We thought it was safer to do it now, then to risk it needing to be done later cuz we were told that it's common for intact boys to need circ later in life (not true, but we believes our source)
8. Didn't know there could be complications with it, didn't know anyone died from it, didn't know about any men who regretted it. Lack of info there
9. Our obgyn assured us she wouldn't take too much skin off, and that she would be able to mange his pain effectively.

So those were our reasons for doing it. And I do have one thing good to say, when Eric did have the cath placed on two occasions, it was before we knew about not retracting intact boys foreskins so if he had been intact, odds are the dr would have pulled back his skin and damaged it. Soo that's my only consolation for circumcising him. But maybe if we had chosen to leave him intact I would have learned that fact before hand.... There's not really anything making me feel ok with our choice, mostly just sucks. His circ has caused us all alot of pain. Hopefully the pain is in the past now for him, but for me and matt it will be around forever.

Sarah - posted on 03/04/2011

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Wow thanks Erin! I really understand now :) They all sound like really good reasons when you don't know of the dangers or think of it as morally wrong :)

Yeah heaps of boys die from the anesthetic :( by heaps i mean around 100 a year in America, which really isn't that many, but its too many considering how unnecessary it is :( The others die from complications like a bad infection, but that would usually result in amputation of the penis not death, and i don't think that is so uncommon. In Australia we have a major bacterial infection in hospitals called golden staff. I don't know if it's in America? But i know that is a huge killer of anyone who has surgery or any little cuts while in hospital because it doesn't respond to antibiotics.

[deleted account]

To throw reasons out there for y'all who are confused...I will acknowledge that some of these reasons are kinda dumb, especially considering it is not a penis that I will be seeing past diaper changes and baths nor will be having any type of sexual encounter with. With that said:

1. cleanliness-please keep in mind I never did actual research for this before my 1st born or really after that either :( So yes this is debatably not a valid reason :/ However, at the time i was going off of my experience growing up w/4 brothers. During middle school my parents were hard press to get my brother (coincidently the uncirc'd one) in the bath. @ one time he went an entire month w/out changing!!! Granted it became a bet of sorts so he was egged on to continue this, but none the less YUCK! THis was only kinda reinforced after hearing a nursing home nurse encourage the practice as it becomes someone else's responsiblity after the aged male is no longer able to care for his own hygeine.
2. Appearance: looking back on the moral issue (which I never really considered there being one prior to this post :/ ) this is arguably the stupidest reason... When I asked my husband why he wanted the boys circ'd looks was one of the main reasons. :(
3. Previously I never really considered this a "cosmetic" issue...always looked at it as a health issue.
4. My friend whose boy was uncirc'd and had an infection :( Granted this may have been caused by prematurely pulling back the foreskin :( As previously posted I do not know how to care for an uncirc'd penis...but the experience, although after my 1st born, only reemphasized the need for my 2nd.
5. All, minus 1 for $$$ reasons as this procedure is NOT covered by insurance, the boys in my fam are circ'd. All the boys in my husband's fam are circ'd. His brothers all had the ring procedure that is left on the penis until the forsekin falls off :( I can't even imagine!!! All of theirs the ring slipped and did not completely remove the foreskin. All this enforced for us was the way in which is needed to be done, not that it shouldn't.
6. our uncirc'd friend told us that he wished that he would have been and that we should do it. My brother who wasn't was super quiet and shy, we assumed for the same reasons as our friend-embarrassment over being different. We have actually had thorough coversations w/our friend, not soo much my brother...
7. Locker room harrassment, as the growing #s of ppl NOT doing it this may work out against us...

This is all I can think of at the moment. Since we did #1 doing #2 wasn't even a question, it was just done...I did not know that they could possibly die from the procedure? My husband is happy with his penis and felt it was best for our boys, I guess... I trust him to make the best decisions for our boys and didn't know that we were putting them in harms way :/ We didn't learn about the better sex belief until after already having it done for #1 and even then it was better for her that we heard...so I didn't think I was decreasing anything for him necessarily. IDK...I guess because the decision was made for #1 it was apparently seen as a blanket decision for all future male children. I do not plan to have more children to fight this or not... Frankly I feel that even if we miraculously had another male child I would lose the fight anyway!

Merry - posted on 03/04/2011

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@ Sarah bell, a few pages back :)
Yes Eric had a "minor complication, a common side effect" his skin reattached after the circumcision. I had to force ably rip the skin off the head of his penis. He was over a year old and was old enough to now associate every diaper change with possible pain, he is scared for me to touch his penis to wipe it. It reattached about 4 times, each time less severe but each time was pretty traumatic for us both. When I found out this is a pretty common side effect, I started looking into it more and more and now have disproved every reason I had to do it in the first place. I had quite a few reasons I chose to do it, and I felt each was a valid reason. Now I've found facts that prove every reason false. Ironically, HIV was never a reason I thought valid, I mean circed or not, if you have sex with a person with stds or HIV you are likely to catch it or carry it. A bit of skin taken off didn't make sense to prevent that! Lol

Jodi - posted on 03/03/2011

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Teresa, thank you for the explanation :) We'll leave you alone now, LOL......

Minnie - posted on 03/03/2011

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I promise I would never badger you if we were talking in person, Teresa. I've never once brought up my stance on circumcision with a family member or friend who has circumcised. It happened, I leave it at that. I'm completely NOT like I am here on debate boards in real life. I come here to argue.

I totally understand what it's like to have low blood sugar and NEED food right now. :).

Jenn - posted on 03/03/2011

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And to further clarify - the reason isn't because you felt it was the best choice - I mean WHY do you feel it was the best choice.

Jenn - posted on 03/03/2011

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I think perhaps if you phrased your answer differently, people might feel more satisfied and stop pestering you. Here's an example:
I personally did not have my son circumcised BECAUSE I did not see a need, it is considered cosmetic surgery in Ontario now and is not covered under OHIP, his father is not circ'ed, and after reading some info about it I learned that there are a lot of sexual nerve endings in the foreskin and didn't want to remove those for no medically needed reason.

So - you had your sons circumcised BECAUSE why? What are the reasons. If you could list the reasons why, no matter what the reasons are, people might understand where you were coming from in your thinking. You don't have to justify the reasons, but what ARE the reasons?

Tara - posted on 03/03/2011

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When I think of all the monetary gains made by doctors who do circumcisions in the US I wonder how much the public is swayed by the medical establishment.
As well in light of the number of deaths each year, one would think the medical community would try to eliminate the number of circumcisions performed to reduce the number of deaths and complications, but nope, in places where medicaid pays, there are higher rates of circs performed...

""Circumcision is a $2 billion healthcare market, which includes costs for the pro- cedure itself, dealing with complications, and payment for repairs (Fauntleroy, 2001). A study of Medicaid records found that a greater number of circumcisions are per- formed in states where Medicaid pays more for the procedure (Craig & Bollinger, 2006). A busy delivery-room obstetrician will do as many as five circumcisions a week. Physician reimbursement is at about $167 each6 (Van Howe, 2004), which means that they can potentially make an extra $3,340 per month, or $40,080 per year. That is more than an entire year’s income for 45% of Americans (US Census Bureau, 2005). "


We hear very little in the media about circumcision-related deaths compared with other causes. For instance, compare the 117 annual deaths from circumcision with those from other causes for male infants: suffocation (44), mother’s use of addictive drugs (27), HIV/AIDS (19), homicide (17), automobile accidents (8), drowning (2), and falls (1) (CDC, 2004). Sudden infant-death syndrome (SIDS) killed 1,216 boys under the age of one year in 2004; of those, 115 were under the age of 1 month (CDC), which is the same risk as from circumcision. Approximately 36 teen-aged boys are killed in school- yard shootings each year (Donohue, Schiraldi, & Ziedenberg, 1998). But there is more publicity for the SIDS deaths and shootings than for the circumcision-related deaths.

From Dan Bollinger, Article publishes in The Journal of Men's Studies, scholarly/peer reviewed. "

[deleted account]

I only posted to say that just because you don't agree w/ a person's reasons for circumsizing does not automatically make them wrong. that was my only intention in posting on page 17 and I clearly stated that.

I can't debate. I hate debates (and yes, I'm well aware I'm in a debate board... I just like you people).

My personal belief is that it was the right choice for my son. That is all I've got, so I CAN'T debate.

I know, stupid, huh? Sorry. I WAS getting highly annoyed, but I'm hungry and I'm lucky to form even semi-coherent sentences when I get like this.....

I'm going back to being completely uninvolved in the circumcision battle.... ;)

Sarah - posted on 03/03/2011

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Exclamation points aren't an expression of anger.
I know you don't wish to change my mind, but i thought by commenting in this debate you were attempting to help us understand and offer some insight. obviously i got that one wrong!
I know you didn't say it was a religious belief that's why i asked you what your PERSONAL belief was, if it is not because of what god thinks you should or should not do...

Jodi - posted on 03/03/2011

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It's just annoying asking questions and not getting answers other than "you'll never agree anyway". So what? It's a debate. We probably won't agree. But by discussing it, it helps gain a greater understanding about the various point of views, whether we agree or not.

[deleted account]

I never once said that religion played a part in my decision. I said BELIEF did. Religion and belief are connected, but not mutually exclusive.

[deleted account]

Angry? Who's the one using repeated exclamation points? I'm not angry. Just frustrated. I have no desire whatsoever to change your mind and wasn't trying to do so. It seems to me that anticirc people get just as annoyed w/ circ people as I do w/ pro-choice people.... ;)

Amy - posted on 03/03/2011

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You're not stupid. It does bring up a valid point for religion in circumcision choice. Most people haven't read their Bibles and those passages all really help in determining what to do. We did the same thing - tons of prayer, lots of research..we just ended up with a different outcome. My nephew did end up with tons of problems. maybe my son would have had problems if i'd have circed, maybe you would have had problems if your son wasn't. It all works out.

But I think people just want to know what it was about the religion that so strongly swayed you. I think. maybe not. What I got out of it was they were trying to figure out what verses, etc helped you get to your choice.

Sarah - posted on 03/03/2011

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wow RELAX Teresa!

Jodi is right, i am trying to understand!

No need to get your knickers knot :(

You can do whatever the hell you want! But it is wrong to make decisions about someone else's body especially when it will make a difference to him one day when he would have been ready to make the decision for himself!

i am trying my best to understand peoples reasons for circumcision but its not easy when every question asked results in the other person getting angry!

[deleted account]

It's not possible for anyone to understand and accept. It is a pointless debate. Which is why I stayed out of the debate portion for 17.5 pages and why I never should've made a single post on page 17. That was my stupidity and I apologize for it.

Jodi - posted on 03/03/2011

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" if He really doesn't want it to happen He will be the one to put the roadblocks in your way."



But HE provided the foreskin in the first place!!! I just don't understand this logic :( In my mind, the logic would be that if He didn't want the kid to have a foreskin, He wouldn't have provided it in the first place.



No-one is asking you to turn the clock back. Heck, my son is circumcised, I can't change that, and I don't feel guilty about it. But I see it very differently now than I did then. Back then, I left the decision up to his dad - I don't have a penis, so what would I know, that was my reasoning. Pretty poor reasoning, but I didn't even know it was a debatable issue back then.

Jodi - posted on 03/03/2011

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Teresa, I think people are just trying to UNDERSTAND the reasons why people choose to circumcise, and just can't fathom the "because I believe it was the right thing to do for my son" is necessarily a reason. You are right, anti-circ people are NEVER going to agree with you or LadyJane, or anyone else who agrees with circumcision. But only by debating the reasons can anyone gain any understanding.

[deleted account]

What the hell difference does it make? Would you like me to turn the clock back 3 years and NOT do it? Would you like me to bow at your feet and say you are right and I'm a horrible human being for making this decision?

Cuz neither one of those things are going to happen. If he gets pissed off when he's older, I'll deal w/ it then. As of now.... he's pretty darn happy w/ his 'toy.'

[deleted account]

The way my pastor put it to me (not the circumcision issue, but any issue) is.... if there isn't a direct commandment against it and it's something that you feel is right.... Pray. Unless an angel appears to you to tell you NOT to do it.... Proceed cuz if He really doesn't want it to happen He will be the one to put the roadblocks in your way.

Yes, I know. The above statement won't make a lick of difference to anyone.

Sarah - posted on 03/03/2011

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And yes Teresa i can understand that you thought you were doing the right thing for your son. good on you for trying to do the best for him...
but does that mean that you don't think he has a right to make decisions for HIS OWN BODY? I'm sure if your parents removed part of one of your organs, which impaired you to some degree, you wouldn't be to happy with the reason 'i felt it was best'

[deleted account]

Open-minded would be able to accept that some people have the right to choose things you don't agree w/ w/out being badgered about it. I have 4 uncircumsized nephews and while I feel circumcision was the right choice for MY son.... I'm 100% accepting of the fact that many people don't agree......

Amy - posted on 03/03/2011

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And Teresa - I think that you are right that it is what you thought was best for your son and you don't really need to justify it. Sometimes we just do things because our heart/gut tells us it's the right choice. I just personally couldn't find good reasons to do it, so I didn't. Perhaps one day my son will want it done and wish I'd done it as an infant. who knows. time will tell along with tons of "new" research. lol.

Sarah - posted on 03/03/2011

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I am very anti-circ but a lot of reasons make sense to me! Like Laura was uneducated and was trying to do the best for her son, i totally understand that! I understand misinformation, i understand medical reasons, and i respect REAL religious reasons!
Unless someone can tell me this procedure is proven to be harmless and can cure cancer or something i won't be changing my mind :)
But i still consider myself open minded on the topic because with evidence contradicting everything i believe about circumcision i would happily change my mind and preach to everyone to chop up baby willies :)

Amy - posted on 03/03/2011

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All I've read in the new testament basically says circ-ed or not, but that you follow the word of God. We even talked to our pastor about it and he said it is not at all one of God's requirements [unless you're jewish, i think -and they do it 8 days after birth, i think???]. So that one didn't fly for us as a reason. I read every passage I could on it in the Bible. I went by new testament since I figured we are under the new law since Christ came and all. If we just go by old testament, we shouldn't be eating pig or working on sundays still. I think some of the old laws were to keep bloodlines pure until Jesus got here.

But anyway.....still think this article is flawed in it's "findings". When I think of the safety of my child, I don't think about what his penis looks like, but how he will conduct himself as an adult when it comes to making decisions about his body and sexual activity.

[deleted account]

I believe it is the right choice for my son. Period. No other reason is needed. I did what I felt was best. It is MY belief that it was the right choice. I have no problem owning it. I was simply trying (and obviously failing) to point out that just because someone circumsizes because of their beliefs does not automatically make it a crappy reason. Just one that you don't agree w/ which isn't surprising since you won't ever agree w/ any reason.

[deleted account]

To your second point.... there is a part in the Bible where circumcision WAS commanded..... Yes, I know, it's old testament, but obviously God didn't have a problem w/ it at one point, so why would you assume that He has a problem w/ it now just because you do?

Sarah - posted on 03/03/2011

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Out of curiosity Teresa, what is your belief about circumcision?
if you recognize that god doesn't necessarily want you to do it, what is the religious point of it?
or is it a belief you have made up yourself and choose to put your faith in?
Just wondering! :)

[deleted account]

Did I say any of that? It's also my belief that God gave me these kids to raise to the best of my ability. Which is what I'm doing.

It doesn't matter what I say, you won't agree. That's why I spent 17.5 pages of this debate staying out of the purpose of the debate. I'm not interested in debating circumcision. Just that ANY reason why someone may have had their son circumsized won't mean squat to ANYONE that is against circumcision... ever.

Tara - posted on 03/03/2011

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Why should there have to be a commandment against something for it to be understood that it isn't what your God wants?
Why should it have to say "Do NOT circumcise your boy" if it doesn't say not to and it doesn't say you should, most rational people would assume, there is no mention of it because there was nothing wrong with the foreskin to begin with.
That would be like saying "Well God didn't say NOT to remove my daughters labia, But he didn't say I should remove it so it must mean that I SHOULD remove her labia."
Makes no sense to me.

Tara - posted on 03/03/2011

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Because Teresa, it's not your penis. And if your beliefs led you to have your son circ'd than that is a reason you chose, for your reason, not his, he did not choose to have this done to please his god, you had it done to please your god.
It's not the same as an intactivist saying "It's medically unnecessary and risky surgery that is cosmetic in nature"
That is a reason not to circ, but to say "my god says I should or it is part of my beliefs" is not a reason to take that control over another persons body.
Why would your god make an imperfect penis? Why would he require a mans parents to remove a part of his creation for that child to get into heaven? I just don't get that bit.

[deleted account]

I said I was following my belief which is not just from reading the Bible, but also from a personal relationship. There is no commandment saying NOT to circumsize (unless the passage is misunderstood) just as there is no commandment TO circumsize. It's a personal belief, but it is a belief. :)

Jodi - posted on 03/03/2011

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Teresa, what part of the Bible are you following when you say that you circumcised because of your faith? I am curious, because from my understanding, there IS no reason for Christians to circumcise based on their faith, because of all the reasons given.

[deleted account]

My beliefs are one of the reasons I chose to circumsize.....

Why is that any more or less a legitimate reason to circumsize? If you are against circumcision it doesn't seem to matter WHAT reason a person would give to circumsize.... you won't agree w/ it, so beliefs are just as much a legitimate reason to the person that WOULD circumsize for that reason.

Minnie - posted on 03/03/2011

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The purpose behind the religious discussion was Christians defending their choice to circumcise as a tenant of their faith, which it is not. Looks, tradition, misinformation regarding cleanliness, function and disease, a Christian may circumcise for- but they cant sit there and say "I circumcise because the Bible tells me to!"

[deleted account]

My only comment is about the Bible quoting. It doesn't say DON'T circumsize. Just that circumcision isn't what gets you in to heaven... Since the people he is 'talking' to were all about following the law and NOT about having faith.

Carry on.

Sarah - posted on 03/03/2011

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I'm just curious Laura, why do you think it was the wrong choice for your son? Did he have some complications from it?

Merry - posted on 03/03/2011

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I know even after I had realized I made a mistake in circumcising Eric I spent a good long while defending circumcison. I felt like I had to defense my decision even though deep down I knew it was wrong. It was protecting my self. I thought that if I said circumcision is bad or wrong ror unnecessary that just dug my in deeper into guilt about doing it myself.
So I defended it for a while, and then realized that maybe my story could do more good if I was willing to accept the fact I made a less then informed choice, and now wish I could go back and not choose the sme way.
So now the only thing I defend is the pain aspect. Just because I feel it's wrong to assume every circumcised boy is in severe pain and anguish. But other then that I don't care to defend circumcision, it was the wrong choice for Eric, and I know it. I'm not ashamed anymore to say I c
Hose wrongly. I know we all choose badly sometimes, but I learned from it and now I can only hope to help other moms not make the same mistake.

Tara - posted on 03/03/2011

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The problem with the pro-circ argument is the reasoning behind it is based only on emotion and personal preference rather than on facts or medical evidence.
For us intactivists we have the facts and studies and literature to back us up. We have nature to back us up, nature intended boys to have a foreskin, or god or the creator or however you want to put it, bottom line, foreskin is important, and it is only religion and traditions that have kept the practice alive as long as it has been.
If it were based only medical need and science, it would have been relegated to the "rare" incident where it is actually medically required rather than still be something people do without need.

Krista - posted on 03/03/2011

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LadyJane, you might not have anything to explain, but you're contributing jack-squat to this debate.

All you've done is stubbornly reiterate that you will never change your mind, and that your family has this grand tradition of lopping off foreskins.

Well, yay for you.

The rest of us would just like to know why you are so blessedly entrenched in your opinion, to the point where you claim you will NEVER change your mind, regardless of what information becomes available.

And no, I suppose you're under no obligation to provide that information.

But you can't blame the rest of us for being baffled as hell by your attitude towards the whole thing.

Minnie - posted on 03/03/2011

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Uuuuugh no one is arguing that you don't have a legal right to sign off and have your children circumcised. What we are BEGGING of you is to provide some debatable material in your responses! Why join a debate to offer nothing of value to the discussion and just reiterate on and on and onnnnnnn.....that we won't change your mind?



You've not commented on the subject of the OP, you say you've done research and provide no evidence of that research and you don't even offer up any sort of reasoning as to why you are so adamantly supportive of the procedure.



What do you think you are offering to this debate?

LadyJane - posted on 03/03/2011

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I have nothing to explain to my son, not now or ever, It is my responsibility to make sure I make the right choices, NOT YOURS! My Cousin has performed over 5000 circumcisms and not one of her patients developed complications. She makes sure each child is done correctly. She treats each child as if they were her own. I've read all the facts, it still doesn't change my mind. I've read the statistics. My son is as safe as possible, If you do NOT think so then by all means CALL CPS on me. I dare you!!! My cousin performed his circumcism and did a great job on it. In fact my son never cried but instead smiled. She was shocked to say the least, but then she has done thousands of these and know exactly how to make sure the child is comfortable.

I can change my mind when I want to except when it is something that is important to me. I'm done in this thread. Anymore posts that use my name will not be read.

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